Natalee Holloway Hysteria

Update: JVDS blog has a summary of Joran VDS on the radio in Aruba.

Well, that's an entirely different matter which has gone to a point even I don't understand. Maybe we'll discuss it later, but for now the rumor is Jopran Van Der Sloot may also be doing a Larry King.

I wonder if Bob Costas will be sitting in.

Who?

Nevermind.

Update: From email - looks like Joran's sneakers are turning out and up in this image.

Comments

[FloridaPatty]

Skeptic we are not talking about diamonds and jogging in Central Park nor driving your car through a bad neighborhood, we're talking about
many girls on many nights in a very popular club that has many tourists coming to it. The probability out of all of those tourists (it would be fair to say millions of women) who come to a club and dance on the stage (that is the purpose of the stage in that club) and taking a belly shot (which today is the Pina Colada of the 1970's) is no invitation for a crime. That is what we are talking about. And we don't even have proof a crime was committed but by the absence of her body we can conclude she was abducted. Why? People who plan to leave do not apply for college, select their roomates, purchase goods for the dorm and set their sights for the first semester of their freshman year. In the states, this kind of situation is precisely what criminal investigations are built on.

[Skye]

Joran is a media mule pulling the media plow to haul the Kalpoe brothers to slaughter house.

[jackson80]

thanks and c u all later. gotta go. boss is coming!

[FloridaPatty]

Jackson80 I'm 46 years old and the mother of two. My son graduated last year the same as Joran did. Natalie disappeared the same night my family was hosting a huge party for my son...in honor of his graduation. I do feel for his mother. It would kill me to hear these things about my son. But my son has never:

Gambled in a casino. Disparaged women on his website. Posted pictures of himself in provocative poses with women, bragged in school about his conquests so loudly the teacher had to call him on it, they are simply two different boys.

My sense of Joran is that he has a sense of entitlement that he has learned by his upbringing. His family had clout on that island both at school (via his mother teaching there) and the community (via his father's position) and also having his father take him to the casino with him.

In our family, quality time between father and son is not going to the local casino and letting son use an open line of credit with pop.

[skepticynic]

That is true, but no one would ever suggest that your stupidity in any way mitigates the crime of the carjacking...they wouldn't say, well, since the person was driving through a bad neighborhood the criminal is going to get less time or maybe we will even let him off the hook.

Where in cases of rape, the behavior of the victim is almost always used as a mitigating factor, if you were acting stupid or making risky decisions then you are either not believed AT ALL or you're rapist is given a slap on the wrist.

I posed a recent case in NY and never got any response..the woman was extremely intoxicated, she stayed out by herself after 3am when her roommate went home, went to another bar by herself....isn't she at fault for whatever happened to her?

But of course no one answered because her body was found nude, dumped by the side of the road, her genitals were slit open and her entire face was wraped in clear tape...so no one is going to say she deserved it...but if she had shown up alive and said she was raped it would be a totally different story.

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at 12:15 PM

Actually, XXX, a defense lawyer WOULD bring up unmitigated stupidity on my part if I did this because it is their job to paint their clients in the best light--and a carjacker will probably not get much time, anyways. Guilty or not, he/she will try to make it the victim's fault. We do know this is not the case. The woman who got murdered certainly did not deserve what happened, but a defense attorney would have to "prove" that she had a certain level of responsibility...and make her out to be at fault for not taking precautions. No one deserves it when a crime is committed against them, but in court, someone will have to represent the defendant and this is what will happen. However, as MBMom states, it does not matter if the victim was an angel or devil. We should be far more victim-centric than our CJ system is.

This case is different because there is NO proof of anything other than "she left with him." We do not know, at this juncture, if there is a crime victim and this is what people are stressing. So she left with J2K...This means squat--Ted Bundy was only the "last one seen with" ONCE. How many did he kill--35, 40, maybe more? In Natalee's case, we have no forensics, we have nothing to even show if she is dead or alive. We do have three kids on the island who lied and changed stories. We have 123 (or so) kids here in the States who lied and changed stories. We have chaperones who refuse to speak, thereby lying by omission. We have parents who lied. We have a town hell-bent on appearances. We have a police force that bungled. We are, sadly enough, no closer to the truth than we were nine months ago.

