Duke Rape Allegations Update

La Shawn Barber - a female, black, conservative blogger weighs in.

My qualifiers above have more to do with someone else recently in the news, not La Shawn. Somehow I suspect her take differs from what might be that of, say, a Cynthia McKinney.

Also, from the wires:

Lawyers for Duke University lacrosse players say time-stamped photos taken at a house party will help them challenge an exotic dancer's report that she was gang raped by three members of the team.

The eight photos, taken from several cameras, show the dancer arriving at the March 13 party and then show her at different times in a 41-minute period, attorneys said.

Durham attorney Bob Ekstrand, who represents 33 of the players, said the photos show she has several injuries and was "pretty banged up" before the time police reports indicate the assault occurred. The woman had a cut on one of her knees, lacerations on the side of her foot and bruise marks, he said.

The woman also appeared impaired from the time she arrived at the party, Ekstrand said.

Comments

[DoorMart]

Funny they waited a month to "claim" they had photos. It may have took them that long to figure out PhotoShop.

You dont wait a month to bring this out, if you had such photos all along. Notice they did not make the photos public.

Also, the time stamp claim is dubious. Remember that this was a "party" and the perps, too, were intoxicated. I find it very questionable that all these drunk male students had "cameras" with them for this party.

[xxx]

I would be disgusted if anyone made photos of an alleged rape victim public, that would be a horrible thing to do to her whether she is telling the truth or not.

We don't know how long the police have known about these photos, the defense attorneys may have gone public because they are sick of seeing their clients demonized by what could turn out to be false charges.

Ps, I think it would be pretty hard to photoshop bruises onto someone's body, but who knows.

[xxx]

PS,

They paid $800 for two strippers to come and strip for them for two hours. OF COURSE they're going to all have cameras.

Listen, I think the whole idea of two women stripping in a house full of 50 drunk athletes is inherently a bad situation, inherently going to lead to the women being degraded and demeaned, and I don't doubt that one way or the other the party turned ugly, but that doesn't meawn this woman was raped and if she is lying about being raped then the truth needs to come out.

[joseph cooke]

it is very belieable that members had camera's after all this was supposed to be a see no touch affair.i hate to say it being i am truly for woman causes but hints of this story make me question the truthfulness... i hope for black people and woman causes that there is enuff evidence to convict..

[Ciarra]

"...the photos show she has several injuries and was "pretty banged up" before the time police reports indicate the assault occurred. The woman had a cut on one of her knees, lacerations on the side of her foot and bruise marks...The woman also appeared impaired from the time she arrived at the party, Ekstrand said."

And yet, presumably, the boys/men went right ahead and had sex with her, no questions asked.

Whatever happend to the fargone mythical being we once called "good character"?

[xxx]

The suspects claim that NO SEX occured.

They say the entire story is a fabrication, they're not arguing she agreed to sex but are saying that no one at the party had sex w/her.

[Scott]

Camera phones have exact time and date stamps when you take a picture. This doesn't seem so unbelievable to me. I think the DNA evidence should tell the story IF DNA from attendees of the party is found. But if it isn't I don't think that necessarily means the players are innocent, I think it could mean they used condoms. I would really think they would. I think if the pictures show she had been ruffed up before she came AND no DNA evidence is found that goes a long way toward creating reasonable doubt and I bet no charges will be brought . . . AND I do not think the Durham community will take that sitting down. This could get UGLY!

[La Shawn]

As of 6:27 p.m., no DNA matches have been found:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191232,00.html

[*flo*]

What happen to the neighbor, I believe it was a older gentleman who witnessed racial slurs?

[xxx]

The results are in, no DNA matches to any of the players.

I can't see how any charges can be brought, and at this point, it looks like the woman made the story up.

There isn't any DNA evidence..and it would seem if the players had used condoms, she would have told the police this in the beginning and everyone wouldn't have been awaiting the DNA results...and since she doesn't say she was too intoxicated to know what happened, but was fighting them the whole time, then she should remember if ALL THREE GUYS were wearing condoms or not.

If there isn't any other evidence I think her story has lost all credibility at this point.

[Scott]

can I just say I think you'd have to be nuts to have unprotected sex with a stripper!

[*flo*]

I'm also curious about the (4) red finger nails...it was reported they were found after X amount of days...they also were to be used as evidence.

[xxx]

My guess is there isnt' any DNA on the fingernails either, and the players attorney say they have photos showing her nails were already broken when she arrived.

As far as any neighbor witnessing racial slurs, I haven't seen that, bur racial slurs and gang rape and strangulation are pretty far apart.

