Natalee Holloway: The Politics

The audio segment pertaining only to the Holloway case from my recent call in to Subject2Discussion is being hosted by Hyscience here.

I have also gotten word that politics in the Netherlands could be leading toward a reconsideration of their troop deployments in Afghanistan. This from email:

... I was startled to hear from a very prominent Dutch MP,
Mr. Van Baalen (a staunch supporter of Dutch military involvement
in support of the US war on terror from the beginning), that he had a list of "questions" to be answered by the foreign Minister, Ben Bot, before his party
(the right wing VVD, also part of the current Dutch government)
would consider expanding/continuing the support to US led operations in Afghanistan (150 more Dutch marines to be sent for "Enduring Freedom" for covert operations on top of 4 more F16s, 100 airforce (wo)men, and 750 more marines during election time.)

The TV reporter asking him why he - of all persons - changed his mind
on his well known unconditional Dutch support policy for the US operations
in Afghanistan, he said that he had too many questions about current
"open issues", he mentioned the following:

-- will prisoners taken by Dutch marines and thereafter handed
   over to US marines, be treated according the Geneva convention?
-- does the CIA have permission from the Dutch government to use Dutch airports (e.g. Schiphol) to transfer prisoners from one place to another?
-- does the CIA have secret "prisons" in Europe?

and I could almost hear him wonder:

-- why did the US government not publicly condemn the "boycott" of Aruba from day 1?
-- why did US diplomats not publicly condemn the media
   slander against Dutch government officials (yes, including
   Karin (not Karen or Caren) Janssen and Paul van der Sloot)?
-- why does the British government warn a newspaper not
   to publish more details from a secret document suggesting that
   pres. Bush wanted to bomb al Jazeera headquarters?
   (What did the President have in mind? Replace al Jazeera by Dr. Phil & Co??)

And if those last 3 points were at that moment not in the mind of Mr. Van Baalen, they certainly are in those of many - if not all - other members of parliament in Holland.

I guess your concerns about US-Dutch relations were on target and
prophetical...

Also see here at Hyscience for more on the Aruban side of this story, including the Mansur connection. I should be clear on something - I am not suggesting that one of the chief protagonists in this story, Jossy Mansur, is in any way linked directly to the types of activities the US needs to be concerned about should certain political changes take place in Aruba due, in part, to economic damage America attempts to influence with a boycott. However, there are groups and individuals in the Caribbean that do warrant America's attention, ones who would likely exploit those changes.

For background, you'll also want to see Cable News: A Season of Fraud and Why We Think Van Der Sloot Is Guilty.

At this point, my basic contention is that the media circus fostered by our Cable News outlets could result in negative consequences for America which override any one missing persons case in importance - however unfortunate that one case.

Comments

[donnaanna]

What a nightmare this whole thing has turned out to be..... Just one disaster after another! And, still no Natalee!!!

[Brooke]

"have also gotten word that politics in the Netherlands could be leading toward a reconsideration of their troop deployments in Afghanistan."
Posted by Dan

Great so now BT and her stupid boycott has caused an entire army of another nation to stop helping us defend OUR country.
She needs to be deported to who cares where.

[KeesVanZandt]

actually my wife's brother is a dutch special forces soldier and we also support the government in not sending troops to afghanistan... Most dutch people are really offended by the way the federal governemnt has not responded and failed to uphold federal law. It is illegal for these govenors to support or call for a boycott of dutch territories. Thus it is quite simply blackmail: this is not how civilised countries respect eachothers sovereignty. THis whole thing has turned from out of control media circus to a political riot and quite frankly the federal government of the US and the media are to blame for it. All these tv shows using that poor woman BT for ratings! Its beyond belief... Dr phil tampering with tapes to make nice TV and cause our nations to collide the way they are about to. It s a D#$%^ shame!

[Northerner]

The issues that worry the Dutch politicians are not so much the NH story, that is a secondary consideration at best. Their real worry is the behavior of the current US administration and the CIA.

As mentioned, a report has surfaced (from a reasonably solid source) that president Bush seriously considered bombing the Al Jazeera headquarters. If true, this would be an incredibly stupid remark by Bush and if he meant it he should (in my opinion) be removed from office at once. Using military power to silence an independent news source in an allied country (Al Jazeera HQ is in Qatar) is one of the worst examples of the "bully politics" that Bush has become known for. And most people, Dutch politicians included, don't like bullies, .

Another consideration is the rumours about a CIA prison network in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. European countries believe that basic human rights should be observed regarding prisoners whose guilt has not been established in a court of law. Secret prisons where the same abuse might occur as in Guantanamo Bay is not something we want in our back yard. We still care about human rights here, it is what sets us apart from the animals (human and other species).

So I think it is a combination of the above reasons that make the politicians here rethink their support for the US. Make no mistake about it, we want to fight terrorism as much as the US does, we just disagree about the methods. Sinking to their level is not the way to win a war. Not if you consider yourself the moral superior, anyway.

[Rubby]

Oh my, the Dutch are mad!

Do the Dutch still consider pig-latin a language?

snicker

[nelson]

Very well said Northerner, maybe now Beth can start get her supporters to go to war for her also!!.

[nelson]

The Dutch are way more civilized country which supports human rights and social equality. If your not so ignorant maybe you should find out more of other countries, there's alot more countries out there in the world, learn about different cultures and believes and btw for which you should have respect for also instead of bashing them!!. Nobody is better then the other its time people start learning to live with each other and just thinking they are superior, that is not just a complex btw.

[cindi in pa]

Guess Cindy Sheehan will soon be supporting BHT.

[*flo*]

RE:
I am not suggesting that one of the chief protagonists in this story, Jossy Mansur, is in any way linked directly to the types of activities the US needs to be concerned about should certain political changes take place in Aruba due, in part, to economic damage America attempts to influence with a boycott. However, there are groups and individuals in the Caribbean that do warrant America's attention, ones who would likely exploit those changes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, there should not be any suggestion the Mansur's are linked, but its hard not to avoid because of the many ongoings with he & his family and other associates...MO, this Aruba boycott, it could be a smoke screen base on "Mansur" clan and the Hezbollah connection and these groups and individuals in the Caribbean (Chevaz) that do warrant America's attention. After a few hours of research regarding, (regardless if Mansur has not been in Lebanon in centuries)

Natalee Holloway: The Untold Story
BlLLIONAIRE Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, FoxNew shareholder/owner
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/11/operation_smoke.html

My question, why would Dutch support US war on terror when there could possibly be an covert operations going on within Dutch territory? Yes, involving the Holloway disappearence. There have been some major political points brought up, I'm guessing the MSM networks will get around to disclosing such information, but when?...BTW...I enjoyed your broadcast on Subject2Discussion

[Northerner]

My question, why would Dutch support US war on terror

Posted by: *flo* | Nov 24, 2005 4:03:43 PM

Possibly because it is not the US war on terror. We are all in this together, the US and all other Western countries. Like I said, we may disagree on the methods, but not on the objective, war against terrorism.

[Jack]

This has really nothing to do with the Natalee Holloway case. The Netherlands doesn't care about Aruba and its problems!

This has to do with comments of VP Cheney (he thinks torture can be justified sometimes; The White House doesn't support John McCain's torture ban). The Dutch government is - like many European countries - against torture. The Hague is the justice capital of the world (yes, Beth, The Hague is the justice capital of the world) and the Dutch don't want the Americans to violate international law.

That's all.

The Dutch MPs Koenders and Leerdam (both Labour) have asked questions about the investigation and about the boycott. The Dutch foreign minister answered their questions today:
Aruba is responsible for the investigation. It's still an ongoing investigation. The Dutch government has supported Aruba (F16s) and will support Aruba if they want the Dutch to support them.
On November 22, the Dutch minister Ben Bot had a phone conversation with Deputy Secretary of State Robert B. Zoellick and in that conversation the Dutch government asked the American government to come with a statement which in the federal government says that the USA does not support the boycott.

http://www.minbuza.nl/default.asp?CMS_ITEM=8518495705FC4C5CAE7311C2DB0EDC30X3X45433X55

Last week minister Ben Bot also answered the questions of MP Boris Dittrich (D66):
http://www.minbuza.nl/default.asp?CMS_NOCOOKIES=YES&CMS_ITEM=CFF33AC4851C4AB1B46F06FA63511A7EX3X43999X66

I think the Dutch government doesn't care. Only if the Aruban government wants the Dutch to support them (investigation, boycott), then they will do something.
But the good relationship between the USA and NL won't be hurted by the Natalee Holloway case. At the end of the day...it's 'just' a missing case.

[*flo*]

we may disagree on the methods, but not on the objective, war against terrorism.

Posted by: Northerner | Nov 24, 2005 4:16:11 PM

The Dutch has problems in their own backyard;) Why support US military in the middle-east, when the Dutch have and possibly still are conducting terrorist activity...as the Bush Administration has....a real clear objective here;)

[Northerner]

Posted by: *flo* | Nov 24, 2005 4:33:15 PM

Flo, a bit too much turkey and wine already? What the h*ll are you talking about? The Dutch conducting terrorist activity?

Maybe I'm feeding a troll here, but you just don't make any sense. Try explaining it to me in complete sentences, in English.

[*flo*]

At the end of the day...it's 'just' a missing case.

Posted by: Jack | Nov 24, 2005 4:33:04 PM

Jack, you made many good points, however I cannot see the Holloway disappearance, 'just' a missing case, on a tiny island...I would like to think it not so complexed, sadly, MO, there is more than 'just' a missing case and hope resolves beyond nothing.

[*flo*]

Posted by: Northerner | Nov 24, 2005 4:37:50 PM

Northerner before you start name calling which I won't feed into ....do your homework...research some info, Dan himself has placed much info on his blog...start with coverups...Your here are not the only person which reads...

[Northerner]

Even if you still believe in a coverup in Aruba (and that is your right), the connection with terrorism is a bit hazy to me, let alone the alleged Dutch involvement in the supposed terrorism. That is what I asked you to specify:

1) What terrorist act are you talking about?
2) What is the Dutch (government or otherwise) involvment in it?

If you seriously believe that the NH disappearance has anything to do with terrorism, let alone Al Qaeda or related groups, again that is your right, but please forgive me for holding my belly while I laugh. Like Al Qaeda has nothing better to do.

[Martha]

Oh, the Mongolian warriors horsemen are ready to backfill and replace the Dutch troops in Afghanistan. The Dutch soldiers had been seen as soft-boned and cowards. They didn't like to fight on frontlines, and would rather stay behind to do the chores. The Mongolian fighters have 20/20 vision and can shoot backwards while riding their war horses. They know desert mountain warfare. Their war horses can climb the steepest sand dunes. And the Mongolians can fight without food and water for two weeks. The al Qaeda Talibans are no match for them.

[*flo*]

Posted by: Northerner | Nov 24, 2005 5:09:44 PM

Northerner, in general, Al Qaeda is just one terrorist cell, we're talking what helps run terrorist activity...coverup from smuggling,(weapons, communication equip, drugs, human trafficking)leading to aquiring funds, money laundering, leading to disposing of people to silence them. This general activity of support leads to terrorism...causes distruction among a community/gov't and human life. You laughing now;)

[nelson]

And whats your point here Aruba DOES NOT support any of those activities.

[Enough_of_the_B.S.]

I wouldn't put it past the Twittys to fabricate a farce like Harry Tho' suggests on Hyscience, and then rip off the Amercian public, the way that they're doing. Beth has a new boyfriend, the gangster thug Joe Mammano, also thought to be a money launderer, and with her soon to be ex-husband's brother, and Jossy Mansur, she is now rich beyond her dreams. There's a reason that horrible woman never mentions her daughter unless it's to state she's a virgin. WAKE UP AMERICA! These people ARE THIEVES AND LIARS, using the media to get rich, and plot against Aruba and Holland, for their own filthy agendas.

[KeesVanZandt]

Mongolians can fight without food and water for two weeks. The al Qaeda Talibans are no match for them.

Posted by: Martha | Nov 24, 2005 5:21:14 PM

Well troll friend: lets be glad that the mongolians r there to win the war on terror for the west....
Oops I'm feeding it ....im sorry

[April]

During the Thanksgiving Dinner, Uncle said his travel agents didn't get much Aruba bookings for next year graduation tours. Everybody is scared about being kidnaped by the terrorists. Many of his customers thought the three Aruba murder suspects are more likely acted like terrorists because they have backing of the Aruban governments. As a matter of fact, he saw some stickers on the tourists mailers reminding people that you go there at your own risk, the US government can do very little to rescue you.

[mongaloid]

Oh, the Mongolian warriors horsemen are ready to backfill and replace the Dutch troops in Afghanistan. The Dutch soldiers had been seen as soft-boned and cowards. They didn't like to fight on frontlines, and would rather stay behind to do the chores. The Mongolian fighters have 20/20 vision and can shoot backwards while riding their war horses. They know desert mountain warfare. Their war horses can climb the steepest sand dunes. And the Mongolians can fight without food and water for two weeks. The al Qaeda Talibans are no match for them.

Posted by: Martha | Nov 24, 2005 5:21:14 PM

Oh, good.

Let's hope they bring their long range bows and arrows

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[sbg1961]

Please see below the Dutch do not even care about their own teenagers why would they care about an American teenager.

IN THE NETHERLANDS - 25 NOVEMBER

Home Page

Dutch News

Life in Holland
11 teens sentenced for group rapes

5 September 2005

AMSTERDAM — A court in Rotterdam has imposed sentences of up to 12 months in youth detention on 11 teenagers who took part in gang rapes of girls. The last three months was suspended.

In total 12 teenage boys, aged 14 to 17, appeared before the court. The case against one of the group was adjourned.

The defendants were part of a group made up primarily of young boys of who raped three girls aged 13 to 14. Only some of the defendants were involved in each rape.

Ten of the eleven defendants were released on Monday because the sentences they received matched the period already spent in pre-trial custody.

The court ordered the 11 teens to take part in a course

about sexuality and sexual behaviour. They were also forbidden from having any contact with the victims.

The prosecution had asked that the defendants receive sentences of up to 15 months in youth detention.

[Copyright Expatica News + ANP 2005]

[Lara]

Please see below the Dutch do not even care about their own teenagers why would they care about an American teenager.

11 teens sentenced for group rapes

5 September 2005

Posted by: sbg1961 | Nov 24, 2005 7:27:30 PM

These were West Indians from the West Indies, not Dutch Nationals, black immigrants in their own community spured by gangsta rap and porn

[Arubaanse]

These were West Indians from the West Indies, not Dutch Nationals, black immigrants in their own community spured by gangsta rap and porn

Posted by: Lara | Nov 24, 2005 7:51:22 PM

It doesn't matter if they have Dutch nationality or not. The girl shoul get justice. That is what I think

[MoonShadow]

At this point, my basic contention is that the media circus fostered by our Cable News outlets could result in negative consequences for America which override any one missing persons case in importance - however unfortunate that one case.

Posted by Dan in Natalee Holloway | Permalink

Been saying that for months.

[Arubaanse]

Posted by: Tipala | Nov 24, 2005 8:26:50 PM

Get your facts straight. You know what...go look this up in an aruban dictionary...BAY DEN TONTO DI BO MAMA!!!!

[david r]

JORAN HABLA QUE TODO EL MUNDO BIN PUNKT.

[nelson]

Tipala you are going WAYYYYYYYYYYY overboard with your crap, really you must be from a trailer park or never been to school before in your life!!. So much ignorance in one person I can't even start imagine. When you have so much hatred inside of you and you can't find anything else to blame it on thats when people become dilusional. Your way past that point allready seems like it. GET SOME HELP quick. But I guess you can't even afford your trailer rent imagine a good schrink.

[26ANDCOUNTING]

Sounds about right.. Eventually when you play with fire you get burned.. How long did the Media think they could trample all over the island and condemn their justice system before they bit back.. Sounds like a very smart bunch..

[roy]

Tipala, April and Martha according to me are one and the same idiot. And if that is not the case then I would say there are at least 3 really dumb people on this blog.
Arubaanse, don't waste your good energy on that moron.

[cindi in pa]

Posted by: roy | Nov 24, 2005 9:54:22 PM

April does make a good point on graduation trips, but not just to Aruba. High schools around the country are sending letters home to parents of seniors. My son can go anywhere he wants after he graduates, as long he stays in the USA. I contacted our own high school on the subject of travel out of the country, let's face it, most parents don't give a thought about their childrens rights being in jeopardy. I offered to pay postage for the letters, so parents are aware. That is not a boycott, it's simply being aware.

[pearl]

it's time that you people are aware of your child.

FINALLY.

[a,,incanada]

I'm with the idea, if Pres Bush can't stand up to Beth and the boycotters, that Holland pull out their troops and put the pressure on, just as Beth and Dave are doing against Aruba. Eye for eye! Southern mentality returned!
Those large companies (Dutch),also should no longer give upwards of 20,000. towards the election campaign towards the likes of Riley! Two can play the game. Possibly also the large companies should withdraw their companies to another state, or country who truly appreciates them.

[greenwing]

Didn't the State Department issue a statement that individual states cannot boycott a country?

I think it is interesting that the other 49 governors did not join in - and it also says that Alabama is not getting much support outside of their own borders.

I'm sure Aruba and every other vacation spot, both in the US and outside, would be able to adjust quite well to the graduation trips being curtailed.

[roy]

Posted by: cindi in pa | Nov 24, 2005 10:54:13 PM

I have no quarrel with that.
If however she is one and the same as tipala and martha my opinion of her remains the same.

[nelson]

The thing is Aruba never wanted or catered to the Spring Break type of tourist.

[MF]

JORAN HABLA QUE TODO EL MUNDO BIN PUNKT.

Posted by: david r | Nov 24, 2005 8:53:49 PM

Si tu lo dices, deberia de ser verdad o no?

Tienes la prueba o link pa reafirmar tus palabras o son mas bien propaganda? JMHO.

Gracias.

[MF]

The Arubans are the grand grand children of black slaves and Dutch death row prisoners. The Dutch Kingdom shipped these outcasts to cultivate the island and intermarry with the local Cannibal tribes. The Cannibal tribes ate all the black and Dutch females. That's the reason why there is this murderer gene in their blood. The world starts to wonder how many people had been murdered on the island and not reported because they can dispose the corpse so well, and nobody, no crime.

Posted by: Tipala | Nov 24, 2005 8:26:50 PM

Cacanan manera bo, nos ta gewoon laga pa Dios. Manera semper. Amen.

[Mat]

We've decided to vacation here at home this summer. The US Gulf States were hit hard from the hurricanes. We feel our $$ will be better spent, giving to our own, who are still recovering from the storm's aftermath. In addition, we enjoy our pristine coastlines.

[cindi in pa]

it's time that you people are aware of your child.

FINALLY.

Posted by: pearl | Nov 24, 2005 10:56:57 PM

Excuse me? I believe most responsable American parents are very aware of their children and what is going on in their life. What they are not aware of in some cases is their childrens rights not being protected in another country.

[cindi in pa]

In addition, we enjoy our pristine coastlines.

Posted by: Mat | Nov 25, 2005 12:18:16 AM

Mat, I agree, keep the money here where it's needed. I have traveled Europe on two occassions. Bavaria being my favorite. But you can't beat our coastlines,mountains,state parks, history, adventure. And our rights are protected. Of course, I always look for the union label lol.

[drolletje3]

You know what the fun part is? Copying and paste all the US bashing about The Netherlands and their troops in Afganistan and send them to my government and Dutch newspapers asking them why we should back up America in their WOT. It should be an eyeopener. There are indeed more and more Dutch citizens who don't like the American way in this matter. Of course The Netherlands, Belgium and France have a lot of damaging Arabs in their country. We do not side with them, but it must be clear once and for all that we do not want to side with the US handling in this matter the way they doing it right now. It has INDEED nothing to do with Natalee Holloway. However, statements by posters on several blogs covering the case of Natalee and the bashing of the Dutch, their legal system, an foolish boycott of a Dutch territory and now the bashing of our troops in Afganistan will surely help to convince my government (and through the local press the Dutch citizens) to get our troops out of cave country. We are not appreciated in so many ways, so why would we fight side by side with the US? No let me rephrase that, why would any European country fight side by side with the US? You know what the fun part is? Copying and paste all the US bashing about The Netherlands and their troops in Afganistan and send them to my government and Dutch newspapers asking them why we should back up America in their WOT. It should be an eyeopener. There are indeed more and more Dutch citizens who don't like the American way in this matter. Of course The Netherlands, Belgium and France have a lot of damaging Arabs in their country. We do not side with them, but it must be clear once and for all that we do not want to side with the US handling in this matter the way they do right now. It has INDEED nothing to do with Natalee Holloway. However, statements by posters on several blogs covering the case of Natalee and the bashing of the Dutch, their legal system, an foolish boycott of a Dutch territory and now the bashing of our troops in Afganistan will surely help to convince my government (and through the local press the Dutch citizens) to get our troops out of cave country. We are not appreciated in so many ways, so why would we fight side by side with the US? No let me rephrase that, why would any European country fight side by side with the US?

[VerucaSalt]

The thing is Aruba never wanted or catered to the Spring Break type of tourist.

Posted by: nelson | Nov 24, 2005 11:56:25 PM

To what "type" of tourist do such fine establishments as Carlos & Charlies cater?

Middle aged retirees????? HA HA HA

I'm sure the many casinos located on the isle cater to only the "most discriminating" of gamblers.

[Key West]

Cable News outlets R flipping .You heard it here First!

[Alyssa]

This Thanksgiving we flew to the Canadian Alberta Cabins for the holiday getaway and team motivational camp, instead of flying down to Aruba beach like we used to be; just for the sake of Natalee. Our company's Learjet is decorated with a small Natalee Christmas Tree. How thoughtful! Many and many companies have skipped Aruba on their spending proposals to avoid the unwanted issues. It is so sad to see Aruba in ruins, and whose fault is that?

[woebegone]

Our company's Learjet is decorated with a small Natalee Christmas Tree. How thoughtful!
------------------------------------

*shaking my head*

So now Natalee ranks right up there with jesus Christ himself, can't say that surprises me. Can't even celebrate Jesus' birthday without making sure Natalee gets first billing. disgusting, IMO

[donnaanna]

Cable News outlets R flipping .You heard it here First!

Posted by: Key West | Nov 25, 2005 6:48:56 AM

What do you mean by their flipping?

[Alyssa]

It's a good sales forcast plan our team travel sales leadership has concluded for spending on sales ads in 2006. The more you advertise the Natalee Angel Passion and the Aruba Boycott, the more you can sell the profitable Hawaii and Thailand Paradise Travel Packages. People are emotional and have lot of sentiments and aspirations. We found that Aruba now bothers a lot of vacationers. And the cut-throat low rates of the Aruba trips are killing our commissions earnings.