Jackson, you make a lot of ASS-umptions about my hatred of women. How do you know I am not one? Not once did I say Nat is at fault, however I did say find proof of a crime first before making crack judgments.

[xxx]

We all know there isn't enough evidence against the suspects to bring them to trial or convict them.

What I can't understand and find sickening is that the presumption of innocence is granted only to the suspects not to the missing girl.

Countless people "know" she wanted sex with Joran or all three because she 'willingly' got in the car, they know she wasn't a virgin but was a slut because she let Joran and a MB boy do a body shot off of her, they know she wasn't a virgin because she wore too much make up and her shirt was short, they know she wanted sex because the admitted liar said so.

Why doesn't Natalee, who isn't accused of a crime, deserve the presumption that she was a nice, decent girl and no one knows what her intention was, but there is certainly no evidence that she was a tramp or that she intended to have sex with 3 virtual strangers?

Why is it okay to assassinate the character of the missing girl but a horrible injustice to question the testimony and motivations and character of the 3 known and admitted liars?

[skepticynic]

Patty, I agree wholeheartedly and do not believe Natalee ran off. If she truly made those comments about her mother, she was drinking. She was off to college where she could be her own person. I do not think she ran away, though she was highly intelligent and probably could have. The issue with this case is no evidence of a crime happening. It would be much easier if we found torn clothing, blood droplets or signs of a struggle on the beach but we have zip. My thoughts are that she possibly drowned. People may bring up the "go swimming in clothes" but having been a kid once, drinking makes people think "hey, what a great idea." Plus they do have people picking up the beaches and nice clothes are a good find. If she was drinking or drugging, it would not take much to think "hey, that is cool," venture into the water, tire and drown. I know those native to Aruba can tell us about the tides and winds, as I cannot. If conditions are right though, we would never see her again.

Belly/body shots have actually been around for a long time, at least since the 80s. However I have seen them (in Carlos and Charlies) done with tequila--the accoutrements are rubbed on the willing body and licked off post shot. This bar does encourage the pre-hookup behavior of booty dancing and having strangers lick you (ewww.)

In no way did I imply that Joran was innocent of wrongdoing--he was a bastard to her and fully admitted that much (40-year-old men still behave that way on the singles scene.) However, I have to reserve judgment in one direction or the other until we have something concrete to go on. nat could have been the victim of a tragic accident, and that is no reason to go ruining lives.

[Skye]

IF she were the victim of an accident there would be NO reason for Joran to lie about it. He casts the opinion of guilty on himself.

[skepticynic]

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at 12:48 PM

Frankly, it doesn't matter if she was a squeaky clean virgin or a raging turbo-slut. If a crime was committed against her, then it should not matter. A former boss said once "perception is reality." People do not know what she was really like--but people can and will make assumptions when they have little to go on.

I don't think MOST people are making assumptions about Natalee's character. However, like me, they are not going to go by the "she left with them, they lied, they are guilty" lynch mob mentality that often pervades BBs. Not one person has told the truth in this case. I wonder what Joran was hiding. I wonder what the MB kids are hiding. I wonder why the chaperones won't roger up already and admit they failed to keep their charges safe. I am not going to base it on what Nat wore, or did, or said (I brought it up in an earlier post only to raise the idea of culture--one person's "cute outfit" is another person's "trashy.") When I hear Joran slip up, then I will think he knows more. When I hear the MBers who changed their stories speak, then I will go in that direction.

Right now you cannot rule out anyone or anything, and that is a pretty big circle.

PS--From my kid days, I can say that you are not a slut just because you are a non-virgin and there were plenty of "technical virgins" that fall into slut-land. ;) Don't even get me started on the man-whores.

[skepticynic]

Skye, I agree there is no reason to lie--unless an accident happened after he left and he knows nothing about it.

[xxx]

I don't think MOST people are making assumptions about Natalee's character.
____________-

No, not most people in general but most people who feel the suspects are innocent and their lies are innocent seem coincidentally to believe that Natalee was a slut who fully intended to have sex with one or all of the boys and who also coincidentally believe that her behavior in the bar alone is enough to convince them she was a slut who wanted sex.

