Natalee Holloway

Damn!

And Damn, again!

Sit up straight - it's lofty reading. It's sort of like what I have been saying, only it's sporting a Ph.D.

Comments

[angela]

What really sucks about this whole deal is that Natalee is still missing. It's just not about Natalee anymore and that is truly sad. This whole deal is out of control. I feel that some are more set on hanging Joran and Deepak than finding Natalee. Why assume she is not alive? Someone knows the truth and I'm not convinced it it Joran and Deepak. Sheesh, if she is alive somewhere, even being held against her will, many want to think she is dead. We dont know this. Not one of the so called "Twitty bashers" are ready to give up on the fact that she may be alive and may even need help. That doesn't make them bad people, just more open minded to the facts of this case. I just cannot understand people who can't think positively. When I see some proof that Natalee is no longer alive, and that Joran and Deepak are responsible, I may better understand the "kool-aid drinkers", but at this point I dont understand why some are so quick to jump to the conclusion that she is no longer with us.

[AT]

Good stuff, and I think it has a lot of relevance to this case. However, I think at the same time people should careful of the opposite, assuming that cultures, political systems, etc. are equal.

[TheAlamo]

Excellent expose' on American arrogance...which, like all other "empires" that became this way....will aid in our own demise.

[INDIANAREDNECK]

Hey Dan if you had a member of your family missing who wood you want on the case the F.B.I. or the Aruban LE?

[dennisintn]

what a crock of bs. BUT, i'd be willing to be that beth, jug, dave, and robin, and the rest of natalee's family would be more than willing to crawl across the street on hands and knees and beg at the feet of anyone who could give natalee back to them. this long winded, say nothing guy reminds me of the hired gun psychologist from aruba who wrote all the lies about natalee and beth last month. i can't remember his name, and don't care enough about him to look up his posts, but its sounding more and more like hysteria and fear may finally be taking hold on in certain households on aruba. i'll be very happy when the good people of aruba can be proud of their country again, and we can continue enjoying their lovely company and country without fear of being victimized by the few bad seeds on the island.

[letsbefair]

I think a lot of people have been seeing what's been going on. It's just that some people don't speak their mind for fear of being attacked. I've never had that problem. :D

[angela]

Is there anything I can do to speed up SM so these guys will go back????

[VC]

LOL angela.

[GrannyToad]

Through one - Dr Brotherson seems to have shallowly scanned the subject before getting it wrong - one looks at the last paragraph.

[Dez_Perado]

Somehow you and your cronies have found a way to blame an 18-year-old for her own demise an excuse the behavior of three thugs that can’t keep their story straight from one day to the next. I find that to be an incredibly cruel and mean leap of faith (wrong word).

You have let your egotistical rants obscure the reality of the situation and then feed your perverse need for sensationalism.

Why not put a stop on your spinning brains for a moment and give this situation some careful thought? And, begin with who is missing. It’s not Joran, Deepak, Satish, Paulus, Freddie, Steve, or any of the other canines on that island that sniff out easy targets. It is one young, naive female that trusted too much and disappeared without a trace after her encounter with these clowns.

Let the vulgarity die its own death and look toward the reality! This girl left with three and never came back….

[GrannyToad]

Part 2, more of the same literally salted & peppered with jingoism. Support your November Caribbean whateverthatwas.

[newswatcher]

What really sucks about this whole deal is that Natalee is still missing. It's just not about Natalee anymore and that is truly sad. This whole deal is out of control. I feel that some are more set on hanging Joran and Deepak than finding Natalee. Why assume she is not alive? Someone knows the truth and I'm not convinced it it Joran and Deepak. Sheesh, if she is alive somewhere, even being held against her will, many want to think she is dead. We dont know this. Not one of the so called "Twitty bashers" are ready to give up on the fact that she may be alive and may even need help. That doesn't make them bad people, just more open minded to the facts of this case. I just cannot understand people who can't think positively. When I see some proof that Natalee is no longer alive, and that Joran and Deepak are responsible, I may better understand the "kool-aid drinkers", but at this point I dont understand why some are so quick to jump to the conclusion that she is no longer with us.

