Natalee Holloway: The Cover Up Begins In Mountain Brook

While I planned to say more on Joran's statements in this post, I thought it would be better to establish a baseline for when they were introduced. Part one of this series, Cable News: A Season Of Fraud, can be found here, if you missed it. This is part two - the next piece will follow in approximately a week and deal with Joran's alleged statements and the attempts to set him up, whether he is guilty or not. I am drawing no conclusion in that regard, only relying on current evidence, as opposed to unsubstantiated alleged facts and the mostly rumors being reported as news.

I've no information even remotely suggesting the reason we haven't been told the truth from the Mountain Brook side involves anything sinister. Nevertheless, what we have heard out of Mountain Brook amounts to a publicity campaign - and a consciously managed one at that.

As I'll take some heat for this post, I'll start by bringing in a colleague from the MSM - Mr. Bill O'Reilly himself - from Fox (Joran is evil - boycott Aruba) News. Fox was singing a different tune on June 16th, one they conveniently forgot.

ED KISSEL, FRIEND OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think I saw her a little later that night. I had stayed in Carlos 'n Charlie's pretty long, and I saw her dancing with Van Der Sloot later that night.

O'REILLY: Now, did you know Van Der Sloot? Did -- how did you know who he was?

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.

O'REILLY: All right. So Natalee obviously knew him, then, was familiar with him. And when you saw him dancing with her, that didn't set off any bells. Was Natalee intoxicated, in your opinion?

KISSEL: I wouldn't say so. We were all having a good time. I'd go so far as to say that, but I wouldn't say intoxicated.

O'REILLY: She was drinking?

KISSEL: Drinking responsibly is what I would say.

O'REILLY: All right.

KISSEL: Along with the rest of us.

O'REILLY: Now, did you see her get into a car with Van Der Sloot and these two other guys?

KISSEL: I did not see her getting in the car. I saw her leaving, looked like with Van Der Sloot. I didn't see her getting in the car. You couldn't really see the road from inside the bar, so that is what I saw.

O'REILLY: But nothing set off any alarm bells for you, Ed? You didn't -- you weren't concerned or anything like that?

KISSEL: No. I wasn't personally concerned about anything. From what I've heard, I heard people talk about him and he sounded like a nice guy. So I didn't think any big deal.

Factor noted that most students and chaperones have been silent, and commended Kissel and Jordan for their willingness to speak on the record. "I appreciate both of you coming in and talking about what is a very painful experience."

For the record, I have never spoken to either of the students in the Bill O'reilly interview from the 16th, but I have confirmed my reporting through multiple sources from Mountain Brook who prefer to not be identified for this report. Also, drinking responsibly like the rest of us apparently includes at least one unidentified Mountain Brook student falling off the stage and cutting open his head.

Not long after a few individuals from Mountain Brook began talking candidly and openly about the trip, it was decided by someone that a candid picture was not what should be conveyed. Additionally, while I have not been able to independently confirm this one detail, it has been suggested by a credible source that we heard the word kidnapping in the beginning as it was determined to be the best way to get the FBI involved immediately due to a lack of confidence in the Aruban authorities to properly investigate the case.

For those intent on bashing the Aruban LE - who did clearly drop the ball in the case early on in a significant way - I've been told that through changes in agent assignments and kids travel plans immediately after the trip, it was likely more than a month after Natalee's disappearance that the FBI completed the last debriefing of students on the trip. I have no knowledge of how candid any of the attendees were with authorities.

Regardless of whether that particular item regarding a kidnapping is true or not, though in hindsight it certainly makes sense, the clear and organized effort undertaken to craft this story lends support to the notion that things were being calculated from very early on. Consequently, I am repeating that qualified statement from one credible source.

I admit to having lost patience with the tactic of continuing to accuse, demean and slander other chiefly young individuals when absolutely no proof has been put forward that they are guilty of any crime. Especially while willfully hiding the complete truth from an America which was reached out to so actively for financial and emotional support.

Recently I heard Beth Twitty make a televised accusation as to Paulus having an illegitimate child. Internet readers know that rumor has circulated for months and has never been documented by any evidence at all. I've been told the individual in question lost his real Father, who is said to have owned a local car dealership, some time ago. To the best of my knowledge he has no connection to Paulus Van der Sloot whatsoever.

As far as anyone I've spoken with can tell, there is no real evidence to suggest anything other than perhaps two young, behaviorally dumb, because they were both drunk, teenagers went to a beach one night of their own accord and after one left, the other disappeared.

Even the terrible pain, perhaps of a Mother in denial, is no excuse for a great injustice, especially when willing to obfuscate and conceal pertinent details around the incident, or perhaps not take the time to ascertain them. Hanging a noose around someones neck for life when you can't substantiate they've committed a crime is simply one more injustice added to the terrible tragedy of Natalee's disappearance. And it will not bring her back. As far as I can tell, there has been no credible evidence produced by anybody at this point.

