A Demonstration In Palestine

There was a demonstration in Palestine today you might not have heard about. (Click on images to open) Yahoo News links are freaking out. Allah has additional info here.

The mainstream media paid attention to anti-US, anti-Israel demonstrations in America this weekend. Groups like ANSWER, CAIR and others, along with their supporters and anti-war activists argue that the West is the problem; that the oppression of groups like Hezbollah and the Palestinians are the root cause of all the trouble in the Middle East.

The very public demonstration in Palestine, to which the mainstream media didn't pay much attention, perhaps not even showing it to you at all, is depicted below.

Palestinian gunmen identifying themselves as members of Islamic Jihad shot a man in a public square in the West Bank town of Jenin on Sunday Aug. 13, 2006. He was identified as Bassem Malah, 22, who worked in an Israeli Arab town. Click pictures or links for full image and captions.

The man was executed in front of hundreds of people. He was accused by the very gunmen who killed him of giving information to Israeli authorities. The information was said to have led to an attack on two other Islamic Jihad members. There were no hearings, no trial. And merely shooting him wasn't enough. One of the gunmen went on to kick the man's lifeless body as the crowd gathered and watched, many of them taking pictures. But the demonstration was very far from over.

One of the gunmen stood proudly over the man he had just murdered. Bassem Malah never had a trial, let alone any formal criminal charge, except that of betraying other armed gunmen of Islamic Jihad.

When they allowed the crowd closer, many of them took out their cell phones. They couldn't wait to take pictures of the dead 22 year old with their cell phones, jockeying for position like vultures over a carcass.

At one point an old woman dressed in white appeared at the scene of the murder. His Mother, perhaps?

No. She was the Mother of another member of Islamic Jihad who had been killed four years ago in a confrontation that had nothing to do with Bassem Malah, who would have been just 18 at the time. She was given the honor of stomping the dead young man's neck and head until the blood poured out onto the ground.

Apparently the Palestinians prefer a well-organized demonstration and one gunman was careful to position the body just so while abusing the corpse, perhaps for more cell phone pictures.

When the demonstration was over there was virtually nothing left of 22 year old Bassem Malah except his battered dead body which had been fully stomped into the ground.

Many naive Americans who are rarely given a clear picture of what goes on in the world of these so-called freedom fighters by the mainstream media allow themselves to be incited by groups like ANSWER, CAIR and others, taking to the streets to pronounce groups like Islamic Jihad noble freedom fighters. Perhaps if they were given an opportunity to watch a demonstration by those terrorists first hand, they wouldn't be so quick to pronounce America and Israel terrorist states. One can hope, anyway.

For extensive reports on the demonstrations in America this weekend, see here at Hot Air and also see The Age of Hooper for plenty more. Also look for more via Michelle Malkin.

Comments

[Elisabeth]

That kinda news is quite common here though. A few years back a Palestinian woman was executed in public for having a jewish boyfriend. Everybody got used to this, it seems. The Romans had the Colloseum, the Palestinians have other kind of "entertainment".

http://geocities.com/realtrueactuality/PalsKillingPals.html

[Full url: http://geocities.com/realtrueactuality/index.htm]

[rhodeymark]

Dan, thanks for the graphic depiction of jihad "justice". Maybe you would consider putting a sidebar link to stories like these that shouldn't go down the memory hole too easily? At least until jihad itself is stomped flat into the ground. You certainly have had some "greatest hits" lately.

[Phil]

So that we don't confuse people, there is no such place as Palestine.

[Katherine]

http://thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=797

Check this out. Lots of stuff !

[Beth]

Phil, I agree with you 100%.

[xxx]

I predict the Arabs arrested with the cell phones turns out to be NO CASE, nothing but some guys trying to make money. No terrorists, no plans to bomb anyone or anything.

A total over-reaction by local police becuase, you know, they're Arabs, Young Arab Men, with Many Cell Phones=Terrorist.

Just like the poor Arab surgeon in Oregan, when the FBI tried to pin the Madrid bombing on him even though he was never even in Spain and tried to use his kid's Spanish homework as "evidence" against him.

Arresting innocent people for something that nobody else would be arrested for doesn't help protect us from terrorists. If anything it will turn the majority of Arab Americans against their own country, make them less likely to cooperate and more likely to support terrorists.

