What's With The Skeeter's Tapes?

It's been close to a week since private dick Jamie Skeeters allegedly broke significant news on the Dr. Phil show with some curious tapes which seemed to conflict with earlier testimony by suspects in the Natalee Holloway case - and still no news?

There isn't much word from Aruba on the tapes but what I am hearing suggests Skeeters may want to check his Fed Ex insurance certificate on the tapes that weren't sent - but then, he might not have one if they were worthless.

Unconfirmed reports seem to indicate that for all the talk, Aruban authorities have yet to gain possession of anything which can be termed original, and consequently untampered with.

Is this really a big surprise?

It's only my opinion, but if these tapes turn out to be bogus as some suggest, perhaps they should lead to the arrest of someone other than one of the three suspects? Or maybe simply banning certain people from the island at this point would be the better move.

There's no justification for fraud, assuming it's being committed.

Comments

[lawbster]

it's not only YOUR opinion, Dan. ;)

[ProudAmerican]

I heard on one of the chanels.. (fox, msnbc, cnn?? dont remember) that the tapes are being sent from the FBI to Aruba by Wednesday..

[Smokey]

Skeet Skeet Skeet, good shit dan

[dave]

Very much agreed. If these tapes turn out to be fraudulent then I suggest we all boycott the Dr. Phil show, or at least make sure the world knows they perpetuated this fraud. There has got to be a penalty for providing false evidence to the FBI, and if Skeeters is guilt of this, then I suggest we enforce such a penalty.

[Justice for Natalee]

Wednesday is also the day I heard.

[dave]

There isn't much word from Aruba on the tapes but what I am hearing suggests Skeeters may want to check his Fed Ex insurance certificate on the tapes that weren't sent - but then, he might not have one if they were worthless.

-------------------

Based on what Dompig has said, the issue is going to be with the FBI, not Skeeters. Apparently the FBI sent Janssen and email saying they would get the tapes to her as soon as possible. So it sounds like any problem in the tapes getting there is the fault of the FBI and not Skeeters. I also heard that the tapes should be arriving Wednesday.

[jgirl]

Dan, I think the tapes are fraudulent, and were an attempt to frame, due to
frustration over the case not being solved.

[chip]

i posted this yesterday on the discussion board

i return humbled by my defense of skeeter's tape last week

why was it not given to fbi in july?
why was it only given over to them 2 weeks ago?
why has aruban law enforcement still not recieved it?
why have we seen no video?
why have we only heard the same sound bites?

Posted by: chip | Oct 17, 2005 2:24:09 PM

i really want to know the answer to these questions...........imho if these tapes are a farce....& it appears to me that they are.........
the credibility of the msm & the credibility of the twittys role in this investigation is damaged beyond repair...........& i never thought i could feel this way ( about beth........i long ago gave up on the media coverage )

[7thson]

it's not only YOUR opinion, Dan. ;)

Posted by: lawbster | Oct 18, 2005 12:59:34 PM

DITTO

[keylargogirl]

UMMM, maybe we should consider that the very competant Arubian authories did receive the tapes. After all, it wouldn't be the first time something was covered up on the Happy Island. After all, isn't wasn't that long ago we heard on television that a body had been found, and then poof, no body, and no reasonable explanation for such a huge and strange fowl up. So in my opinion, you better consider all angles if this tape is missing, and I would look at the already proven liars first.

Just my opinion.......

[Jan]

A WEEK - wasn't this tape done in July - I would say it has been more like 3 months - if the tape was the big deal bombshell - should it not been turned over at once - it is now mid October - I think this is absolutely disgraceful. Odd thing to do - consider this - big evidence here in the states - proof/solution to a bigtime case - and the evidence is turned over to Dr. Phil - would that ever happen. Look at the Taylor Biehl case - ok they got the goods on Fawley and they turn it over to Dr. Phil - does that not seem totally unbelievable??

[Justice for Natalee]

I am not commenting on the legitimacy of the tape.
(I don't know).

However, why isn't a tape that important being personally delivered?

If I had something important to deliver--I would carry it myself, get on a plane, and hand deliver it. Why get another party (fed ex) involved? If the tape is that important, the plane fare to Aruba is worth it.

