Natalee Holloway - Tacopina Filing

Attorney for Joran Van der Sloot, Joe Tacopina, shot back with both barrels today in a legal filing pursuant to a civil lawsuit filed against Van der Sloot in New York by the Twitty family.

In one incredible response section, apparently the original action alleged that a Jane Doe was prepared to testify in New York, though not in Aruba, that Joran Van Der Sloot drugged her and sexually assaulted her as she faded in and out of consciousness. She was also said to be able to identify two other girls who could claim the same thing.

Those allegations were offered in an affidavit from a previous Twitty attorney, C. Helen Lejuez. The Tacopina response claims to have identified the Jane Doe as one, Karen Martina, who filed an affidavit under her own name claiming she never told Lejuez such things, nor did she prefer to travel to New York to testify on Joran's behalf.

Apparently the Twitty suit also alleged that Aruba was an unsafe environment for any trial, citing in one example, other locations, including Egypt, which have had on going terrorist activity, the implication being that the Van Der Sloots, complicit with high ranking Aruban officials, were embarked on some murderous campaign to prevent the truth from coming out. Tacopina's response argues that there is no evidence to support such a claim and the cited law does not apply despite Beth Twitty claiming several incidents of intimidation and anonymous murder threats unsupported by documentation.

Additionally, apparently the law suit made some mention of Joran Van Der Sloot having traveled to NYC for a television interview, suggesting his motives were less than honorable in broadcasting himself in such a manner. Tacopina countered by citing the numerous appearances of Ms. Twitty on television stations where she is said to have repeatedly cast unfounded allegations against the defendant.

Update: I also wanted to mention that apparently the original suit cited five witnesses from Mountain Brook who did not want to travel to Aruba to testify, presumably out of fear for their lives. Tacapino's response offered serveral excerpts from investigative documents claiming that said key witnesses were already on record as to have seen nothing relating to the charges in the initial suit.

Update2: pdf available here

Comments

[carol]

I would like to hear Joran's story after he is sworn in to tell the truth in court. He will get caught in his lies because he cant seem to keep his story straight. I dont think Deepak or Satish will lie for him. Especially, since he has tried to put the blame on them. Somebody knows something in Aruba!

[medicinegirl]

Stick a fork in Beth Twitty's civil case - IT"S DONE!!! As the New York Times says "Joe Tacopina is to criminal law what Donald Trump is to real estate! But, JQ Kelley has a promising career as a writer for the LIFETIME channel!!!" You gotta love it!

[david1017]

VIVI and wreck:
There is also in play here the jurisdictional issue over the case. There are two types of jurisdiction involved in every US case: personal, which they have since they served him in NY, and subject matter, which in this case involves a determination of whether the state of NY has enough of a connection to the alleged cause of action to be sitting in judgment of the case. Venue is a secondary issue to jurisdiction. You really only get to the venue argument if the NY court determines there is subject matter jurisdiction. And wreck a subject matter jurisdictional issue is an interlocutory appeal waiting to happen. That will happen if the motions are denied. I think JQK would very much like the focus to be on venue, because there is more gray area there. In my mind the subject matter jurisdiction argument by JQK is very very weak while JT's is very strong. The court must decide based on facts, not emotion, and there simply is no subject matter jurisdiction in the state of NY for acts committed allegedly by Holland citizens on the island of Aruba against people who live in the states of Alabama and Mississippi.

[Mike]

"oh GIVE ME A BREAK - beth is way off the deep end AS USUAL AND ALWAYS THE DRAMA QUEEN....Yeah, the people in aruba will kill her if she goes there - get over yourself - they put up with beth's garbage with more than patience as she slandered the hell out of that island after they fed, housed and donated to her......I think all she wants is more limelight and more MONEY now that the donation (i.e. SHOPPING) fund has run dry - Joran is less than honorable for going on tv? well what in hell does that make beth the queen on fox news???and oh yes let's not forget the supposed other "victims" of joran all of whom said they felt HARASSED by beth twitty and her then lawyer to say they were assaulted when they were NOT - I wonder how much donation money went to that endeavor? Beth has been and always will be seeking attention and she is as much a liar if not more than joran or those other boys are"

This is just pure hate....How anyone can hate someone they have never met in their life like this is beyond me....where does it come from?

Beth is more of liar the Joren and the Kalpoes...give me a break.

I don't know if Joren and the brothers are guilty but they did mislead a missing persons case during the most valuable first few days at the least. And even with that I don't hate them....I've never meet them.

This is with out a doult one of the sadest cases I have seen in awhile and it seems to bring out the worst in alot of folks out there.

[kaycee77025]

Everyone hold their breath until a decision is made.

[kaycee77025]

How do you join the "beth hater club"? Is there an initiation? Do you have to write an essay on why you hate beth?

Love the sinner, hate the sin. Many here feel Beth has sinned .. maybe others sinned against her by misleading her. She sued, now it's up to the court whether they even want to hear the case, let alone make her prove it is true within reason.

I believe the Twit camp is in a bit of desperation ... if they don't get into the NY court, then the VDS camp will pick a venue.

[Skyboxx]

How 'bout 'ole Joe Taco. He won't sue poor people who bad mouth his "Honor Student" Client, but he will go after a the multi-millionaire Philadelphia philanthropist....Way to go Joey! Thanks for showing us its all about the money.

