Another Enduring Mystery in the Natalee Holloway Story

Who slipped the shot of 151 to private dick T. J. Ward that keeps him yammering on so long and still so uninformed, even after he's no longer on the Twitty payroll? And WXIA has the nerve to call it an exclusive? Hint - Publishing nonsense noone else will isn't an exclusive, it's picking up the scraps.

ATLANTA, GA -- Dr. Phil McGraw of the "Dr. Phil" television show says he believes that missing Alabama teen Natalee Holloway is alive and is now a sex slave.

Other experts believe that view is ridiculous, including private investigator T.J. Ward.

Ward says its know(sic) that Holloway left the Carlos 'n Charlie's bar after consuming 151-proof vodka, and probably had a date rape drug put in her drink by a bartender.

He says it happens all the time in Aruba.

Ward says the investigation was bungled from the beginning, because a prominent family, the van der Sloots were involved.

Comments

[!]

Yep...that sounds right.

Just as good as anyone elses theory. :O)

[Jennifer]

Yes, my thoery is, Nataliee is drunk not drugged, she passes out on the beech. Either the waves or she drunkenly wlaks onto the surf & is pulled out to sea. Or the waves pull her out to seq, while she is passed out. Or, the fishermen on the beach discover her, takes he aboard their fishing boat & sells her into slavery after having their wya with her. Then, report that a crab basket, knife is missing from their hatch, to pull attention away from them?? But, where was Beth Twitty or he girlfriends & Champerones, that lal left the Island without even reporting her missing? Not so strange to me, it shows a point of her girl friends knowing she just like to take off (with men) & always made it back.

[Jody]

So now it is the bartender's fault? I guess Beth is going to zero in on him next. She needs to make up her mind, either the boys raped and killed Natalee or she has been sold as a sex slave.

Oh, but wait, this is Beth we are talking about. I forgot, she can have it both ways.

[m]

He says it happens all the time in Aruba.

Ward says the investigation was bungled from the beginning, because a prominent family, the van der Sloots were involved.

Posted by Dan in Natalee Holloway | Permalink

------------

like nancy will say, i disagree because i never heard of the van der Sloots before

prominent ---> my (%$^&**)back

[~} iwabwu {~]

I think date rape drugs can happen anywhere. There are reports of other women having fallen victim to such an event. So, the proof is having these women come forward.

[lotusjanis_33]

So now it is the bartender's fault? I guess Beth is going to zero in on him next. She needs to make up her mind, either the boys raped and killed Natalee or she has been sold as a sex slave.

Oh, but wait, this is Beth we are talking about. I forgot, she can have it both ways.

Posted by: Jody | Nov 16, 2005

*********************
Why are you mixing Beth in this one, jerk? She did not say that, Dr. Phil did.
And yes! Natalee is the victim of those four criminal dogs. Like it or not. Can not hide the truth with lies and lies and cover ups.

[lovaruba]

I SAW T.J.WARD A FEW TIMES ON TV,BLA,BLA BLA,
ALSO I SAW HIM ON ARUBA,HE ALWAYS WAS LOOKING FOR HOMOSEXUAL CONTACTS DURING HIS STAY,PERHAPS A FRIEND OF JOE(HOMO)BANANA,CRIMINAL,MOTHERS CHILD.

LOVARUBA

[jolari]

Vodka????? Thought ii was Rum. What vodka is 151 proof? Might have to change my brand when having a vodka martini.
Seems TJ is just looking for an opportunity to put his name in the news. Isn't he hoping to run for some office in GA?

[RdWarrior]

I guess you all wont be watching Dr Phil tomorrow....he is doing another show on the Natalee case, w Beth Twitty as a guest

Wonder what the Joran Lovers here will make up next?

[iiiangelgirliii]

I guess you all wont be watching Dr Phil tomorrow....he is doing another show on the Natalee case, w Beth Twitty as a guest

Wonder what the Joran Lovers here will make up next?

Posted by: RdWarrior | Nov 16, 2005 7:29:09 PM

your post does not make sense.

[doesanyonecareaboutnatalee]

I never have watched Dr Phil. Dont plan on starting now.

[Paulo]

FOR THE RECORD:

Seems to me that both T.J. Ward and Dr. Phil are trying relentlessly to cover their already tarnished reputations.

I did happen upon Beth Twitty (sorry for the O/T bit :~) last night on Greta’s “On the Record” show. What a mess this fiasco has become! Once, in good faith, there were literally thousands of us giving our time, energy, and money in the hope of somehow making right what so horribly went wrong in Aruba in the matter of Natalee Holloway.