The woman who made the other 911 call alleging she had been the victim of racial slurs now appears to be the other stripper and not too credible since she changed her story from walking by the house to being in a car...presumably, if you are telling the truth, you aren't going to be confused about whether you are walking or sitting in a car.

I feel bad for this woman, but I don't see any evidence of rape...there isn't any DNA, there isn't any identification of the 3 guys, there isn't any admission of sex and there seems to be a lot of other evidence that rather than supporting her story, directly contradicts it.

[hobo]

The woman is a disgusting opportunist and I really hope the accused boys parents sue her, the DA, and the Duke Prez. Maybe her share of entitlement is getting weaker and she thinks she has found a new source of money.

[xxx]

Hard to say, it looks like someone beat her up, I can't believe she was so trashed she got that many bruises just from falling down, and there must have been some indication on her exam that she had recently had sex, so maybe someone else raped her and she accused these guys instead, maybe because they were mean to her, maybe because she sensed a pay off possibility.

But it is sure looking like none of the guys at the party, however assholish they may have been, raped her...

[*flo*]

She was checked out by a nearby medical facility, there was indication of possible rape...curious who the perps would be...

Her attorney was on Fox last night, stating he had representative the same women several yrs back for stealing a Taxi in a drunken rage, with his client meeting all necessary obligation in fines and community service. What a scandel! Being a prosititute is one thing, yet it would take not only a desperate, but sick individual to set up a event such as this ...

"The warrant also adds conspiracy to commit murder as a crime that police are investigating."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190792,00.html

Re: per District Attorney
Investigators are still collecting evidence, but District Attorney Mike Nifong has said in recent days he already believes a crime occurred. Even if the state crime lab's DNA analysis proves inconclusive or doesn't provide a match for any of the athletes, Nifong has said he'll have other evidence.

"If the only thing that we ever have in this case is DNA, then we wouldn't have a case," Nifong said Wednesday...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189635,00.html

[xxx]

More important than no DNA is that the photos are alleged to show the woman was already bruised when she arrived, which means that if she led police to believe she got the bruises from fighting off the 3 rapists then she's a liar and not too smart, and probably not a victim of rape by anyone at Duke.

And if her fingernails came off while she was scratching at one of her attackers, why isn't his DNA found on the fake nails or her own nails?

I really don't see any other evidence here, and if it is true that the 911 call was bogus and made by the other stripper, then forget about it, no charges will be brought and no charges should be brought.

[FloridaPatty]

Now, let’s talk about racial double standards. I laughed out loud when I read that Duke’s president met with “black leaders.” A rape accusation has been leveled. Does it really matter what color the people are? Apparently so. Black people can be such babies, can’t we? We need to be placated and coddled like whiny toddlers. If the evidence reveals there was no rape and the stripper made up the whole story, will “black leaders” make a public statement about it? What about a private apology-chat with Duke’s president? Care to wager?

As I mentioned before, black men raping white women is much more common than the other way around, but when was the last time a football team canceled its season? Other college rapes, that is, black-on-white rapes, don’t get a fraction of coverage, such as this one or this one. Remember thuggish Lawrence Phillips, a black football player who had a penchant for beating up white women? The media barely reported those stories.

And what about “hate crimes?” Although whites are the most likely hate crime victims, the only so-called hate crimes that get blanket coverage involve black victims and white perpetrators. By the way, this is what I think of “hate crimes.” -LaShawn Barber, Conservative Blogger (link above in Dan's post)
...............

And Howdy! Some discussion going on here.
I'm still waiting for the other evidence to surface. I'm starting to doubt this given they have just revealed the female caller to 9-1-1 reported the racial slurs was the other stripper.

[FloridaPatty]

No DNA? condoms.

[*flo*]

Hey FloridaPatty,
Attorney Joe Cheshire, who represents one of the team's captains, said "even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it's likely there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting an assault took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA on her to indicate that she had sex of any type recently."
"The experts will tell you that if there was a condom used they would still be able to pick up DNA, latex, lubricant and all other types of things to show that — and that's not here," Cheshire said.

Sounds like Cheshire is sure of himself....We need to see how this resolves considering....

"The investigation of Duke's response will be conducted by William Bowen, president of the Andrew Mellon Foundation and a past president of Princeton University, and Julius Chambers, former director-counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund and a past NCCU chancellor.

The university's critics have complained that it has taken three weeks to reach these actions. There have been near-daily protests on and off campus."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190792,00.html

[FloridaPatty]

Hey Flo:

Here's the part that doesn't quite dismiss the three guys for me, she shows up at the ER with a torn vagina. Girls out there, would you tear your vagina out of vengence because they shorted you money? tear your vagina for a potential lawsuit to win big bucks maybe? Child birth was enough for me thank you very much.