Wonder of Trace Adkins can work that verse in , We don't do it for the glory, we do it for the Ba Donk ka Donk (and the money)

Joe T's get the "Show me the money" Award

Twit camp not desparate, lets seach VDS property and see who gets desparate. Every investitation in the world searches the resident of suspects, especially those who were last seen with victim. But on ARuba???

Search the VDS property and see who gets desparate.....

[Skyboxx]

Aruba's version of All in the Family...

"BIRMINGHAM, Ala., April 25 (UPI) -- The former leader of Aruba's investigation of the disappearance of Alabamian Natalee Holloway says his son falsely accused a man who was released Monday.

Gerold Dompig said accusations of his son, Michael, against Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, 19, were part of a dispute among acquaintances that escalated out of control.

"He's a kid; he got confused and frustrated and he said things he shouldn't have said," Dompig told the Birmingham (Ala.) News. "It went too far."

Dompig said his son -- angered by media accusations -- responded with talk he had heard about van Cromvoirt.

"One started talking about the other and the other talked back and it becomes something worse than a soap (opera)," Dompig said.

Dompig said he apologized to van Cromvoirt's family and requested reassignment earlier this month since talk about Holloway's nearly year-old disappearance adversely affected his family.

Holloway's mother said she believes the three original suspects are at fault in Holloway's disappearance."

Come to Aruba, where LIE-ING is our national heritage!

[Geez]

How anyone can hate someone they have never met in their life like this is beyond me....where does it come from?

Posted by: Mike | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 09:13 AM

And yet everyone seems to have met Joran and hate him.

[Skyboxx]

Joe Taco's filing says "that if case tried in NYC, that his client will be denied many witness who can bring light to the case."

Why not just give ALE these witness's NOW so we can move on? Let these witness give INFO to finding NH now, so we can move on

Joe T, this is such a farce...but I give you credit for trying.....

[Skyboxx]

Joran is an "Honor Student" according to his lawyer who has been libeled and smeared.

The fact that Joran has LIED repeatedly, had two black security guards thrown in jail due to his lies, had precious ALE resources wasted because of his lies, had his two buddies K2 and his DAD arrested because of his lies, doesn't mean he is guilty of anything but lying.

Let's demand we search the residence and overall property of the last person(s) seen with NH. This is routine investigative work. Lets serach VDS property, every inch of it. Let's search K2 residents, every inch of it. If they are innocent, and the "Honor Student Joran" (who only is guilty of lying) is telling the truth, he can be CLEARED.

Step us JOE T and Joran. Let's search the VDS property, lets search the well in the back yard shall we?

Then

[xxx]

Looks like Jon and I are the only ones who noticed the statements from her friend that Natalee was their most innocent and least experienced with boys friend....

But that doesn't fit the Girls Gone Wild profile so no one pays attention to it....

Also, I find it despicable that Taco put all of those addresses and phone numbers of these private citizens in a public filing without redacting the info. before it was posted on the web....typical.

It is disappointing though if as it appears Kelly never talked to anyone but the family and Helen Leguez about Jane Doe's testimony.

I have no problem believing that either Jane did change her testimony and was assaulted or that the Arubans lied to the family about what her testimony was in the first place..

Since the newest Dompig 'my son is a liar but it isn't his fault' FIASCO shows that NO ONE IN ARUBA, not police, prosecutors, no one finds the truth to be an important or worthwhile commodity

[Also_Dutch]

@Skyboxx

Joran and the Kalpoes were not the only ones obstructing the investigation. So did Beth, from day 1!! In missing persons cases the first thing investigators do is interview friends and family! Beth prevented that by making a big scene in front of the Van der Sloot residence.

Joran and the Kalpoes weren't responisble for the two security guards being put in jail. Joran told the police about two person in black security T-shirts. This was interpreted by the Twitties as two black security guards. But if those guards were innocent, then why did they have stuff in their possesion that belonged to some of Natalee's classmates? Stuff that had been reported stolen? Not quite innocent, isn't it. Reason enough for any police agency (Aruban, Dutch or US) to get those guards in for interrogation!

The Police can search the Van Der Sloot property if they have a warrant for that. To get a warrant they have to have reasonable leads to do so, just like the police in the US needs to. Otherwise no judge will issue such a warrant!

The case is still under investigation in Aruba, so we don't know how many witness statements the Aruban Police have, certainly after the "Opsporing Verzocht" show.

Joe Tacopino didn't start sueing for money. Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway did. They started this show, Joe will only finish it!

Dear Skyboxx before you comment on any subject, please get your facts straight first!

[mylena]

"Looks like Jon and I are the only ones who noticed the statements from her friend that Natalee was their most innocent and least experienced with boys friend....

But that doesn't fit the Girls Gone Wild profile so no one pays attention to it...."

xxx ,
least experienced with boys doesnt have to mean not interested in boys. In fact it could turn out to be just the opposite . lack of sufficient oppurtunities in the past could be a reason and senior trips like that are supposed to fulfill all those desires (not necessarily sexual but romantic).
we have had in FBI reports Natalee talking about "hooking up" with
guys and stuff and also that she attracted males by her graceful dancing.
its hard to believe that she was totally innocent about what she was doing. in other words she was having a nice time and flirting was a part of it and she was enjoying it like any normal teenager would do.

[truthbetold]

This is with out a doult one of the sadest cases I have seen in awhile and it seems to bring out the worst in alot of folks out there.