In defense of Beth Twitty, I also believe there was an effort to smear and direct blame at the boys by parties other than those from Mountain Brook. I will address that in a later post. In short, it is quite possible that she has been reacting based upon the information she has been told, which the media never bothered to debunk, as I believe they should have.

If someone has real evidence that the three boys are guilty and will produce it - I'd be one of the first to call for their heads on a stick. But people should not have to endure accusations without evidence, or in the face of the public getting an unfairly imbalanced and fully managed story.

At least one credible media organization backed off of this story as it became clear that they were not going to be able to practice prudent journalism among trip attendees from Mountain Brook as a result of the access, limitations and rules for questions imposed. Logically, assuming they encountered the same obstacles, that didn't seem to bother cable news.

A word on Mountain Brook. While I've no doubt it is comprised of many good people it is an upper-middle, to upper class area where image is everything. It became clear to different residents I spoke with that saying or doing anything as regards the trip or the story which was not approved could lead to, in essence, being somehow negatively labeled within the community. Mountain Brook, Alabama was not going to do its wash in public, or tolerate anyone who might.

I personally have no qualms with that issue, but in the face of the the continuing unsupported accusations and allegations ever inflated by cable news, it's time someone came forward to tell what they know to at least lend balance to this story.

In a report from one earlier but recent graduate of Mountain Brook High School, the class of 2005 had something of a reputation for hard partying above and beyond what was considered the norm.

I've never heard anyone directly categorize Natalee Holloway as anything but a decent, average young girl of eighteen - but based on eyewitness accounts of that evening, as well as other evenings at Carlos and Charlies when she was present, dancing and drinking, the recent quotes from Joran Van Der Sloot as to Natalee's approach and demeanor that night are not at all inconsistent with accounts from some students from Mountain Brook on the trip and at C and C. Actually, I've been told that another young woman other than Natalee was said to be fond of the boy, but apparently Natalee somehow wound up with him that evening.

Based upon talking to individuals on the trip and also highly credible adults who spoke directly with other students on the trip, I have no reason to conclude anything other than that Natalee was with Joran and left with him that evening of her own free will and that any behaviors which may have been the result of intoxication were most likely the result of her own less than responsible drinking.

According to one student - they went to Carlos and Charlies that last night to really blow it out and most in attendance, especially late that night, did. Also, many in the group regularly attended Carlos and Charlies and Natalee was there at least the previous night behaving just as she did that last night. It's reported that there was actually a scuffle the previous night because she was approached by another boy from the island originally mistaken for and reported as Joran Van der Sloot, while dancing provocatively, who it seems was not even there. Allegedly the boy groped her on the dance floor. That led to the early rumors of Joran having had a fight with a kid from Mountain Brook, which is now said to have not been the case at all.

Multiple reports from students on the trip described Joran as a nice, quiet, non-aggressive and seemingly decent guy they had seen around on more than one occasion.

The environment and goings on at C&C were in no way unwelcome, new, or alien to many students by that point in the trip. Also, contrary to reports that sex was a minor part of the trip, some attendees expressed a very different opinion, having observed some notable amount of bed hopping among attendees. This was a large group, however, and that shouldn’t be interpreted to mean that all in attendance on the trip were so engaged. And no one has told me personally that Natalee was so inclined, either.

I am not suggesting students who did come forward on TV, most notably seemingly the same three girls, time and again, were lying. I have no indication they were lying at all. Whatever information campaign went on was controlled by adults and Fox ET AL were only going to be given access to certain individuals who were going to tell a particular story as a result of what they knew, or didn't know.

Any reputable news organization would have walked away at that point - but not cable news. My reasons for setting the record as straight as I can now is motivated only by my desire to understand the truth of what happened to Natalee, which is what I set out to do in the first place.

The reason I think the Mountain Brook side of this story needs to be told truthfully is for the perspective it lends, not because I am suggesting Natalee Holloway was at fault for whatever may have happened to her, or because she was anything less than a completely decent girl. But it is simply unfair for so many to judge Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers without knowing the full story as best as it can be ascertained under the circumstances.

Additionally, more than one conversation I had with television sources seemed to make it perfectly clear - Beth Twitty was the ratings driver and the last thing they seemed to want to do was jeopardize a ticket to good ratings by asking hard questions, presenting a more balanced story, or trying to get at the truth in any other version than what was being packaged and presented by one side for fear of alienating Beth Twitty.

“She’s driving this story,” it was stated. “It’s amazing, but she is.” To my knowledge, that is not something she ever directly conveyed, but among certain network personnel it was clearly assumed.

