Mary Winkler - No Bail On First Degree Murder Charge

Details here at the Crime Library. Also, speculation is that one possible defense would be post-partum depression.

"This is certainly one of the things we are looking into," he said. "Of course, she has a 1-year-old child, and we have certain information that lead us to believe that is something that needs to be investigated fully."

Farese described the demeanor of Mary Winkler as "very withdrawn, very quiet, overwhelmed," and discussed the likelihood of psychiatric exams for her.

"I think some type of evaluation would be expected in a case like this," he told the Jackson Sun.

Comments

[IMHERE]

I heard breifly this morning on one of the local radio stations that most husbands murder their wives, when the wives want to leave. Most wives murder their husbands because their husbands won't leave.

Post partum..touchy .. she shot him in the back didn't she?

[Sweetie]

Didn't they say she planned to do it, or was that just speculation or rumor? Why do wives/husbands usually kill their spouse? Well, there is money, cheating, or abuse of some sort. Postpartum depression, could be or a nervous breakdown. It will all come out in the end, she already confessed.

[chrys]

Should there EVER be bail on a murder charge? If the charge makes it - there has to be a lot of "stuff" out there to back it up. Good move judge!

[nova]

Looking at her on TV she doesnt look to me to be that upset. She looks like someone who did something and is glad she did it. She may have mental problems that led to the shooting. But she doesnt seem distraught about the event at all. Probably very pleased that he is dead.

[Lexy]

Stress and burnout among clergy wives is as high as for pastors.....and that's high! As resident 'holy woman' she's a walking target for everyone's unconscious expectations of what such a saint should be. There's no one providing pastoral care for most clergy wives. Most have no-one with whom they can 'let their hair down'.

Then there are the unfair expectations placed on the pastor's wife by 'the official women'. Sometimes pastor-husbands fail to inform 'call committees' that their wives are to be treated like everyone else.... their ministries will coincide with their own gifts and be within their own personal limits.

Many pastor's wives feel inhibited in pursuing their professional or hobby interests outside the Church,
they are assumed to be the pastor's 'unpaid assistant'.Read a survey which stated some pastor's wives wantd more privacy, some want to be thought of as an individual rather than as 'the pastor's wife', many say they do not have close friends in the church (the biggest single problem in the survey); the husband's over-busy work-schedule is viewed as a source of conflict; agreed that 'our family lives in a fishbowl with more expectations and increased pressures'

Clergy marital splits occur at the rate of 40-50 each year! It has been said that the church is one of the few institutions that 'shoots its wounded'. If a clergy marriage is strained, the pressures added by the church can be very unhelpful along with raising children. Clergy wives 'share their man' with other women, and as pastors are the last 'helping professionals' to regularly visit women alone in their homes, there are unique temptations to cope with.

I would fail as a pastor's wife :(

[annie]

Lexy

I think she should have you as her defence lawyer, as you would probably do as good a job as anybody for her.

I think that 'stress' should also be acceptable as a defence, because a lot of people are getting stressed out of their minds with the lives they lead.

[annie]

I also think that 'stress' should be talked about more, and that people be encouraged to come forward if they think they are suffering from it (especially men), and people taught to recognise it in themselves and others, and not be ashamed to admit to these feelings. A lot of lives could be saved!

[Sandee's Mother]

I think Mary Winkler is a fully certifiable NUT JOB

[caledonia]

JMHO here. I think she found out something devastating regarding her family and acted on it.

[Lexy]

I also think that 'stress' should be talked about more, and that people be encouraged to come forward if they think they are suffering from it (especially men), and people taught to recognise it in themselves and others, and not be ashamed to admit to these feelings. A lot of lives could be saved!

Posted by: annie | Thursday, March 30, 2006 at 06:32 PM

Good post Annie and I agree. We all have different tolerances to stress, and I suspect she was in great pain and despair to commit this act. Even pastor's wives are tempted by the serpent.