Posted by: Mike | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 09:13 AM

oh please? I ma not a bad person for saying what so may of us already know anyways - if you choose to live in DENIAL becauise you idolize beth twitty go ahead - I say it how it is and if jorans a liar and yes he lied then so is she

[xxx]

least experienced with boys doesnt have to mean not interested in boys. In fact it could turn out to be just the opposite . lack of sufficient oppurtunities in the past could be a reason and senior trips like that are supposed to fulfill all those desires (not necessarily sexual but romantic).
we have had in FBI reports Natalee talking about "hooking up" with
guys and stuff and also that she attracted males by her graceful dancing.
its hard to believe that she was totally innocent about what she was doing. in other words she was having a nice time and flirting was a part of it and she was enjoying it like any normal teenager would do.
------------------------------------------

I agree, but Natalee has been accused of 'whoring around' ...acting like a slut and a million other disgusting and vile things...

So I thought it was worth noting that her friends have been CONSISTENT in what they said about Natalee and boys.

I believe Natalee was testing her wings for the first time and that she probably did live in a relatively repressive environment and that she WAS NAIVE and that is why she's dead...if she had really been a party girl with a lot of experience with boyfriends, booze and so forth then she would have been able to handle herself and we would never have heard a thing about her, she'd be partying it up at U of Alabama right now.

My point was just that the sick things said about her sexual proclivities are, YET AGAIN, not backed up by the facts or the people in the case that know her.

I am sure she was a totally normal girl who liked boys, liked parties, tried drinking and all the rest of it. Nothing wrong with that....in my opinion, but many others have condemned her for it.

[mylena]

"My point was just that the sick things said about her sexual proclivities are, YET AGAIN, not backed up by the facts or the people in the case that know her.

I am sure she was a totally normal girl who liked boys, liked parties, tried drinking and all the rest of it. Nothing wrong with that....in my opinion, but many others have condemned her for it."

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10:29 AM

xxx ,
i RARELY find people on this blog posting something disparaging about Natalee . nobody apart from Deepak called her a slut . I undersatnd your concern for the victim and I am with you on that as well but sometimes you feel that people are behaving like way too insensitive assholes while thats apparently not the case .

[jon]

In response to JQK's argument that character testimony from MB witnesses is neccessary to rebut the smear campaign portraying Natalee as promiscuous ect, JT claims such testimony is irrelevant because he has no intention of attacking Natalee’s character (altho he's done so several times in TV interviews). However it is impossible for the defense to avoid portraying her as promiscuous, because Joran’s story is that Natalee wanted to go home with him and have sex, after just meeting him that night and interacting with him for only about 20 minutes. Therefore testimony about Natalee’s character is clearly relevant to assessing the plausability of Joran’s version of events that night.

[xxx]

I don't think the defendant gets to say what is irrelevant, but the Jane Doe issue is pretty damaging to the plaintif's case unless Kelly has a reasonable answer, such as a prior statement from Doe or other witnesses that corroborate her orignal statements about Joran or if this girl...who Taco Joe also named....is not the same Jane Doe Leguez was talking about.

[wreck]

At this point in the suit -- Joe T. should not even know who "Jane Doe" is. That is why she is a "Jane Doe" -- so defense attorneys cannot go to her and possibly "coerce" her to change the story. Not saying he DID coerce her -- but it is still not right.

[Marvin]

It is amazing that those who come here to post how sick they are of hearing about this case and Natalee, yet find it neccesary to come here and post?

Are they Oxymoron’s or just morons?

Posted by: Marvin | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10:55 AM

[Mike]

"oh please? I ma not a bad person for saying what so may of us already know anyways - if you choose to live in DENIAL becauise you idolize beth twitty go ahead - I say it how it is and if jorans a liar and yes he lied then so is she"

I don't idolize anyone Joren or Beth

[kaycee77025]

I agree, but Natalee has been accused of 'whoring around' ...acting like a slut and a million other disgusting and vile things...
So I thought it was worth noting that her friends have been CONSISTENT in what they said about Natalee and boys.
I believe Natalee was testing her wings for the first time and that she probably did live in a relatively repressive environment and that she WAS NAIVE and that is why she's dead...if she had really been a party girl with a lot of experience with boyfriends, booze and so forth then she would have been able to handle herself and we would never have heard a thing about her, she'd be partying it up at U of Alabama right now.
My point was just that the sick things said about her sexual proclivities are, YET AGAIN, not backed up by the facts or the people in the case that know her.
I am sure she was a totally normal girl who liked boys, liked parties, tried drinking and all the rest of it. Nothing wrong with that....in my opinion, but many others have condemned her for it.
Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10:29 AM
------------------------------------------
Vile things were said about Joran ... raping 3 girls before meeting Natalee ...
I really don't know what Natalee was doing sexually, and it really isn't important. I think it's about jerking peoples chains.

[Mike]

Where are these FBI reports posted?....I was always under the impression that the FBI doesn't share their investigation reports until after the case is brought to trial or some other conclusions.

[jon]

I don't think the defendant gets to say what is irrelevant, but the Jane Doe issue is pretty damaging to the plaintif's case unless Kelly has a reasonable answer, such as a prior statement from Doe or other witnesses that corroborate her orignal statements about Joran or if this girl...who Taco Joe also named....is not the same Jane Doe Leguez was talking about.