I'm aware of at least two specific cases where certain individuals in television and print media wanted to air or write stories with witnesses and or photographs which were significantly less flattering than I will be as regards Natalee's behavior in Carlos and Charlies that evening. Personally, I had no role in crafting either story, only good knowledge of them through direct sources. Neither story ever ran, not because they weren't solid, but because no one wanted to risk rocking the ratings boat.

If the cable networks wish to pass the sort of coverage they're doing off as entertainment, that's certainly their right. But by characterizing any of the reporting they've been doing on this tragic case as news is both demeaning to the word as commonly used, and a slap in the face to any credible journalist writing in any medium.

The Mountain Brook side of this story was not reported by any news organization. It was crafted, managed and delivered by a family member and an associate of the family with a background in public relations. And media was not going to be given access to anyone who did not adhere to a pre-determined script or template as regards the Mountain Brook side of the trip and Natalee’s time in Aruba.

And so far as I can ascertain the cable news networks made no serious effort to get beyond that wall. It appears they were content to sacrifice journalistic ethics for the sake of high ratings at nearly every step of the way.

This series of posts is not about the long-suffering Mother of a missing girl – it is about the media, it’s handling of the story and, ultimately, while their failure to adhere to reasonable journalistic standards may have helped to set the stage for innocent boys being accused by many, while some real perpetrator slipped away.

However, even that doesn’t excuse any carelessness or potential corruption on the part of Arubans or Aruban authorities, which I have yet to address - and will.

This post is also available at Blogger News Network.

Comments

[meme]

I think my long post above was misunderstood by some. I think that if ANYONE knows what may have happened to Natalee that they should spill their guts! If they are worried about their image, or their communities image and that's why they are not talking, then shame on them. Is a human life not worth more than being labeled or rejected by your community? Come on, Natalee's life was lost and her family and friend's lives destroyed. After all, weren't these Mountain Brook people supposedly her best friends? And they are worried about their image more than her life???? SAD!

[cathy]

LET'S BLAME NATALEE HOLLOWAY FOR HER DISAPPEARANCE!

Posted by: Richard | Oct 8, 2005 8:51:14 PM

i have been all over the internet reading and i have not seen one single poster blame the victim...

and...because someone wants to continute the investigation and exonerate the people on the trip doesn't mean that they are blaming them or accusing them of anything...the more thorough a look at this that dan and his loyal posters do...the better to narrowly define the direction to be pursued...so then we can bring her home alive...

[DayoGould]

Bravo, Dan.

Beth, on her video-venue voyages of vengeance ( which have reaped over $25-million in donations) will not be pleased at all with your expose of the mistruths and misinformation campaign that was skilfully used to deflect much-needed attention away from the actual vanishing and into the seemingly more-important and constant importuning pleas for cash, cash, cash.

The price of Matt's new Toyota Tundea might be very high indeed. Should there be any justice, someone will have to pay for the slanders and libels directed at not just the Kalpoe and Van Der Sloot suspects, but at their family members, too.

[Dan]

"audio taped polygraph test!"

As I said, have they no shame.

[wishwillie]

Dan's post is good background to establish a more balanced view of the context of what happened. Apparently the Mountain Brook community does not want to reveal the less than decorous behavior of its children. Nevertheless, why are the Mountain Brook info management or Natalee's possibly enticing behavior the night of her disappearance relevant?

Joran left Carlos and Charlie's with Natalee and with the Kalpoe brothers in Deepak's car; this seems uncontested. Natalee subsequently disappeared.

Joran (and his mother Anita) admit that Joran had sex with Natalee. Joran had a bruise on his cheek the next day.

Skeeters got someone on tape, purportedly Deepak, saying that all three had sex with Natalee. Presumably Deepak's voice could be authenticated using recognition technology. "Deepak" didn't challenge Skeeters mention of the gardener identifying them in the car at 3 am and verified that it was his brother who had not been identified.

Doesn't all this add up to suspicion of the three young men as involved in at least rape?

[festicles]

Excellent work Dan. It's a shame the MSM does not have the courage or integrity to pursue all facets of this story.

What's interesting is the conspicuous silence of some of the folks who frequent the regular Natalee thread and lead the lynch mobs in crying for Joran/Kalpoe heads on a platter. These folks have no interest in debating all the potential scenarios and using logic and facts.

I'll look forward to your next post on this topic!

[meme]

Doesn't all this add up to suspicion of the three young men as involved in at least rape?

Posted by: wishwillie | Oct 8, 2005 9:08:11 PM

As much as I agree with them or at least their behavior being very suspicious, you cannot constitue rape based on the fact that someone said they had sex with Natalee. If in fact she was drunk and partying, although out of character for her, it is very possible, how does anyone know that she didn't consent to having sex with Joran? Haven't you ever heard of anyone losing their inhabitions while intoxicated? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that if she was drunk, she may have wanted to have sex with him. No one can prove that anyone raped her or did any bodily harm to her. That's the sad and sickening part of all of this.

