Oh, Please, Allow Me

Andrew Sullivan:

I doubt whether even Donald Rumsfeld will describe what has been done to two young American soldiers as a "coercive interrogation technique." But you never know. Some people wonder why I remain so concerned about torture, and the surrender of our moral standing with respect to this unmitigated evil. Maybe the news of captured, tortured and murdered Americans will jog their conscience. Or maybe it will simply reinforce the logic of torture-reciprocity endorsed by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzales. As usual, complete silence from Instapundit. Almost radio silence from the Corner, except for the torture-advocate, Mark Levin, who is urging reciprocal atrocities. Give him points for consistency. And so the cycle of depravity and defeat deepens ...

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if some folks saw Sullivan's post as unworthy of a response. And it's unclear what it is that needs be said by anyone, other than how terribly sad a day today is, even without the usual suspects determined to see every tragic event as simply more fodder for the political grist mill.

I'd also suggest that silence is a much better memorial to two fallen warriors than the ugly prose from Sullivan. But I will at least respond as appropriately as I can.

Asshole!

Update: A more well thought out response to Sullivan from another Dan.

 

Comments

[Captain Joe]

Why is it you never hear anything from the MS Media about the Geneva Convention when it comes to the treatment of captured US troops?

[jrdroll]

Andrew might like that response.

[Joe]

Actually, I'd like to hear what you have to say to his very valid point: if we torture or act negligently towards evidence of torture, won't it encourage terrorists to torture too? They may not need much, but still the point has merit.

[Cro]

Joe said "if we torture or act negligently towards evidence of torture, won't it encourage terrorists to torture too?"

Perhaps you haven't caught the news in the last several years, Joe, but Islamic pig-humpers have never required an excuse for torturing and beheading people who they disagree with.

The only thing our in-action does is to encourage them. to-wit 9-11.

As for me, I side with Levin. We should evacuate the city of everyone that wishes to leave...and then flatten it completely... the same as the Israelis did with Quneitra.

[alcibiades]

The point is, they don't actually need the encouragement. That's their standard of behavior. It's the media and certain blog personalities which suggests its only done in reciprocity.

[brett]

It is absurd to say that jihadists only torture because we do. It is beyond absurd -- it marks the speaker as a fundamentally unserious thinker.

[Skeptical Republican]

Abu Ghraib endangered and made far more difficult the mission in Iraq. Sullivan's argument against coercive force is not wrong (McCain is right on this issue). But Sullivan seems more concerned with baiting Glenn Reynolds and Jonah Goldberg than influencing policy. Why am I starting to think that Sullivan hopes for bad news in Iraq, just as long as it damages George Bush and proves Sullivan right. I agree the President is far than perfect, but I want to win this war--and we would have been more #*%! if Al Gore or John Kerry was in charge.

[chris]

somehow I doubt those poor troops were merely sleep deprived, or had heavy metal played at loud volumes. But Sullivan isn't one to let a few mangled bodies get in the way of a rhetorical flourish.

[GetReal]

Sullivan is a fool and a tool. The pattern of Islamic beheadings and torture is widespead across several continents. Sullivan would have us believe it is all the fault of the US?

[psyguy]

Evil is as evil does. I see the bastards who tortured our guys in the same light as those in our government that condone torture. We're not going to win the islamic allies we need to ferret out terrorists if we behave no better than they do. The war on terror is about ideology and press coverage. When we react in "like-kind" it plays into our enemies' hands.

[Dan]

"I see the bastards who tortured our guys in the same light as those in our government that condone torture".

So you see those who don't torture anyone as the same as those who torture people to death?

[sean]

Joe, what are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the reason that 3000 people were burned and crushed to death in their offices in front of my eyes is something we did? You disgust me.

[Ian S.]

Just remember the Sullivan Mantra: "He's taking this position solely out of spite motivated by Bush's position on gay marriage". It really deflates his arguments quickly.

[Korla Pundit]

Comparing sleep deprivation to what Al Qaeda does to our soldiers is simply beneath contempt. Andrew, you jumped the shark a long time ago.

[Korla Pundit]

Hey, let's adopt the Islamist policy on gay marriage. Now what was it again: throwing from a high building, or crushing with a toppled brick wall? I can't remember. Andrew?

[Catherine]

I don't know how anyone can compare the "torture" by the dimwits of abu ghrab and this. The moral equivalence is disgusting.