This girl flies out the door leaving her cellphone, her car keys, one shoe and her money. Hmmmm...
I'm thinking back to when I was in college, at a party and under what circumstances would I fly
out the door leaving my means of escape (keys) and my ID (where I live)my purse, my $400 behind? If I feared for my life. That is the one situation I would ditch it and run.

So there was no DNA on the body. Yeah, I'm one of those people that's been watching Cold Case Files from the go. Plenty of women have been killed, raped, with no DNA present. Not even pubic hair.

And you know what really scares me? That the woman's past criminal offenses is coming out! Like this matters? It's like if a girl in a short skirt dancing in a bar gets raped out back "she had it coming". Man, I thought we had grown beyond that in 2006 but loud and clear I can see that we haven't!

Oh, and NO ONE on the team is talking?

[hobo]

http--www.amren.color.pdf

This is on pdf, so I couldn't cut and paste the data to save you the time, but there are some very staggering statistics here with no apparent bias.
I wonder when this country is going to wake up and say "enough" to the [black] special interest groups. When I was in Sacramento, there was a rash of court cases where they cited violation of their civil rights, among one which had a similar outcome. A County jail prisoner hangs himself and his mother who has not been in the picture for 15 years files a civil rights suit. His father suddenly comes from out of nowhere and signs on and they win $1.5 million. This is not a particularly unusual case up there; several like it took place in 2002 and 2004 that were literally head bangers. I really think it's (way overdue)time for change. Do the crime, do the time; no bullshit excuses for "historical" crap and white guilt carryover.

[FloridaPatty]

Hobo I understand what you are saying. It's like enough already with the Uncle Tom's Cabin. Why does this have to turn out to be a racial issue? It's a rape issue. To me it has nothing to do the fact she is black and more to do with the old "cry rape". (cringe) makes me think of these:

You know you wanted it.
When girls say no they really mean yes.
She deserved it!
Girls like that who (insert profession deemed unfit)have it coming.
She was just asking for it.
Just a healthy young boy sowing his oats.

and on and on.

[*flo*]

Posted by: FloridaPatty | Monday, April 10, 2006 at 10:35 PM

Yeah...hear ya loud & clear, you know District Attorney Mike Nifong stopped commenting on this case last week...yep, technology has advanced in crime solving and there are laws out there which will bust this 'CODE OF SILENCE', ...he warned he may bring aiding-and-abetting charges against some of the players. Sounds of it, DA Nifong is from ole' school crime solving.

RE:
"If the only thing that we ever have in this case is DNA, then we wouldn't have a case," Nifong said Wednesday...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189635,00.html

Posted by: *flo* | Monday, April 10, 2006 at 08:01 PM

Posted by: *flo* | Monday, April 10, 2006 at 09:53 PM

[hobo]

Florida Patty
Maybe my point was a little off. Rape is rape, no matter how it turns up or occurs. That's why I used to become so annoyed and upset with the posters who practically blamed Natalee Holloway for her disappearance. May sound weird, but I don't care if a girl goes to a party, gets drunk (or doesn't get drunk), takes removes her clothes and passes out in the bedroom. This is not an invitation to have sex with her, but rather a case of rape, in my book, if someone jumps her bones. I guess as a male, I get so exasperated concerning the situations where sex happens and whatever the conditions, the guy gets nailed if the girl has a change of thought. Case in point would be the Kobe Bryant suit. I really beleive that when a girl/woman says "stop", that means stop. On the whole, I am more supportive and sympathetic to the womans side of the issue than the males, but I really believe the woman in the Lacrosse case is an opportunist. Tears in the vagina can come from regular sex and not necessarily through force. I really believe she engaged in sexual activity before the party and figured to use the party to her advantage. Bottom line: if the boys are truly guilty, throw the book at them. No one should be exempt. Hope this helps a little.

[jkatl]

We haven't heard from the prosecuter yet re the DNA. I would like to know if ANY male DNA was found on the accuser. It has come out that there were other men at the party that were not lacrosse players. The accusers father thinks the case will go forward and he has a specific reason why that he would or could not devulge. I'm betting there might be a witness statement from one or more lacrosse players implicating a non-team member.

[xxx]

I agree that no DNA doens't mean no rape, but usually when the defense lawyer starts using the 'no DNA' argument it is AFTER the tests come back negative and not BEFORE. These lawyers have insisted there would be no DNA from their clients since Day One and they were proven right.

If there was any witness statements I believe the DA would have made them public by now since he's looking pretty dumb at this point in time with no DNA and possibly no injuries.

