Natalee Holloway

Damn!

And Damn, again!

Sit up straight - it's lofty reading. It's sort of like what I have been saying, only it's sporting a Ph.D.

Comments

[scubajap]

btw...did you find out the room number. I noticed that there were four or five variations on this. Another poster asked that they post the room number on Blogs for Natalee and they did but she forgot to go back to the site and check so they took it away. She then asked them to contact dan to give it to you. Did you receive it?

Posted by: z | Oct 15, 2005 2:20:25 PM
Hi z-sorry you are not b you are z-no, I will just get it from HI management-nevermind-then I will know I have the right one-just a lot of people have questions about it - so I thought I would check it out-
And btw-when I was 19 I had a phony ID to get into bars where you had to be 21. so I know they exist-but to say ALL have them is a bit of a broad statement, don't you think?
In any case-no one says these kids have to go to bars to do underage drinking-they could get and older friend to buy them liquor or dip into their parents supply-I believe there is plenty of underage drinking-and it doesn't necessarily have to be in a bar.
This I am getting from 18 year olds I interviewed that were here on vacation-getting their reactions to the case.
I just think there are enough people here posting crazy stuff-you are both very intelligent and reasonable posters, and I can't see why you are fighting. you should be allies.

[VASteve]

OK, here it is in a nutshell and I'll stop.

When someone posts something like "all students can get fake id's" or whatever - most reasonable people would agree a statement like that to be an exaggeration. So I exaggerate also, and postulate that since it isn't a "fact" it ust be the opposite of a "fact" or be a lie. Logical.

So, in my edgy way, I call it out as a lie. Instead I should've maybe counceled B and said - you don't need to exaggerate to make your already strong point.

I stand corrected. I'll try to be less edgy or pushy.

But I stand by the point that exaggerations and emotional statements detract from strong logical points. And I wish for people to see that and for everyone to stregthen their points through logic and not exaggerations and emotion.

I'm done with it now and apologize for wasting precious time on it.

[b]

scuba, btw, thank you for your posts. I have always supported you because you really do care about the truth. I think you are just a regular hard working person like the rest of us who is giving up her precious leisure time to find the truths and bring them out. so thanks...

[VASteve]

Anyone want to join me in a round of golf?

[b]

But I stand by the point that exaggerations and emotional statements detract from strong logical points. And I wish for people to see that and for everyone to stregthen their points through logic and not exaggerations and emotion.

I agree, you hurt my pride and I reacted strongly too...i hope we can be friends again.

[scubajap]

hmmm interesting....I came up as "z"...now I gotta run all the virus software again and make sure all the firewalls are in place....

Posted by: b | Oct 15, 2005 2:23:42 PM
so you are b-oh nice to know I am not totally crazy!

[VASteve]

Emotion has been the driver from the get-go. Beth proclaimed "kidnapped" rather than "runaway" for good reason.

Posted by: Bitsey | Oct 15, 2005 2:22:35 PM

Such a shame.

[VASteve]

b + VASteve = friends

:)

[b]

i know scuba...that was downright wierd especially since i have checked "remember my personal information" ah the world has gone mad....lol

[VASteve]

Well, gang, hang in there. I'm going to go help OJ find Nichole's murderer. Hope I break 100.

Get it? It was humor. I can be funny sometimes.

[b]

oh scuba thanks for the intercession....as usual your were right on and we are friends again. I will take my lawyer hat off...lol

[scubajap]

Get it? It was humor. I can be funny sometimes.

Posted by: VASteve | Oct 15, 2005 2:35:28 PM
Yes, I got it - very funny!!
Are you going to enjoy and afternoon of golf-hope you are well under par!

[VASteve]

Scuba = international counselor. You gotta love it.

[VASteve]

Thanks scuba! Not much chance of that but ?? See you later...

[scubajap]

I ahve things to do now guys, have and enjoyable afternoon, and just to let you know-I also enjoy reading your posts, too.
Remember-you are the good guys. support one another.

