Natalee Holloway Update

Someone sent a link to a video today. But I believe it's in Dutch. And there's word about a possible new suspect sought. Honestly I give all these reports little creedence, unfortunately.

Yesterday the case was a hot item on Dutch television, as they are trying to
involve more people by also apealing to Dutch an Aruban witnesses, that may
have photo or video footage with maybe in the background some evidence that
might proof against the statements of Joran and his friends. The documentary
is in Dutch, subtitled in Papiamento. It contains a reconstruction of facts
and statements that have been done in the case, replayed by actors on
location in Aruba

Comments

[DennisAOK]

Judge not, that you be not judged!!

Posted by: annie | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 03:12 PM

Operating on that principle, no country would have a criminal justice system. I say: Judge and be judged, lest the criminal run wild!

[xxx]

A FIB?

GMAFB.

A fib is saying "I was drinking responsibly" when the truth is "I was falling down drunk"

A massive, inexcusable lie is to say "I tried to get the girl back to the hotel, I took her to the Holiday Inn" when the truth is, NO ONE KNOWS, because as of today, April 2006 the three suspects still cannot agree on the story.

A massive, inexcusable lie is to THEN say "Deepak and Satish are trying to frame me, they dropped me off at home first and left with Natalee"

All the while the girl is missing, time is wasting, her family is grieving and the police are chasing their tales.

If this is what you call a fib, what is a serious lie?

[DennisAOK]

Innocent until proven guilty

Posted by: annie | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 03:04 PM

Wrong again, Annie. That refers to a legal burden of proof, not actual or probability of guilt. If you see me shoot someone in front of you, would you say I am innocent until proven guilty? No, you would say I did it. A prosecutor in court must then prove it beyond a reasonable doubt for me to be convicted of a crime, and your testimony would be evidence toward that end.

[dt]

annie - you call getting two innocent security guards arrested a fib? you call lying about the whereabouts of a missing girl a fib?

And no I've never told a lie when someone life has/was or is in jeopardy and I've never told a lie when to authorative figures, including the police. Is that your only answer to my question? ...you never fib..." Who says fib anyways?

Still can't answer the question? I thought not!

harold - very good point, of course the apologists don't have a real answer for that one either.

[xxx]

I really do not understand what is wrong with people.

To my knowledge the Aruban police have always said there was NO EVIDENCE that Natalee was back at the Holiday Inn. They have always had the key card information the Julie "I know what Natalee looks like" videotape and Frances Ellen Bryd's statement and the statements from the rest of the MB students and presumably from the Holiday Inn staff.

That would mean, that either the Aruban police incompetance reaches truly epic proportions, with the statements and videotape proving Natalee was at the Hotel all along and they just didn't have the intelligence to see it, or, the witness statements, key card information and tape have been reviewed and determined by the FBI and ALE to point to Natalee not being at the Holiday Inn that night.

I do not see what is so f***g hard to comprehend about this.

I don't see this is a 'grey' area. I cannot really believe an entire police department would look at the evidence and say, 'yup, looks like Natalee was back at the Holiday Inn' and just ignore it because of Beth Twitty, and this was during the first week, when the ALE was still saying Natalee might well be alive on the island and they were still looking in crack houses, etc. WHY THEN, if there was evidence proving she was at the Holiday Inn would they have ignored it.

The utter stupidity of this belief is incomprehensible to me.

The information about Natalee being on the beach is grey, there are the suspects' statements and other witnesses who contradict them.

Other than Julia Renfro, WHERE IS ANY STATEMENT or evidence that Natalee was at the Holiday Inn??

[annie]

There must be moths flying all over the place, all this patting each other on the back you moronic lot do.

Why not go tell all this to Greta, now that she has deserted the fold?

That must be hard to take.

It is all crumbling away, and you lot are going to be left 'stuck on stupid'!!

Though of course we wont be seeing you, because you will have all slunk away!!

[COLUMBO]

they've also said that they are investigating a premeditated murder with other suspicions, and that they believe that they've spoken to the killer

[COLUMBO]

"you call getting two innocent security guards arrested a fib?"

they are neither innocent, nor 'unemployed'

[moey]

Harold:

I will only dignify your respectful questions with a response.