I don't remember the reports saying her genitals were injured just that she had injuries consistent with a sexual assault....they could have been referring to the other bruises on her legs and face as consistent w/her story of being held down and strangled.

[Berry]

There may have been obnoxious behavior, but it's hard to make a case for a brutal gang rape when there is DNA and it does not match any of the team members.

So far as time stamped photos being faked - I seriously doubt it.

I think the DA spoke too soon and should have waited to review all the evidence before talking tough.

[xxx]

the saddest and scariest thing I am seeing now is blacks saying that the lab/police must have faked the DNA tests...come on people, this isnt' Aruba, the DA was gung ho to make arrests in this case, going so far as to say he might arrest anyone w ho didn't stop the rape....to think that a case this high profile would be tampered with is DUMB and it shows how bad race relations really are in this country.

i don't have a problem believing a rape victim even when there isn't any DNA or eye witnesses or anything but a credible story, but that isn't what we have here, we have an alleged victim's statement that appears to be CONTRADICTEd by the available evidence..which is a huge difference.

certainly a woman can be gang raped and no DNA be found, she can be gang raped and have no injuries, she can be gang raped and not be able to identify the rapists or even know if they were wearing condoms...but she can't be strangled and fight off her attackers and come away with only the bruises she had BEFORE she entered the house, she can't stratch a guy hard enough to make her nails come off and have no DNA under them and no scratches on any guy and while it isn't impossible that a rape as violent as she described would leave no traces of DNA anywhere on her or in the bathroom it is probably not going to meet the threshhold of reasonable doubt.

And who is the DA going to charge at this point? If she all of a sudden decides she can now identify the 3 suspects, is that going to be believable after a month?

Sadly, this looks like another Tawana Brawley situation and sadly it looks like this woman and the black community are going to chose to believe in some kind of collosal cover up by the racist white power structure rather than the simple truth that this woman is messed up, was probably assaulted by someone else and needs help, not support for a false story.

[Paulo]

But it is sure looking like none of the guys at the party, however assholish they may have been, raped her...

Posted by: xxx | Monday, April 10, 2006 at 07:41 PM

I don't want to be redundant but as for me I have no doubt that the hired stripper definitely had sex, and it probably most likely resembled rape. I feel it could have been her boyfriend or anyone of a number of "Johns" she may have done earlier.

Face it, let's not sit around here like the Aruban legal people who ignore the obvious: A black stripper who works a club dancing gets paid $800 for two hours of work. She shows up looking like hell, then tries to stiff the little preppy boys. The stripper has a previous criminal record for something very related to this venture and she had made an additional report on an incident so closely related to this one that..."ah hell I'll sue those rich muther fockers..."

Once again, the dna's is in; the photos are in; a DA up for election. You do the math. Kind of reminds me of a judge in training, a retiring Chief of Police, with a national election in the same year.

[JL]

if you are a man, who has ever ordered a hooker or stripper...understand this situation...

my guess is that they were expecting a hot looking stripper to come by and got a sloppy mess instead, who may have had a bad attitude and tried in some way to rip them off/ or they felt that they didn't get what they we're paying for...they have words with the girl...who has an attitude..next thing you know, she leaves and is crying rape...it's bogus.

what if the people who are saying this is a hate crime flipped the script for a second...poor black stripper feels like she has been degraded...(hard to believe because if you are a stripper or a hooker, you should expect to get degraded throughout the course of your "work")...so what she does is try to pin a rape on some white kids attending a well known university...maybe the kids' parents are of prominent stature...i thinks it's hate and racism on the part of the stripper if you ask me...i can smell it a mile away. sorry if it's the unpopular opinion, but it just don't jive.

[FloridaPatty]

in point would be the Kobe Bryant suit. I really beleive that when a girl/woman says "stop", that means stop. On the whole, I am more supportive and sympathetic to the womans side of the issue than the males, but I really believe the woman in the Lacrosse case is an opportunist. Tears in the vagina can come from regular sex and not necessarily through force. I really believe she engaged in sexual activity before the party and figured to use the party to her advantage. Bottom line: if the boys are truly guilty, throw the book at them. No one should be exempt. Hope this helps a little.