Just like the big freak out over the Egyptian guys. They Are Not Terrorists, they are DumbAsses who blew off a college exchange program to make money. They don't deserve to get sent to the gulag, interrogated by Bushie's new methods or anything other than getting deported back to their home countries.

I mean, we are able to find a dozen Egyptions in a couple of weeks who as far as police and FBI say, aren't terrorists and werent' threats but we can't find millions upon milliions of Mexicans overrunning CA, AZ and Texas ?????

WTF.

But yeah, no shampoo for you lady.

[Jane]

thats really sickening

[EEprom]

"I predict the Arabs arrested with the cell phones turns out to be NO CASE, nothing but some guys trying to make money. No terrorists, no plans to bomb anyone or anything.

A total over-reaction by local police becuase, you know, they're Arabs, Young Arab Men, with Many Cell Phones=Terrorist.

Just like the poor Arab surgeon in Oregan, when the FBI tried to pin the Madrid bombing on him even though he was never even in Spain and tried to use his kid's Spanish homework as "evidence" against him.

Arresting innocent people for something that nobody else would be arrested for doesn't help protect us from terrorists. If anything it will turn the majority of Arab Americans against their own country, make them less likely to cooperate and more likely to support terrorists.

Just like the big freak out over the Egyptian guys. They Are Not Terrorists, they are DumbAsses who blew off a college exchange program to make money. They don't deserve to get sent to the gulag, interrogated by Bushie's new methods or anything other than getting deported back to their home countries.

I mean, we are able to find a dozen Egyptions in a couple of weeks who as far as police and FBI say, aren't terrorists and werent' threats but we can't find millions upon milliions of Mexicans overrunning CA, AZ and Texas ?????

WTF.

But yeah, no shampoo for you lady."

Posted by: xxx | Monday, August 14, 2006 at 09:37 AM

Thank God Idiots like you are not in charge of our security...you are one pathetic fool.

[xxx]

Wait and see. If there is evidence these guys are really terrorists then I will come here and take my medicine.

When the case falls apart and they downgrade the charges and have to admit there isnt' any evidence of any terrorist plot, I hope you all will do the same.

[old trooper]

Welcome to the Arab Street. This is exactly how Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas do "Business" to police their own ranks.

Get it?

BTW xxx, until you spend at least a year in the Middle East your posts are irrelevent and irresponsible. Knowing something about the subject first hand is priceless. Posting your opinions as fact and your bias as wisdom is worth one large handfull of rat droppings.

There is no western civilization "Sunday School" version that works there. If you don`t understand the mindset and culture you are wasting your time. The Arab Street is not anything that respects your rules or values. They have their own.

[chip]

Trooper:

i have been trying to learn & have appreciated some of the excellent commentary here @ RWV........

in your experience in the Middle East.....what kind of interaction did you have with the general population....?

i have a theory that most people are basically decent no matter race politics or religion....though it appears that the insanity we are seeing will only get worse as these folks train their children from the cradle...

anyway did you find in your experience that the average citizen actually has the same aspirations most of us do?...to live a productive live...care for their families etc?

thanks

[Marty]

Re the thousands of cell phones... after everyone is all lawyered up and dummies up and takes the Fifth there may very well not be enough evidence to prosecute, but that doesn't mean there's no connection, it just means we won't know one way or the other and probably never will. But even if that's the final story, arresting them and trying to find out what's going on was NOT an overreaction, a bunch of Arabs with thousands of cell-phones is sure as hell probable cause for a stop, and if you think that's profiling, well, it is, I'm not quite a total idiot.

[rwilymz]

"If there is evidence these guys are really terrorists then I will come here and take my medicine."

One of the statements by one of the guys arrested was to the effect that he was buying them for a third party and lamenting that he was "just doing his job" -- to buy thousands of untraceable phones for a third party who doesn't want to bother buying them himself, wholesale, for cheaper.

Y'know, when you add 2 and 2, you don't always immediately need to arrive at 4; sometimes it's enough to concede that you get a positive integer between 3 and 5.

This kid was, if I heard correctly, an all-state HS football player, with an education and prospects. So he falls for the first get-rich-quick scheme without checking on it; okay, he's a kid, being stupid is part of that. But he's undoubtedly smart enough to point up the chain to save his own ass. I would fully expect the feds to not prosecute him [for much] if he points well enough and often enough.

But 'x', 2+2 = a positive integer between 3 and 5, here. Stop grasping for rationalizations why up is really down.