They are I suspect the same people who would never take a live woman's word that she was raped unless she was covered head to toe in bruises, totally sober and in her own house when attacked by a stranger...anything else they would consider 'buyer's remorse'

[Gary]

The real problem with prosecuting Natalee defendants is that no one knows which one or ones is guilty of raping and killing her. Natalee was certainly raped and killed by the defendants and if there was only one suspect, that person could be successfully prosecuted--at least in the U.S. However, even in the U.S., the Natalee defendants could get off simply by blaming each other

That is what they are currently doing. Joran is hinting that perhaps Joran or Satish might have gone back to the beach and killed Natalee, and they in turn say that they never had any contact with Natalee accept for providing a ride for them to the beach.

My person guess is that they ALL raped Natalee early in the morning and that it is impossible to know for sure which one or ones actually killed Natalee. I personally favor Joran murdering Natalee alone since the Kalpoe brothers have not been constantly changing there story as Joran has.

[wreck]

I still don't understand many people's here sense of logic. Many want to hold out for the possibility that Natalee drowned or died as the result of an OD. That would certainly be a plausible possibility IF Joran was touting a story that Natalee was really out of it and acting out of control or even the opposite of passing out. Instead, Joran says in his interview that Natalee was "just fine" and acting rationally. Joran is blowing that theory out of the water. Joran's best defense would be to claim she was crazy drunk.
I don't think you can buy the drowning/OD story without calling Joran a liar again. It just doesn't jibe.

[jackson80]

thanks Patty, but i see some of what they call "mirroring" in your picture of Joran. You may not see a lot of your son in Joran, but you strongly identify with the mother-son relationship and how you see Joran as a son of Anita. My point is, that the senior sloot has abused Anita over the years, and the sick puppy son, had no other example except to see his mother abused. In your family, this not the case. In Joran's family, the father-son trips to the casino didnt include Anita. Anita was looked upon to support the family as the senior sloot drifted from job to job. Believe me it is quite a comedown to go from the Netherlands to one of the semi-independent ABC islands near South America as an attorney. The senior sloot's downward career was just another way for the senior sloot to abuse Anita. That did not happen in your family. What they have created is now a very sick puppy and it is good that he is giving interviews, and, possibly reading this blog right now, because he needs help and he cant change the script even if he wanted to. His narcissism and hatred of women is now hard copied into his behavior along with his wish to also be a victim as a method of manipulating public opinion. The most recent, but not the clearest, example of such a ciminal personality is Scott Petersen and his web of lies and hatred.

[Pearly]

OK Joran says SATISH PICKED HIM UP. That is FINAL, right? So, that leaves Deepak at home online, right? Therefor, Satish did it, right?

[jackson80]

Skept, your bias gives you away. You try to appear rational, but you never let up about the MB kids and the chaperones. I know for a fact that you have never met any of them, ever read their statements given to the police, and you are just imaging that they somehow in your mind, have changed their story. Subtle approach, but you are a hater.

[skepticynic]

Gary, that would be likely if hauling and getting rid of a dead body was as easy as many think it is. Aruba is not very big, most islands are made of rock which makes burial extremely difficult. This is the primary reason I lean toward a drowning accident--there is zero evidence of crime, which is virtually impossible.

XXX--she could have wanted to have sex that night and it still would not make her a slut. It would not (and should not) have mattered if she specifically went out to "hook up." However, I understand where you are coming from. Most people I know who question Joran's guilt do not think badly of Natalee and do not think she did anything to merit a crime. They question if a crime took place. You are right about how some people think though...and I know people who were attacked WITH bruises and injuries who bought the attacker's stories; I am not saying this without personal experience.

[skepticynic]

Wreck, it would not take Natalee to be "completely out of it" to result in a drowning. She could have been stone cold sober, and tired. The lack of any kind of evidence combined with how hard it is to move/eliminate a corpse is what makes me wonder about both murder and accidental death from drugs or alcohol.