Personally speaking I am appalled at what I am witnessing. A political response to boycott? Puleez! What on earth do they think this is going to help? Handling matters in this way—is just plain bad judgment. Example:

I have spent a great portion of my life traveling and residing in different countries. I have always wanted to visit for an extended period on the island of Aruba. I have done more information gathering about Aruba than most would; nonetheless, if I were to stay for even a short time I still would want to know where I’m going and know the island culture. That’s just plain unadulterated respect for Aruba and Arubans.

This past six months has shown me more than I could have ever hoped for with regards to knowing the culture and infrastructure of Aruba. I have made the decision to let my dream of visiting Aruba die. I no longer have any desire to visit with what I have witnessed in the non-investigation and buck passing that has gone on vis-a-vie Natalee. I don’t need to boycott anything; it’s my right to spend my bux where I want and Aruba has been crossed off the list.

Paulo

[mchenry]

Isn't it odd that the Aruba LE NEVER questioned the bartender and now he is no longer on the Island?

[jacndaves]

I do care about Natalee, it's not her fault and I wish I knew wher she was so we can this over with.

Posted by: Arubaanse | Nov 16, 2005 2:04:00 PM

Why am I not surprised. Seems to fit the shotty investigative work from the beginning of this case.

[indianaredneck]

Mchenry it is not odd it is a cover up or it is a third rate police force in over it's head take your pick or maybe 50% of each.

[dianne]

Say what you what but the facts are... Natalee is missing, and the goverment in Aruba is covering it up. Aruba is not a safe place to vacation. Especially if your American. For the safety of all tourist do not travel to Aruba or do it at your own risk. If something happens, your on your own.

[katya]

Isn't it odd that the Aruba LE NEVER questioned the bartender and now he is no longer on the Island?

Posted by: mchenry

Can you provide a link for that?

All the bartenders were questioned and I have heard nothing about any of them leaving the island. Put up or shut up. TIA

[nursemind]

So now it is the bartender's fault? I guess Beth is going to zero in on him next. She needs to make up her mind, either the boys raped and killed Natalee or she has been sold as a sex slave.

Oh, but wait, this is Beth we are talking about. I forgot, she can have it both ways.

Posted by: Jody | Nov 16, 2005 6:15:28 PM

LOL!! And to think there's probably more to come.

[westcoaster]

So now it is the bartender's fault? I guess Beth is going to zero in on him next. She needs to make up her mind, either the boys raped and killed Natalee or she has been sold as a sex slave.
Oh, but wait, this is Beth we are talking about. I forgot, she can have it both ways.
Posted by: Jody | Nov 16, 2005

You're so blinded by your hatred of Beth Twitty, that you chose to ignore who said what comments, neither of which were said by her. Perhaps an eye exam is in order...can you see how many fingers I have raised?

[Robert]

And yes! Natalee is the victim of those four criminal dogs. Like it or not. Can not hide the truth with lies and lies and cover ups.

Posted by: lotusjanis_33 | Nov 16, 2005 6:49:30 PM

_______________________________

Here we go again. What evidence do you have against who you call "criminal dogs?" Stop being emotional and deal in facts.

[david r]

I think the boys made a practice of targeting girls on their last night of partying, and Natalee was the unfortunate one they picked. I think she was naive and inexpereinced, and had no business being allowed to go down there unsupervised as they were. She overdid it. She miscalculated. She ODed from the rum & the date rape drug. Joran called Daddy. Paulus had the body dumped at sea. No body, no crime. And no investigation, either.

[mchenry]

When Dompig came back on the case, he said the bartender working that night was never interviewed and has left the Island. He was trying to locate him.

[Arubaanse]

Why am I not surprised. Seems to fit the shotty investigative work from the beginning of this case.

Posted by: jacndaves | Nov 16, 2005 8:15:49 PM

What does that have to do with my comment? pls ,explain cuz i didn't get it.

[hango]

Yes Nathalee is responsible for her actions. If she hadn't got drunk and acted like a slut leaving with three guys, then she would still be here.

[Arubaanse]

Yes Nathalee is responsible for her actions. If she hadn't got drunk and acted like a slut leaving with three guys, then she would still be here.

Posted by: hango | Nov 16, 2005 11:01:01 PM

But still doesn't give anybody the right to take her life.

[BamaRN]

Here we go with the date rape drug...Again.

There IS NOT one shred of evidence that Natalee was slipped any type of date rape drug!!
Natalee was drunk yes...drugged no!!

Date rape drugs produce specific symptoms during the induction phase of the drug effects and they work very quickly (within 5 to 10 minutes) by rendering the victim helpless and unconscious and the victim stays totally unconscious for 8 to 12 hours. The victim usually does not have any recollection that anything has occurred and most victims only usually assume that they had too much alcohol to drink.

