The Reality Of Illegal Immigrants (make that Aliens)

I've been somewhat moderate when posting on this topic, except for slamming Bush for trying to sell us on Vincente Fox. But if Hyscience can get fed up, I suppose I can, too. Here's the deal as I see it.

Conservatives are not anti-immigration; we are mostly for controlled immigration with assimilation. Big business doesn't want either because of the associated costs it would require for government oversight, payroll deductions, etc. So some of our so-called conservative politicians are selling out to their big money donors.

At the same time, no guest worker program is going to do anything to stem the influx of new illegal aliens and it will likely simply encourage more illegal entries into the US. The real joke btw - illegals are not immigrants, they are illegal aliens, so I'm dropping the incorrect PC rhetoric our politicians won't use.

Still other politicians are afraid of losing the growing hispanic vote. But when you take that apart it makes no sense to a conservative, unless the Republican party is going to become the party of disenfranchised, formerly illegal aliens given a pass without having to be held accountable to American laws. That does NOT sound like the party I usually support when voting as an Independent.

That party would allow for enough legal immigration to meet the demand for workers, while ensuring a secure border for the United States and assimilation. And those hard working people, blue collar or otherwise, would make great Reagan Democrats once they became citizens ... too bad there isn't a Reagan around these days.

Unfortunately, outside of a few in Congress, I can't seem to find Reagan's party around anywhere. That's going to make for some real decision-making come next election ... assuming I vote. Maybe if I can't make it, I can just hire an illegal to do it for a few bucks an hour.

Hyscience has a substantive argument on the issue - one We The People are facing, as opposed to our politicians, who are running away.

Comments

[Laertes]

Illegal aliens come because there are jobs. There are jobs because illegals are cheaper than citizens and legal residents. Illegals are cheaper because they're largely powerless to resist exploitation. Illegals are also cheaper because there are no significant penalties for employers who exploit them.

So, walking this back, the solution is simple: Crack down on employers. Make the fines steep enough that employing illegals costs more than employing citizens or legal residents, after factoring in the risk of getting fined.

It's a wedge issue for the GOP, pitting their nativist base against their business lobby. I know exactly how this is going to play out. We'll end up with some kind of bill that does nothing to reduce the demand for undocumented laborers, thus ensuring a continued supply, while making the illegals even easier to exploit, thus driving down labor costs further.

This is a no-brainer. And no, I don't like it any more than you do. But then, I don't vote for the guys who do.

[RJ]

All this talk about them being cheaper. That is pure BULL!!! here in South Texas they are not cheap and they are not the ones being exploited. It is not that they will work for a smaller wage it is that the employers don't have to pay taxes, provide insurance or match those FICA and SSI withholdings. It should be a felony to hire these people. By the way most of the money they make here they send back home. They illegally live 8 to 10 in a two bedroom apartment and buy large ranches back home. They need to pay taxes here first and then they can do as they please with their money just like we have to.

[Laertes]

"It is not that they will work for a smaller wage it is that the employers don't have to pay taxes, provide insurance or match those FICA and SSI withholdings."

So you're saying they're not cheaper, it just costs more to employ them? Perhaps I was unclear, but this is of course precisely what I meant.

"It should be a felony to hire these people."

I wouldn't go THAT far, but your heart's in the right place.

"By the way most of the money they make here they send back home."

That's fine. Mexico's economy needs that money, and they're an important trading partner. If Mexico's economy tanks, we're in trouble. The problem is that the laborers are illegal, not that they're sending money home to support their families. Legal residents do that too.

"They need to pay taxes here first and then they can do as they please with their money just like we have to."

Word. Let's get all the cards up on the table here. Eliminate the demand for illegal labor and the supply will take care of itself. That's just basic capitalism. Anyone who thinks that you can preserve the demand for a commodity and cut off the supply just doesn't believe in capitalism. They must be some kind of commie.

[Laertes]

Since I was all busy agreeing with you up there, I didn't want to ruin it by taking on this bit, but I'll do it here:

"they are not the ones being exploited"

Of course they are. This, again, is basic economics. Illegal workers enjoy few of the workplace protections that citizens and legal residents have. They have little or no access to the legal system through which to press claims of abuse or discrimination. They can't complain to OSHA. They can be fired arbitrarily, which makes it virtually impossible for them to unionize. (I'm aware that since I'm addressing right-wingers here, I might just as well say that it's virtually impossible for them to conduct sanatic worship services.) They make any trouble, and you can just report them to the INS. INS, of course, is legally required to resist being used as a union-busting tool, but as you can well imagine, and with which you'd no doubt sympathize, these laws are generally not observed.