Posted by: angela | Oct 14, 2005 10:25:14 PM

I totally agree, Angela. It's almost as if people want to have Natalee raped and dead at the hands of JK2 than possibly alive and missing. so far there is still no evidence of a crime, but many people would rather blame them without evidence and punish the whole island of Aruba than work to solve the mystery. How all this has helped to find Natalee, I will never know.

Since the beginning, I have said that the Ugly Americanism of the Twittys and the media would only hinder the case. Arrogance and entitlement are not the way to get results or longlasting support.

Something that I cannot get over is why this has never been an international search.

[letsbefair]

Let the vulgarity die its own death and look toward the reality! This girl left with three and never came back….

Posted by: Dez_Perado | Oct 14, 2005 11:12:41 PM

At least 1 MB teen stated on camera that she did make it back to the HI. Some of you are looking for reality with blinders on. If she ran away on her own free will then yes, it is her fault that she's missing. If she went to buy drugs and the MB group won't talk about it, then they are partially responsible. If she was shipped off to Venezuela or some other hell hole, then the Twittys aren't doing much good harassing J2K are they? Natalee wasn't at Joran's house. He didn't kidnap her. Beth is just too thick headed to admit that she was wrong.

[Dez_Perado]

You people are joking, right?

[Dez_Perado]

Give me something that supports one word of your speculation, please.

[George]

> At least 1 MB teen stated on camera that she did make it back to the HI.

LetsBeFair,

Can you help me to locate a transcript of this interview?

[Dan]

"Hey Dan if you had a member of your family missing who wood you want on the case the F.B.I. or the Aruban LE?"

You present that as if there is a choice, Indiana - sorry there isn't. There's no more choice than if a Brit or a Russian or a whatever came here, disappeared and they tried to tell us their government agency was going to take the lead in the case.

Go back and read the early coverage at how much the FBI was involved. I can tell you this much - if I had a child go missing in Aruba - I wouldn't want Beth, Jug, 95% of the hangers on they had, Geraldo, Greta and Jossy trying to find them. THAT's for DAMNED sure.

For christ's sake - a family friend used to tell me how one of their ace detectives greatest accomplishments was being sober for his nightly Fox appearance as he was usually loaded by 11AM. Are you freaking kidding me??

[Dan]

SM should probably be back up tomorrow so you guys can all get out of this hellhole!!!!

I'll be happy to help you along tinkerbelle - say goodbye - idiot.

[ustt]

HELLO, I can't take anything somebody named FESTUS writes. I couldn't get past the name. Could somebody tell me what he says?

[Marshall Dillon says to Festus: Go saddle up the horses Festus, we got some ridin to do, and tell Miss Kitty we're a leavin.]

[kin]

BH had everything going against her from the start. She knew the main suspect's father was in the legal system, he had a close connection to the police chief, the ALE didn't pursue the first facts/leads properly, and all the suspects lied like rugs. Anyone with half a brain hearing about this case could smell a rat and that's what kept NH in the news. That's what gave her mother more then enough reason to keep it there. The MSM got the same whiff and it grew stronger after the suspects were all released. This is why they've never let up, why they're still listening to BH, why they're still putting her on the air.

If BH and the MSM had just gone away like Aruba wanted there'd never be any justice for Natalee. It looks like we're going to find out there was a coverup and there will be evidence that points right at the ones they let get away.

Will BH get vindication or will she still be seen as the 'bad guy'? I already know the pitiful answer to that.

[bmt]

Hey Dan if you had a member of your family missing who wood you want on the case the F.B.I. or the Aruban LE?

Posted by: INDIANAREDNECK | Oct 14, 2005 10:40:25 PM
You might note on the US Travel Department site it says that US citizens are subject to the laws and legal systems of the countries that they visit.

As are foreign nationals when they comes to the US. Dont liKe it? Then stay in the US>

[TheAlamo]

Amazing. I cannot believe this many people missed the whole point of the article. The article suggested that, although understandable, perhaps there could have been a better way, especially with some of the antics televised by TV for nothing more than RATINGS. And...since seeing the results as they have been, it is obvious, that what was done did not change the outcome, but it has brought out some closed mindsets.

The media will ALWAYS play the cards to THEIR benefit. The problem is when their grandstanding is accepted as truth, when, they have a historical record of "stretching" things beyond a reasonable doubt...in many more instances than just this. In fact, that is their job--entertainment. The hell with the facts, let's just see if we can cause a rise. Truth via the news, died a long time ago in this country.