[xxx]

Sure it is probable cause for a stop and for an investigation as well, sure it is suspicious. I never said otherwise. But it isn't enough for an arrest.

My question is did they jump the gun on the terrorist plot, I mean one cop is saying that he thinks they were going to blow up a bridge, is that because they had a freaking photo of the bridge? Again, like the Oregan surgeon's kids spanish homework was evidence of a spanish connection???!!!!

Does that mean if I go to Paris and take a photo of the Eifel tower that I must want to blow it up????????

You can't arrest people in America, or at least, you couldn't used to, for just conforming to a stereotype, whether or not that stereotype is based on fact.

If it had been some fat Italians from Jersey, would the cops arrested them and charged them with RICO violations? or some black kids in Crips colors would they have charged them with drug trafficking, cause you know, they 'must' be in a gang and drug dealers....

I haven't seen or heard anything close to EVIDENCE that these guys are anything but dumbasses who thought they could make a buck by bying a bunch of cell phones cheap and reselling them.

[Rick]

Well they had the chance to organise themselves as a functioning state but cannot. They can import cellphones but do little else but chatter and destroy anything that is living, break anything that is functioning, and attack anything that is not theirs.

Quite a record really. In the 50 years that South Korea moved from peasant living to industrial power, the 'Palestinians' have made every hovel worse and absorbed as much welfare as the EU and US can throw at them.

They are just locked in an endless loop going nowhere - they would be fine in parts of Africa

[rwilymz]

"I haven't seen or heard anything close to EVIDENCE that these guys are anything but dumbasses who thought they could make a buck by bying a bunch of cell phones cheap and reselling them."

Darn it all to heck! are the Feds still not putting you on the distribution list for evidentiary claims? I thought that was all straightened out last winter.

'

Hint, 'x', you -- as a member of the General Public, and despite how important you believe you are -- aren't likely to "see any evidence" until it comes out in court, either in trial, or during arraignment.

Whether or not *you* see evidence to warrant whatever is hugely irrelevant, and grossly arrogant on your part.

"You can't arrest people in America, or at least, you couldn't used to, for just conforming to a stereotype, whether or not that stereotype is based on fact."

Why do you believe they were arrested for "stereotype"? There's enough fact already, as you say, to be suspicious, and subsequent statements make it very damaging to the kids. Positive integer between 3 and 5...

[Karen]

That is disgusting. Fox News & CNN should be required to do a segment on TV and show the world what Israel has to live next to. These people are BARBARIC WITH A BIG B.
How disgusting. A public hanging needs to be done to the ones responsible for this.

How horrible this is. Not even human. I'M OUTRAGED !

[XXX]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14347754/

FBI says cell phone guys have NO LINK TO TERROR.

Nothing like ruining the lives of some arab college kids, tagging them as 'terrorists' so they can never get a decent job in the U.S. will always be looking over their shoulders for people like you, who think all arabs and muslims hate America.

This is what causes arabs to hate America. Do you think if one of these guys in the future ever sees anything in his own community that looks shady he's going to come forward? Fat chance.

[Purple Avenger]

I haven't seen or heard anything close to EVIDENCE that these guys are anything but dumbasses who thought they could make a buck by bying a bunch of cell phones cheap and reselling them.

Why were they stripping them out of the packaging then?

[xxx]

Stripping them out of packaging=terrorist plan to blow up bridge???

My god, this is ridiculous.

Gee, I wonder if maybe the pre-paid phones were going to be eventually resold to the Arab American community, who are now too paranoid to call their relatives back in the ME for fear that they will be labeled as terrorists, terrorist funders or terrorist sympathizers? Ya think.

Nah, that would be too obvious of an explanation.

I'm sorry, much of the stuff being done in the name of security is pure idioicy. It is now illegal to take photographs on the GW bridge. Hmmm, so a tourist or a local who wants to take a nice shot of NYC from the bridge can't do it. Of course, I suspect that a real terrorist might still be able to get a good shot of the bridge using a telephoto lense from either NYC or NJ, or simply surf the internet for the many photos and blueprints of the bridge that already exist.

But, no. It is Illegal to Take Photos Because That Makes Us Safer.

Just like it apparently makes us safer to have law abiding grandmothers and business people virtually strip searched and patted down like criminals Because That Makes Us Safer.