[Lynn]

I am a member of this church and also attended the university Mary and Matthew attended. My guess at this time would be that she was very conflicted in some way because of her beliefs. Yet, she was not seeing them in action in her marriage some way. I cannot speculate how or what the conflict was but, I believe that there really may have been something that was very much not right there.
I do feel for ministers and their wives because they often feel that they cannot have any problems or exhibit any weaknesses to the people who are in the church (their spiritual family). This often leads them to keep problems or weaknesses secret!!! Then the way they deal with this stress can sometimes mean leading a double life. An example is the minister who is caught up in porn. When the problem is not dealt with; the things they turn to are secrets that often make matters worse. Then they are caught in a catch 22 because to come forth would mean loss of job and spiritual family and perhaps physically family . So, you see there is a great deal to lose by just stating that one has a problem!
I do not know the details but, I am praying for this woman and her family! Because I feel that she had to be dealing with something very horrible to have done what she did. Because from what I can see she was definitely taught not to hurt someone muchless kill, so; it would take something almost beyond belief for her to act in such a way I think. In fact, we may never know the entire story because of her own shame and guilt. Also, the desire to protect her children could cause her to refrain from telling all to keep them from knowing the truth!! For example post partum would lay the entire blame on her illness and therefore render the children's Dad still blameless and alright in the eyes of the children wouldn't it?! Just a thought...................................

[abigail]

Just perused and may have missed some things, but is "stress" a reason to commit murder? My brother is a minister as is his wife and she feels insecurity about what he does and how successful he is in their lives (they own 2 businesses as well), but she is equal in all of it, but obviously she does not feel that way from her feelings she has expessed to me. Don't know why as my brother is so smitten with her and loves her sooooo much. As far as this case goes, well, it makes me think something else was going on with the pastor or she is just completly off her rocker.

[tysgram]

Lynn-What a wonderful post. I hope everyone in your church feels this way. You know the family first hand and obviously in your heart you still feel compassion. About 15 years ago our Pastor had an affair with one of the congregation, our town found out before she did and his wife was not only devastated but could hardly show her face in church or anywhere for that matter because she was so ashamed. Our congregation stood by her and helped her, but who knows what could have happened if she found out and the church didn't? It's good to know some people don't judge until thsy get all the facts.

[anniekwa]

Mary's life changed drastically over the last year. She moved to a new area, she returned to college, she had a baby and was building a new church. That is a lot for anyone to handle. What I find interesting is the timing and the premeditation aspects to this case. It CLEARLY was not a crime of passion. It was well thought out and executed. The timing was planned. They asked neighbors if they had heard any shots and all came back saying "no". A shotgun makes a whole lot of noise! So the timing was such that probably most people were not at home.

Based on what the ME reported, he was shot and basically bled to death because of the internal wounds resulting from the buck shot splatter. This leads me to believe there might have been a possibility to save his life right after the shot, had a call to 911 been placed immediately. In a crime of passion, often remorse sets in immediately and the accused is the one that makes that call. Mary did not. Instead she fled with her daughters, who by the way have been confirmed to have been in the house at the time the shooting occurred. I don't doubt that Mary loves her girls, but wouldn't you be concerned about having your children in the house when you planned to shoot your husband? Given she shot him and then took off, I have to wonder if she hadn't already packed up the car with the girls "things" before fleeing. If so, this will play into the prosecutions case for premeditation.

Mary looks vacant to me when I see her on the TV. I have no doubt that she isn't focusing on the "important things" regarding this case (as her lawyers put it). I suspect she really doesn't want to relive it. She does seem to me to be a very conflicted woman. She grew up the daughter of a minister and clearly has been raised with the 10 commandments drilled into her. I believe she really is "shutting down" at the moment. I think she probably isn't focussed because the reality is too dismal to bear.

I did not get the impression after listening carefully to wording and phraseology of her lawyers that there would be any implication of "abuse" or anything like what had been speculated. I truly believe they are going to head more toward a post-partum depression or mental-instability (diminishment) approach and not to necessarily protect the girls. I feel they know that is their best approach.

I think annie and Lexy above said it best. Stress is more serious than people really understand. I think it is a big factor in all of this. To me, Mary snapped. Yes she may have premeditated things, but I believe she was not even aware she was doing it. She reminds me of someone that thinks they are "dreaming" when they are actually living the dream (or in this case nightmare). I think she lost some sense of reality over the last year. Call that what you may, but that is the impression I have of this woman.

Does anyone else understand what the "strained" relationship with her father is about? I have heard the media mention that, but also heard her father was responsible for helping her get legal representation. Was this estrangement also playing into her stress level?

[Belsma]

I think many daughters have "strained" relationships with their fathers, but I'm not sure what it means in this particular case. Perhaps the "strain" was about him--the pastor. Maybe daddy did not approve for whatever reason. Have to wait and see if we find out.