They can't sue. They can't complain. They can't unionize. You can have them deported. Of COURSE they're more easily exploited. This is simple mathematics.

[Robert]

In my travels in Mexico I have slept in small towns and villages that are not seen by many tourists. I have noticed that many of these places have no population in the teens or twenties. Why? Because they are all in the USA. They intend to return so I am told but the fact is they will become addicted to the US economy and will want to stay. When Mexico finally gets a government willing to lead the people they will have lost an entire generation of potential workers, which will be a problem for Mexico's future. This situation will help to assure that Mexico will be a permanent dependent state on the United States. Illegal immigration is ultimately bad for Mexico for it is a youth drain.

[annie]

Laertes

'They can't sue, They can't complain, They can't unionize. You can have them deported. OF COURSE they're more easily exploited'

Ah, you have got me sobbing my eyes for these poor Mexicans!!!

Have you forgotten Laertes, that nobody frog marched them into the US and made them stay and work.

They are in the US ILLEGALLY, do you understand what that means?

It means, they are breaking the law by being there in the first place. Your logic is crazy!

[Laertes]

I'll let your use of the word "logic" pass with a raised eyebrow and a chuckle, and move on to the substance, such as it is, of your argument.

Okay, this is progress. We agree that illegal aliens are readily exploited. I think that's a bad thing, and you think it's a good thing, but at least we agree that it's a thing, and that's all that's neccesary for this argument to hang together.

1. These workers are cheap because they're easily exploited.

2. There are jobs for them because they are cheeap.

3. They come because there are jobs.

In short, the very miserable conditions that so please you are the same conditions that cause illegal immigrants to come here in the first place.

If it weren't so inexpensive to employ them, there'd be no jobs for them. If there are no jobs for them, they won't come.

So there's an obvious way we can both win here:

Severely punish employers who hire illegals. Make the fines big enough that, factoring in the likelihood of detection, it costs more to employ illegals than citzens and legal residents.

Result: Jobs for illegals dry up. Illegals stop coming.

You got a problem with that?

[annie]

Laertes

How much do you think it is going to cost to police all these employers who let illegals work for them?

Instead of fining the employers, how about chucking them in the clink for a good long time.

That should concentrate their minds!

However, I should think your friends, the civil liberty people, would be right onto that one!

[Laertes]

"How much do you think it is going to cost to police all these employers who let illegals work for them?"

I dunno. Is that your argument now? That we should allow unrestricted illegal immigration because it's too expensive to police it? And how come the expense was never an issue when we were talking about sanctions targeted at the immigrants, but reared its' ugly head only when we spoke of employer-targeted sanctions? Could it be that, like many republicans, you have a natural antipathy toward immigrants and a natural sympathy with employers?

"Instead of fining the employers, how about chucking them in the clink for a good long time."

Er. I guess not. I don't think people ought to be jailed for hiring undocumented workers. Stiff fines strike me as the appropriate remedy. In either case, though, we agree that SOME kind of penalty and serious enforcement is appropriate, and so neither of us is happy with the status quo on that point.

"However, I should think your friends, the civil liberty people, would be right onto that one!"

I think you'll find that while the imaginary liberal who lives inside your head would have a problem with this, out in the real world, real liberals wouldn't actually mind. Legal penalties for employers who violate labor laws is pretty much our racket, after all.

[annie]

Laertes

I do feel sorry for Mexican or anybody who is poor, but what I am trying to point out is that nobody is making them come to the US. They are illegal, they are breaking the law, so why are you going on about their exploitation.

They should not even be there in the first place!!

The remark about chucking the employers in clink was tongue in cheek.

However, I think it is valid to say that it is going to cost a lot of money to police employers, probably be cheaper to strengthen the border.

[Laertes]

"so why are you going on about their exploitation."

I've explained why, twice, and since it hasn't sunk in, I can only conclude that you aren't actually listening. I'm not surprised, since I'm obviously a liberal and therefore an America-hating moron who needn't be seriously listened to.

Since I'm stupid, though, I never learn, and I will therefore explain it a third time:

1. These workers are easily exploited. This makes them cheap to hire.

2. Because it's cheap to hire them, and there are no penalties for doing so, people do it. A lot.

3. Because people do it a lot, they come here.

Sanction the employers and the jobs dry up. When the jobs dry up, illegals stay home. It's simple.