Posted by: hobo | Tuesday, April 11, 2006 at 01:08 AM

Hey Hobo. Yeah, good points here, about the Kobe Bryant suit. *Ever been on the side of the law that DOESN'T have a dream team legal defense? It sucks. Case in point, O.J. Case in point, Kobe Bryant. His defense team started delving into her psychiatric background, sexual practices, past sexual behavior...I'm looking at it from a woman's perspective. Woman gets violated, calls the cops, reports it, state moves forward on a crime and the well funded legal team comes out with their $3000 an hour expert (court whore) who will testify to whatever they need. Your typical, average person would be better suited to bow out and just be okay with the fact that the crime was reported media wise. Who remembers the Kobe Bryant rape anyway? he's rebounded as predicted>>http://www.forbes.com/business/2004/09/03/cz_kb_0903kobe.html
...Despite the rape charges, Kobe is still idolized in Los Angeles and around the country. His jersey was the fifth best-selling NBA jersey last year. Bryant's deals with McDonald's (nyse: MCD - news - people ) and Ferrero's Nutella brand expired in 2003 and were not renewed. Even without those contracts, though, Bryant is still the NBA's second highest-paid endorser after LeBron James.

Back to the case... I pondered that carefully worded press conference regarding the DNA, did you notice that?

Another thing I would look for, scratch marks. What about those on any of the players?
The girl said this: According to Nifong, she claimed that the men robbed her and that she broke off several fake fingernails clawing one of her attackers.

What's in the bathroom besides broken fingernails?

Yes Hobo, rough sex and tearing is a possibility but to cry "rape" to say those words to cops and then go through a rape exam (can you say pain)and be identified as having anal bruising, tears, the girl had to be a nut case and should be thrown in the slammer, pay fines, publically apologize, IF
she lied. My gut tells me otherwise.

[Nice guy]

More questions about the duke rape: It’s about time you consider she lied.

If these boys were so drunk and out of control with lust, why didn’t they ejaculate? Not even one ejaculated?

If condoms were used, where are they? Where’s the empty box? Where are the wrappers? If these boys didn’t clean up the nails, why would they dispose of the condom wrappers? Where is the spermicidal lubricant?

If the stripper was violated by three men, then where is her DNA? Why isn’t there vaginal fluid on the bathroom rug? If she was “dry” where is her urine and blood? She claimed to have been anally assaulted, then where is her fecal material or scat smears? If she was violently orally penetrated, then where is her saliva and tears? Are people claiming that this woman, in complete panic, was capable of inhuman vaginal and anal sphincter control that no fluids dripped out because she made sure to lick up and swallow all of her saliva, “precum”, and ejaculate? If the boys cleaned up all of her vaginal fluids, blood, saliva, urine, and tears, then why didn’t they get rid of the nails?

**** Why did she go to her former attorney for advice, when the DA publicly and adamantly believes and supports her claim? Why would a poor working mother of two pay to seek her own legal advice, when the DA is free?!!! ***

The forensic nurse said that she had injuries consistent to her story, which means that she recently had sex, but there’s no way a nurse would be able to determine when or if the sex was consensual or not, there is normal bruising with consensual sex.

Why wasn't there skin, fibers, or hair under the stripper's fake nails?

If she lied about the bruises on her body and how she got them, and she lied to her family about her being a stripper, could she be lying about the rape? alibi was one of the excuses to make a false claim. Was the stripper on probation? Would her probation be revoked if she was arrested for public intoxication and under the influence of drugs when police was called to the store parking lot because she wouldn’t get out of the car? How long is someone on probation for larceny and evading police?

If the second stripper didn’t her anything, why is the DA claiming that the “drunken frat boys” heard anything? If the crime didn’t happen, how could they hear anything?

Why are people willing to look at the arrest record of 15 members of the entire 47 member team for reasons why they might have done something, but not into the stripper's arrest record for reasons why she made up the story.

The 911 caller about racial remarks identified a different house number, why is it being made to sound that it came from the lacrosse boys' house?

FBI 8% false claims of rape is derived from cases that were admitted to be false by the person making the claim, the percentage of false claims are closer to 30%. Between 1980 to 2000 33% of "convicted" rapist were found to be the wrong person identified by the "victim". How does this fit into the 8% or 2% figure of false accusations?

District Attorney Mike Nifong fueled the fires which tore the Durham community apart. The Duke lacrosse team claimed that no crime was committed, pictures prove the stripper was bruised before arriving at the party, the second stripper’s story coincided with the boys’ account of events, yet Nifong led a pack of wolves straight to the Duke campus to destroy these boys.

Although DNA voluntarily given by the lacrosse team doesn’t match any DNA found on the stripper’s body or clothes, gang threats against white students have already resulted and racial divides are even more polarized than ever before. Nifong’s desire for the spotlight will ripple through the community for years to come. District Attorney Mike Nifong should resign.

[Bruce Linder]

I'm often interested in the dog that didn't bark.