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10:40 AM

I wonder if this isn't a different Jane Doe... I think Taco's Jane is the same girl that had the pictures taken that got Freddy arrested- in the police recording the suspects talk about a girl with the same name as Taco's Jane, and say something about her not having anything on... IIRC that girl was supposed to be 14, and didn't Lejuez say in JQK's filing that her Jane thought Joran drugged her at CnCs? 14 seems a bit young to be drinking at CnCs

[val]

I believe Natalee was testing her wings for the first time and that she probably did live in a relatively repressive environment and that she WAS NAIVE and that is why she's dead...if she had really been a party girl with a lot of experience with boyfriends, booze and so forth then she would have been able to handle herself and we would never have heard a thing about her, she'd be partying it up at U of Alabama right now.
xxx, After reading your posts, (you seem like a very intelligent girl) this contradicts alot of what you post.

[xxx]

How so?

[Catekelly]

I wonder if this isn't a different Jane Doe... I think Taco's Jane is the same girl that had the pictures taken that got Freddy arrested- in the police recording the suspects talk about a girl with the same name as Taco's Jane, and say something about her not having anything on... IIRC that girl was supposed to be 14, and didn't Lejuez say in JQK's filing that her Jane thought Joran drugged her at CnCs? 14 seems a bit young to be drinking at CnCs
Posted by: jon | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 11:08 AM

If this case happened in America, we'd be wondering where the parents are in all of this rampant juvenile sex and porn, illegal underage drinking and why liquor licenses aren't being revoked. Kids who grow up in this kind of environment rarely turn into productive adult members of society.

[ViVi]

I don't think the defendant gets to say what is irrelevant, but the Jane Doe issue is pretty damaging to the plaintif's case unless Kelly has a reasonable answer, such as a prior statement from Doe or other witnesses that corroborate her orignal statements about Joran or if this girl...who Taco Joe also named....is not the same Jane Doe Leguez was talking about.

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10:40 AM

Without further testimony, there's not way of knowing that Joe's girl is the Jane Doe that Helen wrote about. I believe Helen interviewed more than one former girlfriend of Joran's. Joe's girl can only say she "believes" she is Jane Doe from Helen's statement--that is basically meaningless to a judge. In the upcoming hearing, the judge will consider the law and he will take into account sworn facts from the affidavit testimony--speculation will be disregarded, and there is plenty on both sides here.

[Berry]

I don't know who John Q Kelly's law partners are, but they need to re-think his value to the firm.

As for BT - months ago my husband clicked MUTE, whenever she appeared.

[moey]

David1017:

Thank you for that reasoned explanation of venue/jurisdiction. It was very thorough and precise.

I have not read all the case cites in JT's filing, but from what I have skimmed and read in the Affidavits, I think this is an absolute home run for him. What a professional piece of work that Memorandum and supporting documentation is. This case is not going anywhere near New York after arguments on May 17th, IMHO. Moey

[windy city]

I believe Natalee was testing her wings for the first time and that she probably did live in a relatively repressive environment and that she WAS NAIVE and that is why she's dead...if she had really been a party girl with a lot of experience with boyfriends, booze and so forth then she would have been able to handle herself and we would never have heard a thing about her, she'd be partying it up at U of Alabama right now.
xxx, After reading your posts, (you seem like a very intelligent girl) this contradicts alot of what you post.

Posted by: val | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 11:52 AM

Val,

How do you think she died? Where do you think her body is at?

[xxx]

Vivi,

What did you think of Tacopina's filing?

[val]

windy city-i think it is in the ocean. a while back there was a blogger that went into a very detailed description about the ocean currents, from that description a body would not have to be far out for it
not to come ashore. So in my mind there are two ways for it to be out there. far far away

[sunshine]

Step us JOE T and Joran. Let's search the VDS property, lets search the well in the back yard shall we?

Posted by: Skyboxx | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 09:47 AM

The property of the vdSloots was searched several times. Remember dogs too...snifff...sniffff Also the well..sniff...snifff....woef..woef No dead body.

Skyboxx come to Aruba and I will put you in the dry well, but first of all I have to make minched meat of you otherwise you wont fit in that hole.

[sunshine]

Joran told the police about two person in black security T-shirts. Posted by: Also_Dutch | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10:06 AM

Sorry but that was Deepak

[windy city]

windy city-i think it is in the ocean. a while back there was a blogger that went into a very detailed description about the ocean currents, from that description a body would not have to be far out for it
not to come ashore. So in my mind there are two ways for it to be out there. far far away

Posted by: val | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 03:30 PM

Val,
I might be wrong here, but I'll take a shot at it. I read from many posters that a person would need to swim out approx. 200 yards to get caught in the currents. It seems less than likely a drunk or maybe passed out person could swim out that far. Even if she did, what happened to her clothing and flip flops. Very tough to swim with flip flops on, especially in the ocean with the currents. What troubles me though Val is that you refer to her as "it".

[truthbetold]

At this point in the suit -- Joe T. should not even know who "Jane Doe" is. That is why she is a "Jane Doe" -- so defense attorneys cannot go to her and possibly "coerce" her to change the story. Not saying he DID coerce her -- but it is still not right.

Posted by: wreck | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 10
its discovery hun - the defense has a right to know EVERYTHING the other side has

[val]

I do not like to think of Natalee as dead. So I guess that there is that one bit of faith or hope or even miracle that keeps her alive in my own thinking. But I said two possibilities. This is the one from hyscience i found interesting HarryTho 1/11 Natalee Holloway Commentary
Topics: Natalee Holloway

This evening, I will explore the possibility that Natalee Holloway was carried out to sea while swimming. Earlier today, one of our posters, an Aruban, related that 5-knot currents embrace the island of Aruba from south to north. But more importantly, near the north end of the island where the Holiday Inn and Mariott are located, the currents come dangerously close to shore.