[hobo]

This woman was raised with some very high and stringent values and her husband violated that model somehow. The fact that her shot him in the back implies that in her mind he "turned his back" on her and this was her way of responding to that ultimate insult. I've picked up considerations of adultry and molestation from other sites, and if either one of these could have been the issue, it would lend to some understanding of the crime. My heart really goes out to this woman.
One comment regarding the shotgun and buckshot: if it was indeed buckshot that hit the guy at that distance, there would probably be little that could have been done to save him even if she had suddenly become remorseful. Buckshot, depending on the number of pellets in the round, is deadly because of the scatter effect. "Double OO buck" has eight large pellets about 4-5 millimeters in diameter and depending on the length of the barrel of the gun and distance of the target, can spread to a pattern of about 12 inches. Upon impact, the semi-soft pellets flatten to become larger and cause more damage.

[jadensmokes]

Hobo, Thanks for the graphic description of the effects of a shotgun.
I think stress could lead to murder, but more likely would lead to suicide. JMO.

[Del Allegood]

Please see http://npublici.blogspot.com

[Righty-Tighty]

I had post-partum. I didn't know it of course, and I cannot tell you of all the awful things that went through my mind. I had severe paranoia. From my perspective, the things I had imagined were so awful, I would never haved breathed a word to anyone, and still don't discuss it. A close friend also confided in me about her post-partum. She said she had thoughts of putting her baby in the oven. This is a wonderful loving mother and wife we are talking about...not a crack-head. Post partum is horrible. Even after recovery, the mother is ashamed. No telling what was going through Mary's head--- if it was post partum. It is mentally and emotionally torturous. I don't think anyone can understabd unless they have experienced it.

[anniekwa]

Thank you hobo for the information on buck-shot effects and Righty-Tighty about your experience and your friend's experience with post-partum depression. Personally, I believe that is the most likely explanation in this case. I highly doubt there was abuse because examinations would have taken place right in Alabama had that been the case. They would have wanted evidence gathered for that kind of a "motive". I have not heard that the girls or her were examined. If she truly entered a plea of abuse, that would have been one of the first things that would have happened (a physical exam for all of them) to see if there was any data to support her plea.

I think she may have had some sort of paranoid episode, maybe even mistaken him for someone else, although the fact that she had opportunity to put a few things in place ahead of time (thus the premeditation part of this case), leads me to believe she was experiencing some sort of paranoid or delusional thinking.

I have to admit that she really looks young and it makes me sad to think her life has been so turned upside down like this. Yet at the same time, I am saddened by the thought that such a promising young man had his life ended so horribly and the effects this has on his daughters and his parents/siblings, etc. It really is a tragic story.

[abigail]

I thought the whole post partem thing involved hurting the child(ren). Thank God she did not, but I don't think PPD is the case here. I don't know. I'm so curious as to what happend and why. I am sad as well. Those girls lost both parents. WHY?

[Florida Patty]

Heard the examiner in a telephone interview. He stated it was shotgun blast to the center back at a range of 3-4 feet.

Millions of women experience stress at high levels and don't kill their husbands.

With no prior history (that we know of ) the office cooler theory tends to lean towards a mental breakdown or "snapped". Imagine:

New baby, new church, new location, new people, going back to school to finish her schooling (remember she dropped out to get married) so that makes:

Time for the baby
Time for the house and moving and settling in.
Time to meet new people and be hostess.
Time to finish college.
Time to support her husband's leadership role.
Time to be the example as the "first lady" of the church.

Where is the time for Mary? Who supports Mary? Chemical imbalance would only exhaserate the problem.

As I understand it, her inlaws were from a long line of popular preachers and religious writers with her father in law actually being an adjunct prof. at the University where they attended.

Pressures? Ya think?

[Florida Patty]

Heard the examiner in a telephone interview. He stated it was shotgun blast to the center back at a range of 3-4 feet.

Millions of women experience stress at high levels and don't kill their husbands.

With no prior history (that we know of ) the office cooler theory tends to lean towards a mental breakdown or "snapped". Imagine:

New baby, new church, new location, new people, going back to school to finish her schooling (remember she dropped out to get married) so that makes:

Time for the baby
Time for the house and moving and settling in.
Time to meet new people and be hostess.
Time to finish college.
Time to support her husband's leadership role.
Time to be the example as the "first lady" of the church.

Where is the time for Mary? Who supports Mary? Chemical imbalance would only exhaserbate the problem.