Let me clarify for you: There is no forensic evidence that WE are privy to. Yes, perhaps, the ALE has solid forensic evidence that has not been released, but we are discussing here what WE KNOW to be fact/evidence and there is nothing other than speculation, speculation, speculation! They were in the casino together, in C&C togeter, they left in a car together -- end of story as we know it!

I have no idea what happened after that from what has been released to the outside world -- I can only guess. I don't know Joran the Kalpoes or Joran's dad. What I have seen of them on TV they have presented themselves well.

They all have the presumption of innocence until proven guilty and none of them deserve to be threatened or smeared, just because THEY WERE THE LAST SEEN WITH A GIRL/WOMAN WHO HAS GONE MISSING! IMHO Moey

[TYLER]

they've also said that they are investigating a premeditated murder with other suspicions, and that they believe that they've spoken to the killer

Posted by: COLUMBO | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 04:12 PM

and several months later "they" say that it was not a murder but accidental overdose and panic leading to burial . What part of this big chunk of BS are you willing to subscribe to.

[COLUMBO]

"Once again....nobody can logically give an explanation of why they lied, changed their stories and now can't even agree to what the story is....?"

somebody has

[xxx]

If Dompig thought he could photo shop himself dressed up as a sea monster carrying her out sea and get people to believe it, he would.

The police in Aruba do not care WHAT THEORY they settle on as long as they can end this case. If we can prove Joran did it, good. We can't prove Joran did it, how about no murder at all and an OD. Okay, that's not selling, how about a pantless rapist on the beach. Yeah, that sounds good.

[wreck]

Same old shit, annie. You come on here and tell us we are all wrong to call Joran a suspect. Sure, we could all be wrong --- and so could you. You cannot give one single reason why Joran should be removed from the list of suspects. He very well could be innocent -- but for now there is absolutely NO reason to remove him from the SUSPECT list. NONE.

[COLUMBO]

"and several months later "they" say that it was not a murder but accidental overdose and panic leading to burial . What part of this big chunk of BS are you willing to subscribe to.

Posted by: TYLER | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 04:16 PM "

their first concern is tourism-the first comment would not have been made with no certainty....the latter would have been said if it were in the interest of....say....the polis.....that NH had drugs

[COLUMBO]

they are about to nail somebody, and it is not Joran

[TYLER]

The police in Aruba do not care WHAT THEORY they settle on as long as they can end this case. If we can prove Joran did it, good. We can't prove Joran did it, how about no murder at all and an OD. Okay, that's not selling, how about a pantless rapist on the beach. Yeah, that sounds good.

Posted by: xxx | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 04:20 PM

Right ON xxx ! Dompig doesnt have the faintest fucking idea about Natalee's whereabouts .

[annie]

I have never come on here and said categorically that Joran is innocent, what I have said are that there are alternative scenarios.

What I also say is that there are a bunch of you who refuse to look and anything other than Joran & Co did it, and anybody who says different on here can expect abuse and derision from you.

What kind of mentality are you??

I'll tell you what, though you may not like it, but it is true.

Lynch mob mentality, that's what!!

[xxx]

Annie,

Every time you are asked for an "alternative scenario" you can't really come up with anything other than "well, where is her suitcase, maybe she ran away" which, again, unless you think the Aruban police are BRAIN DAMAGED, if her suitcase was really missing, don't you think they would have investigated this? But instead, since the friggin suitcase wasn't SHOWN ON TELEVISION, then you assume, that even though it has been stated that her bags were packed and left in the room, that in fact, her suitcase is missing. It just doesn't make sense.

All you can say is 'look at other people'...well, okay, let' look at other people. But we have to have other people who are deserving of suspicion. So for example if some kid from Mountain Brook had come back from the beach to the HI covered in dirt, sweating and shaking and gone straight into the closet to hide, then I'd say, hey, let's look at him... but it isn't responsible to investigate people just for the sake of it, just because someone wants the suspects to be innocent...that is simply not how investigations work.

If there was someone from MB who walked down the beach and was gone for a couple of hours, then let's look at them. Sure.

But so far, that we know of, there isn't anyone from Mountain Brook who fits that bill and so far, other than a crack smoking drug addict who has already told one FAKE STORY, nobody puts Natalee at the Holiday Inn and nobody puts any Mountain Brook student at the fishermen's huts.