Jackson, I have read just about everything about the case and not one person has been straight arrow about it. Biased? Yep--towards the truth, without railroading anyone in the process. In other words, if Joran did it, throw the book at him. If one of the kids back home did it, throw the book at him. If a stranger did it, throw the book at him. If no one did it, stop finding places to throw the book.

[jackson80]

but you still have to admit, that you dont know one MB kid, and you have never read any of their official statements to the police or any later statements that changed their stories. Dont play fast and loose with the accusations if you dont have the firepower to back it up. That puts you in the hater category. Why hate MB kids, just your transferance of hatred from Nat to MB.

[xxx]

Sorry, the drowning idea doesn't hold up.

If she was sober, she isn't going swimming in a blue jean skirt and top. Since no clothing or shoes was found, we can assume she didn't take off any of her clothes to go swimming.

If she was drunk enough to jump in the water in all her clothes then Joran's statements about her level of intoxication are, again, more lies and one must wonder since he claims he's now telling the truth, why he would be still lying and then why any of his current version of the truth should be believed.

To assume that she was sober, went swimming in all her clothes or her clothes were stolen, and that the suspects made up a detailed lie about what happened is TOO MANY IMPLAUSIBLE things happening in a single case. It is not believable.

[skepticynic]

Jackson, you are really reaching here.

A long time ago, on Greta no less, two kids saw her return to the hotel. The stories later changed. They were interviewed by Greta on Fox in the first few days, when two of them said they saw her later that night after leaving the bar. Later the same kids said for another show that she never came home. Then they sank into oblivion...

Know the MB kids? We don't even know Natalee, Jackson! Did she really want to be a doctor, or did she want to act? Was she a sweetie, a smartass, or a little of both? What was her favorite cereal, or favorite subject? Did she like to sing cheesy songs in the shower while getting ready for school? Did she like animals and what were her favorites? You know, silly little things that make her HER. She was probably the least "humanized" missing person I have ever seen on the news...a "supersweetie" who only appeared in about five pics.

[jackson80]

do you have the names, of course not. only in your imagination. your rant about Natalee is very revealing.

[xxx]

I guess Joran and the Kalpoe's lawyers must have decided the fact that there were eye witnesses who claimed to have seen Natalee at the hotel was an irrelevant detail and so don't bother mentioning the fact.

I don't believe this was ever said, let alone on any TV program.

[skepticynic]

XXX, I concur but making a body go ***poof*** a la David Copperfield is just as implausible.

I was saying that she would not have to be bed-sh*tting drunk to drown. If she was tired, she could have without touching a drop. However, we know she drank that night. Swimming in clothes doesn't make sense to a sober person, but someone who...say...had a shot of 151 among other things may think it is fine. If she had nothing on under her top she may have chosen to wear it. Who knows--I have heard more than one person (after doing something really dumb) say it sounded like a good idea at the time...

Nothing in this case has made sense from the get-go...we are all just really batting ideas around and no one has any real knowledge. Guess most will just have to agree to disagree. :)

[jackson80]

the fact of the matter stands. you do not know MB kids enough to make that accusation.
your statements are laced with "ifs" ands or buts. take away the "ifs" and you say nothing.

[jackson80]

we are all handicapped because the ALE is sitting on, hasnt found, or inadvertently destroyed the evidence, we have no court transcripts, and no expert has had a chance to review the evidence.
however, the number of Natalee haters here are attracted to hate women, remain anonymous in the blog setting, and are drawn to Joran's personality which is expressed as hate. These haters are more agitated today because of their concern that Joran will somehow slip up in the interview today, tomorrow, or maybe on Larry King. Funny how the haters also seem to hate Greta, Nancy and the other gal on MSNBC as well as John Walsh, or Texas Equusearch, when in reality, they really hate their own mothers because they cant measure up.

[skepticynic]

the fact of the matter stands. you do not know MB kids enough to make that accusation.
your statements are laced with "ifs" ands or buts. take away the "ifs" and you say nothing.

Posted by: jackson80 | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at 01:48 PM

As do you. You are assuming that he is lying now. He may be--he may not be.

And if I had more time, I would spend the time digging for the transcript. It was with Greta, so someone else can do it. I am not the only person who had seen this but a good list of interview quips, quotes and sources are here:

http://www.scrux.com/natalee/studentquotes.htm

Complete with contradictions and changed stories.