[frank]

Government to take action against Beth

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/

The translation may misrepresent them as sarcastic.

[angela]

Joran (and his mother Anita) admit that Joran had sex with Natalee. Joran had a bruise on his cheek the next day.
Posted by: wishwillie | Oct 8, 2005 9:08:11 PM

Was that proven? If this were true, Beth would say it during every interview she gives. Haven't heard anything about this except on the internet.

[angela]

Im questioning the bruise part, not the sex part. Sorry.

[wishwillie]

I maintain that there is SUSPICION of rape when three men admit to having had sex with an American highschooler (pending verification of Deepak's voice on tape) and the woman disappears and one of the men had a bruise on his face the next day.

We are obviously not going to have proof in this case.

My point is that I feel that we are moving too far in the other direction - that of dismissing any suspicions of illegal behavior on the part of Joran and the Kalpoes.

[angela]

He didnt have a bruise on his face the next day.

[danie]

Once again a very thought provoking post...and one i'm sure you will receive many different interpretations of. Once again, due to Aruban law, and their inability to release any information because of their laws(fact, not a criticism)...everyone in the media (and on websites)is forced to rely on "credible unamed sources" or "multiple sources"...still no evidence or facts.
Absolutely agree "Unfair to judge Joran and Kalpoe brothers (and Natalee or Mt. Brook kids) without knowing the full story as best as it can be ascertained under the circumstances". Also agree the media (cable specifically) portrayed the story in their "favorable ratings" bias...as i stated in a previous post, IMHO, all media - network,cable,newspapers, etc.are all very biased to the point of being editorials (just my opinion...jaded opinion, perhaps).
Main point...the silence of Mt.Brook teens and other credible sources in relation to events of that evening, how relevant is it to Natalee's disappearance? Or I should say as relevant as three "innocent"(your words and Aruban law)boys, not only fabricating a story pertaining to events of that evening, but further implicating 2 innocent individuals(guards), which resulted in impeding the investigation, and more importantly maybe, just maybe finding Natalee?
Call me naive, but Paulus VS, whether a judge in training or not, to some degree is an "officer of the court". If his son (stupidly, uncaringly, carelously, whatever) left a girl on the beach, who turned out to be missing....why impede an investigation and perhaps contribute to this girl's death? If Joran was "afraid" to tell the truth (he's 18, we've all been there)...is it not a parent's responsibility to not only morally, but legally advise your child to tell the truth (and suffer the consequences)under these circumstances rather than be an accessory and impediment to an investigation of a missing girl? And if all Joran did, Dan, was leave a girl on the beach, why the lies? Why involve the Kalpoes, who by Joran's interview, did not even pick him up? Yes, it was wrong to leave her, but at that point, if that was all he was guilty of, why not help the investigation? I just don't understand. Perhaps, my father being an attorney and officer of the court(there goes my credibility!) who while we were growing up, told us...if we got into trouble, regardless of his disappointment in our judgement or lack thereof, just don't lie, tell the truth, and there would be consequences, but he would help you to the best of his ability.
Bottom line, in a very convoluted way (apologies)...i don't think the "Mt.Brook Position" is as harmful to the disappearance of Natalee as is the behavior of the 3 "previous suspects" after the fact....frankly, had Natalee been drunk, thrown Joran over her shoulder and carried him to the beach...I don't see the relevance. But, once again, as in my earlier post regarding the media...i believe the reason for all the speculation, lack of facts, wild theories and accusations are the result of Aruban law (NOT a criticism, just fact); no material evidence is released until the case is closed. That is the real bottom line...IMVHO....danie

[frank]

Dompig does an interview, has new leads. Say's now that the 3 are free, the suspects remain "very interesting to them"

He "assumes" there was some foul play.

When asked if they have one of the men in the 3. He said YES!

[frank]

Again,

Ask Dan how he feels that Dompig, the deputy chief has said they have spoken to the person they believe is guilty of foul play against Natalee.

He used the analogy of having spoke to the guilty party within the first 40 hours.

[DayoGould]

What is more frightening than a bruise that wasn't there, is that which is there: the football-playing Twitty cousin has N-H on the cleats of his football shoes. Symbolic of tramping on her every time he walks? Scary stuff!

[dave]

They just interviewed Dompig on Fox, very interesting.

[frank]

I watched again, and when Dompig was asked directly if they believe they have the guility party in one of the 3 his first response was:

YES

[frank]

He also said they have the remains of a body!!!

[dave]

I don't think he said that Frank. It would be a flashing banner on Fox if it were true. I think you misunderstood him.