If there was no DNA evidence on /in the alleged rape victim due to condom use, was there DNA evidence / sperm on the floor of the bathroom where she was allegedly raped? They found her fingernails right, so the floor wasn't cleaned afterwards. A guy uses a condom, he doesn't take it home as a trophy. He takes it off and throws it in the wastebasket. Nothing in the wastebasket? Nothing dripped on the floor?

Granted the prosecution has not fully presented its findings, but if I'm the jury for this case, I want to see DNA on the victim or on the bathroom floor. And if there is a condom present, there better be DNA from the alleged rape victim as well.

[inmyhumbleopinion]

Bruce Linder asked: Nothing dripped on the floor?

DNA from one of the players that lived at 610 N. Buchanan was found on the floor. We don't know if the DNA came from semen or not.

There was also DNA on a towel found in or near the bathroom. It was a match to a second player that lived in the house. It could be that at least one of these two samples is semen because the question "Was the source of these DNA samples semen?" was met with deafening silence by the defense attorneys.

[inmyhumbleopinion]

Just read this:

http://www.newsobserver.com/100/story/427550.html

QUOTE:
The tests found DNA matches to two players, from a towel outside the bathroom and on another object, Cheshire said.

One sample was from a player's semen and another was a different type of DNA, Cheshire said. He said that was to be expected in a bathroom shared by the three men who lived in the house.

[Voice of Reason]

Florida Patty...

As for the code of silence and the lacrosse boys not coming forward (this is what the DA said in his flurry of press conferences when he thought he "had" those boys with "CERTAIN" DNA.... the facts are as follows:

FROM A NEWSWEEK Article - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12115147/site/newsweek/page/2/

if the three lacrosse captains who occupy the house had anything to hide, they didn't act like it. They cooperated in the search and voluntarily went down to the police station to give statements, without lawyers present. Their offer to take a lie-detector test was rebuffed by police.

The players OFFERED to take a lie detector. The boys shut up once the DA went public stating he KNEW that they raped her.

As for her fingernails - another great story. Several articles said her fake fingernails were found INSIDE her purse in the bathroom! She claims they were torn off in the struggle.... but yet no DNA under the nails and why the hell were they in the purse? If they were laying on the floor, I think the players would have disposed of them instead of leaving them around IF they were guilty....

[JUNIOR]

50 HORNY COLLEGE DUDES AREN'T GONNA PAY $800 TO JST LOOK!!! THEY HAD SEX WITH HER AND THATS FINAL, WHETHER CONSENSUAL OR NOT IT HAPPEND. I'VE BEEN TO PARTIS WITH STRIPPERS, 1 OUT OF HOW EVER MANY GUYS ARE GONNA HAVE SEX WITH THE FEMALE. ITS A FACT LIKE IT OR NOT.

[Kevin]

Here's another fact: most guys named junior aren't very smart. It's a fact, like it or not.

[bart]

"There was also DNA on a towel found in or near the bathroom. It was a match to a second player that lived in the house. It could be that at least one of these two samples is semen because the question "Was the source of these DNA samples semen?" was met with deafening silence by the defense attorneys."

Wow, semen was found in a male college students bathroom? Gee, what are the odds of THAT happening? Case closed.....

[manb4war]

[if the three lacrosse captains who occupy the house had anything to hide, they didn't act like it. They cooperated in the search and voluntarily went down to the police station to give statements, without lawyers present. Their offer to take a lie-detector test was rebuffed by police.]

What are they going to do, fight to the death? Cops come to YOUR home with a search warrant you let them in, period. Check out the probable cause affadavit

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke3.html

Fingernails were not found in her purse they were found where she said the attack took place. She left her makeup bag, cellphone and ID. They were all recovered during the search warrant, a portion of the money she claimed they took back was also recovered. The affidavit also mentions the team members using aliases when they reserved the dancers and when they arrived. They told the girls they were members of the track and baseball team. So here's some questions for you to answer:

1.What's the occassion? No holidays, the lacrosse season just started, no birthdays mentioned, etc; Who pays $800 for strippers on a casual occasion? You can go to the strip club and remain anonymous.

2.Why all the secrecy if you're just having some fun. Why would your identity be important to a hired exotic dancer? I've been to a few bachelor parties. I don't remember anyone saying, "hey, what's your name?"

The affidavit further goes on to say that the girl was examined in the emergency room by a physician and a specialized nurse (Forensic Sexual Assault Nurse)who confirmed her injuries vaginal and anal to be consistent with rape truama. So forget the DNA crap, there is clearly enough evidence in the case to prosecute these guys and from the looks of it they're both going to get about 15 years in prison. Let's hope the DA pursues the conspiracy to commit murder charges and put them UNDER the jail. This whole things stinks real bad and theres a lot more to it than what we're hearing. The email was sent anonymously to the police, I'm thinking by the coach who's resigned.