[Stefani]

It is my personal opinion that the "Skeeter's tapes" are in fact in the proper hands in Aruba. I would assume that Dompig has them and yet does NOT KNOW the BEST avenue to take these for the most effective resolution of the case.

Probably Dompig is attempting to work out a "deal" concerning Joran to satisfy Beth and the American public. There has to be a scapegoat and a sacrficial lamb in this matter. Beth and many in the US will NOT settle for anything less !

BEST solution: DON'T travel out of the US, unless you are prepared emotionally to handle anything out of the ordinary that could happen and be prepared to accept the unfair consequences of the situation/event ! NOT ALL countries handle LE involvement/investigations like our own USA does ! This case proves to me that there can in fact be consequences for the traveler, and they may NEVER be resolved to the traveler's satisfaction !

[Real PackerFan]

UMMM, maybe we should consider that the very competant Arubian authories did receive the tapes. After all, it wouldn't be the first time something was covered up on the Happy Island. After all, isn't wasn't that long ago we heard on television that a body had been found, and then poof, no body, and no reasonable explanation for such a huge and strange fowl up. So in my opinion, you better consider all angles if this tape is missing, and I would look at the already proven liars first.

Just my opinion.......

Posted by: keylargogirl | Oct 18, 2005 1:16:56 PM

I agree. And I also heard tapes are w/FBI, NOT Skeeters and yet all the talk is about Skeeters. I am reserving judgment on the tapes until everything comes out but despite all the wondering why not provided back in July, etc., seems to me to make no sense at all if you did something fradulent to then turn evidence of that fraud over to our FBI???? That is one reason I think/ or at least hope with all my heart there is a chance they are entirely legit with no editing in the originals.

How have you been KeyLargoGirl? Did you have to evacuate when they evacuated the Keys? I haven't seen you in awhile and can't remember which of the Keys you told me was the better one to vacation on if not wanting big party/kid atmosphere. Can you tell me which one it was again?

[Letshelp]

Looks like Dan may be a day late and a dollar short yet again.

Didn't Dompig say on Rita Cosby that the tapes were in the hands of the FBI, which is the same thing Skeeter said???????

So, um, if the FBI had the tapes then Dan's crack about Fedex is kind of silly and off the mark, no?

[truthbetold]

oh for goodness sake already!!! just use common sense! if there was anything so "explosive" on these tapes, if it had any value as far as knowing what happened to Natalee or proving Deepak lied then the tapes would have went staright to the police NOT the Dr Phil show and Beth would not be sitting there on the show with her best acting going on trying to seem upset by tapes she already knew existed......Deepak would not sit down with a stranger and say "yeah sure why not, I will say we all had sex with her even though there is a investigation still going on...I will incriminate myself to a talk show that beth Twitty is going to be on knowing full well she thinks we killed her daughter.....I'll call Natalee a slut" GIVE ME A BREAK.......THE TAPES ARE A BUNCH OF GARBAGE JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN THIS FIASCO BETH HAS BEEN PUTTING ON.....NEED YOU BE REMINDED OF HER CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH ALL PEOPLE QUESTIONABLE???

[Real PackerFan]

I am not commenting on the legitimacy of the tape.
(I don't know).

However, why isn't a tape that important being personally delivered?

If I had something important to deliver--I would carry it myself, get on a plane, and hand deliver it. Why get another party (fed ex) involved? If the tape is that important, the plane fare to Aruba is worth it.

Posted by: Justice for Natalee | Oct 18, 2005 1:17:49 PM

I agree. I think we still may see that and see it documented every step as well to prove chain of evidence and protect the originals. Dans remark from above: "Aruban authorities have yet to gain possession of anything which can be termed original" w/original in italics. In other words, they have copies most likely and I sure the heck wouldn't give them originals w/o sending a guardian w/the originals that never leaves them alone w/anyone.

[Real PackerFan]

Looks like Dan may be a day late and a dollar short yet again.

Didn't Dompig say on Rita Cosby that the tapes were in the hands of the FBI, which is the same thing Skeeter said???????

So, um, if the FBI had the tapes then Dan's crack about Fedex is kind of silly and off the mark, no?

Posted by: Letshelp | Oct 18, 2005 1:26:40 PM

Yes, and he refers to the Dr. Phil show as a week ago and it was several weeks ago, probably about a month, anyone remember date? When I first read his remarks above, if it had not had today's date on it, I would have thought it was a reprint of a post weeks old or something. And yes, the FBI has the tapes and is responsible for getting them to Aruba, not Skeeters, heard it more than once.