[frank]

Posted by: dave | Oct 8, 2005 9:45:33 PM

He absolutely said it. He did not say it was Natalee but he said specifically they had the remains of a body while they were showing the landfill. I have watched it 3 times now.

Again, it doesn't mean it's Natalee. But it's interesting that he brought it up.

[Robert]

Dan,
I give you an A+ on this series. From the start I said that the crown had no case against the three boys and I still stick by that. Time will prove I was right. I find it a fright that the media driven by an irrational mother can come so close to being the cause of people going to jail without real hard proof.
Again, good work Dan and I am proud to be in your line on this issue.

Robert
Friend of Joran

[Mary L.]

Dan,
While I respect your right to have a different point of view, you have not shown me any evidence to change my mind.

You assert that BHT had an agenda. I believe she was fighting for her daughter so Aruba would realize a crime had occurred. It seems that many Arubans believe that Natalee is still on "holiday."

If BHT is out in the media too much and has a biased agenda, what about Dave? He's not out there self promoting. He seems to be an honest trustworthy sort of person who is seeking the truth rather than vengeance. He also seems to believe the "boys" are responsible for Natalee's disappearance.

Deepak says that the three of them had sex with Natalee and you'd be surprised how easy it was. I find it much more likely that Natalee was the victim of a gang rape and manslaughter (voluntary or involuntary) rather than she was a willing participant in a 3 on 1 orgy.

While I have personally observed women give it up for a cute guy while under the influence of too much alcohol, I've never seen one go for three guys at once. It's inconceivable.

[frank]

Posted by: Robert | Oct 8, 2005 9:54:45 PM

Did the media and the mother hold Joran for the maximum? Did the media and the mother bring in the Kalpoe's under suspicion of premeditated murder and rape?

Any explanation on the Deputy Chief of Police's comments tonight?

[bama1991]

Mountain Brook isn't the sweet, innocent town it wants everyone to think it is. I knew lots of MB girls and guys in college and they were all wild. They had money to burn and most of it went up their noses. Their little community is generally stuck up and label concious--they don't drive crappy cars or eat at fast food restaurants. People move there because of the school system, which is one of the best in the state and is still "public." Mountain Brook is a city within Birmingham, so the "city" kids can't be bused there. It is like an "ivy league" prep school but you don't have to pay to go there. House prices are astronomical and so are the property taxes and that is how they can keep out the people not good enough. I love going to Birmingham, and have friends who live in MB, but I hate going there. When you go to a restaurant in MB, the "locals" know you aren't from there and look at you like you are an intruder. It is like shopping at Neiman Marcus in Atlanta, if you aren't dressed to the "nines" you are looked down upon. I guarantee the chaperones, parents, lawyers, etc. told the other kids to keep their mouths shut. Beth Twitty should be pissed that her own community is keeping secrets. I guarantee there are secrets. That little kingdom on a hill has lots of them. Keep digging, Dan and maybe the truth will come out eventually.

[frank]

Posted by: Mary L. | Oct 8, 2005 9:56:16 PM

Joran said he did not have sex with her but left her on the beach.

[frank]

Posted by: bama1991 | Oct 8, 2005 9:58:10 PM

Mountain Brook isn't the sweet, innocent town it wants everyone to think it is.

So what? It has nothing to do with the murder of Natalee Holloway

[Pearl]

I lurk often on internet sites but don't post much because I do not have any factual information to add to the Natalee Holloway disappearance. Whatever happened to Natalee will or will not ultimately be revealed. I hope she is alive somewhere. If she left on her own, she is an adult and free to do so. If she was kidnapped, no one has come forward to identify where she is and claim the reward money. If she is no longer alive, whoever killed her has disposed of her reamins in a way they have not been found in spite of extensive searches. We do not know. We may never know.

Beth Twitty is a distraught and grieving mother. I am a mother also and do not know how I would act if something like this happened to my daughter. However, this should not permit Mrs. Twitty to continue to say some things on television. Mrs. Twitty may not be aware of the way some of us are beginning to perceive her actions. I think her family should step in and help this lady.

I personally believe someone aimed Mrs. Twitty's wrath at the three boys in Aruba. Do I think they are guilty? I don't have any idea. Do I think they have lied? It has been pointed that they have lied. I have no personal knowledge of their lies and neither do most people discussing this tragedy on discussion forums. Unless this case is solved, no one will ever know if the boys lied or not.

What I am trying to say is that we discussion board participants have no knowledge other than what we read, see, or hear on television or the internet. I think it would be a good idea if we reserved our judgement of all participants in this tragedy until it has been determined if in fact a crime occurred and who did the crime.

[Formerlyj]

He used the analogy of having spoke to the guilty party within the first 40 hours.