[John]

Assuming the accuser was indeed raped, can we be sure it didn't happen after she left the House?
The rape report was not made until hours later, and the first cop on the scene said she was passed out drunk.
If, indeed, she was as drunk as reported, could she not have her facts confused?
I know I have had some fuzzy memories after a night of libation.
It appears she has made at least one false ID as one of the players has a pretty good alibi for the time of the rape. He was, however the one who hired her. I think her memory is somewhat confused and that is why she made the ID for someone who almost certainly could not have been involved in the rape.
In addition to possible confusion, a person's credibility is based on their past actions. I am afraid that a stripper with a previous conviction for stealing a taxi and leading cops on a stolen car pursuit does not have a high degree of credibility in my book.
Its just a fact of life, college student at a prestigious University versus a convicted felon who is a stripper will bias the believability in favor of the accused, not the accuser.
These guys were roudy and probably out of line, but peeing on a tree and being drunk in public are not unusual events for college students. That behaviour does not automatically translate to rape. Sorry, I am having trouble being convinced the players are guilty. I just don't buy it. I don't think they did it, even if a rape did occur somewhere by someone.

[manb4war]

[The rape report was not made until hours later, and the first cop on the scene said she was passed out drunk.]

She "appeared" to be drunk is more like it. If she was drunk why was she not cited for public intoxication, why was no breathalyzer test administered to indicate blood alchohol levels? Secondly, it has already been confirmed that she was not intoxicated upon arriving to the party. When did she have time to consume that much alchohol? She was given a date rape drug of some kind, obviously. That would explain her being passed out in such a short time frame

http://www.4woman.gov/faq/rohypnol.htm#1

[Its just a fact of life, college student at a prestigious University versus a convicted felon who is a stripper will bias the believability in favor of the accused, not the accuser.]

Wow, that's about as racist a statement as I've heard. Where do you get the impression that a "prestigious school" equals sainthood? These guys are far from saints and quite a few of them have criminal records including the accused who has been convicted of "gay bashing". It never ceases to amaze me how white society relies on static stereotypes to shape their opinions and ignore reality. The reality is rich Duke students are afforded the benefit of the doubt and presumed innocent until proven guilty, while a BLACK college student who happens to be a part time exotic dancer is guilty until proven innocent. Peeing on a tree and getting drunk are not uncommon BUT neither is rape. The latter just happens to be one of those things the news doesn't report that often, could it be that the statistics don't favor the stereotype? 80% percent of the rapes reported are by white women perpetuated by white men. CBS doesn't consider that news though, I wonder why?

[WickOhio]

No DNA, no witnesses, drunk, felon = NO rape. Of course your Jacksons and your black students all believe this happened exactly like she explained. Problem is it's all falling apart. Not from the defense attorneys, but from this idiot DA who is dropping the ball. If she was white and attended Central NC would they still feel this way? The pressure will surely cripple her case. Next time maybe she will stay home and not attend a drunken party with 40 jocks.

[JohnnyFrat Boy]

Hey,
Anyone who has been around drunk male college athlete's wouldn't question anything about this case.

[richard Block]

The DA's turning up the pressure. If you want to break a wall of silence, put pressure on its weakest pt. When Finnery goes to DC Tuesday, he's going to find that his previous deal with the DC DA is history; he's going to trial there, I bet, unless he cooperates with folks in Durham. And the DNA tests, I bet, are purposely being delayed to make the players sweat.
Now, why wasn't Seligman's name on the list the team gave the police of players at the party? Why is the timeline so unbelievable for him. If, as the NY Times reports, he had forced oral sex with the victim, it would take only minutes--thus the need to keep all his receipts. Or, he is genuinely innocent. Who knows? And why was the house dark and quiet when police arrived, but 20 people came pouring out of it when the cabbie returned a second time 10-15 minutes later. Too many ?s remain. And don't be fooled by saying the alleged victim was passed out drunk. She was also clutching the steering wheel, afraid of anyone coming near her. Sounds like she was traumatized as well. Sooner or later, one of these players is going to have to tell police what he saw and knows--for better or for worse.

[rwilymz]

"manb" sure has a lot of questions for someone so naive. I'm not going to scour the list of responses to find every idiotic thing said; just a few will suffice.