One estimate was that the currents came within some 150 feet (50 meters) from the shoreline at night. This means that someone venturing out at night could easily be entrained in such a current. Once within the grasps of the current, at 5-knots, they would be unable to return to shore under their own strength.

For some background information, I provide the following links to Caribbean currents:

The Caribbean Current

The Antilles Current

ecar2.jpg on ftp.aoml.noaa.gov

Project NOPP Drifters - Drifters in the Southwestern Caribbean

A map of the Caribbean Sea is useful to acquire one's bearings with respect to these currents.

Aruba_map.bmp

zoomed map

Location of the Aruba hotels:

Please note that the hotels lie just north of Oranjstad. The Marriott Resort is the northern most hotel on the island. The Holiday Inn resides just a tad south of the Marriott Resort.

According to our poster, a 5-knot current veers within 150 feet (50 meters) of the shoreline along the Holiday Inn and Marriott Beach. Notice how the shoreline in that area recedes inland sharply, creating a siphoning effect with the current. Any abnormal eddy flow characteristic, described in the Caribbean current links above that could have cause that siphoning effect to be more pronounced, would have produced an entrainment much closer to the shoreline. Someone may not have had to swim that far out in order to be overwhelmed by the effects of the current's entrainment.

What does this current data have to do with Natalee's disappearance?

On the night of Natalee's disappearance, separate security forces identified and declared that Natalee Holloway was swimming in the ocean off the Holiday Inn at 3:00 AM. Declarations also exist that the Kingdom of Mountain Brook students were concerned for the swimmer's safety for swimming out so far. How far has not been divulged. It must have been quite far for them to have been concerned. Although statements were made that the swimmer was another girl from the Kingdom of Mountain Brook that looked like Natalee, her identity has never been released. I believe we can state for a fact that someone resembling Natalee Holloway was swimming in the ocean, far off shore, the night of Natalee's disappearance.

If we employ the notions that we learned form our editorial on Roshomon, we can deduce that it is conceivable that the person swimming in the ocean at 3:00 AM was in fact Natalee Holloway. Why? Her classmates realized that Natalee was in trouble in the ocean. Unfortunately, they could only watch as she was dragged farther and farther out to sea by the entrainment of the current. How could any of them explain that they just watched her being carried out to sea? That would be unthinkable. They needed to mask their helplessness, and what they perceived to be their cowardice. How could they face anyone and say they watched as one of their classmates drowned without even raising a hand to save them?

Our poster explains that it may take only 5 or 10 minutes for a body to be dragged miles out to sea. A 5-knot current means you are five miles away from where you started, in one hour. In 10 minutes, you are practically a mile out to sea. How much time did the students have in order to react to Natalee's predicament? Assuming they were alert and watching her, they had but a few minutes. Recall, they were partying it up. From the pictures of the students (Morris & Byrd) that we posted in our past editorials, none of the students were in any shape to retrieve Natalee or anything from a swimming pool, much less an open ocean swim.

How did this happen? What persuaded Natalee to swim so far out?

From someone living on an island, I can attest to how the tides/ currents can fool a swimmer. If the tide is with you going out, you get lulled into believing in the strength of your swimming ability. It is when you turn to swim back to shore that you discover the tide pulling you back seaward. This is what could have happened to Natalee. She may have been accustomed to swimming pools and lakes or ponds where no tide or currents exist. It is easy to be fooled. You feel great swimming out. Besides, the salt in the ocean makes your body more buoyant. You feel almost invincible in the salt water.

Against a 5-knot current, whether assisted by the tide or not, a strong, capable swimmer would have little chance to overcome. A swimmer that is inebriated would have even less of a chance. She would tire quickly. Her body would experience water-shock, and she would succumb.

Swimming

Water-shock slows your muscles and makes it difficult for a person to swim.

This a terrible scenario, but it is no one's fault. The Kingdom of Mountain Brook teens should just come forward. Had they tried to save Natalee, they too would have been drug out to sea and suffered the same fate as Natalee.

A comment on sharks:

"When they do attack a human, the weight of evidence now suggests, they have mistaken a person for a seal or some other prey, and most often will spit out human flesh after the first bite. The problem is, of course, that the one bite comes from jaws that are up to 3 ft. across and lined with hundreds of knives."

Sharks do not look for humans. All that "Jaws" stuff is pure media hype. It is Greta, Nancy and Rita all over again.

"Human shark victims almost always seem to be inadvertent intruders rather than targeted prey. Scientists who work with sharks know how dangerous they can be, and many are critical of the guided shark-feeding tours that are proliferating in Florida and the Bahamas. Sharks there have begun to associate the sound of an outboard motor with food, and there have been attacks by sharks apparently impatient to be fed, according to George Burgess, head of the International Shark Attack File. Shark feeding is illegal in two Florida cities, and a campaign to ban it statewide is under way. ' When you are training animals, you are changing their basic behavior and their respect for human beings,' says Burgess.

That would be a strange development: the ocean's fearsome hunters lured unnaturally into the company of humans — then learning to bite the hands that feed them. Nature has its bounds."

In the news, the Amigoe Newspaper reports that the three suspects in the Natalee Holloway case will not be re-interrogated unless new evidence is discovered.