[Letshelp]

Even Deepak's lawyer ADMITS it is Deepak on the tape but he says his comments were taken "out of context" though how calling Natalee a slut can get taken out of context is a little beyond my understanding.

I am sure the Aruban judges will never allow the tape into evidence, so I would say Skeeter did the right thing, he made it public so it can't be kept secret as part of the 'investigation' and he gave it to the FBI first so it can't be alleged that it was tampered with, unless Aruba is going to say the FBI is incompetant or tampered with it themselves.

[c]

I agree. I think we still may see that and see it documented every step as well to prove chain of evidence and protect the originals. Dans remark from above: "Aruban authorities have yet to gain possession of anything which can be termed original" w/original in italics. In other words, they have copies most likely and I sure the heck wouldn't give them originals w/o sending a guardian w/the originals that never leaves them alone w/anyone.

Posted by: Real PackerFan | Oct 18, 2005 1:28:42 PM

Then do it, why is it taking 3 months to do that. IF FBI has it don't u think they would by now have told us that the tape is originial and has not been edited ?

And by the way where are the videos ?, how come they donot play the videos as Skeeter has been mentioning.....

[Letshelp]

The FBI has said NOTHING at all about this case, so why would you expect them to get involved at this point???

[keylargogirl]

Real Packer Fan,

I have been doing ok, thanks for asking. I have been visiting up in PA for about two months now with family. I wasn't there during evacuation, but my family did evacuate. Thankfully, everything turned out ok, no real damage done.

In my opinion, Key Largo is gorgous and pretty laid back. So are Key Biscayne and Siesta Key. No matter which Key you visit, I am sure you will not be disappointed. However, Key West is definitely a party place, so if you are not into that, I would stay on another Key and then go over to Key West for a night. It is still a cool place to see. Alot of historic houses and stuff.

I am so disappointed in the movement of this case. I hope this tape proves to be authentic. Natalee and her family deserve justice!

[Real PackerFan]

Then do it, why is it taking 3 months to do that. IF FBI has it don't u think they would by now have told us that the tape is originial and has not been edited ?

And by the way where are the videos ?, how come they donot play the videos as Skeeter has been mentioning.....

Posted by: c | Oct 18, 2005 1:35:54 PM

I don't know why the FBI has not told us it is not original. Maybe they are trying to act like the Aruban LE, share nothing. However, I can't remember the last time the FBI got on the TV in any type of case and told us anything or informed the world about the facts of a case can you? So what the heck are you talking about?

[c]

Even Deepak's lawyer ADMITS it is Deepak on the tape but he says his comments were taken "out of context" though how calling Natalee a slut can get taken out of context is a little beyond my understanding.

Posted by: Letshelp | Oct 18, 2005 1:34:57 PM

This is from the the NH blog (I think 232).
Scubajap's response to the slut comment:

Deepak said she "dressed like a slut-and she acted like a slut" ON THE TAPE-what you didn't here was "Frankly, many people here thought she dressed like a slut and acted like a slut" a little different, don't you think.
and BTW-he pretty much just lifted that out of an editorial from Steve Yuhas of California, which was printed in the papers here.
You can read it your self online. So go demonize him, Steve Yuhas said it first.

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 17, 2005 2:46:55 AM

[dave]

BTW-he pretty much just lifted that out of an editorial from Steve Yuhas of California, which was printed in the papers here.
You can read it your self online. So go demonize him, Steve Yuhas said it first.
--------------------------------------------------

I don't buy that, seeing that he was saying people here (Aruba) thought she dressed like a slut. Unless, of course, Yuhas has been granted Aruban citizenship, which would surprise me in the least.

[Real PackerFan]

Thanks KeyLargoGirl. What would temps and weather generally be like there in January? Glad to hear you are all right, seems like Keys were evacuated right after the last time I talked to you.

I too hope tapes are legit. I am not saying they are and not saying they are not. Even if they were, however, what bothers me is there (from what we have heard) is no admission of any crime to use. At best it is just proof of more lies I think and change of former statements, did not have sex, now all had sex. Once again, I stress, IF they are legit and not edited. Anyhow, we have seen before that lies are not prosecutable. At best, I fear they would just be an investigative tool and maybe a reason to bring them back in because of changes in stories.