[Julia]

Hi Scuba,

Why is the room # important?

[scubajap]

Hi, oh there are a lot of questions as to whether she could have gone back to her room unobserved, if she could have come in the sliding doors instead of the foyer-and I wanted to just check it out-her room in relation to the path from the MooMa parking lot, etc. Just to satisfy my curiousity, and put some of the arguements to rest.
That's all.
So - I really want to work out now-I won't be posting for a bit. I have been here enough today.

[Julia]

Scuba,

Ok, I've been to the room, give me a ring and I'll go with you.

[jon]

BHT had never done this before. That is, she had never undertaken an effort to get the ALE to get her daughter back and find the person or persons responsible. She was winging it. Playing it by ear. Flying by the seat of her pants. I can cut her a lot of slack for mistakes, like insulting Arubans.

Unfortunatley, the ALE had never done this before. That is, they had never undertaken an effort to get a persons daughter back and find the person or persons responsible. They were winging it. Playing it by ear. Flying by the seat of their pants. I CAN NOT CUT THEM THE AMOUNT OF SLACK I CAN CUT BHT. THIS IS THEIR F'IN JOB. AND THEY DID A TERRIBLE JOB, ESPECIALLY INITIALLY.

[festicles]

Posted by: letsbefair | Oct 15, 2005 2:58:32 AM

Well said LBF

-Veritasm

And thanks Dan for continuing to promote rational thought process on this issue.....unlike the BHT lynch mob members who already know what happened and have spent the past several months trying to make the facts conform to their accusations.

[festicles]

Posted by: berry | Oct 15, 2005 10:52:47 AM

Very well said berry. Although I am sure many will criticize you for daring to let the facts stand in the way of their accusations.

[mona]

Hi, oh there are a lot of questions as to whether she could have gone back to her room unobserved, if she could have come in the sliding doors instead of the foyer-and I wanted to just check it out-her room in relation to the path from the MooMa parking lot, etc. Just to satisfy my curiousity, and put some of the arguements to rest.
That's all.
So - I really want to work out now-I won't be posting for a bit. I have been here enough today.

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 15, 2005 2:56:40 PM

What might be more pertinient to the case and SOLVING it would be find out if anyone has seen the tapes from the Holiday inn casino when Paulus and Joran went fishing for shark bait.

[festicles]

Oh so now your saying ethnocentrism is bad? LOL tell that to the Iraqis who are voting today....American dominance is right when it suits our purpose and wrong when it it hurts anther country's tourism? LOL What a hypocrite..get a grip of yourself man

Posted by: mona | Oct 15, 2005 8:26:26 AM

Power, used inappropriately or incompetently is always wrong.

[lovaruba]

here on Aruba this case is not on local TV,in dutch language news papers nothing at all.All the Fox and CNN
TV here on Aruba starts to be a small issue. Mr.Jossy Mansur,import Arubian(former Libanon)newspaper
editior,can not entry the US because 2 members of his family were for years in a US jail for criminal
acts(moneylaundring).He has on Aruba NO CREDEBILITY.It is a shame that CNN listen to that man,who
cames up with the so called "Gardener", "to empty a pond"," looking fo a basket ball shoe"
"arm found in Venuzuala" and try to pressure girls to come up with a false story against J.v.d.S. Shows
false photographs on TV ,Again I don,t understand why CNN don't look behind their sources,

lovaruba

[Mike]

The solution to the Natalee Holloway case!

A drunken girl, happy be to be released out of the clutches of her mom gets drunk get stoned and decides to go take a swim.

End of story.

[Dave]

Since the beginning of this case i was and i am very concerned for a young girl gone missing
But as a long time supporter of the United States i cannot express my disapointment in your people.
Your total disregard for the justice system of other countries( the countries were your justice system sprong from ,you were european before you killed the indians)has offended me grately.
At parties i always defended the yanks against vile attacks from most people. As i Dutch man I fought in afghanistan and Iraq but you know what?. The people in parties were right. You are a people of imbeciels runned by a country of lying media.

