Natalee Holloway: Clearing Up Details

As I don't particularly know Aruba, I'm not defending anyone leaving someone else alone on a beach at night. But one thing is strange to me. There were many visitors that night because of the music festival - some attendees came by boat. It's my understanding that there were often people around the beaches at night in Aruba, even without a large concert.

Not sure what that all adds up to, but along with that, here's an image taken from infront of the fisherman's hut area looking south toward Natalee's hotel. Hopefully it'll provide some perspective, if nothing else.

Also, if this was their last destination from a car ride which went to the lighthouse - it seems odd they would have stopped so close to the hotel to be alone, unless the plan was for Natalee to return there at the end of their time together. It looks like the closest location to have some time alone without actually going back to the room itself - assuming there was no one there. Any closer and the beach becomes more public.

Comments

[k.jeanne]

At night,with all the people coming and going, I just cannot see that as a dangerous place to be, even alone in the evening. Surely there were many other people using the beach in the nighttime. I also cannot imagine someone could rape and kill a person there. It just doesn't make sense. If there was foul play to Natalee by Joran and the Kalpoes, then I believe it took place somewhere else. I cannot get over the nagging feeling that Natalee was indeed kidnapped. I keep wondering, if Natalee was given date rape drugs, if Joran did leave her, did she present herself to someone other group of guys, not realizing at all what she was doing?

[helmut]

heyaah, am I banned/? am I posting??

[helmut]

will yeah
!!!! hopde hoop de whakkar!! hha

[bizman12]

K.Jeanne,
Get over that nagging feeling about the kidnapping.It never happened she went willingly.Explain why you think she was kidnapped.I do think that scenario has been ruled out by obvious proof from her classmates.

[scubajap]

Further the only reason the "boys" were taken into custody, was because they were the last "reportedly" seen with Natalee and they lied. The police can issue a statement about evidence, but not about clarifying the release of the three "suspects"? Obviously, the court released them, but understand according to Aruban law, nothing is to be made public beyond the statement in the court's opinion, not enough evidence to hold them...any more clarification is forbidden by law? could someone clarify this...thanks, danie

Posted by: danie | Oct 9, 2005 9:15:06 PM
v/d Stratten and Dompig did not make these statements in an official capacity-they made them to a friend and part of the community, someone they know-in a conversation discussing the case.
ME
As for why they were finally released-that is very lenghty.
You had to be here and in the middle of it to know all the craziness going on as the Sept 4 approached. I can't go into it here-but some of the things could almost be contrued as mis- conduct in the desperate attempts to make the case. The final clincher to removal of restrictions was the fact that despite being told the DNA samples were illegally obtained (only a judge can order it) and the order to have them destroyed, Karin Jansen lied to the court that she had done it-when she actually had them tested-and they proved NEGATIVE to the male DNA on the toothbrush. This information she kept hidden from the court-but the lab sent the results to the judge anyway-and when he got it-he was very ticked, so he decided to accept it into evidence anyway. Since this was the only possible physical evidence that would have tied the boys into the case-at that point he removed the restrictions.

[GAmom]

thanks scubajap.

[bizarre]

scuba,

early on it was stated that the concert was attended by some very
important people...someone said a prince or something from a middle
eastern country and the prince's entourage and someone also said,
besides all the rich people and their yachts, there was a yacht
belonging to some religion there.

also, early on someone said that a lot of the groupies that follow
the performers were there and that it might have been possible for
our ms. h to join up with this bunch to follow the band.

needless to say, immediately upon saying this information, both
of these posters were summarily chastised and banned fromt the
site and everyone went back to the party line and continued to
drink the kool aid.

[Jon]

Jon,
So you saying that there were 3 times where Natalee was around fellow students after the closing of CNC's and all 3 times she did not take the opportunity to escape from the KIDNAPPERS.

Whether or not she was once or twice or three times asked not to go with them is not worth arguing about.I have read where it was twice,you say once,the paragraph you posted is not indicative of what otehrs may say but only what one source said.Bottom line is she had opportunity to leave with her classmates which totally debunks Beth's claim of Natalee being kidnapped and of her claim that Natalee never stood a chance.