I do have some faith they are legit because after the Dan Rather scandal, I just cannot see anyone with a huge viewing audience, nor any network, taking such a chance again, people don't forget such things easily and many viewers are lost. I also have hope because they were shared with the FBI and if it was just a sham, who in their right mind would do that?

[c]

The FBI has said NOTHING at all about this case, so why would you expect them to get involved at this point???

Posted by: Letshelp | Oct 18, 2005 1:38:37 PM

Since that tape has been sent to FBI, I am sure that are validating if the tape is authentic and yes they are not involved in this case.

Even Dompig mentioned that he would work with FBI and Holland to figure out if the tape's are authentic since they donot have enough resources in Aruba to verify its authenticity.

[Sweetie]

Isn't that the same thing? Well, she acted like a slut, she dressed like a slut, What's not to get? Who is many people? I hate that when someone says EVERYONE said so, or EVERYONE did this, who the hell is everyone??????

[Letshelp]

I would think it would go without saying that ANYONE WHO CALLED NATALEE A SLUT is a disgusting, worthless excuse for a human being and that includes Steve Yuhas, who is, in fact, a disgusting and worthless excuse for a human being.

We all know what Natalee was wearing the last night and no one but a religious FANATIC would consider that outfit to be the least bit slutty.

The lengths some people will go to justify unjustifiable behavior is scary.

[c]

Posted by: dave | Oct 18, 2005 1:48:51 PM

Do u buy the fact that it was printed in the Aruba's paper regarding this comment ?

[berry]

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference What's With The Skeeter's Tapes?:

Comments
it's not only YOUR opinion, Dan. ;)

+++++++++++++++++++

So?

[c]

Posted by: Letshelp | Oct 18, 2005 1:50:46 PM

That is not my point. I think while Deeapak was having the conversation with Mr. Skeeter, he mentioned that look this is what is written in the Aruba paper, and went on to make these comments, which were taken out of context and put in his edited tape, that is why it becomes very important to verify that the tapes were authentic or not.

[Real PackerFan]

BTW-he pretty much just lifted that out of an editorial from Steve Yuhas of California, which was printed in the papers here.
You can read it your self online. So go demonize him, Steve Yuhas said it first.
--------------------------------------------------

I don't buy that, seeing that he was saying people here (Aruba) thought she dressed like a slut. Unless, of course, Yuhas has been granted Aruban citizenship, which would surprise me in the least.

Posted by: dave | Oct 18, 2005 1:48:51 PM

Exactly. I remember the Yuhas article. It was disgusting and one of the nastiest things I read since this case began. But he is not from Aruba as in "here". This is why I await the full tape's release, etc. because Deepak has made these kinds of statements about what he "really" said and it being taken out of context, let's see if he actually has told the truth for once or has dug himself in deeper making these statements about what he really said in the interview. And no matter what context it was said in, the insulting, condemning tone of his voice when he spoke of Natalee in the slut remarks spoke volumes about what he thought of her.

[jgirl]

Remember, the FBI are not Gods, as everyone seems to believe.

[dugo]

This is going to arrive wednesday. Have a look at this, a Dr Phil company:

http://www.courtroomsciences.com/Multimedia.aspx

Then tell me if you can trust the tape to be a true representation of Deepaks utterings.

[redpetals12]

Nothing in this case has moved w/ speed or ease to say the least. I'm sure the FBI examined the tapes before we sent to the ALE. I heard Wednesday too. Assuming the ALE handles this in the same manner as all other previous evidence (or lack of) The tape will now go to Holland and I expect it to be at least a month or more before any of us know the final decision as to whether or not the tape is 'authentic'. From July until Dr. Phil?, I cannot answer that except perhaps ALE knew of the tapes, wouldn't accept them and the national US media attention forced the issue after all avenues in Aruba were exhausted. (?) I would hate to think Skeeters, Dr. Phil or anyone else would knowing falsify the tapes or what they represent. What would they stand to gain? I see no motive for that,but agree it should be a crime to do so. Let's not forget for us this is a story to follow and a mystery to solve, to Natalee's family and friends this is raw emotion..real trauma. Regardless of skeeters history, why would he hurt the family? for his own personal gain? gain of what?