[a..incanada]

Grannytoad and Dennisintn
You have it so very wrong! The last paragraph is so befitting the small percentage of loud arrogant people. Bravo to the intellect of Dr. Brotherson!!

[shonane]

be assured that every high school and college kid in america knows where to obtain a fake id which would allow them to drink in all the bars.
Posted by: b | Oct 15, 2005 11:57:51 AM

I'd like you to tell everyone why this isn't a lie. Better yet, have your attorney tell us. All I need to do is find one kid that doesn't know to make this a lie.

Posted by: VASteve | Oct 15, 2005
==========
VASteve, Not sure why you are so hostile to b for saying this. I think it is an exaggeration to say EVERY high school and college kid in American knows where to obtain a fake id, but I am aware that for those kids that want one, they can find one. What they usually do is find somebody that is already 21, like an older friend or a friends sibling, and talk them into letting them use one of their IDs, somebody that looks a similar to them. If they get caught, it is against the law at least in my state, and they can be charged with this misdemeanor. Some kids are unwilling to take the risk of getting in trouble. But if they are determined, they can find someone that will let them use it. For the more wreck less or deviant type, they just steal one. Some bars are stricter than others about scrutinizing the pictures on the IDs and they have a good idea of when to take the risk and when not to.If they look real young for their age, they probably won't try it either.

[shonane]

as a long time supporter of the United States i cannot express my disapointment in your people.
Your total disregard for the justice system of other countries( the countries were your justice system sprong from ,you were european before you killed the indians)has offended me grately.
At parties i always defended the yanks against vile attacks from most people. As i Dutch man I fought in afghanistan and Iraq but you know what?. The people in parties were right. You are a people of imbeciels runned by a country of lying media.

Posted by: Dave
=========================
Good grief Dave, don't bring the killing of the American Indians into this. None of us were even alive when that happened, nor were our parents.

And do you know how ridiculous you sound saying the US is a people of imbeciles. People are people all over the world and what one says doesn't represent the another. Similarly, just like the Muslems try to tell folks - Al Queda and terrorists just represent some small subgroup, doesn't represent all Muslems.

People posting on here represent themself and their own viewpoints - they don't speak for their country for goodness sakes.

[shonane]

I don,t understand why CNN don't look behind their sources,

lovaruba

Posted by: lovaruba | Oct 15
=================
Me either. And that is exactly what Dan has commented about this past week. I think they usually do have credibility, and for some reason, the coverage of this case seems to have been an ignore the rules of the vetting process. Is the reason as simple as the ratings? Is there another reason?

[thoughtful]

I have been reading since day 1 (started on SM then changed to RWV)and never posted here because someone usually expressed my thoughts anyway. I don't know anything except NH is missing, dead or alive, I don't know. I don't know if the so called suspects are guilty of if they know anymore than they have said. But one thing I do disagree with that I have seen posted here; 'If this had happened in U.S. the suspects would have been free in 24,48,72 hrs. etc. because of lack of evidence'. If this had happened in U.S. since, the last person/persons known to have seen her alive were identified immediately, they would have automatically become "Persons of interest" (AKA the Biehl case) Warrants would have been issued to search, examine and confiscate any items that might contain pertinent evidence before it could be disposed of. If this had been done within the first 24-48 hours, the current suspects might not be suspects at all. I realize this did not happen in the U.S. so this is a moot point.I just wish that it had been done. It could have eliminated so much confusion and agony for all parties involved.

[uauabrn]

Hi Angela

That was a great post and you hit the nail right on the head pure and simple!
Lots of people will shoot at you eveytime you post something that does not agree with the Beth Twitty and her spin machine team that Joran and the Kalpoes brothers did it theory and this is due to them consuming far too much of that Twitty "kool-aid" mixture that you are referring to!