ARUBA – The three suspects in the Holloway-case will not be interrogated for the time being. Steve Cohen, spokesperson of the Strategic Communications Task Force announced in several American media that they would be interrogated. But suspects cannot be forced into new interrogations, unless there is new evident, which is not the case.

Right before the turn of the year, the Public Prosecution (OM) had sent the lawyers of Joran van der Sloot, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe an invitation for a conversation. Anthony Carlo, Van der Sloot’s lawyer: “We did not accept the invitation.”

One of the issues during the conversation would have been the recording that Jami Skeeters had made of Deepak Kalpoe and broadcasted it in Dr. Phil’s show. Also the brothers Kalpoe had declined a conversation with the investigation team. The Court released the suspects from custody in September and the OM didn’t like this. Neither of them had to remain available for interrogations, meaning that this can only be done voluntarily now. This can only happen if or when the OM can come up with new evidence.

Also In the Amigoe, an article that may have some bearing on our expose of the Parmer Capital Group appeared, citing a union negotiation with Isla refinery. It appears the refinery's labor contract with the local union has expired. Interesting timing for Hushang Ansary!

In other news, Aruba Truth announces that Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour will not support the boycott.

Governor Barbour does not support the boycott because he doesn’t think its appropriate.

“I am more accustomed to Mississippi being on the receiving end of people boycotting us because they don’t like this or that,” he told The Meridian Star newspaper. “I am not favorably disposed toward that device.”

In a side note, just thought that I'd let readers know that we're adding a forum "feature" to Hyscience, and it should help to add to the dialogue and exchange of ideas that we've come accustomed to sharing. I think our Hyscience readers will be pleased, and it should be up and running in just a few days.

On cable - Rita dove into the Cruise Ship murder. She employed the same cast of characters that were used in the Natalee Holloway case. Given their opinions in the Holloway case, it is difficult to take any one of them seriously and with any degree of credibility. Rita followed with an interview of the Brancata family over the ill-treatment of their son by the police. The Brancata lawyer claimed the son is innocent of the murder of the policeman. The lawyer quoted some pertinent law that does seem to exonerate his client.

Greta expounded on the Turkish police involvement in the Cruise ship murder, and is repeating the sequence of yesterday's stories.

In reflection, I cannot watch Greta or Rita without questioning the accuracy and motivation of their news. Their coverage of the Natalee Hollway case has made me suspicious of everything that they air.

With Aloha,

Posted for HarryTho

Posted by Richard at January 11, 2006 10:23 PM

Articles Related to Natalee Holloway:

* HarryTho 4/10 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Apr 10, 2006
* HarryTho 4/7 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Apr 07, 2006
* HarryTho 4/6 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Apr 06, 2006
* HarryTho 4/5 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Apr 05, 2006
* HarryTho 4/4 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Apr 04, 2006
* HarryTho 4/3 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Apr 03, 2006
* HarryTho 3/31 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Mar 31, 2006
* HarryTho 3/30 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Mar 30, 2006
* HarryTho 3/29 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Mar 29, 2006
* HarryTho 3/28 Natalee Holloway Commentary - Mar 28, 2006

Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.hyscience.com/mt/mt-trackb.cgi/4200
Comments

The "ocean current" scenario is a plausible one. 50 meters is not very far off the beach at all. A very dangerous situation for someone not familiar with the area.

However, what do we make of the letters that were supposedly sent by Natalee several months ago?

Posted by: Sandstorm at January 11, 2006 11:27 PM

Wouldn't Natalee have left her shoes on the shore before taking a swim?
I don't recall that her shoes were found.

Posted by: justice for natalee at January 11, 2006 11:48 PM

EquuSearch Chief Miller “supports Beth’s boycott 100%” after what he calls ugly encounters with Deputy Chief Dompig last Thursday and Friday. According to Miller, Dompig could have helped EquuSearch by requesting additional equipment from the FBI. However, rather than requesting the equipment personally, he instructed Miller to go through the Chief Prosecutor’s office.

Frustrated, Miller called off the search and left empty handed. Miller asked Greta last night, “Do they really want Natalee found?”

This is another evidence that Tim Miller is a liar. Tim made a statement that he never took part in the call for a boycott and never gave his support for this. This was published in Amigoe di Aruba yesterday! Your comments Harry.

Harry allow me to brief you regarding the coast of Aruba. Aruba has a constant north east trade wind. This create a rought north side were it will be imposible to swim. There were cases of suicide at this area but al bodies has been found so far to my knowledge. At the other side what we call the Palm Beach area is were most of the resorts are build. The blue undeep water makes it a perfect area for swimming, snorkeling and diving. If something is to be thrown in the water in this area it will come back ashore. This is because of the underwater curent that is keep coming back to the beaches. If Natalee was to be thrown in the waters, automaticly part of her body will be washed asshoreno matter how far
this could have happen. Bear in mind that Aruba is out of the huricane belt. The only thing that we might have during trhe hurricane season is some heavy rain and winds coming from the opposite side. If this happen the Palm Beach area most of the time confronts trouble because the ocean is throwing all the garbage on the white beaches. So if Natalee was trhown in the water then her body should have been found back on the beaches because of the changes in the wind directions that took place in many occasion in the last hurricane season.