I personally believe these three have guilt in either her death, or, the possibility that she was sold, but the person who wrote the article cautioned any of us from lynch mob mentalities for good reason. If that reason needs to be explained to adults, then God help us.

What is most amazing are those who call on boycotts, invasions and other juvenile reactions. If we are going to be that way, then we better invade every American city, and clean up our own act before supposing we have the right to tell others about their own.

This incident is not...and never was, Aruba against America. It is a sad tragedy of a young girl that is probably the victim of a FEW, or even ONE perpetrator. To be immature enough to think the whole island is behind it is something for a TV show. to think that Americans are the only people who care about others is ludicrous, especially when considering some of our own national behavior.

The guy who wrote this article was fair and objective, both to Beth Twitty, and Aruba. Too bad he isn't in charge of some of the media outlets we call "news sources."

[HenriLaFleur]

I say Remember the Alamo. However I disagree that the three boys "likely" had something to do with her disappearance. I think not as one of them would have broke or turned.

[kin]

I didn't miss what was missing in the article. There is a difference in the legal system but that doesn't explain away how badly (some of it intentionally?) ALE handled this case.

[splashtc]

What other society is even remotely close to the great american way. Got it-flaunt it.

[blink]

Will BH get vindication or will she still be seen as the 'bad guy'? I already know the pitiful answer to that.

Posted by: kin | Oct 14, 2005 11:35:23 PM

Vindication for Beth? Or finding Natalee?
Oh thats right, its not about finding Natalee any more.

When FOX, MSNBC, and Nancy Grace stop calling, I wonder how long will it take Beth to start accusing the news media of using her just to get ratings.

[scubajap]

Posted by: TheAlamo | Oct 14, 2005 11:39:52 PM

Beautifully said Alamo.
Kudos to you

[TheAlamo]

What other society is even remotely close to the great american way. Got it-flaunt it.

Posted by: splashtc | Oct 15, 2005 12:14:21 AM

Alexis De Toqueville: "America is great because America is good. When America ceases being good, she will cease being great."

Pride is one thing, arrogance another. Pride need say nothing, since actions speak louder than words.
Arrogance is taking credit for something you did not do, and therefore have no reason to be arrogant about.

The American way was humble...when we were great. If you check a little history, our "greatness" is on the decline...... steadily.

[scubajap]

I say Remember the Alamo. However I disagree that the three boys "likely" had something to do with her disappearance. I think not as one of them would have broke or turned.

Posted by: HenriLaFleur | Oct 15, 2005 12:00:55 AM
I am inclined to agree, as are many others.

[TheAlamo]

I didn't miss what was missing in the article. There is a difference in the legal system but that doesn't explain away how badly (some of it intentionally?) ALE handled this case.

Posted by: kin | Oct 15, 2005 12:13:23 AM

Yep, and O.J. is walking around free as well.

[George]

Hi ScubaJap,

A few former http://www.rjames.com/forums/ members including Dayo http://news.google.com/news?q=%22Dayo+Gould%22 and myself have created an invitational message board primarily for uncensored civil discussion of the Natalee Holloway case which we view more in sense of inappropriate behavior by US media. We have now 50 members, a half of who are active.

We would like to invite you to join, but my e-mail attempt failed. If you are interested, please e-mail me.

[*LCG*]

Ethnocentrism aside; All those who would send their children away to party in another country, raise their hand!

[Sly2SmoothieNJs]

kick a man (well in this woman) when he's down..............I guess that's ok with this guy.
I find it all irrelevent.
I don't care about Arubans feelings over-stepped...
I don't care about who's feelings are hurt by a woman who's daughter is missing...
I don't care about the poor reputation this may give to Aruba...
I don't care if Joran and the bros. feel like people are picking on them...
ALL I care about is finding NATALEE.

[YouKnowWho!]

Beth Holloway-Twitty and indeed the majority of Americans waited patiently and bit our tongues for three months as ALE bungled and fumbled and did acts of deliberate obfuscation in this investigation... They were given every benefit of the doubt, ethnicity differences considered and extreme patience and tolerance granted at each and every turn.