1: underage students cannot go ogle naked chicks in a strip club. 21 to enter if there's alcohol there.
2: hiring a stripper is a right of passage in some, arguably most, quarters, and it becomes a special occasion in its own right.
3: it is uncommon to the point of "never" to cite anyone for public intoxication unless they're being rowdy and obnoxious at the same time. Being passed out in a car is neither rowdy nor obnoxious.
4: unless she were driving somewhere, or attempting to, there is no need for a breathalyzer.
5: it is not "obvious" she was given any drug -- that is merely your bias displaying itself.
6: she was taken to a detox/substance abuse center [read the 911 transcripts] where they found no tox apart from being "overserved" -- and this is where she made her claim of rape.
7: the SANE reported injuries "consistent with" sexual abuse or assault, not injuries FROM sexual abuse or assault. If you fall down on a sidewalk you will have injuries "consistent with" sexual abuse or assault.
8: all -- not some, not most, but ALL -- the objective evidence refuses to allow time for a "half hour rape"; even if the half hour is an emotionally expanded ten minutes, the objective evidence does not even allow for that to have occurred when the two men accused of rape were there.
9: for someone complaining because Crystal Magnum is being found guilty of false allegation until she proves herself innocent, you seem to be all too quick to find Finnerty guilty of rape because he rolled a queer in DC.

[richard]

As a "queer" who has been rolled, I can tell you that my attackers were prone to violence anytime their sexuality was questioned. The fear of appearing "queer" is what, studies have shown, triggers the violence. That's a long way from saying Finnerty committed a rape, but it does show that in matters where his sexuality/manhood are concerned, he reacts violently. (What if his racial slurs or the suggestion to use a broomstick were rejoined by "Shut-up faggot!"?) The fact remains, however, is that we don't have the facts. The DA seems quite smug and may have a smoking gun or two. And if the toxicology report shows that a date-rape drug was given to the alleged victim, the guilty parties, if there are any, may well go free because of her impaired memory. If that is the case--and it's a big "if"--then damage to their reputations is all that will follow the guilty. By the way, there was DA found under the fingernails, but it was inconclusive. The next test may be less so.

[rwilymz]

Richard, I'd like to hear more about these "studies" that show people get violent when their sexuality is questioned.

As a skinny, short, academically gifted nerd who used to get rolled, I can tell you that the people who rolled me only did so because their intellect was questioned.

Have we struck common theme yet? Gosh ... people who ... are easily ... picked on get ... picked on!! Whoda thunk!?

Now let me revert to my academically gifted mensa nature and remind people of a few things:

"May be" isn't "is" and they are not interchangeable. "What if" also isn't "is". Generalized studies, even if they exist [my sociology grad school theme was gender crap and I've never seen such things], are not a psychological profile of Finnerty and do not explain a thing about him -- even on the assumption that the studies exist. If the DA has a smoking gun or two he'd better divulge what they are during discovery or else he won't be able to use them, for in our legal system the defense attorney is allowed to know everything that the prosecution is going to allege, and who they will get to allege it, but the defense isn't required to return the favor -- something about rights of the accused and preventing tyranny or something.

And as I recall, there was also DNA found in Crystal Magnum's cootchie, that was "inconclusive" in that it didn't belong to any of the 46 white players at the party. Conclude what you will.

Any DA has enough facts to wisely back-burner this case. And just like it is rude and a miscarriage of justice to declare that an "out-call" escort can't get raped, it is also a miscarriage of justice to convict people of one crime simply because it's pretty certain they committed others. It seems that the frat boys' main crime here is being rich and white, in a town that is poor and half-black.

"Driving while black" is a common complaint among the "racial profiling" crowd. "Partying while rich", anyone? Does anybody see a Southern Speed Trap, updated for the sensitive 21st century?

[rb]

No one is saying any study explains anybody's behavior. That's the problem with folks in the social sciences--always profiling. But a U. GA study did find that those who exhibited violent homophobic behavior were turned on by pictures of naked men, etc. So, my point is only that FOX News and the right may canonize these boys, but it's not hard to imagine that they aren't what their defense lawyers make them out to be. Or, maybe they are. I just love how everybody's verdict is based on limited evidence that is pieced together to make sense only in terms of pre-existing prejudices. Just look at the remark by rwilmyz--"frat boys' main crime is being rich and white..." Evidently, the medical report and the victims i.d.s don't mean crap to someone of his ilk. Even if the ids are wrong, any DA would have to puruse an investigation if there is strong physical evidence of rape and the accuser makes what she claims are ids with "100 percent" certainty. Of course, the guy might be right. Jail populations bear him out. Rich white guys from elite frats aren't often found in them. But that hasn't anything to do with this case, except they're going to get the best damn lawyers justice can buy, like Clinton spin master Bennett. I would do the same, of course, but that doesn't mean we'll get the truth. Trials are not about justice; they're only about making a judgment. And yes, I do think as a white man that the judgment too often goes against the African American based on (pre)judgments and not justice.