As I understand it, her inlaws were from a long line of popular preachers and religious writers with her father in law actually being an adjunct prof. at the University where they attended.

Pressures? Ya think?

[anniekwa]

Florida Patty, thanks for your post. That basically is what I tried to express above but less eloquently. I agree that she had unbelievable pressures and expectations to live under. Well said my dear!

[Sarah]

There have been few stories that have caught my attention so much as this story.
Perhaps it is because I was a minister's wife for 27 years and saw so much go on behind closed doors, church doors and parsonage doors!!
I won't go into the details about why I got out but I am just go grateful that I was able to get out and support myself after those long years.
The emotional emptiness that I found in churches is pretty common because it seems that all too many church members have a form of godliness rather than the power.
I believe Mary will come out OK!!
It is interesting too that this happened on the first day that she was a substitute teacher.
Did he not want her to work or was the pressure of work one more stone that was too heavy to bear!

[anniekwa]

Sarah, I found the timing interesting as well. I didn't get the impression he was against her working because she had been going through that process for a while (applied some time ago, but was just called in recently). Also he seemed to support her returning to school. I suspect is was just one more stone too heavy in this case.

I have no doubt that being a minister's wife is probably one of the most difficult and stressful possitions anyone can be in, especially in a world so full of evil and darkness. I just pray for all of them (his family, Mary and her family) because this is such a tragic case.

[FloridaPatty]

Florida Patty, thanks for your post. That basically is what I tried to express above but less eloquently. I agree that she had unbelievable pressures and expectations to live under. Well said my dear!

Posted by: anniekwa | Saturday, April 01, 2006 at 02:19 PM

>>Thank you Annie.

.....................................................................
thought the whole post partem thing involved hurting the child(ren). Thank God she did not, but I don't think PPD is the case here. I don't know. I'm so curious as to what happend and why. I am sad as well. Those girls lost both parents. WHY?

Posted by: abigail | Saturday, April 01, 2006 at 12:50 AM

>> Postpartum depression does not involve hurting the children as an indicator. http://healthyminds.org/postpartumdepression.cfm

(and when I read that I thought to myself "talk about high expectations and not feeling like you are good enough, this just might be part of it).
...............................

A story I know.
A family moved to another state just after she delivered their first child. This was his first job as THE minister, not youth minister, not associate minister, THE main guy. He was so eager to do a good job that everytime a call came to his house, he went out the door. His young wife was at home with a new baby. They had another child and then another child. He kept up the pace.

A co-worker of mine is also a preacher's wife. She told me the other day "he comes home, he's not a preacher anymore he's a man" and she laughed. I can't say the same thing for the above story as it turned out, he was maxed out but still juggling all the roles. Eventually, she had a breakdown.
She didn't shoot her husband but no one in a million years would have ever believed this woman who sewed her on clothes, baked everything homemade and also worked full time would leave her family, have an affair and start drinking.

If I was a grad student this event would be my Master's Thesus. They always say the things we do not know behind closed doors. Before I condemn Mary Winkler, I'd like to see what it was like to walk a mile in her moccasins.

[Sarah]

Florida Patti: You said it well. Most people have no clue what goes on in all too many church houses and parsonages.
I have a feeling that there are many other minister's wives that feel the same way as I do...only I was able to finally get out after I had just too much!!
I think it is very hard to be yourself when so much is riding on your every move.
I am just believing that the scales will fall on her side and she will be lifted up so the world can get a glimpse of what goes on behind closed doors.
In this particular picture of her I see a deep thinking, thoughtful person, not a hardened criminal.
I believe with God's help she will come out alright.
I think it would be wonderful if a fund could be set up for her because she will need help when she is on her own.

[FloridaPatty]

Florida Patti: You said it well. Most people have no clue what goes on in all too many church houses and parsonages.
I have a feeling that there are many other minister's wives that feel the same way as I do...only I was able to finally get out after I had just too much!!
I think it is very hard to be yourself when so much is riding on your every move.
I am just believing that the scales will fall on her side and she will be lifted up so the world can get a glimpse of what goes on behind closed doors.
In this particular picture of her I see a deep thinking, thoughtful person, not a hardened criminal.
I believe with God's help she will come out alright.
I think it would be wonderful if a fund could be set up for her because she will need help when she is on her own.