[wreck]

Well, annie you are not the only "enlightened" one on here. Most of us have weighed 100's of scenarios and still feel Joran is the main suspect. I see very few here looking to "lynch" him. I do see a lot of people who feel Joran is skating. Big Difference. Just because we don't agree with you or are wishy-washy without an opinion -- we don't need YOUR ridicule for OUR opinions. Cite your own damn opinion -- and attempt to back it up --- then we can debate civilly.

[annie]

xxx

What on earth are you talking about!!

How about the attack or attacks on the beach Natalee was said to have been left on, that occurred a few days before she disappeared. There is at least one guy there that should be looked for and suspected? A SUSPECT!!!

What about the guys in the white jeep who were seen to follow the car that Joran and Natalee left the club in and was seen to be harrasing them (it appears that that is FACT), and what about the fishermen's statements that a vechicle of the same discription was seen to come down by the beach that night at the time Natalee was said to be there. How about them as other suspects?? MORE SUSPECTS!!

And you say there is ONLY JORAN & CO!!

Change the record please!!!

[windy city]

Good afternoon all! Seems a little more tame than yesterday. I have a question for Annie-- How do you think Joran got home on the evening in question?

[xxx]

You forget that the same fishermen say Natalee and Joran were not on the beach. So, if Natalee was not on the beach, how can this pantless guy attack her?

Sure, let's find the pantless guy, my guess is, he has an alibi, he is not the guy, but I have no problem tracking him down.

I wonder, wonder, wonder why Joran and Deepak and Satish appear never to have mentioned the white car driving aggressively. My guess is this is another red herring, that means nothing but by all means investigate it...if you think its' realistic that the car was aggressively following K2 all the way to the VDS house and the beach and was still there, waiting, after Joran left her and these are the guys that killed her. Good luck with that.

My guess is it won't fly...you are going to be left right back where you started, with the 3 people last seen with Natalee who are still lying.

[annie]

wreck

You and your cronies are fooling yourselves.

You can only debate civilly with people who agree with your version of what happened to Natalee, and that has to correspond with the conclusion that JORAN & CO DID IT!!

And you know what, I have been following the postings by people who believe that is true, and if they could have gotton hold of Joran he would no longer be walking around, he would be dead.

That is lynch mob mentality, and don't say there have been no postings like that, 'cause it is not true!!

[xxx]

No, Annie, the lynch mob is over at The Refugee site.

There is nothing wrong in having an opinion as to someone's guilt or innocence prior to a trial as long as you are not on a jury. I would never be allowed on Joran's jury because I am not objective, I believe he's guilty.

[TYLER]

You forget that the same fishermen say Natalee and Joran were not on the beach. So, if Natalee was not on the beach, how can this pantless guy attack her?

Sure, let's find the pantless guy, my guess is, he has an alibi, he is not the guy, but I have no problem tracking him down.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

xxx ,
how can even guess about the person having an alibi or not when he hasnt even been tracked down till now.

Just because the fishermen didnt see anyone doesnt contradict Joran's statement .

[wreck]

That is lynch mob mentality, and don't say there have been no postings like that, 'cause it is not true!!

Posted by: annie | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 04:45 PM
Hey, you have never commented on MY "theory." I assume you refuse to even read it.
As far as "lynch mob mentality" -- I see far, far uglier things said about Beth, Dave, and anyone in general from Mountain Brook. Cut the "holier than thou" crap.

[xxx]

Of course it contradicts his story. If someone who was on the beach where Joran says he took Natalee say they DID NOT SEE a couple fitting the description then that contradicts his statement.

How strong of a contradiction depends on exactly what the fishermen said. If they said, we were sitting at the huts smoking a joint at 2AM and no one was there, then that pretty much kills it. If they say 'we were fishing and never saw anyone but weren't paying much attention, there were other people milling around' that also contradicts his story but there is a lot of room for them to possibly not have noticed Joran and Natalee.

[TYLER]

How strong of a contradiction depends on exactly what the fishermen said. If they said, we were sitting at the huts smoking a joint at 2AM and no one was there, then that pretty much kills it. If they say 'we were fishing and never saw anyone but weren't paying much attention, there were other people milling around' that also contradicts his story but there is a lot of room for them to possibly not have noticed Joran and Natalee.