Posted by: frank | Oct 8, 2005 9:39:46 PM

Well, Well. Well,

Yeah them students were covering something up.
Huh,

[dave]

Dan,
I give you an A+ on this series. From the start I said that the crown had no case against the three boys and I still stick by that. Time will prove I was right. I find it a fright that the media driven by an irrational mother can come so close to being the cause of people going to jail without real hard proof.
Again, good work Dan and I am proud to be in your line on this issue.

Robert
Friend of Joran

Posted by: Robert | Oct 8, 2005 9:54:45 PM

See, here is the problem you guys have as supporters of Joran. You can't just say that Beth or MSM put Joran in jail or that they were the sole cause for the focus being on him. If they had that much power, then Joran would have been convicted long ago.

The real people driving this investigation are the ALE and the prosecutor's office. They are the reason why the suspects stayed in jail so long. Gerold Dompig even went so far as to go on national television tonight and say he thinks they boys are involved in the disappearence.

So it can't just be an irrational mother who is repsonsible for your friends detainment, it would have to be an entire police force.

[dave]

He used the analogy of having spoke to the guilty party within the first 40 hours.

Posted by: frank | Oct 8, 2005 9:39:46 PM

Well, Well. Well,

Yeah them students were covering something up.
Huh,

Posted by: Formerlyj | Oct 8, 2005 10:07:42 PM
If you are talking about the MB students, then I don't think they were ever spoken to by the ALE, certainly not within a 48 hour period.

[Mezcal]

Deepak says that the three of them had sex with Natalee and you'd be surprised how easy it was. I find it much more likely that Natalee was the victim of a gang rape and manslaughter (voluntary or involuntary) rather than she was a willing participant in a 3 on 1 orgy.

Posted by: Mary L. | Oct 8, 2005 9:56:16 PM

Can anybody give me a link, which clearly states that it is proven, or SAID by any of the suspects or their relatives that they had sex with her. Because I keep reading that. And as far as I know is the only person who claims this, is BHT. The only thing I hear Deepak say on the tape is "She did", that could be on any question. And if you would ask such a question, wouldn't you ask: "Did all of you have sex with her", instead of "she had sex with all of you". There are no statements of Joran given to BHT, simply because that is not allowed in Dutch law, and he explicitely said in the interview on A current affair that he or any of the Kalpoe brothers never had sex with her. Please give me a link, or stop pretending that it is a fact that he admitted to have sex with Natalee.

[PerryPeabody]

Dan, Thank you. It's about time someone tells it like it is.
Natalee Holloway is missing and there is no evidence from which to proceed to look for her--after four months of looking and four months of incarcerating and questioning people. One way, in fact, the only way that make sense to me at this point, to track down what might have happened to Natalee would be to go back to see who was interested in her--for whatever reason. The photos on her camera, the photos on the cameras of the other MBHS students of Natalee or of places where she was, taken at the time she was there even if she is not in the photos, will BEGIN to give a cast of characters that can be explored. Why would her mother not want to release the photos on Natalee's camera? Why would the other Mountain Brook students not be willing to contribute copies of their photos so that the people in the photos, the subjects AND the people in the background who may have been tangentially captured on film, can be looked at? They may not know who the "locals" are in the photos but someone else will.
One can make all the wailing noises one wants to in MountainBrook, put up all the memory walls one wants to, light candles, have prayer services, the cable programs can use Beth and Beth can use the cable programs ad infinitum and ad nauseum, but until someone is brave enough to allow people to search from the beginning, things will stay in this circular loop of going nowhere. No one cares what the kids were doing, if they were behaving or misbehaving, if they were drinking "responsibly" or "not responsibly", if they were doing jello-shots. There is a girl missing; why prevent a thorough search *from the beginning.* Some people doth protest (and keep their information hidden) too much.

Posted by: PerryPeabody | Oct 8, 2005 8:59:10 PM

[Allison]

Great post Dan, thanks for allowing Althor to post again. I'll check in frequently to read his well written, thought provoking posts. Thanks again, Allison

[dave]

Perry - I don't believe it has ever been said that the MB people prevented the law enforcement officials from obtaining info, and they are the only relevant people who should be receiving that information.

[jon]

First, I'm curious as to whose fault you think it is that there is no evidence, as is alleged. Aruban LE is, by definiton, not competent in these matters. They have to be as they admittedly rarely handle these types of investigations. I dont want a team of doctors who have collectivley performed a few heart surgeries operating on my heart. I'd likely end up dead. Get the anaolgy.

So, the implication that these guys have been set up by the media because there is no evidence is illogical. The most logical conclusion is: WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHETHER THESE GUYS ARE INNOCENT OR GUILTY BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HAD A PROPER INVESTIGATION PERFORMED.

And, until Dan, or anyone else calling for evidence, can provide EVIDENCE that they didn't say things like "something bad happended" and didn't make up a cover-up story BEFORE they knew she was missing, and didn't change their stories multiple times, etc. etc., using your own logic, why should we believe you either?