[c]

This is why I await the full tape's release, etc. because Deepak has made these kinds of statements about what he "really" said and it being taken out of context, let's see if he actually has told the truth for once or has dug himself in deeper making these statements about what he really said in the interview.
Posted by: Real PackerFan | Oct 18, 2005 1:54:37 PM

i will agree with you there.

[Letshelp]

And no matter what context it was said in, the insulting, condemning tone of his voice when he spoke of Natalee in the slut remarks spoke volumes about what he thought of her.
______________________-

EXACTLY.

People are being naive if they think Deepak was not talking of his own views of Natalee.

There is NO reason for the tone or content of his comments if he is innocent and has nothing to hide.

Why badmouth a dead girl who never accused you of anything?

Guily conscience is my vote.

[dave]

This is why I await the full tape's release, etc. because Deepak has made these kinds of statements about what he "really" said and it being taken out of context, let's see if he actually has told the truth for once or has dug himself in deeper making these statements about what he really said in the interview. And no matter what context it was said in, the insulting, condemning tone of his voice when he spoke of Natalee in the slut remarks spoke volumes about what he thought of her.

Posted by: Real PackerFan | Oct 18, 2005 1:54:37 PM

That is another interesting thing about the tapes, the tone of his voice. The way he sounds when he says "Dressed like a slute" sounds very angry and almost spiteful, not the way you would expect if he was just making a matter of fact statement about what people on the island thought of Natalee's clothing.

[ustt]

Unconfirmed reports seem to indicate that for all the talk, Aruban authorities have yet to gain possession of anything which can be termed original, and consequently untampered with.

_____________

oh, i bet it was MISINFORMATION/problem in translation again. ha ha ha

probably an invitation was sent for Karin to fly with brilliant Dane scientists from the mother country to go to FBI headquarters in the United States to "see" the original. (remember, they do like to fly - remember the video we saw of the woman flying EVIDENCE to Holland???)

Dear Karin,
Please come to Boston.....
No, make that Quantico
signed,
Stan the FBI Man

Karin is probably in Boston........trying to find enough gas to get to Qunatico.

[i wouldn't let go of the original either - :)

[Bigfish]

Who said the FBI has the tape? The FBI?

Who said the tape would be in the hands og ALE on Wednesday? Was it the FBI?

Why would the FBI become involved in this Charade? Did someone ask for their involvement regarding the authenticity of the tape?

The tape/tapes still have to be forensicly examined by experts in the Netherlands before they can be considered for evidence.

The tapes were not properly obtained and will never be allowed in a court as evidence.

Even if they were allowed, there is nothing incriminating on them.

Joran was a juvenile at the time Natalee went missing and Natalee is an adult.

Corpus Delecti, No evidence of any crime.

Bigfish

[c]

The tape will now go to Holland and I expect it to be at least a month or more before any of us know the final decision as to whether or not the tape is 'authentic'.
Posted by: redpetals12 | Oct 18, 2005 1:56:55 PM
AGREED

Dr. Phil or anyone else would knowing falsify the tapes or what they represent. What would they stand to gain?
Posted by: redpetals12 | Oct 18, 2005 1:56:55 PM
Ratings for Dr. Phil show. He knows that Beth has been bringing ratings to Fox news, and he is also interested in it.

[Real PackerFan]

Posted by: dave | Oct 18, 2005 1:48:51 PM

Do u buy the fact that it was printed in the Aruba's paper regarding this comment ?

Posted by: c | Oct 18, 2005 1:51:12 PM

I buy it because it was one of the few in the early days in the US that vilified Natalee, it was nasty. It blamed the victim so of course it was reprinted down there and that is why I also can actually believe Deepak quoted it because it was one that would fit in with his view of her (and women probably).

[Letshelp]

What does Joran being a juvenile have to do with anything?

Rape is rape and murder is murder whether the perp is an adult or an adolescent....and since the age of consent in Aruba is SIXTEEN please don't get started on the vile idea of Natalee being legally at fault for any sex that might have occured, its sickening.

Just because the tapes will never be allowed in a court as evidence does not make them fakes....I'm sure Skeeter and maybe Deepak knew from the beginning the tapes would never make it into court, that is why they made the public...

To get the TRUTH out, since the Aruban judicial system seems not to care about truth at all.