[Anti-Zionist Jew]

Savages? Animals? Oh, sorry this is not in your language, people. Maybe if they dropped 50 2-ton bombs on this collaborator, then maybe it would be more civilized and peaceful--Western style.

Dumbasses.

[xxxx]

It is pretty difficult to, you know, build an economy like South Korea when you don't have , ya know, a COUNTRY, or control of (a) land, (b) water, (c) infrastructure (d) electricity (e) roads (f) immigration (g) entry and exist.

See, that's why its called the "OCCUPIED" territories, cause it's occupied by the Israeli army and has been 'settled' by Israeli jews for the last 50 years.

It's also, you know, kind of hard to turn a profit when your olive groves keep getting demolished, your houses keep getting demolished and your farms keep getting confiscated for either security reasons or jewish settlers.

I don't know why I bother.

The equation is very simple. Israel will have peace when she gives the Palestinians control of the West Bank and Gaza, a state with borders fairly drawn that would enable self sufficiency and not de facto control of Israel of all the resources and infrastructure, when ALL the jewish settlers are removed and when a compromise is struck on Jerusalem and East Jerusalem, Israel will release its political prisoners [they've been kidnapping the elected Hamas representatives, nice]. The Palestinians will give up right of return for some type of compensation, they will recognize Israel's right to exist and they will pledge to stop any future terrorist actions against the Israeli state including investigation and prosecuting any violence against Israelis. Case Dismissed.

No justice. No peace.

[xxxx]

It is pretty difficult to, you know, build an economy like South Korea when you don't have , ya know, a COUNTRY, or control of (a) land, (b) water, (c) infrastructure (d) electricity (e) roads (f) immigration (g) entry and exist.

See, that's why its called the "OCCUPIED" territories, cause it's occupied by the Israeli army and has been 'settled' by Israeli jews for the last 50 years.

It's also, you know, kind of hard to turn a profit when your olive groves keep getting demolished, your houses keep getting demolished and your farms keep getting confiscated for either security reasons or jewish settlers.

I don't know why I bother.

The equation is very simple. Israel will have peace when she gives the Palestinians control of the West Bank and Gaza, a state with borders fairly drawn that would enable self sufficiency and not de facto control of Israel of all the resources and infrastructure, when ALL the jewish settlers are removed and when a compromise is struck on Jerusalem and East Jerusalem, Israel will release its political prisoners [they've been kidnapping the elected Hamas representatives, nice]. The Palestinians will give up right of return for some type of compensation, they will recognize Israel's right to exist and they will pledge to stop any future terrorist actions against the Israeli state including investigation and prosecuting any violence against Israelis. Case Dismissed.

No justice. No peace.

[rwilymz]

"This is what causes arabs to hate America."

Then what caused it in 1784?

The US has been an Arab punching bag ever since.

"It is pretty difficult to, you know, build an economy like South Korea when you don't have , ya know, a COUNTRY, or control of (a) land, (b) water, (c) infrastructure (d) electricity (e) roads (f) immigration (g) entry and exist."

a] Pal-Arabs HAD the land in 1948, and roughly 3x the land the Jews had. What'd they do with this land? they mortgaged it to wage a war.
b] they had access to just as much water as anyone else
c] they had, INarguably, significantly much more infrastructure than the Jews, since the Pal-Arabs inheritted virtually all of the British improvements on the thousand-year Ottoman reich...
d] ...including electricity
e] ...and roads
f] with the sovereignty they were granted in 1948 they would have had control of immigration...
g ...and entry and exit.

But they started war[s] instead, and lost them. And boo hoo hoo, now they need the first do-over in history.

"kind of hard to turn a profit when your olive groves keep getting demolished, your houses keep getting demolished and your farms keep getting confiscated"

Which came first, the demolished olive groves? or the Pal-Arab war to drive Israel into the sea?

...the demolished houses? or the Pal-Arab war to drive Israel into the sea?

...the confiscated farms? or the Pal-Arab war to drive Israel into the sea?

*I* don't know why you bother, either. You're arguing a ridiculous claim, that the Pal-Arabs are the first people in the history of ever to get a do-over.

"The equation is very simple. Israel will have peace when she gives the Palestinians ..."

The Pal-Arabs were given exactly that in 1948, and what happened? Evidence is not on your side.