Alas, we are basically all going with our gut on this case. And, as a thinking human being with the ability to analyse, to surmise and deduce from all the information we have been presented (whether seemingly credible or not), my gut says these at least one of these boys is involved.

[Dan]

"You assert that BHT had an agenda."

Mary L - I can accept criticism but I accept it from people who read carefully and check their sources. Item 2 is that I have never heard Deepak say he had sex with Natalee, or anyone else. That tape is worthless or it would be in the hands of prosecutors or the FBI already, don't you think? Item 1 is your line above - nonsense - here is what I wrote:

"In defense of Beth Twitty, I also believe there was an effort to smear and direct blame at the boys by parties other than those from Mountain Brook. I will address that in a later post."

You don't like something you read - want to take exception to it, but do it from pure emotion, disregarding the textual facts of what I said. I'm not playing that game, sorry.

[Mezcal]

No Jon, you are making the mistake a lot of US posters make. The Aruban LE is under no obligation to share any evidence with anybody, they are not even allowed to do so, even if they wanted to. So not with Beth and especially not with us. So the reason that we do not have this info from them is not of incompetence but because of the law as it is in The Netherlands and therefor Aruba. Nobody know what they have or do not have, so nobody knows whether the a proper investigation is performed or not. The thing is that people on this as well as on other boards, think they know something because of the statements made by Beth, Joran, Skeeter or anybody else related in this case. So, I wonder how anybody can come to the conclusion that JK2 had sex with Natalee, consensual or not.

[dave]

Listen, why do you guys look to bloggers with totally unanymous and unknown sources to justify your belief that Joran is innocent? Obviously, something has convicned the ALE that the boys are involved in the disappearence. Dompig wouldn't have said so on national television tonight if that weren't the case. And Roy Tromp wouldn't have said this to the AP if it weren't the case.
Obviously there is evidence in this case, though probably circumstantial, which shows these boys are most likely invovled. If there isn't any evidence like some here are so fond of proclaiming, then you would have to believe that ALE is wholly incompetent and on a witch hunt against these three boys.

[Mezcal]

I never said Joran is innocent. I simply don't know. My problem (and I think that's the same problem Dan has) is with the US media. I cannot understand that they just refuse to check anything up or contradict BHT on one single thing. BHT contradicts some of the earlier coverage made by the same news channels she is on and they refuse to correct her. I really don't blame BHT for anything, I could live with her alligations and cry for a boycott of Aruba. She has every reason to be the way she is, but some of the thing she is saying are downright ridiculous and to take these things just for granted are making these channels unbelievable. I just heard on the NH chat here on Riehl, that now they are claiming that Deepak is telling on the tape that Joran killed Natalee!! come on, what is happening over there, is everybody losing his mind?

[frank]

Posted by: dave | Oct 8, 2005 10:12:28 PM

Again, when Dompig was asked directly, do you think you have the right guys in those 3, he responded Yes.

Are you saying he may have been talking about some MB students? I don't see how. He then explained that in most missing person cases you speak to the responsible party within the first 40 hours.

[usmcmom]

does anyone know?

Posted by: cathy | Oct 8, 2005 8:35:39 PM

Cathy,
That gentleman and another woman from the same area of Bham went missing within about 3 weeks of each other. I have not heard anything lately on either of them. My impression though, is that this seemed to be a carjacking situation with the lady, as her car was found on the interstate abandoned as I recall. I am totally at a loss to even a guesssing as to the vice-principal. We do have home invasions in the Bham metro area, west side, and he could have met foul play that way. I have wondered if he was taken from his home and killed and left off somewhere. It's sad b/c it seems that when folks turn up missing over the age of 30, there is no real media follow-up.

[Mary L.]

>

Dan, This is what I'm referring to when I said you thought she had an agenda.

Fine, you don't believe the tape is real. I don't believe they left her on the beach.

[Dan]

"Listen, why do you guys look to bloggers with totally unanymous and unknown sources to justify your belief that Joran is innocent?"

Apparently you can look to Beth with her anonymous sources to judge him guilty. And I have never said he was innocent, I only said there's no evidence we're aware of and Beth isn't relying on "evidence" to continue to make outlandish statements. The fact is, my statements are more reasoned and objective than hers, by far. If you don't see that, than you have lost track of all the things she has said. Remember when she was going to rock the world with revelations? Where are they, except for her continued speculation?