Posted by: bizman12 | Oct 9, 2005 9:17:46 PM

No, it doesn't. Being kidnapped does not at all depend on getting in the car unwillingly. She could have been kidnapped after she got in, if she wanted to go to the HI and they took her somewhere else. Also, she could have have been drugged.

[danie]

Thank you scubajap...very interesting, appreciate first hand knowledge; if i may ask just one more question (if you are still here)...your personal evaluation of deepak being that you (and investigators) only heard "good things" about him and from that description, one would think he possesses a conscience (assumption of good character)...do you have a theory as to why he would choose to lie and therefore impede an investigation in its early stages? more importantly, does he possess the abitlity to reason that his misleading authorities could possibly prevent the truth of what happened to Natalee be discovered? even perhaps at the time, be in possession of information that may have helped find her? I know that was more than one question, apologies...but do you have a theory? thanks again, danie

[scubajap]

Posted by: bizarre | Oct 9, 2005 9:40:18 PM

actually-I know the harbormaster pretty well-I know that sound, I don't know what-but I have lived here for a long time-and in particular I am very well acquianted with most everyone around the water-at least from the old crowd-I haven't worked on the waterfront for about 2 years now-being in the news business puts me in contact with all the others around the case-aside from social contacts-that is how I have come to know-and be known to so many people-but anyway-I was planning to go to the harbor master to ask about which boats left soon after-just to see if anything interesting came up. I know there was a lot of curiosity about the Octopus-but that was completely unfounded.
As for the groupie thing-I think Natalee would have stood out like a chunk of white chocolate in a chocolate cookie-if you get my drift.
Besides-she could not have traveled without documentation-and here entry card and passport were in her room. so I wouldn't give the groupy thing a lot of credence-do you think they had a special for them?-that's just silly-

[ustt]

If Natalee was as wild as she is being portrayed the last couple of days -- without abandon pursing people and dancing wantonly......why would she have done anything on the beach???

She would have taken Joran to her room -- the kids were in the lobby, out by the pool -- the way it is reported. Hardly anybody slept that night it is reported. So why wallow around on some wet sandy beach.

Any girl in that state of mind (if one is to believe it - which I don't) would have taken Joran to her room....and the rest of the world be damned. It sounds like the other kids were not that much of what you'd call prudes anyway.

Nope, not buying the beach story as a place to make out -- not for a girl who is being portrayed as pursing sex in a grand manner.

[dave]

Dompig was just on Fox News. He stated unequivocally that they did NOT search the Van Der Sloots houes at all, only the apartmnet of Joran on the grounds. He said the judge would not grant them permission to search the VDS house, even after the arrest of Paulus.

[bizarre]

thanks scuba, it would be interesting to know, once and for all
if there is any credibility in the idea that she could have been
taken away by boat.
i love your sense of humor...you made me laugh out loud

[frank]

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 9, 2005 7:56:30 PM

He was asked about those specific three but I sure hope not.

Did you actually say that Karen Jannsen lied to the court? I mean, I know I don't understand the Ductch legal system but I would think the court would be
very suspect of a prosecutor who lies the them?

[frank]

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 9:55:23 PM

When was this, is this more of the same interview from yesterday?

[scubajap]

Nope, not buying the beach story as a place to make out -- not for a girl who is being portrayed as pursing sex in a grand manner.

Posted by: ustt | Oct 9, 2005 9:52:48 PM

Well, maybe that is because you haven't been there-for one thing there is a nice little hut with a bench that two people could sit on and make out-and with the sea and the moon on the water it is quite lovely and romantic-
I often go for walks on the beach at night 9with someone I care to be romantic with, preferably)
And one sees many tourists doing the same-sitting on a beach chair, cuddling, smooching, it is the thing to do when on vacation in the islands. You see it everywhere.
Actress Jennifer Tilly was just here for the UltimateBet.com Poker Classic-and during her interview she said she and her boyfriend Phil Laak spent a lot of time taking midnight swims-looking at the stars-cuddling on the beach.
You can find it John Vorhaus' blog at their website.
Don't make assumptions about how people act while here-until you've been here.

[Isanah]

Dompig was just on Fox News. He stated unequivocally that they did NOT search the Van Der Sloots houes at all, only the apartmnet of Joran on the grounds. He said the judge would not grant them permission to search the VDS house, even after the arrest of Paulus.