Posted by: xxx | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 04:51 PM

Thats pretty much my point as well. Do you know of what EXACTLY the fishermen said ? btw I thought Joran mentioned in Greta's interview that he walked alone towards the huts just before calling Deepak to pick him up and Natalee was like 300 yards away on the beach.

[TYLER]

contradiction is not the same as lack of verification

[xxx]

My recollection of that area is that it is nowhere near 300 yards from the huts to the road, but I'm not that good a judge of distance.

[JusticeforNatalee]

"...Never to have told a fib in your life!''posted by Annie

FIB? Joran's LIES go way beyond a fib!

They are lies with extra details added
(Natalee fell), they are lies that got innocent men arrested, they are lies that were not admitted until Joran was called out on them (No Natalee on HI video).

Then there came the beach story which is most likely ALSO a lie. Poor Joran couldn't figure out how he got home.

Annie--Have you read "Reasons for Suspicion at scrux.com? It is a good read.

[windy city]

Annie? Still waiting! How do you think Joran got home that night?(in case you missed the last post)

[COLUMBO]

two guards

[windy city]

Columbo,
I thought I remembered reading that the 2 guards had alibi's that night, and that is what ultamately led to their release.

[xxx]

It is worth noting that if you look at the photos of the Moutain Brook students, there are several girls with long blonde hair who could very easily be mistaken for Natalee, in fact, Ruth McVee also has long blonde hair, just not as blonde.

[windy city]

xxx,
I don't think it can be her in that film. Why would ale spend "millions" on the search for her. Not to mention the lost revenue in tourism and the big black eye from the media. Doesn't fit.

[annie]

windy city

How do I think Joran got home?

Well, let's put it this way, I don't think he walked!!

I think he is telling the truth about that, and for some reason Deepak does not want Satish involved!!

I reckon it may be because Satish is a bit timid and those boys of Dompig's may be too much for him, and he would end up confessing to just about anything if they laid into him hard.

Does not mean either of them are guilty!!

[xxx]

Do you hear yourself?

It doesn't matter, that eleven months later either the Kalpoes or Joran are still lying about how the night ended?

Deepak and Satish, who know that Satish did pick Joran up at the beach, just won't admit this, even though they know that Joran did not harm Natalee and neither did they?? They're just scared that then Satish will become the prime suspect?

Please.

[windy city]

Annie,
But at one time Joran claimed he did walk home, and then changes his story. Satish is involved, he is still a suspect and he was in jail. I think the reason they can't agree is because if they did, another part of their story wouldn't jive. I think if they could agree they would but for some reason they can't.

[Skye]

Annie,
Why do you believe Joran left Natalee on the beach? Why should anyone believe it?

[annie]

xxx.

Telling lies, does not automatically mean you are guilty of murder. That is even IF Natalee has met with foul play.

There is still no evidence that she is dead!

But at least you are being honest about believing that Joran did it (presumably killing Natalee).

[xxx]

xxx,
I don't think it can be her in that film. Why would ale spend "millions" on the search for her. Not to mention the lost revenue in tourism and the big black eye from the media. Doesn't fit.
________________________

I think there is zero chance it is Natalee in the video. It would have to mean that she was in the lobby of the Holiday Inn, at 3AM, and no one else saw her, she's not on any other security cameras, and not one other witness saw her.

The really sick thing is that the Aruban police are just letting it hang out there. Why? Because they don't give a damm about this investigation and they never did. I doubt they did bother to enhance the tape, or check other security tapes to see if this blonde woman appears on any other of them where it can be seen who she is more clearly, because that would have entailed too much paperwork and time and effort, beause ya know, god forbid, we find out its Natalee then we have to go out and do some more work.

[windy city]

Does anyone remember the interview with the guy from the kia. He said he's known Joran since childhood and always thought he would end up in jail. why did he say that? Did he have an axe to grind? Or does he know Joran better than alot of people?

[Skye]

Telling lies, does not automatically mean you are guilty of murder. That is even IF Natalee has met with foul play.

There is still no evidence that she is dead!