It was used against us good-natured Americans and to the advantage of those apparently only interested in covering for their cronies and protecting Aruban Tourism. Had Aruba not been so financially greedy as to want this to appear to have never happened, this case would have likely been solved in 72 hours. It is simple and straight-forward that four left and only three were ever seen again. Nothing complex about it and from the get go Aruba was far more concerned with preserving tourism than locating this missing person. Can't have a crime in paradise, doncha know.

Interesting how Dan suddenly develops respect for a PhD even if only in political science but nothing but scorn for Dr Phil with a PhD in psychology, something far more relevant in this case. It is Aruba who politicized it, not the U.S. We just want Natalee back.

And to those who keep using the exaggeration about "hanging" the suspects, please get real! There is no death penalty in Dutch law which is geared and stacked very much to the benefit of the perpetrators of crime. Beth has NOT asked for justice, just her daughter back or an accounting of what happened to her, a truthful one. Perhaps if some cultures would practice more openness and honesty, there would not be all these alleged misunderstandings.

I contend that it is NOT a misunderstanding nor some evil assumption of supremacy on the part of the U.S. but simply the fact we were not nearly as stupid and easily duped as the EU propaganda assured the Dutch in charge we would be. So perhaps there is a lesson in this for the all-knowing Dutchies and Arubans as well. I think we can ALL learn something from this tragedy and that is a good place for them to start.

For the U.S., a good place to start is understanding the judicial or lack thereof systems abroad. The justice meted out in a country is reflective of the moral fiber of same. So now we know.

[TheAlamo]

ALL I care about is finding NATALEE.

Posted by: Sly2SmoothieNJs | Oct 15, 2005 1:30:11 AM

My suggestion would be to grab a flight, and go down and help out. This will help you relieve your frustration about others not doing just exactly what you think is the right thing. Then, you can speak from experience, instead of conjecture.
Your argument will be much better that way.

[TheAlamo]

I contend that it is NOT a misunderstanding nor some evil assumption of supremacy on the part of the U.S. but simply the fact we were not nearly as stupid and easily duped as the EU propaganda assured the Dutch in charge we would be.

Posted by: YouKnowWho! | Oct 15, 2005 2:19:36 AM

Really?

I could spend years on that one, but you have done a much better job, right here in front of an audience.

[katy]

I'm a little tired of hearing how "we" were respectful of the Aruban system and tried to let them do it their way. If that were so, the suspects' names and faces would never have appeared in the press and we all knew thoses names and faces in early June.

[letsbefair]

simply the fact we were not nearly as stupid and easily duped as the EU propaganda assured the Dutch in charge we would be.

Posted by: YouKnowWho! | Oct 15, 2005 2:19:36 AM

You weren't duped by the Dutch. You were duped by the Twittys and the tabloid media. Now it's the "Deepak's taped confession" that's going to nail J2K. What happened to the "drugged and raped women from around the world"? Was that yet another hoax? I thought you were going to find Natalee in the landfill, or the pond, or was it that concrete barrel? The psychics couldn't possibly be wrong, could they? I guess they weren't using "real" psychics. What happened to Art Wood's human bone finder? I just can't believe it didn't work! You mean it wasn't Natalee's hand that washed up in Venezuala? Didn't Tim Miller's dogs "hit" at the quarry? Can dogs really smell through water? The "empty grave"? Sure it wasn't just a hole in the ground?

How many more false accusations are you going to throw at Joran? Isn't it enough that he raped women from around the world? You have to add a half brother that deals drugs, gangrape of a virgin, 26 different confessions, leading police to the body, his godfather the chief of police, unlimited line of credit at the casinos, 9 lawyers, killed his dog, threw a boy through a plateglass window, pulled a knife on a girl at C&C's, punched Natalee in the face at C&C's (per Joe Scarborough on internationl TV), sold a gangbang video he made with a 14 yr old, and yet has no arrest record whatsoever. Those Aruban LE sure are tollerant!

Do you really think that coming up with false accusations is enough to convict someone of a crime? So if that doesn't work you come up with more false accusations? Is that how your malfunctioning brain works?

How many more hoaxes will be perpetrated in this case before someone puts a stop to it?

STOP THE WITCH HUNT!

[TheAlamo]

How many more hoaxes will be perpetrated in this case before someone puts a stop to it?