If Natalee was slipped a date rape drug,she would have passed out either in front of Carlos and Charlie's or while she and Joran were walking down the street behind another group of MB teens that was in front of them.

Beth is the one who first stated that Natalee was slipped a date rape drug in the first few days after Natalee's disappearance plus she also stated that Natalee was kidnapped,gang raped and then murdered and buried by the three suspects of which there is not one shred of evidence that supports Beth's allegations.

It is obvious that Natalee willingly left with Joran and they most likely had some type of consensual sex with each other and this was Natalee's free will and Joran's free will to do this and they are/were old enough and mature enough to make the decision to have sex with each other.

As far as the sex is concerned, Natalee was not doing anything different than most other MB females were doing before and during the trip to Aruba.

There are several reports that Natalee was sexually active with other MB males before she even went to Aruba and she was sexually active with some of the MB males while in Aruba and she was involved with at least one other person that was called blue eyes who was in some countries military and was in Aruba. There is a report that Natalee supposedly called Beth several times on the phone and stated that she was in love or something to this effect with this person called blue eyes. The person that Natalee may have been referring to as blue eyes just mite be the person in the photo that is sitting at the bar looking up at Natalee when she was on the bar that only shows Natalee's right arm in the severely cropped photo.
To me this person looks like they have a fairly close cropped haircut that is pretty much standard in most countries military personnel.

Most people seem to forget that alcohol is a drug. And alcohol is one of the oldest and most effective date rape drugs available and it is used with great success on females and male alike all over the world every night in bars,clubs and soft candle light dinners at nice restaurants or at some persons home.

Fact is...if a female is already interested in a male,very little if any alcohol is required in order for a sexual encounter to take place.
Sex dont take place unless the female wants it to take place and this also still applies even in marriage.

[Betty]

BamaRN, you sure make alot of sense..and for the rest of the posts it doesn't make any difference what Joes past is..he is trying to help find Natalie, but it is taking so long to check out the other island (Columbia) where she is possibly being used as a madam or sex slave.
As far as the three other young me..I doubt if they had anything to do with her disappearance.
I know one of them, and he is a great person. So cool your jets! Natalie will be found and maybe will return home.

[Justus]

BamaRN - Responses to your statements with expert testimony.

Statement 1: Date rape drugs produce specific symptoms during the induction phase of the drug effects and they work very quickly (within 5 to 10 minutes) by rendering the victim helpless and unconscious and the victim stays totally unconscious for 8 to 12 hours. The victim usually does not have any recollection that anything has occurred and most victims only usually assume that they had too much alcohol to drink.

Statement 2: If Natalee was slipped a date rape drug,she would have passed out either in front of Carlos and Charlie's or while she and Joran were walking down the street behind another group of MB teens that was in front of them.

(FALSE – date rape drugs can leave the victim able to talk, walk but not remember. During this time victims are highly susceptible to auto suggestion.
For current reliable information: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050825dater.html)

[kin]

From the HyScience link:
And in closing, let's have a question. Does anyone find it strange that once the yellow ribbons started coming down in Mountain Brook, AL, a mysterious telephone call comes from Mexico claiming to be from Natalee?
-------
Does anyone find it strange that HyScience throws out BS! night after night and never gets called on it? I asked before "who is this Harry Tho?" and either nobody knows or nobody wants to tell. You can believe him if you want, I chose to believe there's a sucker born every day.

Pssst! There is no mysterious link. The yellow ribbons are coming down because the holidays are coming and the weather is changing. They're being stored, just like the memorial board, not thrown away in the trash. There was a call but it came 6-8 weeks ago and the caller never claimed to be Natalee. Dave said he doesn't believe it was her, Beth pretty much agreed but to be 100% sure she wanted it checked out. There is a "rumor" going around the island that Natalee is alive in Mexico. This was all on the cable news shows tonight and HT always does a nightly recap so why did he play this "in closing" mind game and why would anyone fall for it?

[JWard]

Was I hearing things? I thought BHT said the yellow ribbons were coming down because they we starting to fade. I guess one of the MB neighbors complained.

I also thought BHT said something about signing them, not storing them. But maybe I just expect BHT to say the most absurd thing.

I think she was talking to Greta, but I can't find a transcript.

[berry]

When Dompig came back on the case, he said the bartender working that night was never interviewed and has left the Island. He was trying to locate him.

Posted by: mchenry
________________________________

I cannot find any statement where Dompig addresses a missing bartender. There is/was a missing jogger. I did make a note early on about personnel at C and C's, including the manager, being interviewed by police. I did find a reference that Joran said Natalee called the bartender by name the last night.

This is interesting information - but you need to provide some kind of transcript quote or a link.