But at least you are being honest about believing that Joran did it (presumably killing Natalee).

Posted by: annie | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 05:24 PM

There is no evidence that she is alive either. No one , not one person anywhere has seen her.

Innocent people do not have to lie. Joran lied to cover up his crime. There is no other reason for him to lie and continue to lie and lie about lying.

[xxx]

Do you think she is alive?

Do you understand that sometimes people are murdered and their bodies are not found? Sometimes the bodies are not found for many years and sometimes they are never found.

Jesus Christ, if the police took that attitude they wouldnt' ever bother investigating any missing person case unless the last place they were seen was soaked in their blood.

Do you understand that a case can be based on ONLY circumstantial evidence, and that people were put in prison before there was DNA, even before there was fingerprinting...it was done based on common sense, building a case, finding the motive and getting circumstantial evidence and witness statements.

[DennisAOK]

Annie,

If you can look at the facts of this case and honestly say there should not be a strong suspicion of foul play on the part of these boys, you do not have the high intelligence you think you have. Proof enough to convict? No ( with no help from ALE). Is it theoretically possible Natalee ran away? Yes. And it's theoretically possible I will be elected President of the United States in 2008 - but not very likely.

[windy city]

ALE: "Hey mon we got a new lead on the missing girl, anyone want to check it out? anyone? Hey boss, nobody want to go. It's too damn hot this week mon. It's supposed to cool of next month, let's do it then" sipping coffee and eating frosted flakes.

[Skye]

Does anyone remember the interview with the guy from the kia. He said he's known Joran since childhood and always thought he would end up in jail. why did he say that? Did he have an axe to grind? Or does he know Joran better than alot of people?

Posted by: windy city | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 05:26 PM

Because Joran is a problem and always has been. His parents could not do anything with him and they lost control of him long ago.

I met some people a couple of weeks ago that said Joran's brother is a good kid but no one would give two cents for Joran and his attitude.

Joran crap on TV is just that BS crap.

[xxx]

I'm just curious at what point do the suspects stop getting the benefit of the doubt?

-They made up a very detailed lie about taking Natalee back to the hotel, including a 'walk through' to show her family exactly how it happened. That was supposed to be PANIC.

-They failed to tell the truth, after two security guards were arrested, based in part, on their false statements of Natalee being seen w/security gards at the HI. That is still PANIC?

-They failed to tell the truth for ten days, when by that time they must have known something bad had happened to her, in fact, they only admitted the story was a lie after being arrested and confronted.

-Joran then tells a second story to exonerate himself, saying he was dropped off first. Is he still in panic mode ten days later?

-Deepak was seen washing his car early the morning after Natalee disappeared. This I am to put down as mere coincidence, that he washes his car the night after Natalee was in it, before she was known to be missing.

-The suspects then are taped allegedly having an argument about Deepak disclosing to the police the "no body/no case" statement as told to them by Joran's father. What am I supposed to put this down to? More panic? Deepak innocently passing along the fatherly legal advice he had been given?

-Joran then in his statements gives THREE DIFFERENT versions of how he got home from the beach, he walked, he got a ride from Deepak and he got a ride from Satish. Is he still in FREAKING PANIC MODE NOW? What is the reason for this?

-Joran stated that Natalee was going in and out of consciousness [confirmed by Dompig], but she was sober, she was just falling asleep. Am I supposed to believe this too? She's falling asleep and not passing out? Okay, right, sure.

The whole thing makes me so sick I am not even going to bother to go through the rest of the ridiculous statements and suspicious behavior.

Anyone who does not see that these three individuals are rightly suspected of harming Natalee needs to read some true crime accounts and learn something.

[Cornflake]

Does anyone remember the interview with the guy from the kia. He said he's known Joran since childhood and always thought he would end up in jail. why did he say that? Did he have an axe to grind? Or does he know Joran better than alot of people?

Posted by: windy city | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 05:26 PM

Because Joran is a problem and always has been. His parents could not do anything with him and they lost control of him long ago.

I met some people a couple of weeks ago that said Joran's brother is a good kid but no one would give two cents for Joran and his attitude.

Joran crap on TV is just that BS crap.

Posted by: Skye | Thursday, April 13, 2006 at 05:31 PM

Fred Madura