[xxx]

Unfortunately for Israel, living with several million angry, poor and radicalized Palestinians next door, winning the rhetorical argument that if the Palestinians had acted differently then things would be different doesn't help their real world security needs.

We didn't have to give back Japan or Germany, but we did.

Israel doesn't HAVE TO do anything, Israel can keep on settling Jews on the West Bank forever in the hope that sooner or later the Palestinians will give up, Israel can annex the occupied territories and redraw the Israeli map, of course that would, presumably give the Palestinians Israeli citizenship, turning it into a non Jewish state.

It is in Israel's best interest to resolve the Palestinian issue and move on. Period.

[xxx]

PS,

They droopped the terrorist charges against the Ohio cell phone "terrorists" and the FBI and Texas State Police say there is no evidence the Texas guys were terrorists or planning to attack any bridge....

Hmmm, I would swear someone just yesterday predicted that these were totally bogus charges, with no evidence except that Young Arab Males=Terrorist.

I would say, thanks to a bunch of hick cops that many more Arabs have increased distrust of the U.S., fear of our government and you know, sympathy for the real terrorists.

Congrats, a job well done.

Lives ruined, manpower expended, prejudices solified. Meanwhile, the real terrorists are somewhere laughing their asses off and we continue to play right into their hands.

[rwilymz]

"It is in Israel's best interest to resolve the Palestinian issue and move on. Period."

This is a significantly different argument, and one that is not really objectionable. Congratulations on eschewing rhetorical claptrap for a simple stating of the problem.

Of course it's in everyone's best interest to have the thing "resolved". The hard part is: how. Everything Israel's tried has failed, and not really because Israel caused it to fail. '48 ended with the Truce of '49, and the Israelis did their best to avoid Pal_arabs, only to have virtually the entire Arab world re-48 them in '67.

Leaving them alone doesn't work.

'67 ended by kicking the trouble-makers completely out of the old Partition land, and they squatted elsewhere and made trouble from outside -- again.

Expelling them doesn't work.

Camp David and Oslo ceded Pal-Arabs considerable autonomy over themselves in the West Bank and Gaza, and the autonomy was used to wage Intifada.

Giving them self-rule doesn't work.

Sharon "capitulated" by expelling Jewish settlers from Gaza, as Israel had agreed, effectively ceding the land that the Land4Peaceniks keep clamoring for, and the result was the border raid on Israel.

Giving them land in hope for peace doesn't work.

...Who's your favorite Ambassador? Benjamin Disraeli?

Alright, Mr Disraeli, all the classical methods of acquiring peace without bloodshed have proven to not work. It is the perfect demonstration of psychosis to believe it will work the second time when it failed the first time. How -- without advertising mental illness -- do we get Israel to "resolve" the issue and move on?

...the non-bloodshed methods don't work ... Show us the way, Mr Disraeli.

[xxx]

Maybe Israel should try the one thing they haven't done yet: give them a FAIR deal, a workable deal, not the crap put forth at Oslo that anyone with half a brain who wasn't drenched in Israeli propaganda knew would never and could never be accepted or sold to the Palestinian people.

If you give the Palestinians a state, with a map that isn't drawn specifically to make it impossible to govern, sufficient monetary and administrative aid to build a governing infrastructure, a few years to make some mistakes and get things righted and THEN they fuck it up, okay, fine. Game over.

If the Israelis had stuck with the intent, timetable and spirit of Oslo, instead of missing deadlines backtracking and refusing to even agree to stop new settlements...please?... we would all be in a different place today. A much, much better place.

[rwilymz]

"Lives ruined, manpower expended, prejudices solified."

Whose lives were "ruined"?

That manpower is designed to be expended in that way.

The only prejudices I see being solidified are the ones who holds that The West are incompetent, quasi-racist boobs. And that'd be ... your prejudice.

And we still have a positive integer between 3 and 5, same as yesterday and the day before. So don't go claiming "you knew all along" because you didn't. You're bound to be right once more today -- just like all stopped clocks. It doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

"Meanwhile, the real terrorists are somewhere laughing their asses off and we continue to play right into their hands."

If you're trying to ping the TSA for getting all paranoid about hair gel and bottled water, fall in line behind me.

[rwilymz]

"If the Israelis had ... faux-pious sanctimoniousness deleted ... we would all be in a different place today."

Ah, right. The "it'd be different now because 2+2 used to equal 5" argument.