Sadly, far too many people here never even consider any of the other many possibilities of things that may have happened to Natalee even including the posibility that she may still be very much alive somewhere!

[VASteve]

Posted by: shonane | Oct 16, 2005 1:25:14 AM

I explained my frustration with the post back a few posts, but suffice it to say, it's OK. You probably already know that by now.

[Jane]

I have been reading since day 1 (started on SM then changed to RWV)and never posted here because someone usually expressed my thoughts anyway. I don't know anything except NH is missing, dead or alive, I don't know. I don't know if the so called suspects are guilty of if they know anymore than they have said. But one thing I do disagree with that I have seen posted here; 'If this had happened in U.S. the suspects would have been free in 24,48,72 hrs. etc. because of lack of evidence'. If this had happened in U.S. since, the last person/persons known to have seen her alive were identified immediately, they would have automatically become "Persons of interest" (AKA the Biehl case) Warrants would have been issued to search, examine and confiscate any items that might contain pertinent evidence before it could be disposed of. If this had been done within the first 24-48 hours, the current suspects might not be suspects at all. I realize this did not happen in the U.S. so this is a moot point.I just wish that it had been done. It could have eliminated so much confusion and agony for all parties involved.

Posted by: thoughtful | Oct 16, 2005 2:34:46 AM

Very insightful post. And to take it a step further what would motivate every single person in LE to look another direction? I would expect them to at least be curious. Would there not be at least one person who would think to take these measures to rule these kids out.

Thanks for posting thoughtful
-Jane

[Not a Hand Wringer]

I have seen countless Xenophobic and Jingoistic posts from Americans on this forum and others with respect to many topics....including Natalee Holloway.

Because of that, I'm in agreement with the article.

[Freebird]

Berry your time line is not correct. The Kalpoes mom even slipped up and said they were not home till around 4:00 a.m. It was never confirmed that Deepak was on line. And Paulus said to start with it was about 2:00a.m. when he went to pick Joran up at Mcdonlds but then changed it to 4:00 a.m. Because it never happen Deepak wasn't on line and Paulus didn't pick up Joran remember Joran said he walked home or was it he called Deepak for a ride as Deepak's mom said "WE ALL LIE" and indeed they have. LIE AFTER LIE AFTER LIE!!!!!!! The problem is Aruba thought they would sweep this under the rug and it would just go away but Beth said no she wants her daughter and has done everything she can to keep the story alive and get her daughter or some answers to what happen that night. Four people in car minus one when they return means three people know something happen. What was that quote from Deepak "Something Bad Happen to Natalee" indeed it did. We will see who the stronger one is now because tides are turning people talking one will tell on the other......

[scubajap]

Berry your time line is not correct. The Kalpoes mom even slipped up and said they were not home till around 4:00 a.m. It was never confirmed that Deepak was on line. And Paulus said to start with it was about 2:00a.m. when he went to pick Joran up at Mcdonlds but then changed it to 4:00 a.m. Because it never happen Deepak wasn't on line and Paulus didn't pick up Joran remember Joran said he walked home or was it he called Deepak for a ride as Deepak's mom said "WE ALL LIE" and indeed they have.
Posted by: Freebird | Oct 17, 2005 5:21:00 PM

Freebird, why don't you get YOUR facts straight.
for one thing all the times on the computer and cell phone calls have been confirmed and entered into evidence to the court.
the mcDonald's pickup was at 11pm and there is no proof to the contrary, except for the interpretations 4 MONTHS LATER from people that claim that he changed it-people that do not speak dutch, so how do they know what he was talking about- and you even misquote Deepak,
and it is very likely that the statement of the Kalpoe's mother was tampered with too, as they did not show her face.

so how about BS UPON BS UPON BS???

[COLUMBO]

The men who play dice and 'roll'

The Dicemen must be questioned-they were there

Columbo gives you The Dicemen:

www.dicemen.net