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 9:55:23 PM

Very interesting Dave. What good is a search warrant in Aruba if it leaves so many stones unturned! Those Arubians certainly have more rights than us, Americans, in the home of the free!

[dave]

I honestly can't understand why the judge wouldn't allow them to search VDS home. That just seems like a no brainer that they should search his home as well.

[frank]

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 10:04:18 PM

Dave, what show and are you sure?

[scubajap]

Dompig was just on Fox News. He stated unequivocally that they did NOT search the Van Der Sloots houes at all, only the apartmnet of Joran on the grounds. He said the judge would not grant them permission to search the VDS house, even after the arrest of Paulus.

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 9:55:23 PM
And v/d Stratten-who conducted the search said they didn't give the house a hard look because the two younger brothers were there the night in question, and so the idea of a gang rape taking place there while the brothers would have heard or witnessed something seems highly unlikely.
Also-Joran was known to bring his girlfriends back to his room-so they searched it very throughly TWICE.

[dave]

It was on Fox, the same show he was on yesterday.

[danie]

Sorry, scubajap, went back and read your previous post regarding your theory to the "lies" on deepak's part and his ability and willingness to only discuss certain matters...thanks for clarification.
In reference to your explanation of v/d stratten and dompig's statements being not in "an official capacity"....would you agree that all of us here are clearly dealing with what is classified as "heresay" only? i believe none of us possess ANY FACTS or proof of EVIDENCE or lack thereof....you have your sources, but those directly related are forbidden to speak about or verify any evidence according to Aruban law (fact, not a criticism); i have held the belief that we are all just speculating about EVERYTHING...due to the law, we have no facts...NONE....do you agree? even the info you are privy to is purely heresay? frustrating, but the law of aruba must be respected.... IMVHO...danie

[Isanah]

I honestly can't understand why the judge wouldn't allow them to search VDS home. That just seems like a no brainer that they should search his home as well.

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 10:04:18 PM

I agree, it isn't like Joran was renting his apartment on the property and didn't have access to the main house! I'm sure there are many Americans that wished they had more say how a search warrant is executed! Gee, last year the local police had planted a video camera in a suspected drug dealers home. Many middle class prominent professionals were snagged with that undercover operation for being dealers and even just the usage of cocaine.

[dave]

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 9:55:23 PM
And v/d Stratten-who conducted the search said they didn't give the house a hard look because the two younger brothers were there the night in question, and so the idea of a gang rape taking place there while the brothers would have heard or witnessed something seems highly unlikely.
Also-Joran was known to bring his girlfriends back to his room-so they searched it very throughly TWICE.

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 9, 2005 10:06:00 PM

There doesn't have to be a gangrape in the house in order for there to be evidence in there. It needed to be search, and that is why the police wanted to search it. Apparently, the judge wouldn't grant them a permit to do so.

[frank]

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 9, 2005 10:06:00 PM

That is unbelievable! Highly unlikely? This whole case is unlikely. Isn't it standard practice to eliminate yourself from suspicion.

Why would Paulus refuse a search?

[ustt]

Don't make assumptions about how people act while here-until you've been here.

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 9, 2005 10:02:20 PM

_________

scuba, i am a girl, i was a wild child, i have lived on islands, and i have been hot to trot. don't tell me not to make assumptions until i've been there, ok?

[frank]

This is beyond belief!

They only have to find evidence that she was there not that she was raped there.

Pathetic.

[bizman12]

Jon,
Get real,she was not kidnapped.she willingly went with the 3 boys.How much more proof do you need?

Why would anyone want to kidnap her?Please dont say to have sex and that she was beautiful.She was cute,in the best picture of her in her senior picture she may have been been a six and a half on a scale of one to ten.There are way more beautiful girls in Aruba that are worthy of a kidnapping if a kidnapping were to take place.Again why would anyone kidnap a person with so many witnesses around.

[frank]

Posted by: ustt | Oct 9, 2005 10:10:17 PM

Right on ustt, it's an arrogant statement. Classic really.

[Isanah]

scuba, i am a girl, i was a wild child, i have lived on islands, and i have been hot to trot. don't tell me not to make assumptions until i've been there, ok?

Posted by: ustt | Oct 9, 2005 10:10:17 PM

I guess you would choose a bed over sex on the beach beneath the stars and listening to the sounds of waves. Not quite as romantic but much more functional. I have no idea what Natalee did or didn't do with Joran that night. Frankly I am through with all the speculation and hoping against hope for some real facts and evidence.