[teresa]

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=73463

Have you heard of AMY BRADLEY? She is from my hometown, missing since 1998.

[abott]

...probably had a date rape drug put in her drink by a bartender.

The word "probably" means speculation...
I don't think I ever heard this before and there is no real motive. I rather check the bartender for my correct change...

I think that Johan has a more valid reason to do this.

[RICK]

FINALLY, after months of inquiry, we hear from TJ Ward. What a blessing! I hope he gets back on the case, because he found Natalee. Jossy Mansur did too. Anyway, maybe he'll be on Greta soon. I sure hope so. Now, where's Arlene Ellis Schipper?

[Observer]

Hey Lovearuba:

Well hey there you have it..... he didn't meet up with Paul Van der Sloot... as in his Tickle website he says he is bisexual. Then TJ Ward may have changed his viewpoint maybe....

[BamaRN]

Hello Justus,

Your link to the Mormon Meridian Magazine where The Latter Day Saints Gather is a dud like your false expert information you provided!
I have no ideal as to why the Mormon church or at least factions of the Mormon church would be so concerned about date rape drugs when they openly practice child rape,incest,and openly practice bigamy where males have 2 to 10 wifes each in all different age groups and no telling what all else the bigots practice!
Did they ever catch that numbskull who moved his Mormon church faction from Nevada to El Dorado, Texas??

I'll stick with what I have learned from my textbooks and professors who are the real experts that are Medical Doctors who are clinical professors in Anesthesiology,Pharmacology,Pharmacokinetics/Toxicokinetics,Toxicology just to mention a few subject areas.
My information is from current highly reliable medical resources.

I would like to know which specific drug and what specific dose of the drug you are referring to that would leave the victim able to walk and talk but not remember and still leave the victim susceptible to verbal suggestion???

What you are trying to suggest is the victim is in a zombie like state and this simply is not the case!!

What you have failed to realize a person under the influence of alcohol depending on the amount consumed can also be in a verbal suggestive state of consciousness. Alcohol can also be considered a date rape drug and the alcohol effects a female more quickly than it does a male.

During the first few minutes or during the induction phase the pharmacological effects of both flunitrazepam (Rohypnol)and GHB, the victim starts exhibiting the symptoms of varying degrees of alcohol intoxication and then the victim starts appearing to look and act very intoxicated and usually just before this point the perpetrator escorts the victim out of the club before the victim goes into unconsciousness to the place where the assault is to take place. If the victim is not closely monitored they can and do go into respiratory arrest and/or choke to death on their own vomit since they dont have an intact gag reflex. There are other things that can also occur that can result in death.

[playground thug]

Can someone tell me if the answers to all three of these questions is "true?"
1) There is not one shred of evidence that NH was kidnapped into the sex trade.
2) There is not one shred of evidence that NH was murdered.
3) There is not one shred of evidence that NH is even dead

[Jon]

There are several reports that Natalee was sexually active with other MB males before she even went to Aruba and she was sexually active with some of the MB males while in Aruba and she was involved with at least one other person that was called blue eyes who was in some countries military and was in Aruba. There is a report that Natalee supposedly called Beth several times on the phone and stated that she was in love or something to this effect with this person called blue eyes. The person that Natalee may have been referring to as blue eyes just mite be the person in the photo that is sitting at the bar looking up at Natalee when she was on the bar that only shows Natalee's right arm in the severely cropped photo.
To me this person looks like they have a fairly close cropped haircut that is pretty much standard in most countries military personnel.

Most people seem to forget that alcohol is a drug. And alcohol is one of the oldest and most effective date rape drugs available and it is used with great success on females and male alike all over the world every night in bars,clubs and soft candle light dinners at nice restaurants or at some persons home.

Fact is...if a female is already interested in a male,very little if any alcohol is required in order for a sexual encounter to take place.
Sex dont take place unless the female wants it to take place and this also still applies even in marriage.

Posted by: BamaRN

Voices heard only by you do not count as "reports". There is no credible evidence that Natalee was ever "sexually active" with anyone, and at least two people (one of Natalee's friends, and Joran himself) have stated that Natalee told them she was a virgin.

The "report" that Natalee called her mother from Aruba about "blue eyes" is a transparently bogus rumor, as Beth has said she last spoke to Natalee before she left, and it is not credible that she would lie about that, for the obvious reasons.

As for whether a date rape drug would have incapacitated Natalee before she got to the car, that would depend on her having consumed an incapacitating dose, which may not have been the case if she was given a spiked drink but did not finish it.

[BamaRN]

Posted by: Jon Nov 17,2005 8:22:19 PM

Statement:
Voices heard only by you do not count as "reports". There is no Credible evidence thar Natalee was ever "Sexually active" with anyone,and at least two two people )one of Natalee's friends,and Joran himself) have stated that Natalee told them she was a virgin.