[xxx]

Why?

Plenty of suspected murder victims bodies are never found. If there was evidence of what happened and who did it then they wouldn't be open and unsolved cases. Bodies have turned up 5 or 10 years after the fact.

I don't think Natalee is going to turn up, but to assume because there is no body that there was no crime, especially given the highly suspicious statements and actions by the 3 last seen with her, is too much of a leap of logic.

No evidence she ran away, no evidence she drowned, I assume the ALE considered this idea and dismissed it, no evidence she is alive.

I don't believe innocent people conspire on false alibis, create elaborate lies and fail to come together in the "true" story after nine months.

Since obviously, Satish, Joran and Deepak are not ALL telling the truth, it does not make sense to me that if nothing bad happened and no one is guilty of anything why they would still be at odds over how the night ended.

[skepticynic]

Found it...my bad, it was Scarborough...

Frances Ellen Byrd:(when is the last time you saw her?) That night.
Interviewer: Yes, you saw her the night...
Frances Ellen Byrd: I was with her that night.
Interviewer: You were with her that night.
Frances Ellen Byrd: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: All the friends went back to the hotel. And did you all see her go back to the hotel or not?
Frances Ellen Byrd: I am just leaving it that we saw her there.
Interviewer: Saw her that night.
Frances Ellen Byrd: Right.
Mountain Brook minister: We really encourage everyone to pray. Thank you.
Frances Ellen Byrd: Pray for Natalee. She is coming home. source

PS...Are you a shrink or do you just play one on the Internet? ;)

[Basically]

when in reality, they really hate their own mothers because they cant measure up.

Posted by: jackson80 | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at 01:53 PM

Basically, I have said this along and I concur.

[skepticynic]

XXX, this is sad, but true. There are murders where the body is never found. There are bodies where the killer is never found. In most cases, there was something left behind but it was not enough to pin to any one suspect. This is what I fear happened here if a crime was committed.

We can assume about ALE, but we won't know because (wisely, as any country should do) there are things that cannot be broadcase lest they jeopardize any ongoing investigation. Jackson pointed out bungling, and I do agree with that. The ball was dropped on so many levels that it may never be solved. Chandra Levy's case was what I compare this one to; though her body was ultimately found, the mystery may never be solved.

[jackson80]

until you can do your own research on MB and name some names, then you cannot honestly claim that their stories have changed. and for that matter, how are their stories relevant to the investigation. Many of the haters during the past few days argue about issues that are not even relevant to the investigation. Those that dont have time to construct an argument, just type in caps that the boy is innocent. Only hatred could motivate these people to say these things about Nat from behind the secrecy of a blog nick and to propound hypotheticals laced with the word "if" shed no light or insight into the mystery of her disappearance, but only are used to cloud and besmirch her character. To what end, it is to vent their sick hatred of women because they get a twofer her, two for one, you can besmirch both Nat and Beth in one breath here.

[xxx]

I don't see that interview saying she was back at the HI, I see the girl basically refusing to comment on the end of the night..when the interviewer clarifies "saw her that night" she says yes.

She means saw her at C&C, not at the hotel. She could have also been in the group that later saw Natalee in the car with the 3 suspects...but she's not saying she saw Natalee at the HI...that is reading something into the statement that is not there.

[jackson80]

exxxcellent point, Triple X, it only takes a little honesty to blow holes in the statements of those who hate and try to do it in a subtle manner.

[jackson80]

dont get me wrong, i do not blame the haters here for anything that happened to Nat. this case from its inception, had all the hallmarks of an official police coverup, without having to look at or know the evidence. all you had to do was look at the police actions, not their words to be suspect of their efforts. anybody got any late news on Dompig and the sand search and the sea search?

[ChinbeardXIV]

Wow, jackson80, what has happened? You seem so bitter in your posts as I've read them today. My use of the word, "hate", is from previous posts by other people. In fact, my claim is that it was taken out of context.

I'm sort of surprised to hear you standing so strongly in the "van der Sloot defenders really hate women...and...their own mothers" line. While it does reek of Freud, it lacks substance. I defend JvdS' innocence in this case as it stands...because there's nothing that's been said (by officials to the public) to change my opinion. Does that mean I hate my mother? Nope...