You, instead, propose to preserve the demand for illegal labor by keeping them cheap and exploitable, out of spite. How's that working out so far?

As for policing employers, it's obviously lots cheaper. That border is huge, we throw tons of money at it, and if you haven't been keeping score, so far that's not going so well.

So instead, enact huge fines for employers who hire illegals. Along with a big fat reward (like, say, a green card) for any illegal who turns his employer in for hiring him.

Right about now your head is surely exploding. "Reward an illegal with a GREEN CARD?!" Yep. Are you serious about this problem or aren't you? If you can set aside your knee-jerk hatred for illegals for a moment, consider: How many such rewards will we actually have to hand out? This idea is, IMO, a fiendishly clever bit of ju-jitsu. It appears to be friendly to the illegals, but what it actually does is shut down the entire market for their labor. No employer will risk hiring an illegal when the guy can turn right around and rat him out for a green card and stick him with a huge fine.

[annie]

Laertes

So, you propose they get a green card now for turning in the employer.

How much is the fine?

You reckon it might be worth the illegal paying the fine for the employer he turns in so he can get the green card?

That way, he can carry on working for the employer afterwards.

Follow the logic of that??

[Laertes]

"So, you propose they get a green card now for turning in the employer."

Yes. Bravo for turning your reading comprehension skills up a notch. Keep it up and you and I might actually be able to have a civilized discussion. I, for one, am growing weary of your contempt and my obligation to return it.

"How much is the fine?"

I dunno. How about $50,000.

"You reckon it might be worth the illegal paying the fine for the employer he turns in so he can get the green card?"

No.

"That way, he can carry on working for the employer afterwards."

After costing the guy $50k for every single illegal he was employing? Fat chance.

"Follow the logic of that??"

Yes.

Any more questions?

[annie]

I doubt it would be possible to ever have a civilized discussion with somebody like you who worships at the shrine of Cindi Sheehan!

It would be like talking to somebody from Mars, or is it Greece, or maybe Denmark!!

You probably don't even know yourself.

[Laertes]

Okay, now I can't figure you at all.

The Denmark crack suggests that you're actually a good deal brighter than you let on, and you're affecting a...well, let's call it stupid, persona just for fun. That is, a smart person playing a dumb troll.

But you're a winger troll on a winger board. That doesn't add up.

[Leatherneck]

Over 70 billion going south non-taxed, hospitals going under because illegal aliens useing the ER as a clinic, illegal alien children being given citizenship, and their mommie, and daddys given welfare, illegal alien children in schools paid for by American tax payers, cost to the American tax payer to house the nasty illegal aliens in jail, and who is going to pick up all the dam trash left behind by those wet backs? SECURE THE BORDER NOW!

[splashtc]

humm, if everyone is so worried about illegals coming across the border-what about the ones that are here already that we see everyday. Should we as citizens approach them and ask to see ID. There were an unusual amount of obviously mexican people on the train and in my area this weekend- gathering to march over the brooklyn bridge. I wanted to start asking them all to show their green cards. Why should it be left up to the minute men at the borders.

[Laertes]

Splashtc: I think that's an excellent idea, and you should get on that right away. Next time you see a large group of "obviously mexican" people, you should walk up to them and demand to see their green cards. You're obviously well within your rights to do this, and the idea isn't at all offensive or stupid.

We'll all be with you in spirit, brother.

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[splashtc]

Laertes- here ya go with political correctness- worried about offending criminals.

[Laertes]

splashtc: You're right again, of course. Someone who is "obviously mexican" is obviously a criminal. Once again, I wholeheartedly support your plan to approach groups of latinos and demand to see their immigration papers. This is a good plan and I'm excited to be a part of it, in spirit. I eagerly await your first reports from the field.

[IMHERE]

Mr. Fox it seems you just want the US to take care of your people, but I think a deal should be struck.

Maybe we can trade Mexico, take care of their people for the Country of Mexico. Mr. Fox does that sound like a deal to you.

At least we will have something to show for the US taxpayers money.

[splashtc]

Laertes-actually I already did it and they ran away so fast.

[Rick]

You can always tell the workers bees from the managers, the bees continue the fable of "they work cheaper" Truth is, Americans are lazy and child like expecting something for nothing. Worse than the French really. The aliens show up early, not on time, and work late.........yes! they ACTUALLY work on the job. But like any normal human being, if the government wants to give them anything they will take it. Let's bring more in and get more done!

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