[scubajap]

He said the judge would not grant them permission to search the VDS house, even after the arrest of Paulus.

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 9:55:23 PM
Oh-did Dompig call him "the judge" or you?
I mean-since he isn't a judge.

[bizman12]

As far as only Joran's apartment being searched.Well that is where he lived and that is where he would have taken a girl.

There is no reason for the main house to be searched.What's next?She was taken to the main house so Poppa Sloot could watch or partake.Is someone going to say next that Joran took her home and said look Pop,look what I got.Ridiculous.

If she was on the property she was in Joran's apartment but there is no proof she was ever there except the documents that Jossy supplied to Beth.

How does Beth say about the toothbrush or anyone in Mountain Brook,oh yeah,it is not relevant.Yep that's it the main house is irrelevant.

[dave]

Oh-did Dompig call him "the judge" or you?
I mean-since he isn't a judge.

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 9, 2005 10:16:04 PM

I'm not talking about VanDerSloot, Dompig said that the judge who granted the warrant wouldn't grant them permission to search the house.

[dave]

As far as only Joran's apartment being searched.Well that is where he lived and that is where he would have taken a girl.

There is no reason for the main house to be searched.

------------------------------

You have got to be kidding me. I seriously doubt that Joran lived only inside of that apartment and never bothered to venture inside the main house. There is all types of evidence that could possibly have been there. You guys can spin this anyway you want, but that house should have been searched.

[scubajap]

Did you actually say that Karen Jannsen lied to the court? I mean, I know I don't understand the Ductch legal system but I would think the court would be
very suspect of a prosecutor who lies the them?

Posted by: frank | Oct 9, 2005 10:00:22 PM
Yes, they would be, wouldn't they-BTW-this was all in the local paper AND it was sent to the AP-but they said they weren't going to publish it because it was "too bizarre" now THAT makes me wonder. But it is fact-double and triple checked

[Fish&Chips]

Posted by: frank | Oct 9, 2005 10:11:57 PM

What evidence do you have that she was in the main house. You seem to discount the fact of her being at the beach.

[scubajap]

Why would Paulus refuse a search?

Posted by: frank | Oct 9, 2005 10:09:47 PM

I'm not talking about VanDerSloot, Dompig said that the judge who granted the warrant wouldn't grant them permission to search the house.

Posted by: dave | Oct 9, 2005 10:17:49 PM
Question asked-question answered

[Isanah]

There are way more beautiful girls in Aruba that are worthy of a kidnapping if a kidnapping were to take place.Again why would anyone kidnap a person with so many witnesses around.

Posted by: bizman12 | Oct 9, 2005 10:12:16 PM

I agree to a point with your post. It seems to me if Joran and Co. were in the habit of targeting woman for date rape, they would also choose better methods in selecting a target. It seems a more likely choice would be someone that is alienated from their family and friends, preferably one without financial resources.

[bizman12]

Dave,
Why would there be a need for Joran to take the girl inside the main house?

To say she was ever in the main house is just like saying that Joran brought Poppa a midnight snack.Get real,Joran would not have made a noise at that hour of the night.He surely would not have wanted to wake up Poppa.

[Fish&Chips]

Posted by: scubajap | Oct 9, 2005 10:06:00 PM

The call to search the main house is just BHT venom for PVDS. Need something to justify a warrant. Dompig didn't have it so he couldn't get it.

If the judge had issued a warrant outside the rules then PVDS could have appealed it and got it squashed!!

[dave]

Dave,
Why would there be a need for Joran to take the girl inside the main house?

To say she was ever in the main house is just like saying that Joran brought Poppa a midnight snack.Get real,Joran would not have made a noise at that hour of the night.He surely would not have wanted to wake up Poppa.

Posted by: bizman12 | Oct 9, 2005 10:24:54 PM

Listen, she wouldn't have to be inside of the main house for their to be evidence there. Hell, even if there is a possibility she was there, then they should still check it. It doesn't make sense to me how they can take his parents cars and search them, but not search inside his parents house.