In fact, Andrew Sullivan and all who think like him, the only people who "outraged" over suggested torture (sleep deprivation and rap music at guantanmo and the humiliation at abu ghrab) are the Western media. What they qualify as torture the islamists do not. It is the Western media that make EXCUSES for the brutal beheadings, etc. They are never held to account by the fools like Sullivan (who as a gay man, should be the last person to defend the actions of the bastards who committed these crimes).

No prisoner has ever been without medical attention, proper diet (an islamic diet no less), bathing, proper bedding, etc. PLEASE quit with the rationalization!! Even with Moussoui we didn't desecrate his body, drag it through the streets or dump it in a roadside.

Anyone who thinks this is deserved or "they had it coming," is mentally ill and incapable of reason.

[Rick]

"Actually, I'd like to hear what you have to say to his very valid point: if we torture or act negligently towards evidence of torture, won't it encourage terrorists to torture too? They may not need much, but still the point has merit.

Posted by: Joe"

You folks are being too hard on Joe. Maybe he's only 8-9 years old and has not heard the news over the past 30 odd years. Maybe he doesn't know about Israeli atheletes being murdered in Munic, maybe he never heard of Achille Lauro or dozens of plane hijackings which went on years and years ago. As far back as when Iraq was still called Persia. It's a good point assuming you're dealing with human beings with a modicum of mercy. These don't care what you think, they are called terrorists because they terrorize people. One way to terrorize people is to brutally torture the defensless. Maybe we should decry the sense of fair play that caused these troops to think they could surrender and be safe. We sure arent going to level the area for a square mile around where they were found, are we? Too bad the MSM is so totally weak and hateful.........they could hold thiese murders up as a perfect example of what torture REALLY is. Far different than having to wear panties on your head.

[jayhawk]

You've got to wonder why Sullivan is so obsessed with depicting Reynolds' opinions as some kind of a Neanderthal cartoon show. Also, I'm not a big fan of the Bush administration but Sullivan's criticisms of Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc., are inane and influenced by his apparently turbulent emotional state.

I think Sullivan became really pissed at Reynolds around the same time Reynolds eclipsed him in blogger fame, not to mention quality of writing and discourse. Sullivan's polemics are cheap and vile. It follows that the quality of his interior personality would be very similar.

Sullivan stopped being an objective thinker years ago and, for whatever reason, turned into an overwrought cheapshot artist. I wish Glenn Reynolds would do what I did years ago and just delete Sullivan's blog from his bookmarks. Sometimes people change. Sometimes they change for the worse, as in Sullivan's case. There's no point in fussing about it. Ignore him and move on.

[wjo]

Sullivan ---in his own mind---has played the role of prophet in the wilderness on the horror of "torture" and its impairment of American credibility. I use scare quotes because I never have been able to comprehend his definition. He always appears on the verge of tears in describing our "inhumane" treatment of the brutes our fighting men and women have taken prisoner.

Andrew, old darling, war is, in the end, a contest of wills. Who prevails is he who convinces the other of the futility of carrying on the fight.

It is the aim of our enemy to frighten us. Hence the beheading and torture videos of our enemies. Hence his callousness with the lives of innocents. His message is: "See how I am, my will must be obeyed for me to stop."

By international law and convention, we were entitled to execute these persons summarily. That they live is interpreted by our foes as a sign of our weakness. That they live and are treated with mercy and any undeserved modicum of civility shows in concrete form to the world that we wear the white hats in this fight. All those who fail to see this are willfully blind.

One may only hope that the reports of these soldiers' torture is false. If true, may it remind the self-appointed consciences of the nation that the moral differences between our enemies and us is a vast gulf. May it also fill fellow Americans with resolve to see our enemies destroyed.

[don surber]

These people torture regardless of our actions

[Richard M.]

Excuse me but we have tortured people to death. Those of you who condone torture, for any reason, are torturers. If you want moral relativity just admit you've given up Christian absolutism and lower yourselves to whatever level suits your outrage. As for myself, I think I'll pass on torturing.

[Guvnah]

I assume Sullivan had a more thorough copy of the press release than what I saw.

Evidently the bodies of our fallen soldiers indicated that they had been held in air-conditioned rooms for too long... or they had bags under their eyes indicating sleep deprivation... abrasions on their hands and wrists from being shackled, perhaps? Maybe Al Qaeda didn't let them use the restroom for a long time... No, the Army must've discovered fake menstrual blood on their uniforms. That's probably it. Or maybe they actually committed suicide, succumbing to the netherworld of despair of not knowing when they would be released from their indefinite captivity.