Regards

Posted by: Albert at January 11, 2006 11:54 PM

To Albert, sandstrom & justice:

What I am proposing here is that Natalee went swimming off the shore of the Holiday Inn while she was inebriated. Her classmate saw her swim out into the ocean. It was not a short swim. She felt comfortable in the salt water. The tide was going out. When she turned and tried to return to shore, she could not overcome the tug of the tide pulling her seaward. The tide and then the entrainment force of the current took her farther seaward. Her friends called often to tell her to not swim so far out, but she could not yell for help. She was too far out, struggling in the water and inebriated.

Her friends, realizing the desperateness of the situation, failed to assist her. Some may have swam out, but realized how far she was, chose wiser and returned to shore.

How would they explain this to anyone? So, they decided to cover it up. They removed whatever clothing she took to the shore and discarded it.

In this scenario, we must rely on Roshomon responses and a conspiracy from a number of the Kingdom of Mountain Brook students. Also, from what I have learned from the Caribbean currents, the currents are erratic and subject to random eddy effects. That means that the possibility exists that an abnormally strong current could have exerted effects closer to shore that evening in question. If this is in fact the case, then it could explain how Natalee got entrained by a current so close to shore. Remember, all witnesses claimed that they feared for the distance the person swam from shore.

Now, the letter is interesting. It is postmarked from Arkansas and appeared when the focus seemed to be headed in the direction of the Kingdom of Mountain Brook students. Her classmates knew Natalee well and may have had some of her stationery or even hair samples. If they orchestrated a cover up of her being taken out to sea, then they could have concocted the letter as a diversion to the upcoming interviews.

I believe the foregoing fits. It probably fits better if the wind over the shoreline in question that night was calm.

Please note, Albert, that I am proposing that for whatever reason Natalee swam (or pulled) out beyond the point where the ocean forces moving seaward overcame the wind forces moving shoreward. The ocean forces pulled Natalee out into the 5-knot current running parallel, south to north, with the shoreline of Aruba.

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 12, 2006 01:04 AM

Wouldn't Natalee have left her shoes on the shore before taking a swim?
I don't recall that her shoes were found.

Posted by: justice for natalee at January 11, 2006 11:48 PM

Natalee was wearing (black?) flipflops. If someone found them on the beach he/she would probably have trown them away. These sort of items are regularly found on beaches. No one would have connected them to a crime, because the beaches were searched only a couple of days later!

Posted by: Also_Dutch at January 12, 2006 03:11 AM

One poster, claiming to be one of the MB student's mother, who mentioned that the youth by the pool saw a female that they originally thought might be Natalee swimming, said that they called out to her to come back in. This poster also said that the female was swimming with a Dutch male. Now how could a group of intoxicated youth out by the motel pool tell if this was Natalee (or not) at night given what must be a long distance from the pool to the ocean? And even more unbelievable, is that if someone was swimming with her, that they could determined it was a "Dutch" male.

And another unbelievable - - what good would it do to shout from the pool to people in the ocean? Could anything they said be heard from there, even if on a loud speaker? (NO. Only possible for yelling to be heard if right on the shore, and maybe not then. I go to the beach a lot and have yelled my head off trying to call in kids and sometimes have to go in the water closer to them to get their attention, or at best do wild arm motions at the shoreline to get them moving back to shore because they cannot hear me. This is daytime and they are pre instructed to watch in case I am calling them in.) So the very notion of people yelling from the motel pool to people swimming in the ocean is pretty ridiculous.

If they were concerned about the couple, they would have to run down the beach to the shore and wave arms and yell at the shoreline. These youth would have known this. Given the distance from the motel pool to the ocean, based on pictures I have seen, if this girl was Natalee, my guess is someone was down on the beach by the shoreline and saw her, maybe called out to her from there.

If she did drown that night, and someone knew it, I think somebody was already working on a patsy to be blamed - the Dutch male. If they had just said a "guy" then possibly believable, but to know it was a "Dutch guy" one would have to talk to the male or hear him shout in Dutch or recognize him as someone they knew who is Dutch. But the poster claimed that the youth decided that the couple were not people they knew. Got that eyewitness to a "Dutch" male in the story though and there may, or may not have been a male with her.

Posted by: shonane at January 12, 2006 03:13 AM

Some of the shark attacks in Florida have occurred in areas where people are surf fishing and have bait with them. The sharks smell the bail and bite the person.

Posted by: shonane at January 12, 2006 03:15 AM

I personally favor the "swimming" theory. But I doubt if any of the MB kids saw it. The pool, where they say they were hanging out, is at least 30 metres from the ocean, perhaps more, and there are palm trees and whatnot in the way. I don't think that the kids would notice anything that was going on in the (unlit) ocean, and Natalee would have had to be well offshore. Keep in mind that the waters close to shore on Palm Beach have little current.

Posted by: Gary at January 12, 2006 03:35 AM

If she died on the beach! its would be easy to get her 50 feet out !

Posted by: rib at January 12, 2006 07:07 AM

This is because of the underwater curent that is keep coming back to the beaches. If Natalee was to be thrown in the waters, automaticly part of her body will be washed asshore no matter how far.
(Albert)

The undercurrent is going direction ocean and not to the beaches. You can feel it if you stand still in the water. Body is pushed above by surface water to the beach and pull below(legs). Start at 50 meters and up to 1.5km where the ocean current takes over. Look at the Aruba map and draw a virtual line from the most western point(above Oanjestad) to the most northern point the already famous Lighthouse. To the right of this line are the calm swimming waters and hotels/resorts with undercurrent, closer to the line becomes stronger, and left of this line the ocean current.