Response:
Your so called voices heard only by me is very laughable to say the least. Many other people must have also heard the same voices.
There is plenty of credible evidence that not only Natalee but most of her friends as well were also sexually active. If you want the evidence,go pry it out of several different PPHA clinics in the Brimingham area.
Most of Natalee's so called friends are also known liars and they have not told the whole truth about Natalee and her actions before she left Mountain Brook and while she was in Aruba. The friend of Natalee that you are referring to is no more a virgin than Natalee was. I hope you are not going to try to tell us that Natalee and Joran were in the backseat of Deepaks car playing patty cake. Females also lie to each other regarding the status of their virginity and if they are sexually active or not. Even Beth did not know the true status of her daughters virginity as she claimed that she did!

Statement:
The "report" that Natalee called her mother from Aruba about "blue eyse" is a transparently bogus rumor, as beth has said she last spoke to Natalee before she left,and it is not credible that she would lie about that,for the obvious reasons.

Response:
Actually, I have always maintained that Natalee and Beth were fighting like cats and dogs with each other before Natalee even left to go on the trip to Aruba. It would be highly unusual for Mothers and daughters not to be fighting with each other about something or the other.
The original posters that were put up in Aruba, the way that they were worded indicated that they were fighting about something!
Of course, everyone knows that Beth is a known liar and she has not told the truth about many different things including phone calls to or from Aruba.
There is no evidence that Natalee called Beth about "blue eye" but on the the other hand there is no evidence that she did not call Beth either. Obviously, before Beth and her posse arrived in Aruba by private jet, Beth was not sure if Natalee ran off with blue eyes or Joran or someone else or if Natalee had a mental meltdown and that was why she had the MedJet Assist aircraft waiting on standby for two days at the Aruba airport while they went looking for Natalee.

Statement:
As for whether a date rape drug would have incapacitated Natalee before she got to the car,that would depend on her having consumed an incapacitating dose,which may not have been the case if she was given a spiked drink but did not finish it.

Response:
I have always maintained that Natalee WAS NOT slipped ANY TYPE of date rape drug at Carlos and Charlie's.
I have also always maintained that Natalee was only drunk and may have been also hopped up on XTC or some other type of street drug.
I have also maintained that the possibility also exist that Natalee was taking a antidepressant and a bronchodilator medications and could have had a severe drug/alcohol reaction.
There is a very high probability that Natalee was taking antidepressant medication and she either stop taking the medication or she mixed it with alcohol and this cause her make all the weird statements to Joran about her home life and her mother was like Hitlers sisters daughter or Natalee was in the process of having a mental meltdown due to depression.
I cant prove it yet, but I highly suspect that Natalee was in the process of having a mental meltdown and called Beth and that was the main reason why Beth had Natalee's doctor request that the MedJetAssist aircraft be sent down to Aruba to pick Natalee up when they found her. There has to be a valid medical reason for the MedJetAssist aircraft to be dispatched to Aruba cause they dont send this type of highly specialized intensive care aircraft out of country to pick up and transport drunken drugged out patients.

[BamaRN]

Hello Playground thug,

As far as anyone can determine at this time,all three of your statements are true.

[BamaRN]

Hello Betty,

Thanks for your commits.

Actually, I dont think I have made any nedative or positive commits at all about Joe Mama trying to find Natalee. I hope he and anyone one else who can help find Natalee has my full blessing. However, at the same time if he or anyone else including that Dr.Phil numbskull are only doing this for some type of publicity stunt,they need their butts kicked really hard.

I too think that Joran,Paulus,Deepak and Satish did not do anything to Natalee either.
There is not one shred of evidence that proves they did anything to Natalee one way or the other.

If it is ok, I will send you an email to your address cause I would like to discuss something else in private with you.

My jets are in reality pretty cool..hehehehehehe

[rlee]

natalee is hopefully alive somewhere, and will come home soon. Could she be into sex slavery? yes, possibly. it is possible. This trade is rampant, most girls and boys are not American. It is rampant in Europe, and Asia, and in South America. It is not publically talked about much, because alot of the "clients" are very prominent men, some high ranking officials from various countries. This is how alot of these countries make their money too. What wife wants to hear her husband went to a Carribean brothel to pay $1000 to have one hour of sex with a 17 year old girl. Alot of girls are lured into this. Some do it to help out their family, in Asia. Some are kidnapped into it. Amy Bradley was stolen, no one on that ship did anything to help her family. They did not have posters all over to find her. They were told it would "alarm" the other passengers. Like the other passengers would have most likely helped find her or said if they saw something. The "clients" who buy time with these innocent kids ought to be thrown into jail for ever, and the people behind it who kidnap these kids??? They should be executed -- all of them. It is a network of elusive sickos who do this. No one thought much of a threat seriously from Al Qaida until the Twin Towers blew up...right? Well, if anything comes of this, hopefully Natalee will be found, and resolution given to her family and this will shed light on a business that has been going on for centuries and STOP it.