Becuase really, that's just the kind of treatment we're asking for with our own policies.

[wjo]

Richard M., prove what you say. Show where "we" have tortured people to death. I wait in my Christian absolutism as I prepare to flush a copy of the Koran.

[Theo]

I decided I'd had enough of Sullivan on the day Zarqawi died. Sullivan started peddling the Defeaticrat talking points of the day, that Zarqawi was largely a creation of Bush propaganda and his death doesn't mean much. Sullivan claimed he'd been hearing this for a long time, yet somehow he only posted about it the day Zarqawi died and some Lefty blogs felt the need to spin Zarqawi as no big deal because they were worried it made Bush look good. Before that, Sullivan always presented Zarqawi as al Qaeda's "#2."

The next time I visited Sullivan's blog he was praising Bill Maher's views on the war. I've tuned in to Maher's program a few times and each time Maher has gone on about how Arabs as a people do not want democracy (apparently due to their race) and that he's only half-kidding when he says Iraq would be better off with Saddam back in power. What a guy.

I recently stopped reading him all together. When I wanna know about Guantanomo Bay I listen to people who've actually visited there, thanks every much. Every time he gets into one of his self-righteous tizzies I think about what would be going on in Iraq had America followed his advice and elected John Kerry. I'll never forget Kerry scheduling himself on Meet The Press the Sunday after the first Iraq election, the election the NY Times was saying should be called off. Kerry clearly expected the election to be a complete failure and bloodbath and scheduled himself to talk about what that. Instead, Kerry found himself sitting there with nothing to say. The message to me was clear: If Kerry had been Prez, the elections would've been delayed. Today we know if Kerry were Prez we'd be pulling out of Iraq before the job is done.

Sullivan doesn't care about this. If Sullivan's advice had been followed, Iraq wouls be lost and its people would be at the mercy of Zarqawi, but hey, he'd be able to blog about what a failure Bush is! Sullivan decided he hated Bush when Bush hurt his feelings by not backing gay marriage, and as a result Sullivan is currently betraying the very war he urged America to enter into. I find the way Sullivan betrayed the war he supported as proof it is he who is morally screwed up. Unless...was Sullivan ignorant enough to think war was a picnic?

Today Sullivan leaps on everything he can to smear people, including Marines risking their lives for him (see his post about the Marine song, where he lept so excitedly to paint our soldiers as monsters that he didn't even get the lyrics right). He should either be ignored, or the gloves should come off and he should be smacked around the blogosphere like he deserves.

[Richard]

"AMERICAN ARMY INTERNAL REPORTS detailing the conditions under which two Afghan prisoners were beaten to death in December 2002 in Baghram prison, north of Kabul, demonstrate, according to the human rights defense organization Human Rights Watch, that the use of torture was systematic in Afghanistan."

The caps are mine in order to show this isn't about accusations by the Human Rights Watch but about US Army internal reports. So maybe while practicing a "Christian Absolutism" that allows you to desecrate another's religious texts, you can ask yourself that tired old question, "Who would Jesus torture?"

[tcobb]

I don't think we're going to hear many more allegations of Iraqi prisoners being tortured by our military. I strongly suspect that the number of prisoners taken by the military will soon hit an all time low. Since torture has been redefined down to the level of anything that would cause the poor jihadis any discomfort at all, there simply is no reason to make any effort to take them alive. Its far safer just to use overwhelming lethal force sufficient to ensure that the probability of there being any survivors is virtually nil. And after this little stunt, I suspect there will be little desire to do anything else.

Those idiots wanted to do this for the symbolism involved. It certainly worked, but not in a way that they thought it did. Its kind of like here in the US. If you commit a murder the cops will hunt for you. But if the murder victim was a cop, they will come down after you like the hammer of God. It is one thing to kill a soldier in open battle, and quite another to kill a captive who is incapable of resisting you. I suspect that whatever merciful impulses our troops might have been inclined to show these scum has gone with the wind.

[J]

Terrorists torture whoever, they don't need the excuses of Guantanamo. They even torture Iraqi victims and what do they have to do with Gitmo. Naturally, Andrew Sullivan is part of the pack that will blame America first. It will always be, "Its our fault. We are little Eichmanns."

[Rick]

"Who would Jesus torture?"
So for all of your Christian proselatizing (sp) you haven't actually READ the Bible. Try it after Al Franken goes off, you'll find several references to the torture chamber the Jihadists are looking for virgins in.