The nightmare for locals fishing at sea(SouthWest) in a small boat: Engine trouble, no radio, cellphone no contact and all this in sight of the coast and family home. To row is not an option. Hopefully someone or some large vessel will see them because the island is waving a goodbye to you as it passes on the right. This happens in Aruba, ask the locals(Savaneta-Pos Chiquito), I do remember.

Washing ashore is because of the wind or a storm with large waves and hence the current circling around the northern part of the island.
Body's are found because they are clasped between rocks or otherwise down in the sea, never floating after a longer period. In Oranjestad harbour or in the lagunas protected by reefs it is possible. North is different, the waves and current hits the island direct. Swimming is not possible, dangerous steep rock coast and strong high waves. A body or object here is thrown at the rocks untill nothing is left or eaten by little sea animals like crab-fish or larger.

Like Harry: ALOHA!

Posted by: letstalk at January 12, 2006 08:52 AM

Thanks Harry,
Very logical conclusion for Natalee's fate. Maybe a good way to close this book. I have enjoyed reading everyones theories and ideas over the past months. But this one is it for me. RIP Natalee Hollaway and God Bless your family....Shivas

Posted by: Shivas at January 12, 2006 10:13 AM

[windy city]

val | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 04:25 PM

Val,

I have read Harry from Hyscience. Makes for a very entertaining read. Most of it is speculative and hearsay.

Nice try though!

[windy city]

Val,
The only person that said Natalee was even on the beach is Joran. This was only said after his other "stories" were debunked.

I'm not sure she was ever on that beach that night.

[Fonna57]

Cell phone records show Joran called from the area of the fisherman's hut where he said he left Natalee... which leads me to believe she WAS on the beach at that time. I think Deepak went back after dropping Nat off and He "hit the jackpot" as he said in his own words. I think he raped her and tried to "fix it" as he was quoted as saying. Buried her at the fisherman's hut--told JVS after the fact; not sure from there on---but I think she was dug up and taken out to sea

[moey]

Just finished reading through JT's filing. Great memo, he hit all of the points raised in JQK's filing.

As for the posters who asked about his witnesses - look at page 33, he has a minimum of 32 listed there by name.

I predict this will never see the light of day in NY. MO Moey

[val]

the next one is not quite figured out but. From my experience of having relatives living in the Virgin Islands and visiting, it is the easiest thing to take a boat out at anytime. For that to happen I think there are more than 3 persons in aruba that know this if you catch my drift. There was an incident that happened on St. John that no one will know the truth about. One of the reasons is because people are very, shall we say "clanish".

[Pearly]

if Deepak went back and raped and killed NH, why on Earth would Paulus arrange for his atty and his brother's, and then let Joran sit in jail all summer?

I think they did go back to Joran's, but not his little guest house apt. I think the big house. I don't think PVDS minded at all.

[Skyboxx]

Evyerone's looking at the beach because the Honor Student Joran says that's where he left her.

We should start seraching the VDS property and dig up the well in the back yard. This isn't the first LIE that the Honor Student Joran has told.

They did NOT search PVS property.

[sunshine]

Evyerone's looking at the beach because the Honor Student Joran says that's where he left her.

We should start seraching the VDS property and dig up the well in the back yard. This isn't the first LIE that the Honor Student Joran has told.

They did NOT search PVS property.

Posted by: Skyboxx | Wednesday, April 26, 2006 at 06:15 PM

Ok Skyboxx have it your way...they didn't. Are you satisfied now?

[Jody]

my favorite part was Joe calling Beth the liar that she is.

[offonatangent]

Skyboxx
The well is accessed by a 6" pipe - do you still think Natalee is down there? This sounds awful but do you really think that they cut her up in 5" pieces, pulverized her bones and skull and stuffed all 110lbs of her piece by bloody piece, down a pipe? Unless the VDS Family owns a pretty heavy duty bone saw or an industrial woodchipper NATALEE IS NOT IN THE WELL! My S&R friends who umm have "first hand" info also assure me that Natalee is not on the VDS property - whole, in pieces or in any previously human form. Believe what you like - fixate eternally on Natalee in a cold, sandy, unmarked grave on the VDS property if you like - Natalee is almost assuredly a few scattered bones in the ocean by now.
They can re-search the VDS property all day every day and they will still have no better idea of where Natalee is than they did 11 mos ago. Paulus VDS is NOT stupid enough to bury a BODY at his house - his expectation HAD to be that it would be searched and the body located if it was there - INSTANT GUILT without doubt. Du-OHHH the ocean is right there in every direction - and if the body WAS found, ocean or not, still no obvious, direct evidence of Joran's guilt like there would be KEEPING IT ON HIS PROPERTY. Even the cruelest, worst, most evil cunning criminal OR the dumbest dolt with the IQ of a POST doesn't foul his own nest. This isn't the Dahmer family for Gods sake! 1st instinct is ALWAYS to get rid of it - as far away as possible. On an island, that's obviously the water, not your backyard with the family pets.
It is sad that Natalee's family will probably never bring her home but if she has to rest somewhere else, at least she loved the ocean and the tropics.

[Pearly]

offonatangent,

I beg to differ about the maniacs not fouling their nests. John Wayne Gacey buried them under his house. Another nut (can't recall name) picked up homosexual men while his wife was out of town and tossed them in the woods behind his house. One murderer sat and ate spaghetti while they dug his wife out of the basement floor.

I agree with you though that NH is not at the VDS property--now.