Trust me, jackson80, I understand how certain posters can get under our skin, but we have to lay those cesspools to rest and not jump to conclusions.

Haters? C'mon...it's common knowledge that the MB girls tried to protect their virtue in the beginning, only to waffle when they realized that the truth is important to the case. You want references, do the look-up and you'll find them.

Also, BHT is not without issues in this case. She's taken every rumor that sheds good light on her daughter and spread them like the truth. I'd probably do the same thing, but I can admit my mistakes...

That's it.

[xxx]

Who says Beth hasn't made mistakes? I cringe when she says Joran admitted to having sexual intercourse with Natalee because I'm now about 99% sure this was a translation issue.

But if she believes what he said amounts to sexual assault..which Dompig appears to agree with her...then I don't have a problem with it.

It seems that she was right about there not being any new information or answers from Mountain Brook and that it was a big waste of time for them to come, nine months later and ask more questions.

No doubt Beth is prone to histrionics, but who wouldn't be if their daughter disappeared into thin air and the only clues you had...the statements of the last people known to be with her were totally unreliable and full of lies.

I don't think I've ever seen a case handled this badly, the Ramsey case may be a close second. But come on, waiting nine months to reinterview the Mountain Brook students? This should have been done within weeks if not days of her disappearance when people's memories were still fresh. Nobody's recollections can really be trusted now, after months of TV coverage and probably conversations among each other, how can we know what is really a memory and what is something they now think they remember?

It isn't the van der sloot defenders who hate women but the people who mercilessly bash Natalee and assume they know exactly what kind of person she was [bad/slut/group sex enthusiast] who are women haters.

[skepticynic]

I don't see that interview saying she was back at the HI, I see the girl basically refusing to comment on the end of the night..when the interviewer clarifies "saw her that night" she says yes.

She means saw her at C&C, not at the hotel. She could have also been in the group that later saw Natalee in the car with the 3 suspects...but she's not saying she saw Natalee at the HI...that is reading something into the statement that is not there.

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at 02:14 PM

That is what everyone is doing--reading into what may not be there. FEB's statement on Scarborough could be interpreted in two ways...she saw her at the hotel, she did not see her at the hotel. I read it as Scarborough asking her "at the hotel" and FEB sounding just a tad evasive. No reason to sound that way but in print (and when I saw her on TV) that is what it looks like. It appears that she saw her back at the hotel. If that was not the case, why say it that way? Why not say, "I saw her at the bar, and after that lost track of her."

I think it is amusing though that anyone who does not immediately put on the "Beth blinders" and march to one and only one story is a "hater." I prefer to think of it as "devil's advocate" and seek out all sides of the story before making a final judgment call. I want to bat ideas and see what else anyone can come up with, besides three teen doofuses commiting "the perfect murder." I guess this is the wrong venue for that which is too bad....you can keep this place.

[ChinbeardXIV]

It isn't the van der sloot defenders who hate women but the people who mercilessly bash Natalee and assume they know exactly what kind of person she was [bad/slut/group sex enthusiast] who are women haters.

Posted by: xxx | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at 02:32 PM

Now, that I can agree with. I'm not all about trashing someone who is--for all intents and purposes--deceased. I felt that was what jackson80 was saying though...and...I was very surprised.

[xxx]

This case is over. I don't think Joran would be doing his own media tour unless he/his father/lawyers were convinced he was going to be 'cleared' by the judge.

We're going to be left with the 3 suspects all still having inconsistent versions of how the night ended and ALE throwing up their hands saying 'we've done all we can'

I was somewhat horrified to see that the ALE was immediately able to scour the island for Greta, even putting out a bulletin on her rental car within HOURS of the allegations by the Kalpoe family...yet it took them SEVERAL DAYS to mobilize in the hunt for a vanished 18 year old girl.

It goes to show exactly what their priorities are and they are not and have never been about finding out what happened to Natalee Holloway.

Every time I am close to giving ALE the benefit of the doubt they prove to me they don't deserve it and that I am right in hoping Americans stop going to Aruba.