Then you might want to re-read those internal memos for the actual culprits. Still, it is actually true that "we" have tortured prisoners to death. My God, read "80 acres of hell" about what the Union did to Confederate prisoners. Of course, the few atrocities which "we" are actually guilty of are hardly national policy.

[tcobb]

"Who would Jesus torture?"

I am not really religious, but so far as I understand it, Jesus' Daddy runs a big torture chamber called Hell, and so far as I know, Jesus had no problems with that. And then again, there is a story about Jesus running money lenders out of a temple, which might easily fit within Andrew Sullivan's amorphous definition of torture. After all, it probably wounded their self-esteem and made them feel bad about themselves.

[megapotamus]

Sullivan is a hysteric and a moron. He was a moron when he was for the war and he is now that he is against it, or whatever his position is this afternoon. Newsflash for that jackass and many another. The US does NOT torture. IF anyone tortures under color of US authority they get brought up on charges. For this numbnut who, if the jihadis had there way would perish in the most horrible manner, to assert that what goes on at Guantanamo is torture is a lie from a man who owes his very life to better men than he could ever hope to be. Better men that he slanders and maligns at every opportunity. What a puny minded soulless scrub. If Sullivan wants a viable definition of "torture" and he is in desperate need of same, I suggest The Republic of Fear and/or Unholy Babylon or any of a number of Commie memoirs. Sleep depro and psy manipulations ARE NOT TORTURE, idiot! Oh, and these guys are NOT prisoners of war either. They are unlawful combatants, a specie of bad guy explicitly enunciated in the Geneva Conventions and according to that definition they may justly be shot on apprehension. Anything short of that is gravy.

[Richard M.]

I have always found assumtions made about people based on three or four sentences to be the product of a lazy mind. I have never listened to Al Franken, not once. I have read the Bible numerous times. Each of us takes from the Bible that which tends to support views already held, be they bigotry or pacifism. I personally find the idea of a God who would place someone in infinite pain for an infinite amount of time to be at odds with Jesus' teachings. But that's me. Still, my religion doesn't allow me to torture. If your's does, and you are at peace with that, then torture away. Just expect me to do what I can to dissuade you.

[IMHERE]

Creeps me out reading that Sullivan guy.

[Richard M.]

Two points and then I am gone never to return. Megapotamus, if sleep deprivation and psy manipulation are not torture, may I borrow a couple of your children? Adults only. I have this aquaintance see.......
Why is it commentators on blogs feel that name calling is the heighth intellectual discourse?

[Rick]

Richard this is going to be a real shocker to you but Jesus IS God and he referenced hell many times. Be that as it may. I do not see anyone advocating acting like these animals. I do see people pointing out stark constrasts of the difference between torture and harrassment. Dragging someone behind a car is torture sir, forcing them to listen to rap music, though cruel, is harrassment. Personally, I consider being forced to wear panties on my head to be play time........you may not. As far as flushing a "religious text", that's just rude but leaves no scars. John McCain is an authority on torture. I've read his (and the others) stories. I also actually knew a man who survived the Bataan death march and an old woman with numbers tattooed on her arm. I also spent a little time rescuing people from the Khmer Rouge. No, I would never advocate any human being be tortured. I simply know the difference. I also understand what it really takes to "subdue" this kind of insurgency and we are not up to the task.

[Chandler]

Just added your site to my favorites, you are my new hero!

[Wonder]

I wonder what the Kurds have to say about those that torture in Iraq? Maybe this is something new? Just used for infidels?

[Joe]

Notice I said "they may not need it much"? Obviously, the terrorists are brutal. But by not keeping our noses clean, we supply them with a weapon they use against us. How many people in the Middle East will brush this off by saying, "Abu Graib"? The point is, if we do more to be Mr. Clean, they have a harder time making that argument. Aren't you for giving them a harder time? I'll skip the impulse to make sophomoric insults, unlike some here.

[Cindi]

Joe regardless of how well we keep our noses clean these pigs will continue to torture to death anyone they can get their hands on. And those trying to make an argument will continue to do so, no matter what.

Dress Sullivan up in fatigues and drop his pink ass in the middle of the terrorist. See how soon he screams for mommy.

[Marvin]

These Islamic Terrorists must be met with force. We must keep our troops on the offensive against the Islamic terrorists.

How did these two soldiers get captured, they were working a roadblock, the terrorists were able to watch how our roadblocks work and split the unit and take captives, means the US didn't shift tactics soon enough.