STOP THE WITCH HUNT!

Posted by: letsbefair | Oct 15, 2005 2:58:32 AM

Don't you find it interesting that those who do so are the very same ones talking about our superior American system? What a paradox! We are so superior, because we have such a great system, and then ....lights out...let's hang them without a trial. It is as I said above. Those of the arrogance have absolutely nothing to be arrogant about, specifically, and especially... their knowledge about America...guess that's why they feel they have to.
Way, too much TV.

[chickadee]

There could very easily be a resolution to this case-those guilty need to come forward and 'fess up, let Natalee's family take her home or be told what happened to her, and let justice be served to whomever is responsible for her dissapearance. I don't think this is too much to ask. Why is that such a problem for some of you? Instead of posting nastiness and fighting like little kids, we need to put our energy toward positive steps to find Natalee. We need to just agree to disagree, and start acting like adults once again. This goes for ALL posters/theorists/no matter which "side" you agree with-myself included, of course:O Now, where do we start?

[lawbster]

thank you Alamo, you've hit it with eloquence.

[macarena]

If the picture of a girl laying on the bar in Carlos and Charlie's posted on this site was Natalee, alcohol must have caused her to lose her inhibitions to engage in that type of behavior, assuming that she was not drugged. Since Beth claims that Natalee did not go to bars in Alabama, it's inconceivable that she would lay on a bar if she wasn't drunk.

I know the possibility that she could have had alcohol poisoning has been brought up before, but I wonder if the proof and amount of alcohol she had and what she ate that night has been determined by talking to the MB students and the bartenders at C AND C'S. If the info can be obtained, at least we would know that Natalee could have been the victim of alcohol poisoning, especially since Joran said she was going in and out of consciousness.

Maybe alcohol caused her death, and Joran and K2 got scared and dumped her body in the ocean or paid someone else to do it, or maybe Joran left her on the beach like he said and someone else stumbled on to her and did her in.

There was a recent case in NY about a young girl who died of alcohol poisoning while she was with a guy, but he called the police. It was a third page newspaper story a few months ago, I don't remember the details.

[macarena]

If the picture of a girl laying on the bar in Carlos and Charlie's posted on this site was Natalee, alcohol must have caused her to lose her inhibitions to engage in that type of behavior, assuming that she was not drugged. Since Beth claims that Natalee did not go to bars in Alabama, it's inconceivable that she would lay on a bar if she wasn't drunk.

I know the possibility that she could have had alcohol poisoning has been brought up before, but I wonder if the proof and amount of alcohol she had and what she ate that night has been determined by talking to the MB students and the bartenders at C AND C'S. If the info can be obtained, at least we would know that Natalee could have been the victim of alcohol poisoning, especially since Joran said she was going in and out of consciousness.

Maybe alcohol caused her death, and Joran and K2 got scared and dumped her body in the ocean or paid someone else to do it, or maybe Joran left her on the beach like he said and someone else stumbled on to her and did her in.

There was a recent case in NY about a young girl who died of alcohol poisoning while she was with a guy, but he called the police. It was a third page newspaper story a few months ago, I don't remember the details.

[SMposter]

Angela, They were shut down through legal action taken against them and there's more to come. Some guy over there (admin) named Thorazine is actually a criminal with a record.
Mostly spousal abuse but evidently there's a lot more, Including indentity thieft and many members lost thousands of dollars. I hope you were being sarcastic? haha.
The site owners knew of and condoned Thorazine's activities so be careful. They also have a lot of people over there what work for Ernie Rizzo that were posting propaganda they got caught in the mix but found out due to some Fed working going on.

[scubajap]

Posted by: YouKnowWho! | Oct 15, 2005 2:19:36 AM

Hi Seedyrum! back checking things out?

[scubajap]

There could very easily be a resolution to this case-those guilty need to come forward and 'fess up, let Natalee's family take her home or be told what happened to her, and let justice be served to whomever is responsible for her dissapearance. I don't think this is too much to ask.
Posted by: chickadee | Oct 15, 2005 3:22:57 AM

I am sorry chickadee-but, how old are you? What fantasy world do you live in? Even though it isn't the Natalee Holloway case is being treated like "The crime of the century" and you think that whoever did it is just going to come forward and "'fess up?" Did the BTK killer? Did Ben Fawley? Did Scott Petersen? or OJ Simpson? Did any of these people come forward and "'fess up?' I don't mean to be offensive, but get real.