Israel isn't the one who used Oslo as a cover for border raids. That'd be your best buds: Pal-Arabs. When EVERYbody misses "timetables" and you can only see it when it's the Israelis, then you haven't got an honest input into what "fair" means, and therefore no right to criticize.

You haven't quite got the knack for honesty yet. Keep working at it.

[xxx]

No, police and FBI manpower is not to be used on clearly dumb, bogus and hugely 'rush to conclusion' charges. They shouldn't have been charged with anything until the investigation was complete.

Once upon a time in America, we investigated, and then charged. You remember, probable cause, due process, innocent until proven guilty. We didn't throw the bums in jail and then investigate afterward.

Ha, these guys should be glad they are American citizens or they would be naked, hanging from the ceiling in a secret CIA gulag right now instead of a county jail, shortly to be released.

Hmmm, I wonder, how George Bush's new Non Article 3 Compliant interrogation methods would have worked on some Arab American college kids? I wonder if those college kids, after a few days naked, in a nice 'stress position' might have admitted they were part of a 1,000 man strong terrorist cell, they hated America and worshiped Bin Laden as a god? I wonder how long they would have lasted being forced to deficate in their clothes before "confessing" to being terrorists?

TSA is a total f***g joke, from beginning to end. Strip search grandma. I saw a freaking 10 year old girl getting a pat down? Are you kidding me? A 10 year old girl traveling with her mom somewhere? They admitted today that putting the shoes through the x ray machine doens't detect any explosives? Well, um, why are we doing it? And now their great idea is to interogate passengers to see if they act suspicious? I don't give a f***k if they ban carry on' except for the fact, that since TSA said you can't lock your checked luggage theft by airport personnel have skyrocked to you have to be able to carry on some of your valuables like cameras, etc. or they will get stolen by the security thugs.

I can tell you that every time I fly I am reduced to a nervous wreck for fear that I am going to get a strip search pat down public humiliation, so, I guess that 'nervousness' would make me suspicious looking?

[xxx]

Lives ruined?

Question: Have you ever been convicted or charged with a felony?

Answer: Yes, money laundering in support of terrorism and providing support for acts of terrorism. But the charges were dropped.

Gee, do you think he's going to get the job?

[rwilymz]

"police and FBI manpower is not to be used on clearly dumb, bogus and hugely 'rush to conclusion' charges"

What charges? You have to have charges before you have a "rush to conclusion" with them.

So what charges? "Suspicion" isn't a "charge"; it is a justification for holding.

"They shouldn't have been charged with anything until the investigation was complete."

What. Were. They. Charged. With?

How do you investigate someone on suspicion of aiding terrorism without holding them?

Can't complete an investigation without the people being investigated.

You're new to this, aren't you?

"Once upon a time in America, we investigated, and then charged."

And how is that different from what happened?

"probable cause"

Met. Thousands in cash, hundreds of phones, incriminating statements...

"due process"

Followed.

"innocent until proven guilty"

Who is considering them guilty of anything?

"We didn't throw the bums in jail and then investigate afterward."

Uh ... frequently that's exactly what happens. Mary Winkler, the preacher's wife from Selmer TN, is currently sitting in jail -- even though she's posted bond -- while the authorities are investigating. They already have her statements, they already have virtually all the physical evidence they could hope to get ... yet she's in jail. What's left to investigate? Yet, until trial, that's what it's called.

She hasn't been convicted, yet she's still in jail. And considered innocent. By everyone, even the police.

Do you have ANY comprehension of how the legal system works?

"I guess that 'nervousness' would make me suspicious looking?"

No moreso than your unbelievable stupidity.

"Question: Have you ever been convicted or charged with a felony?"

More evidence that you're a child, or at least that you've been living in your parents' basement since graduation: you've apparently never been to a job interview. They can't ask you if you've been arrested for or charged with a felony. They can only ask you if you've been convicted.

OJSimpson is even safe from such a question.

So have they been convicted of anything?

No? So who's lives have been ruined?

[mylena]

Mary winkler innocent? I thought she confessed?

[rwilymz]

Oops, many pardons, Mary Winkler was just released -- after posting bond several days ago.

hmmmmm ... maybe they thought she was a terrorist too...

[mylena]

I must be confused why is she innocent?

[xxx]

They have BEEN CHARGED YOU MORON.