As for those three boys, they know something, and they aren't telling. I hope they are brought to justice for whatever part they played in it.

[hockeygirl]

I too think that Joran,Paulus,Deepak and Satish did not do anything to Natalee either.
There is not one shred of evidence that proves they did anything to Natalee one way or the other.

If it is ok, I will send you an email to your address cause I would like to discuss something else in private with you.

My jets are in reality pretty cool..hehehehehehe

Posted by: BamaRN | Nov 18, 2005 12:47:45 AM

"EVIDENCE" consists of testimony, facts, documents and physical evidence. For example: 3 boys seen driving vic away from bar= fact (evidence); vic seen stumbling drunk when left bar and got in car = fact & (witness) testimony (evidence); 3 boys drive vic to beach and one boy kisses vic on beach = (admission) testimony (evidence); 3 boys are last to have seen, and been with, vic while alive=fact (evidence); admission and/or confession of suspect that 3 boys all had sex with vic that same night=(admission) testimony (evidence); vic never heard from or seen again after having left bar with boys = fact (evidence).
Of course, if a body were recovered, we would probably also have physical evidence such as semen (3 types? ), DNA (ditto), abrasions and bruises, possible cracking of the skull with a blunt object and/or subhematoma, possible stab wounds etc.

All these types of evidence,THAT ARE ALREADY ESTABLISHED, are valid and admissible in a criminal trial for kidnapping, battery, rape,and possibly murder. (You might want to research the case of the mother and son currently in prison for murdering their wealthy landlord--the point? There was never any body found.) Further, testimony by third party witnesses as to vic's (Natalee's) physical and mental state of mind (i.e. too drunk to walk properly, let alone be able to knowlingly give valid consent) is also "evidence" and admissible.

Let's have a recap:
(1) Forcibly taking physical control of vic w/o vic's consent or moving or transporting vic without vic's consent = kidnapping. Also, refusing to allow vic to leave after initial consent-but change of mind-kidnapping. (Note that kidnapping does not require transport of the vic; meremy holding vic in a locked room with no escape=kidnapping.)
(2) Forcibly detaining, or restraining, vic (w/o consent) so that vic is not free to leave = kidnapping
(3) Consent must be SPOKEN OR WRITTEN and must be freely, knowingly and voluntarily given by the vic, w/o the use of drugs, alcohol, force, coercion, intimidation ("Who would believe you against us? "My dad is a judge...")threats, or abuse (or threats of abuse to vic or vic's family or threats to sully girl's reputation as a "Goody Two Shoes").
(4) Consent only applies to acts/matters that have been consented to within bounds of agreed time frame; i.e."I will have sex with you" does not mean "I will have sex with your friends too" or "I will have sex with you for as long as you want, as many times as you want, any way you want...etc."
(5) Any change in environment, location, specifics, persons involved, number of persons involved, acts or matters outside of or in addition to subject matter of the "first consent", or FRAUD (i.e. "It will just be us baby-and I won't go all the way" etc.), void the prior consent in its entirety, and may, in addition, = additional crimes if acted upon.
(6) Consent, once given, and even after given, may be revoked at option of the vic, at any time and at any place without reason or explanation (i.e. vic can "change her mind") and any such revocation voids the prior "consent" as of that moment.
(7) Once a person intentionally puts another person in a knowingly dangerous situation or leaves a vic in a knowingly unsafe location, that person will be liable for any harm that vic suffers as a result of that abandonment (i.e. vic left naked on cold beach after being raped and subsequently dies from exposure = rape AND murder).

In applying this law to the Boys' action/inaction, let's see what we can come up with:
(1) According to numerous witnesses and the boys, Nat was stumbling drunk as she left Carlos & Charlie's
(2) Joran admits to taking Nat to beach and to "kissing" her
(3) Deepak claims they all had sex with her
(4) Joran claims he left her at beach
(5) Natalee never seen/heard from again.

Some initial points:
(1) If Nat was stumbling drunk in beginning outside bar, Q as to whether she gave legal consent, or could have-as to getting in car, as to driving to beach and not hotel, as to driving to beach and not Joran's house (or vice-versa)
(2) Even if Nat "sober enough" to consent to get in car and/or drive to beach, did she also consent to "making out" with Joran? With other 2 watching and/or there? Did she agree to kissing but nothing more? Did Joran tell her he wanted nothing more? And, even more troubling, did Joran tell Natalee that only he would "make out" with her?