[ChinbeardXIV]

I personally think we have to face the facts (or lack thereof) that if the case ever does end, it might not be our usual suspects as the culprits--if NH is even dead (which I'm 99.5% sure she is)...

[xxx]

I find it virtually impossible to believe NONE of the 3 had any part in Natalee's disappearance or have any knowledge they have not shared.

It is possible Joran left her somewhere and the Kalpoes went back and harmed her; or that Joran harmed her and tricked K2 into helping him.

I do find it highly suspicious that it was Deepak and not Joran who added the security guard to their tale though.

And, in the unlikely even that the 3 did not harm her, or maybe just assualted her and left her somewhere then their continued lying..since somebody is still lying since there is no agreement on how Joran got home made it impossible for the "real" culprits to be found.

If the trio had admitted they took Natalee to the beach, if they did, the police and dogs could have searched the area within hours and days not a couple weeks after the fact on an island where the wind never stops blowing.

At best, they are despicable cowards and liars, at worst, rapists and killers. Either way, nothing to write home about.

[ChinbeardXIV]

I can live with that explanation, xxx.

[jackson80]

its all in how the identify themselves, defenders yes, but to defend in a negative launched at BHT and her daughter with little or no substantation shows that there is a band of haters, specifically woman haters, who have unresolved issues in their own family and they are able to vent their anger in a misdirected way against BHT and her daughter. I take each comment to stand by itself, those that lack logic or information, or are just bald assertions add nothing to the discussion. These kinds of hate note has run amok for the last few days and the people need to be called on them. If they post em, i am going to read them, and, if, they don't make any sense and are beyond the realm of defense, but just to join in on the gratuitous hate as expressed by Joran in his interview (please dont try to interpret what he said for me) is no longer a meritorious attempt at defense but an uncalled for exercise in mean spiritedness. I will continue reading and continue identifying those kneejerk hate notes as they appear.

[jackson80]

like the guy here this morning who was subtily sticking the needle into every MB student on the trip because they apparently made misstatements was in reality attacking BHT and NHT and joining in the chorus of hate.

[jackson80]

you are not going to be able to take every piece of evidence, every statement, every rumor and give them equal weight in your argument. the statements of the MB students has very shallow relevance to the missing girl, while the statements of the three, Joran, Dee, and Sat have much more relevance and weight in any discussion at this point in time.

[ChinbeardXIV]

No, jackson80, I won't even begin to interpret anything for you as it is pretty obvious that you've made up your mind long ago. So, you feel that BHT and NH have been attacked with "little or no substantation"...is that correct? Wow...I could say the same thing for JvdS and BOTH Kalpoes. They, however, have been jailed with little or no substantation.

You seem to be on a crusade...a mission...

[xxx]

I just don't get where the sympathy for these guys comes from...there is no evidence they have been WRONGLY accused, just a lack of evidence to make any charge stick.

I think the evidence from MB students, others at the bar, batenders and their own first round of statements is overwhelmingly going to point to Natalee being very intoxicated.

So, in the best case, Joran leaves a highly intoxicated girl alone on a beach in a foreign country, who by his own admission had been "acting crazy" at 3am. He is 5 minutes from the Marriott but doesn't move her over there or go get a guard from the Marriott to help her. He leaves.

He has said nothing nice about Natalee in any of his interviews or his statements, he even admits to claiming he didn't know her name or recognize her picture the next day, but also claims he was not that drunk either.

He lied repeatedly and in detail, he didn't tell the truth even when 2 men were arrested based on what K2 said about taking Natalee to the HI, even now, NINE MONTHS later he can't stop himself from saying he thought she must have gotten up off the beach at 3am and hooked up with another guy...

Even if he did not harm her, he brought suspicion on himself by his actions and his lies. He is a suspect because he made himself a suspect and if he is innocent, which I don't believe, it is his fault and no one else's that any evidence leading to what happened to Natalee was long gone by the time he told Truth.3

[Lisa]

Hi all! Cant wait to see the interview tonight. By the way, I dont think Greta was hollering Murderer. IMO

[Ripley]

xxx,( Grandma23--Scared Monkeys)

Are you one of the same?