[Brooke]

I have said from day one that this BT and her entourage were responsible for the way the case went. No One else!

She and her husband came into Aruba with a bully redneck attitude which was embarrasing.
And this idolization of her and all things southern by not only the media but by the people who referred to anyone who didn't idolize her as "Beth-bashers" was an embarrasment to most. Still is.

While I don't like to be referred to as an elite American I do love my country and all it stands for and do demand respect from others when in their country but by the same token will offer respect for them and their customs.

This absolving her and her redneck husband because she is a grieving mother of all sense of decorum was outrageous! She hired people to do a job while smearing everything Aruban. Aruba did nothing to her or her daughter she and her family are solely responsible for her daughters actions while on foreign soil.

And now to add insult to injury she asks for a boycott of Aruba. Which won't fly with Americans.
Just who does she think she is? Grieving mother? Than act like one! She went into Aruba with a demanding spoiled brat attitude and than came Greta and Scarborough who contributed to the biggest reality show ever. Night after night programs devoted to listening to a angry person whining and accusing. I never felt any compassion for her because of that attitude she and her obnoxious husband had. All it did was to show the kind of person she really is and it wasn't pretty.

Beth-bashing? There are many very good reasons for it brought on by herself.

I ask the media, N.Grace and J. Scarborough to please have some sense and lay off this NON-story and let it go!! We all are sick of it!!

[ringo]

Actually scubajap, Im finding a lot of humor in your efforts.
I saw where MIP6 had posted about me having kids at MB which is pretty odd since I have none. That was a kick, so you might want to check you're facts before you start posting anti anything (just fair warning). whats more you're own peeps on Carlos and Charlies are (were they locked the thread, I expect to see it go missing anytime now) posting about the den being a real establishment of i'll repute (next to the vip) poor mip6 is "staking out" the wrong place, some pretty good investigation work there MIP6, maybe you should let the real pros like your local LE handle it? Odebers son poped on just so he could say that he also knows of the lions den - cried about not being able to go there so he wouldn't get in trouble lol. Wow some pretty good stories.. Next we'll all hear that Dompig isn't the kalpoes cousin at all right? Check those birth records out before you post though you don't want to be exposed for being a liar anymore then you have.
hat tips to your efforts even if they are are just made up stories. Say hi to my kids for me ta ta.....

[Henri]

BROOKE you are so right being a grieving mother does not make her judge and jury and does not give her the right to accuse people without proof .
If she has any she should put it where her mouth is.

[aris]

It is difficult to understand what positive gain is made in finding Natalee when Natalee's stepfather continues to publicly state on the Greta van Susteren show on Fox News cable television channel on October 14, 2005 that written police statements show the boys Satish, Deepak, and Joran had sex with her(http://thepoliticalteen.com/video/juggretapauljossy.wmv)when the official public statements by the case's lead police investigator, Deputy Chief of Police Gerold Dompig, made in an interview the day prior on October 13, 2005, when appearing on the Abrams Report on MSNBC-TV cable channel, that the boys had never made those statements (http://thepoliticalteen.com/video/natabrahms.wmv). One would feel that Natalee's stepfather and mother would have seen the Abrams report broadcast or a reairing of it recognizing the number of interviews they are conducting on the Fox and MSNBC-TV cable channels.

It was also disappointing to hear Natalee's stepfather say the prosecutor should have called Natalee's mother directly instead of calling their Aruban attorney to ask for Natalee's mother to contact the prosecutor. The prosecutor took the correct action by contacting the family's attorney. With an attorney retained to represent the family, that would be the person the prosecutor would procedurally contact.

This is not to be taken critically of Natalee's families. It takes everyone working together positively to help. Negative statements appearing in direct conflict with what the police have now publicly stated serve no purpose in helping to find Natalee.

Prayers continue for Natalee and her family in trying to find a peaceful, positive resolution to her disappearance in such a way that everyone works together. If Natalee's family helps the police and prosecutor in that direction, it will make life easier for all. After continuing negative emotions from one party are made to another, then negative emotions are sometimes said in return.