[bizman12]

Isanah,
Usually victims of kidnap are taken when no one is looking.Regardless of the financial resources that a family may have.The key to a kidnapping is taking a person while no one is looking or at the very least where the kidnapper cannot be identified.In this instance a kidnapping is not likely

[islandamethyst]

Was there a report somewhere about LE confiscating Mrs. van der Sloot's camera and computer? If this is so, did the LE take those from Joran's apt?

[Texasnurse]

bizman12

HE HE HE thanks! I am happay that you did not take my post as a flame cause it certainly was not a flame!
I really do like your time line and it pretty much corresponds to some other time lines that I have seen!

I am more inclined to believe Joran and the MB kids and what they have said more than what Beth is jaw jacking about!

I have several different theories as to what may have happened to Natalee and they are based on one of Natalee's male classmates who stated in an interview early in the investigation that he saw Natalee back at the hotel after she had been with Joran! Either this MB kids story is credible or he is a lier and we have to discount or discredit his story!

I think that after she and Joran parted company at the beach, that she went back to the hotel and she either met up with another ticked off female friend or two who also wanted to be with Joran that night and she/they may have did something to Natalee or she had an encounter with a secret boyfriend and several of his friends who she had broke up with a day or so before and he/they did something to Natalee!

There is a very high possibility that Natalee did get back to the hotel and went to one or more of the private parties in the hotel that was occurring in the other MB kids hotel rooms!
Natalee may have simply died as a result of acute alcohol poisoning or a drug overdose or a alcohol/drug reaction and sevearl of Natalee's classmates and maybe a chaperone or two simply panicked and they removed the body and buried her in a deserted area that has not been searched yet!
One of these theories are the most logical to me as to what most likely happened to Natalee and why all we hear from the MB kids at this time is awhole lot of Nothing!
I will state that I attend classes with several of Natalee's friends at the Univ of Alabama and we are classmates in several classes and if Natalee were there I would most likely would be having a few classes with her as well.
I also chat with a few other MB kids in popular chatrooms who attend different colleges!
These kids have stated a few things and they have stated that when things chill down a little bit more they will tell more.

Several of the MB kids are laughing at Beth behind her back at the statements that she is making and they are shaking their heads in disbelief at the things that Beth is telling and trying to do!

I am always open to new theories!

[dave]

Listen, I think any reasonable person knows the VDS house needed to be searched. Obviously the police felt there was a good reason to try and search there. Believe me, in a case like this, you need to cover all of your bases and leave no stone unturned.

[bizman12]

Dave,
The vehicles were taken because Joran may have used one of them to transport the girl.Of course no evidence of Natalee was found in the cars.The cops just cant go around searching without reason.And commonsense prevails and anyone with any commonsense would know that teenagers do not go near their parents when they are sneaking a girl in.In this case he had his own apartment and that is the only place that warranted a search.

[dave]

Dave,
The vehicles were taken because Joran may have used one of them to transport the girl.Of course no evidence of Natalee was found in the cars.The cops just cant go around searching without reason.And commonsense prevails and anyone with any commonsense would know that teenagers do not go near their parents when they are sneaking a girl in.In this case he had his own apartment and that is the only place that warranted a search.

Posted by: bizman12 | Oct 9, 2005 10:33:44 PM

I don't see what is so difficult to get about this. There could easily be forensic evidence inside the Van Der Sloot home even if Natalee never went in there. There is every bit as much of a reason to think there might be forensic evidence in that car as there is in the house.

[Texasnurse]

Bizman12

I really like your final comment in your post;
"something bad happens there,everyone scrams and gets the hell out of there and to the airpost and back home and very little to come out of Mountain Brook since"

HEHEHE....but you are 100 percent correct with your comment and this is exactly what has happened! And that aint no Bull Snot!!! That's a fact!!

[bizman12]

Texasnurse,
Are you a nurse or do you aspire to be one.Just curious as to why a nurse would be attending classes with friends of Natalee

I bet the kids are laughing at Beth behind her back.They know the real Natalee,not the saint.

[Isanah]

In this instance a kidnapping is not likely

Posted by: bizman12 | Oct 9, 2005 10:28:31 PM

I agree, I was also commenting that it doesn't seem that Natalee would also be targeted for a date rape. She was too visible and had to many friends around. JMO, that if that was Joran's attention, to carry out a date rape, there probably were woman who would have been less risky to target.