The Ohio prosecutor is DROPPING THE CHARGES and the Michigan guys are still in jail on 750,000 bond having been CHARGED with several counts of terrorism.

If you don't see the difference between a woman arrested for murder with ample physical and testimonial evidence suggesting guilt and some young arab males arrested based on nothing but being arab males with a bunch of cash and cell phones then you are a total fucking idiot.

having a lot of cash doesn't make you a terrorist.
taking pictures of historic bridges doesn't make you a terrorist.
using and celling pre paid cell phones doesn't make you a terrorist
being an arab male doens't make you a terrorist.

being an arab male with a lot of pre paid cell phones a photo of a historic bridge on his camera and a lot of cash doens't make him a terrorist.

you need evidence that he is a terrorist to charge him with being a terrorist, we don't detain people because they 'might be' terrorists but because we have evidence that they are terrorists, but see, that was pre Bush/pre War on Terror, apparently, now we do.

And if Bush had his way these guys wouldn't even have been put into jail or given lawyers, they would have been spirited off to the gulag for a private interrogation of a couple of years with no info. to their families on where they were or what the charges were...look what happened with that damm liberal supreme court, I mean now we have to let these guys go????????????????? just because there isnt' any evidence they are terrorists, I mean, who needs evidence, they're arabs, it's only a matter of time.

[mylena]

well that would be interested you murder someone and you are already found innocent?!!! rwiles could you please explain ?

[rwilymz]

Mylena: Mary Winkler is considered innocent because she hasn't been convicted. A court of law does not determine "innocence"; it determines "guilt". The pleas are "guilty" or "not guilty"; when the jury [or judge, in non-jury trials] returns a verdict, it is "guilty" or "not guilty". Not "innocent".

'x' needs to calm down:
"They have BEEN CHARGED YOU MORON."

Then why are you complaining?

Particularly about due process, since that's what's required.

"If you don't see the difference between a woman arrested for murder with ample physical and testimonial evidence suggesting guilt and some young arab males arrested based on nothing but being arab males with a bunch of cash and cell phones then you are a total fucking idiot."

If they were charged, then "being male arabs with cash and cell phones" isn't it. Is it?

There isn't "nothing", is it?

"you need evidence that he is a terrorist to charge him with being a terrorist"

If there are charges, then apparently they have evidence. Did they not clear that evidence with you? Shame; I don't recall that they're required to.

Did they not divulge that evidence to the public? Don't recall that they're required to do that either.

"if Bush had his way these guys wouldn't even have been put into jail or given lawyers..."

And you say that because ... you don't know what you're talking about but damn! it sure sounds good, and you don't like Bush, so whatever inane things you can make up to accuse Bush of wanting, you'll make it up?

What do I win?

"look what happened with that damm liberal supreme court, I mean now we have to let these guys go?"

HAHAHA. Hardly. We have to treat them like POWs even though the law defining POWs specifically excludes them. But it doesn't mean we have to let them go.

What it means is this:
1] POWs get no attorneys -- so they lose their attorneys
2] POWs can be imprisoned indefinitely, until the cessation of hostilities -- so we get to hold them until the Taliban stops shooting at us in A'stan [i.e., they won't ever leave Gitmo if we don't want them to, which means that many of them will die as old, old men in US custody], and
3] if we want to charge them with being a terrorist Congress has to write a law that specifically criminalizes specific actions as "terrorism" -- at which point they get lawyers for their military tribunal.

[xxx]

Oh. My. God.

The guys in Ohio were charged, what yesterday?
Today the charges were dropped for lack of evidence.

Now, did the evidence of terrorism disappear? Is the prosecutor himself a terrorist sympathizer?

Or, maybe, the "evidence" never existed in the first place, the police and local hick prosecutor charged these guys with being terrorists and the FBI, kind of surprisingly considering their crap record of false terrorism arrests, had to tell them, there isn't any evidence of terrorism. In other words, there was never evidence of terrorism in the first place and the charges were BOGUS, just.like.i.said.

It's kind of like the Duke rape case. There isn't a shred of evidence that any rape or any sex of any kind, let alone forced sex took place, and yet, a trial is in the works.

This is an abuse of the system.