Even though we only have THEIR side(s) of the story, part of that story involves Deepak's admission that alll 3 had sex with Natalee, which raises some very troubling questions:

(1) If we believe the suspects' position that Nat was lucid and could and did give legal consent to get in car and/or go to beach, don't we also have to believe that Nat could and did give legal consent to having sex with all three of the boys?? (In order to find Deepak credible.) and
(2) If we believe the boys' story that Nat was lucid at the beach, we must also believe that absent more liquor or drugs administered at the beach, Natalee made a knowing and consensual decision to have sex with three different boys. It seems to me that this is really where the boys' lies break down. Nat supposedly had expressesd some level of interest in Joran on previous occasions; there is NO EVIDENCE of her ever having expressed such interest in the two Kalpoe brothers or any type of interest in boys like the Kalpoes. And the reason is obvious-they weren't her type! Joran was tall, white, clean cut, athletic, smart, cosmopolitan; the Kalpoe Bros. were dark, small and somewhat "gangsta" looking.
Even if Nat was sober enough to willingly consent to getting in that car, even if she was sober enough to willingly consent to being driven to the beach, even if she was sober enough to have willingly consented to "making out" with Joran on the beach-and possibly even to "going all the way" WITH JORAN- there is NO WAY that she would have then willingly consented to being slobbered over, groped, pulled at and f----d by two boys that she had no interest in, probably looked down on and never would have even had as friends; they were not at her level physically, economically or academically. The ONLY way "all of ...[the boys would have] had sex with Natalee" would have been if Joran and one of the brothers held her down while the other raped her OR if she had been unconscious due to a date rape drug or severe intoxication rendering her powerless to defend herself. The Kalpoe brothers are scrawny, sweaty, swarthy, sleezy, low-lifes that Natalee wouldn't have looked twice at or given the time of day to. To suggest that she would have willingly consented while sober and lucid to making love with either of them is outrageous, absurd and defies common sense.

BamaRN: so you still think the boys "did nothing?" That Paulus did nothing? Hmmm, ever hear of obstruction of justice? Destruction of evidence. Do you know what happens to American lawyers that counsel anyone to hide or destroy evidence? They are disbarred. Let's hope you feel that way when you see your mother, sister, daughter, cousin or friend, half-naked, bloody and lifeless at the morgue after a "date" with three of her male acquaintances.

[hockeygirl]

"EVIDENCE" consists of testimony, facts, documents and physical evidence. For example: 3 boys seen driving vic away from bar= fact (evidence); vic seen stumbling drunk when left bar and got in car = fact & (witness) testimony (evidence); 3 boys drive vic to beach and one boy kisses vic on beach = (admission) testimony (evidence); 3 boys are last to have seen, and been with, vic while alive=fact (evidence); admission and/or confession of suspect that 3 boys all had sex with vic that same night=(admission) testimony (evidence); vic never heard from or seen again after having left bar with boys = fact (evidence).
Of course, if a body were recovered, we would probably also have physical evidence such as semen (3 types? ), DNA (ditto), abrasions and bruises, possible cracking of the skull with a blunt object and/or subhematoma, possible stab wounds etc.

All these types of evidence,THAT ARE ALREADY ESTABLISHED, are valid and admissible in a criminal trial for kidnapping, battery, rape,and possibly murder. (You might want to research the case of the mother and son currently in prison for murdering their wealthy landlord--the point? There was never any body found.) Further, testimony by third party witnesses as to vic's (Natalee's) physical and mental state of mind (i.e. too drunk to walk properly, let alone be able to knowlingly give valid consent) is also "evidence" and admissible.

Let's have a recap:
(1) Forcibly taking physical control of vic w/o vic's consent or moving or transporting vic without vic's consent = kidnapping. Also, refusing to allow vic to leave after initial consent-but change of mind-kidnapping. (Note that kidnapping does not require transport of the vic; meremy holding vic in a locked room with no escape=kidnapping.)
(2) Forcibly detaining, or restraining, vic (w/o consent) so that vic is not free to leave = kidnapping
(3) Consent must be SPOKEN OR WRITTEN and must be freely, knowingly and voluntarily given by the vic, w/o the use of drugs, alcohol, force, coercion, intimidation ("Who would believe you against us? "My dad is a judge...")threats, or abuse (or threats of abuse to vic or vic's family or threats to sully girl's reputation as a "Goody Two Shoes").
(4) Consent only applies to acts/matters that have been consented to within bounds of agreed time frame; i.e."I will have sex with you" does not mean "I will have sex with your friends too" or "I will have sex with you for as long as you want, as many times as you want, any way you want...etc."
(5) Any change in environment, location, specifics, persons involved, number of persons involved, acts or matters outside of or in addition to subject matter of the "first consent", or FRAUD (i.e. "It will just be us baby-and I won't go all the way" etc.), void the prior consent in its entirety, and may, in addition, = additional crimes if acted upon.
(6) Consent, once given, and even after given, may be revoked at option of the vic, at any time and at any place without reason or explanation (i.e. vic can "change her mind") and any such revocation voids the prior "consent" as of that moment.
(7) Once a person intentionally puts another person in a knowingly dangerous situation or leaves a vic in a knowingly unsafe location, that person will be liable for any harm that vic suffers as a result of that abandonment (i.e. vic left naked on cold beach after being raped and subsequently dies from exposure = rape AND murder).