[keylargogirl]

Real Packer Fan,

It is usually about mid to high 70's in Jan. Sometimes it is warmer though. I can't complain though because my family here in PA has the coldest winters. Ours are hot and steamy in comparison!! When are planning to go?

I find it funny that alot of people are now turning against Beth. I mean, her daughter is missing and probably dead. There is no rule book as to how to behave, and she is doing the best she can . I feel so bad for her. I hope and pray they get some answers soon.

[Real PackerFan]

No evidence of any crime.

_____

Bigfish, I agree. I wish there was myself but at BEST, of what we heard, it would just be evidence of more lies--none had sex to all had sex w/her. While I will never believe she would w/all 3 willingly, he saying all had sex still never admitted to rape/unwilling sex and she is not here to say otherwise.

I am reserving judgment but if I had to guess, I think we are all partially right. I believe we may find the slut remarks had a lead up to them which would change their context some but the dripping condemnation in his voice when he said them is there without doubt. I think the full tapes will be found to be unedited but that Dr. Phil's show used clips of it. The naysayers will say they were right 'cuz no crime admitted on them and Dr. Phil used clips. Those of us who hope it is uncut will be right because the originals I believe probably are (if I had to guess). All will argue they were right as ALWAYS on this blog. I think at best they will be a new investigative tool and a reason to requestion Deepak, etc. because of statements opposite of what he said to police previously but no admission of guilt on them.

Heard something on TV the other day that Skeeters told Dave about content of entire tape so there is more we have not heard. Rumor is he said he believed Joran raped and killed her but before anyone jumps on me, I did say this is a rumor.

[dugo]

Dr. Phil or anyone else would knowing falsify the tapes or what they represent. What would they stand to gain?
Posted by: redpetals12 | Oct 18, 2005 1:56:55 PM

Dr Phil does that for a living! Did you check http://www.courtroomsciences.com/Multimedia.aspx ?

Impeachment Video .. Linear and Nonlinear Video Editing .. Video and Audio Enhancement .. Photography and Photo Retouching etcetera etcetera...

[Real PackerFan]

Real Packer Fan,

It is usually about mid to high 70's in Jan. Sometimes it is warmer though. I can't complain though because my family here in PA has the coldest winters. Ours are hot and steamy in comparison!! When are planning to go?

I find it funny that alot of people are now turning against Beth. I mean, her daughter is missing and probably dead. There is no rule book as to how to behave, and she is doing the best she can . I feel so bad for her. I hope and pray they get some answers soon.

Posted by: keylargogirl | Oct 18, 2005 2:05:27 PM

I'm in WI and our winters are COLD too so I envy you!! Don't know when going, thinking something like about January 8th for at least a wk., maybe 10 days. Trying to decide where to go, leaning your way but loved Ixtapa, Mexico last year and would like to go back there too, also thinking Hawaii but think will probably rule that out.

This blog is almost all Beth haters now, don't know how much you have been around, but it has turned about entirely around. The other morning I was on and it was as mellow as I had seen it in a long time, despite opposing views, all were decent and discussing nicely w/out attacks, but that is rare anymore. It is the same over the tapes, most doubt, some reserving judgment, some believe or hope they will hold something. Very difficult to find middle or common ground w/some, most are all one way or all the other.

Glad to see you back.

[berry]

I have no doubt hearing and seeing the real tape will provide lots of "are you kidding me" moments for Aruban authorities. When something seems too good to be true - it usually is.

So far as Deepak's annoying "slut remark - it's his opinion based on no small degree of anger at his predicament. It proves nothing, except he is callous.

[redpetals12]

Joran was a juvenile at the time Natalee went missing and Natalee is an adult.

Corpus Delecti, No evidence of any crime.

Bigfish

Posted by: Bigfish | Oct 18, 2005 2:01:08 PM

now you sound like Paulus himself! I guess you guys are hanging on to that 'no corpse, no case' with all you've got. Someone knew they put her away in a very good spot...for as long as there is no body, no one will ever determine if anything these boys say is true or not, tapes won't matter, evidence and story changes won't matter b/c you can't prove a crime. Sad to say this, but that one phrase condemns them more than anything. PVDS knew the Aruban judicial system far better than any of the rest of us, and they'll get away with this b/c of that.
Makes me sick actually.