HOW CAN AMERICAN CITIZENS BE CONSIDERED PRISONERS OF WAR?????? THESE ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS, HELLO. BORN IN AMERICA, GOING TO AMERICAN COLLEGES. The Bush Government Asserted the Right to Detail an American Citizen seized in America Without Access to a Lawyer and Without Charges for an Indefinite Period of Time. Not foreign fighters captured in Afaganistant you fucking boob. Or did you forget that case, buddy?

OKAY, THAT'S IT YOU ARE A MORON I AM DONE HERE FOR THE LAST TIME.

[mylena]

oh but i thought you said everyone knows she is innocent ??? So i thought you think she really is innocent? is that what you mean? In any case the bond was pretty high so maybe it was not immediate to be paid ? but well any murderer/pedophile or crazy person is sort of scary to have them walking around... so i'm happy they set it so high.

[rwilymz]

"i thought you said everyone knows she is innocent "

Everyone -- well, the legal system -- *considers* her innocent. And will, right up until she's convicted. To the crime she's already admitted to committing.

=====================================================

"The guys in Ohio were charged, what yesterday?"

Oh, so you're equivocating "held on suspiscion" with "charged". I see. [actually, i saw before, but it's fun to pull the wings off flies and burn ants with magnifying glasses]

"Today the charges were dropped for lack of evidence."

Or something, anyway, right?

You seem very very confused.

"HOW CAN AMERICAN CITIZENS BE CONSIDERED PRISONERS OF WAR?"

In America? By taking part in acts of war against America.

It's been done before, and will undoubtedly be done again.

"The Bush Government Asserted the Right to Detail an American Citizen seized in America Without Access to a Lawyer and Without Charges for an Indefinite Period of Time."

And if they were captured in hostile action against US forces, that's what they'd be.

Are you now talking about, whozit? Padilla? The guy who was accused of being part of a terrorist plot, and therefore the internmational law applied and not US law?

The Administration claim is a valid legal claim: terrorism doesn't not have a formal "field of battle"; the "field of battle" is where ever the terrorist is, so therefore where ever he is captured is the field of battle. Hence, captured combatant, no attorney, held until end of hostilities. A valid loyyerly argument.

That said, it's not one the courts bought ["valid" =/= "what the courts like"; virtually every case has two valid arguments; only one of them wins]. Since Padilla didn't actually carry out any acts of war, he can't be captured pursuant to and held pursuant to "hostile action"; if he was captured **short of** hostile action, then his capture must be pinioned upon some other legal claim, and that legal claim must be made where/how the legal claim has merit -- in a court of law.

Wanna capture Americans and treat them as POWs? wait until they actually commit war against the US. And again: it's been done before and it'll be done again.

[xxx]

Padulla was captured at an airport, no?

Is that a hostile action against a US Force? What force would that be? TSA? The stewardesses?

And, please, spare me the asinine 'airports as international territory' claim that Bushco. came up with to justify their pathetic position.

How convenient that the 'field of battle' can be anywhere, thus, anyone that is accused by the government of being a terrorist anywhere at any time can be sent to the gulag without a lawyer or charges or seeing 'evidence' for as long as the government sees fit.

I got news for you, that makes us a police state, not a democracy. Period.

You may trust the government to never, ever make mistakes about who is a terrorist and who isn't and believe that the government would never, ever wrongly send an innocent person to the gulag or wrongly detain anyone or wrongly charge anyone with terrorism or let anyone who they didn't have evidence against languish in a secret gulag or wrongly 'interrogate but not torture' anyone.

But I don't. In fact, everything in history would tell you that it is inevitable, given that type of all encompassing power, that it will be abused, that innocent people will be detained and tortured.

[rwilymz]

"Is that a hostile action against a US Force? What force would that be?"

Will you READ what I wrote? I said it was NOT what the administration claimed it to be.

This is your standard bullshit kneejerk denunciation of anynody who da-a-a-a-res to know more about the subject than you do.

I'm terribly sorry that you're a puny little ignoramus who gets information from the backs of cereal boxes you take downw to your parents' basement, but there ***are*** some people in the world who DO know what they're talking about, and you'd do yourself a huge favor by listening to them.

[Josh]

WE AMERICANS WOULD DO THE SAME THING TO JOHNNY WALKER LINDH IF WE GOT OUR HANDS ON HIM, MR. AMERICAN TALIBAN SO IN THIS CASE I THINK THE PALESTINIANS PROBABLY DID THE SAME WHAT AMERICANS WOULD DO IF WE CAUGHT A SPY AND THERE WAS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT