Natalee Holloway: A Thought Piece

Well, it's alleged to be, as it is from the American Thinker. An otherwise fine blog. But in reality they are only now taking the time to pontificate on the one subtext to this story which is the most obvious - and was five months ago. The story has moved well beyond this now for any thinking person following it. Unfortunately, when it comes to the media, too few are.

How is it, I ask you, that millions of American parents became convinced that it was normal and healthy to treat their kids like pagan princes and princesses, indulging their licentious desires and hedonistic impulses?  And make no mistake about it, this isn’t Beaver Cleaver and these students don’t journey to paradise to play pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey or bobbing-for-apples . . . it’s more like the forbidden apple.

Let’s be blunt, one way a daughter could frame this is, “Hey, Mom and Dad, can I go to Cancun for spring break (or to celebrate, or some other occasion)?”  But translated that often means, “Hey, Mom and Dad, can I go to Cancun, where I’ll most likely have sex with some libidinous boy you don’t know from Adam – maybe even with lots of boys – drink, smoke, and perhaps even do drugs?”  That sounds crazy but is, in essence, accurate.  Crazier still is that the parents’ answer is often “yes.”

Comments

[westcoaster]

May all the parents of new born children take note of what is happening in todays culture for children and teens.

Get a firm grip on the reins of your relationship with your kids and teach them that appropriate behavior for themselves is not only society's responsibility (grandparents, school officials, therapists, police,juvenile authorities), but it is primarily their own responsibility.

Don't forget to say, "I love you" to children of all ages!

[MrsLevy]

Young people have been screwing each other since the dawn of time. Wealthy kids do it in Florida or Cancun or Aruba. Is anyone really surprised?

I wish the bible thumpers would take care of their own families before they try to lecture mine.

MrsLevy

[gigi]

Parents today are indulging their kids to no end these days. Parents buy the clothes, give the kids $$ for trips and gadgets. Its a free for all. I feel very sorry for this generation as they do not know the value of a dollar as well as the value of modesty and respect for themselves and for others. Im especially concerened for young girls today. It is NOT empowering (hate that word) to dress or act provacatively, its just a shame that they feel the need to do so. We are going to have a generation of spoiled, older than their years, worn out kids.

[George T.]

My neighbor was recently asked by his wife to pick up his 14 yr old daughter after school, 20 miles from their home. She was to be waiting on the front steps of the school in a very busy city. The neighbor returned home from work at 8:00p.m. alone. His reply to the question of where was the daughter, was that he just didn't have time to pick her up.
Now we do not have to go to a different country to have parents not making the best decisions for the safely of their children.

[chrys]

Parents (being too busy all the time and have lost track of what's REALLY important) do not take enough time to talk to the parents of their children's friends! Hopefully, in the future, parents will get together and put their feet down on the plans to travel to a place they have never been before so that they can legally do "things" they have never tried. This whole scenario is beyond rational to me. We thought Florida for spring break was wild!

[Mike]

I'm 23 with a 15 month old child. Now more than ever do I pay attention to the news and the sick sh*t that's going on. I think you have finally asked the right question regarding this case and any other that is connected in some way. PARENTS! Point blank...stop being so fuc*ing LAZY. It takes work to keep track of your kid...even more to keep track and be involved in their life. Like America...parents come up with sooo many excuses for why THEIR child is so messed up or not succeding. Bottom line...children are a product of their parents. If parents dont take responsiblity...who will. Not the children...No offense to anybody, but Mrs. Twitty did not know her child like she thought she did, maybe she should look back on their past because I think there is a lot we dont know about.

[kim]

guess they didn't take a senior trip. or have spring break in florida. how soon some forget. anyway, i'm sure all those days are over now.

[festicles]

I guess now I know why the 3 oldest of my 5 kids have constantly told me how out of touch I am with what the other parents let their kids do.....we were always doubtful when they told us their friends' parents were allowing them to do things that seemed ridiculously permissive; then we would actually talk to these parents and find out it was true! So our kids, and all their friends always considered us to be the "strict and unreasonable" parents, and our kids received much pity and sympathy from their friends (and even some of the parents) because we were just so unhip.

Then one morning we picked up the paper and found that 4 of those kids had taken a "booze cruise" (a party boat that cruises around the harbor for several hours while everyone binge drinks). Some of the cool parents had permitted this, but nobody stopped to think about who was going to drive home. A number of kids and some innocent bystanders in another vehicle didn't make it home that night. One went to prison for reckless manslaughter - I had coached him several years earlier in YMCA basketball. Another was disabled and disfigured for life.

It was a horrible shame that it took such a tragedy to make common sense parenting become fashionable, but suddenly we weren't the only unreasonable parents anymore.

Parents need to remember that after unconditional love, their first duty is to be a guardian and authority figure, not a buddy. They must call the shots and loosen the reigns slowly, so their children can gradually demonstrate the maturity to make good choices on their own. Then they have to let go and trust the child and the lessons they've learned. But nobody wants to do that anymore because they think it is the school's job, or Ridalin's job, or Dr. Phil's job to "fix" their kids. The kids ain't broken folks - we have a generation of parents that are too afraid, self-centered, ,and lazy to parent.

Sorry for the rant. Guess ya can tell I think it was a great article.

[jessie]

i never went on a senior trip and my daughter wont be either... in addition to that, smoking a little dope back in the day and touching some guys weiner is a little different than some girl giving blow jobs all night long in a closet at a party and doing heroin or coke and parents having NO IDEA where their kids are or what they are doing which is what we see alot of these days ... my parents put the fear of God into me and yes i rebelled at times (smoked some dope at a party or made out with some guy) but i was never out of control.. at home i had my mom and dad to deal with if i was caught, and they were strict .. they knew where i was with who at all times .... period. parents need to get control of their kids ... natalee shouldnt have been in aruba .. she was a child as far as im concerned .... and im not a bible thumper .. im living in the year 2005 .. things arent pretty here... take a look at the news ...

[Mike]

Festicles,

So true! You need to be that authoritative person the first 18 years...ride them hard but fair. Then when their all grown up, it's time to be their best friend and to be a good reminder. I think parents today have it backwards...bottom line is that it all starts at home.

[jessie]

oh and im going to go at it again .. im the bad mom in the neighborhood because i wont let my 8 year old ride her bike around the neighborhood without an adult, nor will i let her ride up to the sporting goods store with another neighborhood kid to look at fishing poles or whatever they want to buy that day ... nope.. first of all she pays no attention to cars and she would walk over to look at a little puppy in a heartbeat ... therefore IM the bad mom, im the one all the parents are staring at at the cookouts .. im the one who is "overprotective"

'we live in a good neighborhood things dont happen here' is what im told blah blah ....

ill continue to be a parent who accepts responsibility for my child, a parent who wants to be a a "parent" and not a babysitter..

[jessie]

and things are only getting worse ...

[Isanah]

Mrs. Twitty did not know her child like she thought she did, maybe she should look back on their past because I think there is a lot we dont know about.

Posted by: Mike | Nov 15, 2005 3:22:45 PM

I don't know if Beth knew Natalee as well as she thought she did or not! But I do know I raised my children with the notion that they were going to have little opportunity to have any illicit 'fun' in our home. Internet access was limited, I never left my home unattended when going on a weekend trip or while at work, alcohol was unavailable at home or at least guarded, and they all went to daycare for as long as they were accepted. In short, I was almost always one step ahead of them in knowing what may happen if left to their own resources! I knew because as a teen I was left on my own and I know what 'opportunities' arose!

Parenting is difficult especially when those 'opportunities' are often available in other parent's homes that are unsupervised. You do your best at what you can control, especially in your own home! When my son discussed a similar graduation trip with me, I didn't have to say no, I just laughed and said something like, 'yeah right'! That was all it took, he knew better then to think I would ever had agreed to help fund or support such a trip! He was 18 and I suppose he could have gone if he truly wanted to and earned his own money. But he never tried to go and I think it was because he knew I was wise and that it was not in his best interest to go on such a trip and take the risks associated with it.

You see while he was a teen he did get caught drinking and as parents we dealt with his 'mistakes' in a fair and reasonable manner. We were there when the officer called that he was drinking at a house party and he was intercepted prior to returning to his illegally parked car. The officer was so professional and started the 'lesson' by noting to my son, 'how fortunate he was to have two parents to come and deal with this situation' and we did. We discussed with our son, all the what ifs, what if the officer waited for him to get in the car and then he received a DUI, what an idiot you were while drunk and you actually approached your car in that condition while there was a cop standing around it (he was afraid it would be towed, lol) and ect, ect, so many opportunities for lessons to be taught, lack of judgement high on the list, not so much that he drank but look how much of a fool it made you and the risks you had taken.

No one is a perfect parent but being realistic, using common sense, and plain simple language is the best basis to start with! Good rules of thumb, never say never, never say not my kid, and always support authority within reason if your child is being disciplined.

My other son was disciplined by a middle school principal for holding his girlfriend around the waist from behind while in the lunch room! Personally, I found this very funny, but my husband and I sat there and took this authority person very seriously while we, son included, were in their office. Then the lesson on the way home was, don't ever have us have to come back up to that school for that again! Yes, the rule was a little too much, but it was obviously a rule and by God don't ever inconvenience me again with that BS by breaking that rule! Attempting to be good parent is as much about being selfish as it is about being selfless!

Anyone who has grounded a teenager knows that all in the home suffer! LOL

[jessie]

and take a look at kara bordens parents .. they attempted to do the right thing with their 14 yr old daughter, and they were killed by the boyfriend ... this world is just crazy

[Isanah]

and take a look at kara bordens parents .. they attempted to do the right thing with their 14 yr old daughter, and they were killed by the boyfriend ... this world is just crazy

Posted by: jessie | Nov 15, 2005 4:13:45 PM

Isn't that the truth!

What about the 41 year woman that just got 30 years in prison for holding drinking and sex parties with teens! Beyond crazy.....unbelievable!

[splash]

Anyone who has grounded a teenager knows that all in the home suffer! LOL

Posted by: Isanah | Nov 15, 2005 4:10:54 PM
LOL. I can remember conversations with my husband that went something like this "Gosh, I wish he (the son) hadn't done that. Now we have to ground him" I dreaded grounding more than my son because like you said, all in the home suffer. But we always did. took away the car too. nothing like having a car just sitting there to really make a teenager miserable. Or having to ride the school bus--now that is incredibly embarrasing. LOL/

[Hobo]

On that clip HUMAN TRAFFICKING, the same thing happened a few years ago at Arden Fair Mall in Sacramento where a 16 year old girl was walking on the sidewak in broad day light and a van pulled along side and snatched her; witnesses all over the place, too. They dumped her on the road in the mountains a long time later. Not alive and not in the shape before the abduction.

[homewoodmom]

BRAVO!!!!!

[Justice for Natalee]

Parents don't have to be popular.

[Brooke]

Parents are to permissive, they care more about what the other parents will think, especially in wealthier suburbs, they have to keep up with the Jones's, the Twitty's, give their kids expensive vehicles to drive, their kids have to participate in all the "right" after school activities, go on the "right" senior trips, all for show. The kid is spoiled rotten and allowed to run wild. Than they have to attend the "right" college. And part of this game is to beleive their children would never do drugs and the girls are all virgins, or at least that's what they would like to believe, after all wasn't the child an honor roll student.

[Shell]

If anything positive is to come from this Natalee Holloway coverage, it's the realization that some of these trips that H.S. grads organize are fraught with dangers. These kids may have been drinking for the first time, and we all learn the hard way about our limits, and judgments on alchohol. There are so many dangers,in the USA,as well.

Parents who protect and child proof their homes, picking their kids up from school, getting them cell phones to keep in contact, suddenly lose their good judgment when it comes to plunking down some serious dough to send their sexy teens to star in a "Girl's Gone WIld" video.

Hopefully, less parents will be that short-sighted, and if they are, that they will be willing to take some of the blame, and also distribute part of the responsibility on the adults who failed to safeguard their child, and the supposedly good friends, who watched her get into a car with strangers, and didn't give a rat's patootie about her not returning home.

There's plenty of blame to go around in the very guarded and Stepford-like community of Mountain Brook. Whether Natalee was the victim of foul play at the hands of these three suspects, or something else happened, I'm tired of the missiles being aimed at a tourist spot, when bad things can happen anywhere in the world, especially to drunk young girls, and their dipsy doodle false friends who waved as she disappeared forever, in the company of total strangers. BOYCOTT MOUNTAIN BROOK!

[moey]

Dan: I agree that more discretion should have been used by the parents in checking this trip out. The first red flag should have been the ratio of adults to teenagers -- that would have made me say no, immediately. My granddaughter wouldn't have liked it, but she would have understood.

The second thing that bothers me is that these are all friends of hers, schoolmates and the adults must have been parents of some of the kids on the trip and what totally blows my mind is that they all got on the plane and left with no real concern for Natalee. I would be outraged as a parent if the same thing happened to my kid and the other kids got on the plane and left along with the adults. I really can't believe that at least a group of people didn't stay behind to find out what happend to Natalee. Very irresponsible, especially for the adults - in my view anyway.

I also can't believe that formal statements were not taken from everyone students, families, kids hotel workers, as soon as they verified that she was missing, within a day or so.

Too bad, but I sure hope she is alive somewhere and will be found.

[Bella]

No parent really knows just what their offspring will ultimately do or say in certain situations. All one can do is hope that the teachings about safety issues and right and wrong have taken hold and that their child will act upon it. No one can take credit for what their teen did not do (I am sure there were MB kids who went nowhere near the casinos and C&C type places) or what they did (i.e. someone sweet and innocent as Natalee). Life is so full of random stuff - of all the girls at C&C, only Natalee went missing. She thought she knew Joran and she trusted him. A mere passing thought that she acted on. Any one of the many at C&C perhaps would have done the same if they had met the individual previously. No one can blame parents for what their children do except in rare instances of rotten parenting and wild child behavior. If one has kids like that, don't let them go on such a trip. The blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the 3 boys no matter what they did because if you believe Joran, they left an innocent young girl who was obviously impaired alone on a beach. By doing so, he incurred a responsibility for her eventual disappearance, and for that alone, he will most likely carry a lot of guilt for the rest of his life.

[Botched]

Some of you are totally out of your gourds.

Do you not know that most of this is not about wanting to have sex for the pleasure of it but pressure on young girls to be liked and have a boyfriend.
Having a boyfriend does nto mean you have to have sex. The boy most always wants it but a girl does not necessarily want to go along with the act. She feels pressured to do so just so she too, can have a boyfriend like she sees other gilrs all around her. Now, some girls they simply do not care and will take on the whole football team for the hell of it.
What is missing in a lot of these young peoples lives these days in going to church and having God in their lives. If you have issue with that then I am sorry for you.
Just give your kids rubbers or put them on birth control and tell them to knock themselfs out.
If you have a problem doing this then be prepared to raise your sons or daughters baby or babies for them.
Thats all I have to say on the matter. Its totally disgusting..the world in which we live.

[cadali]

So, Dan, out of all these hundreds of thousands of kids that are over-indulged with these trips, how many wind up raped, missing and/or dead? I haven't heard of any until now, although I'm sure there must be some incidents. What I hear of all the times are kids having car accidents and sometimes getting killed. There is far more danger in letting kids get their drivers licences than letting high achieving graduated seniors vacation together at the ocean or a tropical paradise.

[wreck]

I am going to take another angle. Drinking at 18, senior trips and "kids" leaving the nest have been going on for years and years. It is ABSOLUTELY the responsibility of parents to have full control and guidance of their kids,to instill in them right and wrong, and to impart their values to them. Part of raising your child is to also prepare them to go off on their own and to spread their wings. All of these kids were preparing to go off to college and getting ready to leave the nest. It could have just been as likely that these "kids" were off to join the Military, or to leave the nest to get a job and start their own lives.
We all made mistakes when we were given our own first chances to be on our own -- that is part of growing up. This was a terrible circumstance and unfortunately, in the big hard, cruel world -- terrible crimes happen sometimes.
Should Natalee's parents feel horrible for letting her go on a trip like this? Yes, they would NEVER do it again and will ALWAYS live with that the rest of their lives.
My parents would have let me go too. They trusted me and the way I was raised. They also knew that you just have to let kids grow up and leave the fold. That doesn't stop or mitigate their love for their kids the rest of their lives.

[Donna]

I am a parent.

That mean my kids hate me.

Why do I say that? Because I REFUSE to be their "friend" or "wanna hang with their friends". I do not let my children have a computer or tv in their rooms. My kids do not own cell phones. My kids have a curfew. My kids have rules in this house. Like I told them, this is NOT a democracy, this is a dictatorship. YOU will do as I say.....And I USE the word NO, more than I use the word YES. They are NOT handed cars... when they turn 16, get their drivers license and they EARN money to buy their car. I also tell them MY responsibilities to you are these: To give you unconditional love, to teach you a moral base, to put a roof over your head, food in your belly, and clothes on your back. NONE of those responsibilities that I have as a parent, includes you getting 100 dollars shoes, or the latest gadgets, or the trademark clothing. You will learn that people should accept you as a person, for WHO you are, rather then what staple of clothing you're wearing on your body. I also teach them, be careful of the company that you keep, because you can be drawn in and become like them.

I am a mother of 8. I have 3 older adult, responsible wonderful children. Who now have childen of their own. I have 2 teenagers and 3 more 10 and under, the youngest being 7. And I plan on all of them growing up with the mindset, that YOU earn your way through life, that NOTHING is given to you...and they are all taught right from wrong.

I do not believe in the adage that once a person reaches 18 yrs of old...they are FREE to do as they please. Not in this household, not while THEY are under MY roof. Until the time they move out and they can make a living on their own, are self sufficient, they will STILL live by my rules. Period. And if they don't like it, go on out there and see what LIFE is really like!

My children will NEVER get a trip paid for, to a party island. They will never get hotels rooms rented for them for prom nights. They aren't going to be allowed to have "kegger parties" at my house.

I am their parent. I am not their best friend.

[Yahulia]

kara borden's parents did nothing wrong except get killed for trying to be an authority in their daughter's life ... where are Ludwig's parents? There's nothing about them anywhere ... perhaps that's why he has a gun, was having sex. kara is probably pregnant and they didn't know how to handle the responsibility. morality isn't just for bible thumpers, it's for everyone who wants to live longer than 50, 18, and 14. parents have truly abdicated their roles and now the bordens make taking a stand look dangerous. mrs. twitty makes not taking a stand look frightful. the sad thing about christianity today is that it doesn't look any different from this crazy messed up world. jesus wasn't a christian folks, he was a jewish man who never carried a gun, never promoted promiscuity, never thought authority was something to fight against, went home with his parents from a jerusalem party that was full of family members without so much as a whine, he didn't hang out with friends, but adults, and never spoke of anger management. he just said' get rid of anger!' he was also made a man at 12 years old - not 18 after being babysat through his teenage years with parties, sex and drugs. i get tired of reading how christian some youth are when they behave as lawless as the rest of the world. quit telling them they have a right to their anger. quit letting them fade into the christian culture, and quit defining people by their religiousness when there is not any fruit of their faith. natalee holloway, kara borden and mr. ludwig are all products of a culture gone completely sour, haywire, and as someone above said so rightly - parents treating their children as pagan princes and princesses. for those of you who are christian, your children are princes and princessess of a great king - teach them to behave as such. for the rest of the world, sorry christians don't live up to the ways princes and princesses of such a great king should. we have become a sick example of nothing.

[solofara]

----- begin quote from "Mike" ---------
PARENTS! Point blank...stop being so fuc*ing LAZY. It takes work to keep track of your kid...even more to keep track and be involved in their life. Like America...parents come up with sooo many excuses for why THEIR child is so messed up or not succeding. Bottom line...children are a product of their parents. If parents dont take responsiblity...who will.
----- end quote from "Mike" ---------
Mike - you are only 23, the parent of a 15 month old kid. You have 17 YEARS of work ahead of you before you can authoritatively lecture on how the parent of a teenage girl should have raised them. A 15month old kid is no comparison to a teenager. Natalee Holloway is closer to your age, than your kid is to Natalee. Atleast she didn't have a kid while still very young.

[Donna]

Donna,
For the most part I agree with you, though with just one child I am not, nor need to be as stict.

However in the beginning I thought this is what Nat'lee told Joran: "Hitlers-sisters-daughter" that what this sounds like;
[quote]"I do not let my children have a computer or tv in their rooms. My kids do not own cell phones. My kids have a curfew. My kids have rules in this house. Like I told them, this is NOT a democracy, this is a dictatorship. YOU will do as I say.....And I USE the word NO, more than I use the word YES."[/quote]

I mostly turn it around.... I have no rules untill they are broken ;-)
Like that, it works.

"Think !" or "Take resopsibility" is mostly sufficient.

But he does get the gadgets, b/c I love them as well.

Posted by: DUTCH | Nov 15, 2005 7:35:09 PM

They can have their own gadgets, when they are OLD enough to purchase them. I do not hand MY children, everything in life. They are taught, you want something YOU earn it. Im not saying they don't get anything, they have an X-box, they have a computer (not in their rooms), they have stereo's etc, they get presents, but IF they TRULY want something, LIKE an I-pod....they have to EARN it...its not just handed to them...because they WANT it, or because its the newst fad, and they have to keep up with their friends, the joneses.

And Beth Twitty? Comparing me to her, is comparing apples and oranges. Beth herself said, along with Jugs that Beth was "part of the girls"....Big Hootie/Little Hootie. Bull crap. I am not my childs "buddy" ....and at least I KNOW where my adult children are, and none of them were sent to a island, for an all out exclusive drinking, gambling, Teens gone wild Trip!

[121212]

I agree with you solofara that Mike has alot of years of work ahead. But blasting him for having a kid young.....who the hell are you?????? I am 29 years old with a seven and four year old, and I am from Birmingham,AL. Sounds like you are lecturing a bit.......

[121212]

Donna,
My parents were not my "buddy" either. I had to earn everything that I had. I even had to earn my own money for my senior trip, but it still turned into a teens gone wild trip......and this was back in 1994. Most teens will find a way to rebel, even if the parents try to control it.

[flightoffancy]

And Beth Twitty? Comparing me to her, is comparing apples and oranges. Beth herself said, along with Jugs that Beth was "part of the girls"....Big Hootie/Little Hootie. Bull crap. I am not my childs "buddy" ....and at least I KNOW where my adult children are, and none of them were sent to a island, for an all out exclusive drinking, gambling, Teens gone wild Trip!

Posted by: Donna | Nov 15, 2005 8:01:27 PM

I totally agree with you Donna. I have three boys, all grown now and married. We did help them buy their first cars but they weren't expensive cars or hot rods, they were modest cars and SUV's the boys could live with. They had to pay for their insurance with after school jobs and they did very well. One was caught coming home somewhat drunk and didn't drive for a month. Believe me walking or calling a friend to take him somewhere taught him a lesson he didn't forget and the others learned from him. It only happened that once, thank the Lord. My husband or myself always waited up until the boys came home. We felt that was what a responsible parent did. I think the way you are raising your kids is comendable.

[Donna]

Donna,
My parents were not my "buddy" either. I had to earn everything that I had. I even had to earn my own money for my senior trip, but it still turned into a teens gone wild trip......and this was back in 1994. Most teens will find a way to rebel, even if the parents try to control it.

Posted by: 121212 | Nov 15, 2005 8:09:36 PM

Well mine didnt earn money to go on a Senior Trip..they earned money to help out with their college education. If they wanted to earn money to go on a trip to an all exclusive drinking anything goes party trip...then they could pay for college for themselves, and get their own place. A trip can come later, after an education, and a job, and rent. Its called having priorities.

[Isanah]

Well mine didnt earn money to go on a Senior Trip..they earned money to help out with their college education. If they wanted to earn money to go on a trip to an all exclusive drinking anything goes party trip...then they could pay for college for themselves, and get their own place. A trip can come later, after an education, and a job, and rent. Its called having priorities.

Posted by: Donna | Nov 15, 2005 9:36:44 PM

Donna,

You sound like a great parent! However, let's face it, unless you are very rich you have to have more priorities as to where money is spent in order to raise eight kids! There is nothing wrong about your values but you do seem to come through as a little harsh in that you take your parenting to the extreem of seriousness. Just because some of us differ, maybe a little more flexible, and provide certain things for our children that you may not agree with, does not mean that our parenting is any less admirable than yours.

I'm not a perfect parent, but I have strived to come pretty close to being one, and I have been a parent since I was 16. And guess what my now three adult children are close to perfect (if there is such a thing) and very responsible. My proudest accomplishement is daughter never became pregnant and sons have never impregnated anyone! lol! A particular goal of mine since they were like 8yrs old, to age specific gentle reminders...see that young girl with a baby, sons, I plan to be a grandmother someday, and you don't want a young girl pregnant whereas another man may be raising your child....Start young folks with this training, don't wait till hormones kick in, don't trust that your Christian values will be enough! (Isanah's well intended advise! lol)

They all had modest cars bought for them, they all had there auto insurance paid, and though they were not overly spoiled my many standards, they never lacked for anything they needed. They all know the lyrics to the Rolling Stone "You can't always get what you want, but you get what you need"! I also favorite the 'dictatorship' role, but with occasional flexibility. I don't believe in endless negotiation with children. In fact too many choices is confusing for very young children.

BTW, I moved out on my own with my daughter at age 16, had completed HS prior to her being born, and have been independent, never on social assistance, through working weekends and continuing my college education and becoming a RN (back then SSI from my father's death provided some income as long as you attended college till 22 yrs). All this by a woman that lost her Dad at 13, whose mother became mentally ill, never lacked for material things, but was starved for parental love and guidance.

In short, parenting should not be rigid and inflexible, it should be individual and done with the best intentions and able to recognize that one may not always be right 100% of the time. There should be a balance within the family of giving and receiving. Then we need to be humble and with God's grace those children grow up to make us proud. And, if they don't, we need to accept that we did the best we could at the time with our own personal vulnerabilities and strengths.

[grant g]

"some girl giving blow jobs all night long in a closet at a party and doing heroin or coke "

HAHAH Damn that sounds like some party. i've been to some crazy party's in my time but i've yet to hit one with coke, heroin AND some girl giving head in the closet..i gotta get out more often.

[Isanah]

HAHAH Damn that sounds like some party. i've been to some crazy party's in my time but i've yet to hit one with coke, heroin AND some girl giving head in the closet..i gotta get out more often.

Posted by: grant g | Nov 16, 2005 12:45:13 AM

I see you dove onto the highlights of this thread! Very informative forum, I'm glad you found something to peak your interest! LMAO

[Hobo]

Isanah: sounds like the one where Amber Frey met Scott Peterson.

[RICK]

Re-institute the military draft. All the illegals and welfare people will flee the country. Punks that don't go to college will be slapped around and not be mama's boys anymore. They'll grow up to be real men like George Bush and Ted Kennedy. Oh yeah, and John Kerry too. What a bunch of crap! Your tax dollars wasted on these jerks telling you what they're going to do with your hard earned money, whether you like it or not. Welfare mamas with rollers in their hair and rolled down nylons sitting in the laundramat with their fourteen kids, smoking cigarettes on your dime. Answer the phone and talk, it's your nickle, unless you're Beth Twittface and her non-accountable accounts. This is the best thing that could have happened to her. Continuous fame and fortune, TV, spending money, having drinks etc. on someone's donations. Does anyone really think that Jug Twitty cares? I know TJ Ward doesn't. He's probably happy to be out of her clutches.

[RICK]

isanah: Pique, you idiot! You must be a graduate of "The Great Society".

[MtnDva]

To the American Thinker...my parents "indulged" me and I went on beach trips, a cruise to the Bahamas and to Europe when I was in high school (senior year) AND went to Cancun in collge. I did partake of alot of alcohol but I was not going to have a screwfest. I went to hang out w/ my friends and have a good time which is what NH did. WTF difference does it make whether her parents paid or she saved up the money to go? How does that matter. Do you really think that this same thing could have not happened while out in their own hometowns on a Saturday night? Get real. The over and under priveleged kids of today are having sex, drinking and doing drugs, but NOT ALL OF THEM. And if they are SO WHAT??? That doesn't mean its ok to rape and murder someone.

[Rick]

"To the American Thinker...my parents "indulged" me and I went on beach trips, a cruise to the Bahamas and to Europe when I was in high school (senior year) AND went to Cancun in collge. I did partake of alot of alcohol but I was not going to have a screwfest. I went to hang out w/ my friends and have a good time which is what NH did. WTF difference does it make whether her parents paid or she saved up the money to go? "How does that matter. Do you really think that this same thing could have not happened while out in their own hometowns on a Saturday night? Get real. The over and under priveleged kids of today are having sex, drinking and doing drugs, but NOT ALL OF THEM. And if they are SO WHAT??? That doesn't mean its ok to rape and murder someone."

This child is absolutely correct. Like the adult who once told me children will do what they want to. Or the other adult who allowed teens to drink at his home because it's "just beer". So stop it parents. Stop trying to rear your children to be responsible members of society. I personally enjoy throwing away my hard earned money on drunk, drugged 16 year old welfare mothers who dont know "who da baby daddy". What I especially like is when one of these untended kids goes off the deep end and kills half of his class. I want to let my teenagers go to another country to get drunk and screw strangers. To facilitate that kind of behaviour, I will gleefully drop my 17 yo daughter off to spend the weekend with a 21 year old "friend" so she can crawl in bed with his 38 year old room mate. Yeah, dont even make an attempt to give your children a moral compass (Somehow, teaching them right from wrong has become religion) Give your daughters 1/2 million dollar 13th b-day parties!!

The preceding facetious statement is not my true feeling. Thank God mine are grown. I was a real asshole. Made the little boys come to my house to meet me. They had a curfew among other rules. Never even imagined letting them go to Cancun.

[Sue]

I myself gave my daughter a senior trip..
BUT I went with her .. her and I traveled to Austrailia and stayed with friends of mine
It was the best bonding trip i could have had with my child..I wanted a great memory before my daughter left the nest

[RICK]

How do you know she was raped and murdered? There is no body to prove this. BTW, what college did you go to? University of Red Slipper?

[inthethickofit]

Young people have been screwing each other since the dawn of time. Wealthy kids do it in Florida or Cancun or Aruba. Is anyone really surprised?

I wish the bible thumpers would take care of their own families before they try to lecture mine.

MrsLevy

Wow, THIS says much about the state of our society, when you have so-called parents like this one with this mind frame. Call me a bible-thumper if you like, but i'll TRY to instill self respect, dignity and self-worth into both my daughters and when the time comes, at least they will be well informed and will hopefully make the decision that is best for THEM, and nobody else.

[inthethickofit]

I am their parent. I am not their best friend.

Posted by: Donna

Donna,

I applaud you; although many here and elsewhere will find this appalling, this is exactly what we need more of because our society and our youth are out of control. I also had to earn everything myself, I began working summers at the age of 12 because my parents not only could not afford it, but would not indulge me if they could and I thank God for that because I am trying to do the same thing with my own kids now and thank my parents (RIP both of them) for what they instilled in me.

[Captain Justice]

Just to throw a wrinkle into this thread...I've noted the number of posts where people feel that kids are getting too much from parents, not knowing the value of a dollar etc.

I basically agree with this perspective, but in my opinion, the biggest social problem at work here is not permissive parents but competing parents.

I believe that most North American families are impacted by divorce, and as a result, we see many blended families (the Holloway-Twitty's, for example), who both have an interest in their shared offspring. However, it is my opinion that more often than not, or whether a sense of guilt is involved, or if kids have learned to play their divorced parents off one another, but parents pften try to "buy" their child's affection, or out-do the other parent in the mistaken belief that your child will love you more than your ex.

I see this all the time.

My nephew is inundated by expensive toys from his Dad on every Christmas and Birthday, and my sister keeps buying the kid expensive sports equipment to compete with the mini-motorcycle his dad buys him.

It gets so bad that when my nephew stayed with my family this past summer, and we celebrated his birthday, he couldn't care less for this underwater machine that pulls you around like the kind you see on aquatic shows...he used it once and turned up his nose at this expensive thing, while my kids just drooled over it and wondered why they never got "neat" toys like that.

I had to explain that:
a) We aren't made out of money, and that that we do have, we need for a new family boat and;

b) I have no idea why my sister would buy such a toy when she was complaining about living at my mom's house since her separation. Here she is supposed to be putting money aside, but if she can buy these kinds of things, she will never leave.

On another note, I have found it amusing that many of the youth from the upscale part of town are always the ones most prone to vehicle accidents, vandalism, home invasions and simple theft.

I was always brought up in the belief that the low-income ne'er-do-wells are the social problem, but my suburban town turns that notion upside down! Why not run that SUV into the neighbour's house in a drunken stupor when either Dad or step-dad will fork out coin to replace it.

A rich kid nailed my mom's car and turned it into a write-off from his own incompetence, but before he could be sued, his Dad had sent him to school in Germany for the next few years. The only person who suffered was my mom, who had to get a new car from out-of-pocket because the one she relied on was too old for a payout.

It makes one wonder.

CJ

[Isanah]

isanah: Pique, you idiot! You must be a graduate of "The Great Society".

Posted by: RICK | Nov 16, 2005 8:20:58 AM

Huh? I have no idea what this means? Am I being insulted? lol

[Isanah]

The Great Society

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/great.html

Rick,

Does your reference refer to the fact that I benefited from social security income extended until 22 years as long as the dependent attended college? Was this a 'product' from the goals of 'The Great Society'? Well if so, then yes, I did benefit from this. The SSI I received based on being a dependent of my deceased father's government SS payments did, in deed, benefit me. I had the wisdom to take advantage of this, thus having obtained an education while supplemented by my SSI and additional income from working. My older brother took the lump sum payment instead and boat a speed boat instead! He ran my deceased father's business into the ground (and the speed boat) and now as no formal education to fall back on. If this makes me an idiot, so be it!

[Isanah]

oops, bought a speed boat...