[dave]

I never said Joran is innocent. I simply don't know. My problem (and I think that's the same problem Dan has) is with the US media. I cannot understand that they just refuse to check anything up or contradict BHT on one single thing. BHT contradicts some of the earlier coverage made by the same news channels she is on and they refuse to correct her. I really don't blame BHT for anything, I could live with her alligations and cry for a boycott of Aruba. She has every reason to be the way she is, but some of the thing she is saying are downright ridiculous and to take these things just for granted are making these channels unbelievable. I just heard on the NH chat here on Riehl, that now they are claiming that Deepak is telling on the tape that Joran killed Natalee!! come on, what is happening over there, is everybody losing his mind?

Posted by: Mezcal | Oct 8, 2005 11:08:54 PM

I think US media has been trying for time now to get other parties involved in the discussions. I can't count the number of times that I have heard someone say "we invited Joran's lawyer to be on the show, but he declined" or something similar to that. It just seems to me that the other side isn't very interested in defending themselves on the media, for whatever reason.

Also, I did just hear that thing about Deepak saying that Joran killed Natalee. Jaime Skeeters said it, and I don't see what is so unbelievable about it. I think what he meant, was that Deepak was saying that he believes Joran killed Natalee. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he did say that. I think the two have been less than friends for a while now.

[Dan]

"He used the analogy of having spoke to the guilty party within the first 40 hours."

I think they may have, as well. But that doesn't mean it is one of the three always in the news.

[iquitos]

I got booted from sm dicussions recently for bucking the aruba conspiracy theory groupthink too hard having been a faithful participant and contributor since mid june. I am glad Dan has staked out a more balanced point of view. I see now that the Dr. Phil/Deepak and MSNBC/Joran interviews are being shopped around to other Fox and MSNBC outlets. I imagine they have to pay rights and pay the interviewees. Then Beth comes on (expenses paid no doubt) with increasingly absurd allegations from Joran's "confessions" copies of which she has but does not release. She calls for prosecution based on TV interview "evidence", says the aruban authorities are derelict if they fail to do as she wishes and threatens boycott. this is way out of hand. and then she says deepak is ready to talk for money and movie and book rights. one has to ask if she has looked in the mirror in that respect. I am big on due process and am bothered by attempts to try anybody in the media. None of us are judges or juries. We have not seen the evidence. It is a stretch to think that professional police, prosecutors, and judges, mostly dutch, have cooked this case to save the tree young men at the expense of the reputation of the island and of the dutch system of justice. one would think they would do the opposite if they were so sensitive to outside pressure.

[frenchymom]

Dan,
Thank you for having the courage to state what you believe and to dispel that which you have questions about.

In the media (IMO), Joran's father came off as hiding something and being less than honest. Jug Twitty came off as, well, a jerk and hot head who made allegations he never proved much of the time. Beth started out as the grieving mother on a heartfelt mission to find her daughter. At some point, she lost her objectivity and wanted answers more than she wanted the truth. Through it all, Dave and Robin Holloway maintained their integrity and my respect. They merely wanted to know what happened and find their daughter.

While Jug and Beth were in the media daily, Dave was quietly searching through landfills and numerous other areas where his daughter's body could have been. He was not interested in being in the spotlight, only in finding his daughter. You may not agree but as I said, the above is only my opinion.

I am in agreement that we don't yet know all of the facts. There were no winners in this entire situation. Each family (Natalee's, Joran's and others)have been subjected to opinions and rumours, heartache, challenges and integrity lapses.

Sadly, the fact remains that when teenagers get drunk they do not make the same decisions they would without the alcohol. When with a group having fun, they likely become a bit more of a risk taker as their inhibitions are reduced. I am sure that many of the MB students don't want to reveal the truth in public as it might disappoint their parents, families and siblings.

This night, alcohol appears to have been a contributor to Natalee's presumed death. I can only hope that we will one day learn the truth and Natalee's mother and father will not have to suffer from the lingering questions of " where is my daughter?".

My heart goes out to the families who suffered.

[frank]

Posted by: Dan | Oct 8, 2005 11:25:35 PM

Dan, he was asked, "if with these three" they had the guilty party. His first word was yes.

Now, you could say it's a form of acknowledging the question but it's right there.

He also said when referring to 2 good leads they are pursuing that they have the remains of someone. No, he didn't seem to be intimating it was Natalee, I will transcribe the exact interview, but it will take some time.

My impression however is that he is coming on to give the appearence they are working on the case. I just find his words interesting that's all.

[Kelly3]

I have a problem with Joran and the 2 friends. They lied when and where they said they dropped Natalee off. Those lies led to 2 innocent men being arrested. For 10 DAYS the 3 said nothing. If you were innocent and lied to make yourself look better could you have 2 innocent men in jail because of your lies?

I don't ever want to be in Beth's shoes. I can't imagine not knowing where my child is. I think Beth and Jug are in your face type of people and Dave is more laid back.

I have always thought something was "off" with the MB kids. I had never thought Natalee was perfect. I just hope and pray answers for Natalee's family will come. Natalee deserves to come home.