Posted by: Sarah | Sunday, April 02, 2006 at 01:13 AM

Good thoughts Sarah. She isn't a hardened criminal she's hardly a criminal.

It's Sunday and I imagine this woman is playing over in her head that only two weeks ago she was up and getting the girls ready and planning her week and month and all the things that must be done.

I've read numerous articles regarding this case from around the nation. The theme is the same. What happened to cause this woman to do what she did? This is one trial I will be watching.

*and I love her attorney's style. Very semantically inclined!

[Sarah]

Thank you for your response, Florida Patti.
Unless a person has lived in the minister's wife role you have no clue the stage that is set and the images that are given that are so often false.
I think what we need to do is continue to lift Mary up in prayer and know that God can turn this around to her favor and she can come out of this in such a way as to give her a life that she should have!!!
Her demeanor is changing from picture to picture. I see a thoughtful, caring person in this picture and one that is going to be OK.

[abigail]

Why did she not turn to God when she was having these feelings? If she was stressed and overwhelmed why could she have not turned to someone? Anger and self pitty are sins are they not? She could have turned to her church family if she needed help. Her children have now lost both parents. I actually hope she had a valid reason for this. I'm sickened by the thought he may have been abusing them, but that's the only reason I would do something like that. But I would not, I would just beat the crap out of him and leave. What has she got now? She obviously is not living the "pastors wife" life now.
I know I'll probably get blasted for my post, but those kids, those girls....what was she thinking?

[Florida Patty]

Abigail I don't think she was thinking. I said in an earlier post that millions of women get upset every day, millions are stressed and depressed and they don't kill their husbands. I think I could handle a cheating husband, a drunkard, even being knocked around a little, but that's just me (and my husband is the most gentle man you could ever meet) but lay one hand on my children and I have no doubt a side to me would come out that would be very very scarey and very ugly. We all have our buttons.

[Carol]

Cheers to those individuals who are at least giving Mary Winkler some objectivity in their assessments. I do believe, however, that the public should be minding its own business until all of the facts are in and presented in court. All of this idle speculation boils down to nothing more than gossip. Let's wait for the story to unfold before making any assumptions. Perhaps we, the public, will never know the full story and if we don't, so what? There are three innocent lives at stake here. Why does the public think that it has the right to know anything and everything about a tragic situation when such information will only serve to further damage the lives of those children?

Carol

[Mac]

Consider this: People who don't know the family should be aware that Matthew Winkler’s father, Dan Winkler, is a true-to-life "Hail, Fire and Brimstone" fundamentalist preacher from the South. I know because I, along with many other Church members from the Beltline Church of Christ (Decatur, AL) were subjected to his guilt and fear ridden sermons for nearly 10 years. We are talking about a man who has serious, deep-seeded issues with control and power. Subjecting your family to this control and instilling fear in them and demanding they be "Perfect" as Christ was, is bound to backfire on you somewhere down the road (directly or indirectly). I feel sorry for Mary and Matthew’s children now because they will have to endure the same upbringing with Mr. Winkler Sr. I’m sure he’ll dish out the same destructive child rearing tactics he forcefully shoved down the throats of his own family and pass it along to his grandchildren. Does God really find favor with this destructive way of life? Does He smile when Church members go away from sermons feeling worthless and uninspired because the Preacher continually reminds them of how “sinful” they are??? Mary Winkler is the product of a repressed Church of Christ person who has a list of terrible things that happened to her throughout life which would be difficult for anyone to endure and yet, as a preachers wife you have to always remain perfect and have your “frozen smile” on for everyone to observe. It’s still not an excuse to kill someone. The Church at Selmer should be ashamed of itself for publicly announcing they support Mary 100%. You’re doing this because you’re being controlled people- controlled by a bunch of Elders who think they know what’s best for you and who don’t want you to “think” for yourselves. Trust me, no one around the country is saying, “ Wow, look at those wonderful, forgiving, church people in Selmer! My what an example they have set for the world.” It’s quite the opposite. You appear as deeply disturbed people who have forgiven someone who committed a cold-blooded murder without even knowing the facts. Would you have been so forgiving if Matthew had been the one to kill Mary???? I seriously doubt it. God is not watching you with a microscope people. You don’t have to feel like miserable sinners 7 days a week. You can think for yourselves. Let’s hope this destructive cycle of "Fear and Guilt Christianity will soon come to an end. Please pray for those three little girls. They are the ones who are going to suffer the most.