In applying this law to the Boys' action/inaction, let's see what we can come up with:
(1) According to numerous witnesses and the boys, Nat was stumbling drunk as she left Carlos & Charlie's
(2) Joran admits to taking Nat to beach and to "kissing" her
(3) Deepak claims they all had sex with her
(4) Joran claims he left her at beach
(5) Natalee never seen/heard from again.

Some initial points:
(1) If Nat was stumbling drunk in beginning outside bar, Q as to whether she gave legal consent, or could have-as to getting in car, as to driving to beach and not hotel, as to driving to beach and not Joran's house (or vice-versa)
(2) Even if Nat "sober enough" to consent to get in car and/or drive to beach, did she also consent to "making out" with Joran? With other 2 watching and/or there? Did she agree to kissing but nothing more? Did Joran tell her he wanted nothing more? And, even more troubling, did Joran tell Natalee that only he would "make out" with her?

Even though we only have THEIR side(s) of the story, part of that story involves Deepak's admission that alll 3 had sex with Natalee, which raises some very troubling questions:

(1) If we believe the suspects' position that Nat was lucid and could and did give legal consent to get in car and/or go to beach, don't we also have to believe that Nat could and did give legal consent to having sex with all three of the boys?? (In order to find Deepak credible.) and
(2) If we believe the boys' story that Nat was lucid at the beach, we must also believe that absent more liquor or drugs administered at the beach, Natalee made a knowing and consensual decision to have sex with three different boys. It seems to me that this is really where the boys' lies break down. Nat supposedly had expressesd some level of interest in Joran on previous occasions; there is NO EVIDENCE of her ever having expressed such interest in the two Kalpoe brothers or any type of interest in boys like the Kalpoes. And the reason is obvious-they weren't her type! Joran was tall, white, clean cut, athletic, smart, cosmopolitan; the Kalpoe Bros. were dark, small and somewhat "gangsta" looking.
Even if Nat was sober enough to willingly consent to getting in that car, even if she was sober enough to willingly consent to being driven to the beach, even if she was sober enough to have willingly consented to "making out" with Joran on the beach-and possibly even to "going all the way" WITH JORAN- there is NO WAY that she would have then willingly consented to being slobbered over, groped, pulled at and f----d by two boys that she had no interest in, probably looked down on and never would have even had as friends; they were not at her level physically, economically or academically. The ONLY way "all of ...[the boys would have] had sex with Natalee" would have been if Joran and one of the brothers held her down while the other raped her OR if she had been unconscious due to a date rape drug or severe intoxication rendering her powerless to defend herself. The Kalpoe brothers are scrawny, sweaty, swarthy, sleezy, low-lifes that Natalee wouldn't have looked twice at or given the time of day to. To suggest that she would have willingly consented while sober and lucid to making love with either of them is outrageous, absurd and defies common sense.

Can anyone still logically believe that the boys "did nothing?" That Paulus did nothing? Hmmm, ever hear of obstruction of justice? Destruction of evidence. Do you know what happens to American lawyers that counsel anyone to hide or destroy evidence? They are disbarred. Let's hope that the Beth Bashers and JoranDP Fan Club out there feels that way when they see their mother, sister, daughter, cousin or girlfriend/wife, half-naked, bloody and lifeless at the morgue after getting a ride home from 3 men that "did nothing wrong."

[Skyboxx]

Folks,

As I said in June, July, August, Sept and so on, this case was about the Ted Kennedy-esque of the Vandersloots. Ted got away with the demise of Mary Jo and VDS are getting away with Natalee Holloways rape, disappearance and more than likely demise. Paulus VDS holds the key and the sooner they put pressure on him, the sooner this thing gets solved. I told everytone back in August that as soon as the kid gets released, they high tail it back to Holland. Well folks, that what they did. I just wish Anita VDS would come forward and tell what she now must know about Paulus.....