We need to continue to remind the Iraqis, that mean to rid Iraq of the terrorist, and we will use the force required. And we can apply this force without breaking US Law.

[Terry Gain]

Perhaps Sullivan might explain what America did to cause Al Qaeda to kill all those innocent Iraqi civilians. Has anyone else noticed how many Hurricanes we've had since Sullivan started blogging? Clearly he's the cause.

[Nick in (South Africa)]

Sullivan's lost it, this is just grotesque; the only explanation I can think of is that the drug cocktails he takes is affecting his faculties.

[joe]

"...there simply is no reason to make any effort to take them alive."

And since we've been told to shut down Gitmo, and release all prisoners (yeah right)... Sounds like a mandate - KILL 'EM ALL.

[joe]

I'm obviously a different "joe".

[wjo]

Richard M., it is obvious that sarcasm is lost on some people.

You did not provide proof that actual torture is the policy of this Republic. Your rebuttal is underwhelming.

[Rick]

"Has anyone else noticed how many Hurricanes we've had since Sullivan started blogging? Clearly he's the cause."

No silly rabbit. It is obviously GWB and Cheney with their secret water heater. Keep it to yourself but I hear through the grape vine that Cheney's secret army of hobbit's is planning something even bigger than blowing up levees. All I'll say is if you live in NYC you better know how to swim.

[rwilymz]

Richard M cites American torture as follows:

"...according to the human rights defense organization Human Rights Watch, that the use of torture was systematic in Afghanistan"

Here's the thing, Richard, HRW is not the arbiter on what is and is not torture.

They are applying **their** definitions, which carry no legal weight.

Other groups are applying their own definitions to other situations, which is why you have phenomenally idiotic positions declaring that sleep deprivation and lousy music played loudly constitutes "torture" at Gitmo, or that subjecting fundy muzzies to interrogation by females [who they view as "unclean" and "unworthy" and "unequal"] is also torture.

It is not.

The concept of "torture" from a military/international law/rules of war perspective is fairly specific and not defined by HRW, or the IRC, or even by the UN.

[steve]

MSM manipulation?

If there was they'd be focusing on the Iraqis civilians killed the same day by a coaltion bomb and not the 2 totured GIs. Frankly, the horrible story of the 2 GIs usually just steels the right wing neo-cons commitment to war (read most of the above comments).

IMHO, most of you are missing the point (s). Sure Al Qaeda are evil but that doesn't give the USA the right to do anything they want. Your outrage over 2 dead soldiers illustrates how you put more value on certain lives than others. Of course their brutal torture is horrible. But so was the death of 13 civilians (inc. children) on the same day.

Its just another example of how violence usually escalates (like Iraq for the next few decades) as everyone gets upset at their own dead and demands endless revenge. What a mess Iraq is thanks to the USA invasion.

It is no longer a war of good vs evil just us against them.

[rwilymz]

"What a mess Iraq is thanks to the USA invasion."

What color is the sky in your world, Steverino? Iraq was a mess before the US invaded.

Iraq was a mess before the entire world slapped its ass and shoved it back inside its borders in '91.

Iraq was a mess before it oozed over its borders -- twice -- in the 80s.

Iraq was a mess before the post-colonial partitioning imposed upon it by ignoramus British and Froggish world-splitters.

Iraq was a mess before its conquest by the Ottomans in the 8th and 9th centuries.

Iraq was a mess before et cetera.

Crack a history book, son.

[wjo]

Steve:

You are missing something. We don't PURPOSELY send our warriors out to slaughter innocents.

Our enemies kill the weak and feeble as POLICY. They INTEND to frighten us by showing their depravity. I read today they killed people in a retirement home, because you know, the elderly deserve to die as apostates.

The "cycle of violence" is not tit-for-tat. It is violence aimed at preventing sociopaths from commiting harm (us) versus the sociopaths wantonly murdering in their dealth cult frenzy (them). We are so different in our values from our enemies that the blindness of some is simply amazing.

No one is arguing that we have carte blanche to do as we please, just that we need to recognize the real nature of our foe.

What the horrid murder of our soldiers demonstrates is the gulf between us and the dealth culters.

Damn right it steels my spine, I am staring into the face of evil. This evil will not be destroyed by postmodernism, postconstructionism, passivity or moral sophistry.

[Korla Pundit]

Hey, nobody was ever tortured in Iraq while Saddam was in power...