Natalee Holloway: Clearing Up Details

As I don't particularly know Aruba, I'm not defending anyone leaving someone else alone on a beach at night. But one thing is strange to me. There were many visitors that night because of the music festival - some attendees came by boat. It's my understanding that there were often people around the beaches at night in Aruba, even without a large concert.

Not sure what that all adds up to, but along with that, here's an image taken from infront of the fisherman's hut area looking south toward Natalee's hotel. Hopefully it'll provide some perspective, if nothing else.

Also, if this was their last destination from a car ride which went to the lighthouse - it seems odd they would have stopped so close to the hotel to be alone, unless the plan was for Natalee to return there at the end of their time together. It looks like the closest location to have some time alone without actually going back to the room itself - assuming there was no one there. Any closer and the beach becomes more public.

Comments

[Bigfish]

Thank you Dan!

Bigfish

[roy]

your observation about that being the closest place to have some time alone is correct.

[frank]

Dompig: Once these guys were set free, we feel that people who probably know something feel compelled to come forward. These tips and leads continue to come in. Some of these leads are very interesting. We feel that these same three boys remain very interesting to us.

Reporter: Do you think that Natalee Holloway is dead and one or more of these three suspects are involved in it?

Dompig: Well, of course you don’t know, that is what investigating is all about. You have to assume that there was some foul play. We never stopped looking for the live Natalee. Although those efforts were kinda on a back burner.

Reporter: Do you think you have your man in one or all three of them?

Dompig: Yes, let me say this. Basic thumb rule says that in the first forty days of your investigation you probably have talked to the perps. We feel that we have talked to them.

[GrannyToad]

It seems that Karin Janssen has stopped sifting sand there. Here's that other perspective: http://thepoliticalteen.net/images/bevlarge.jpg

[frank]

Posted by: roy | Oct 9, 2005 4:19:50 PM

No corroborating evidence that Joran or Natalee were ever there other than Joran's word.

[HenriLaFleur]

Have stayed on Palm beach twice. There is a boardwalk that runs along the beach behind the hotels. Activity along the beach at night is brisk. There are security guards all along the walk, presumably from the hotels. The police have a substation I think next to the Hyatt/Allergo which is just down the beach from the HI.

[bmt]

I always thought it was further away than that...that is a walkable distance.

[GrannyToad]

When did Natalee ever leave the van der Sloot place anyway? What beach if any, ever? Why would Joran need sharks in his story?

[HenriLaFleur]

Hey frankfurter, how do you know there is corroborating evidence?? Do you have access to the evidence? BTW, there is such evidence. The brothers support Joran in that account. Tell me this cite me evidence that refutes Joran/brothers statements that NH and JVS were left in that area?

[GAmom]

Good post Dan. If Joran left Natalee on the beach alone I can see where it would have been possible for someone in a boat to take her for whatever reason. And that may be what actually happened. I've tried but I just can't buy the story of leaving her on the beach. If he did, then why make up the lie and why include Depak and Satish in the lie. Joran said that Depak and Satish left him and Natalee at the beach. Why would he make up a lie that places them back with him. Why would the brothers, not just one but both, agree to to become part of the lie when they were at home and not involved. There was no reason for Joran to lie unless he did rape her. Then if someone took her after he left her on the beach he might want to lie because if she showed up she might accuse him of rape. Possible, but Joran says sex was consensual or that there was no sex, so there wouldn't be anything to cover up and no need to lie. Bottom line is that Joran, and the brothers still have not told us everything about that night.

[complex brian]

yeah theres no way to prove they ever were actually on the beach that night and i tend to believe that the beach story is a lot of smoke and mirrors. however, if they in fact were on the beach, natalee's hotel was a lot closer than i imagined it to be. so one could argue thats why joran felt justified to leave her on the beach by herself, but at the same time, another could argue that if they were so close to her hotel room why not go there? or is that because she suspected her roommates were already back at her hotel? so many unanswered questions.

[HenriLaFleur]

BTW, when we stayed at the Allergo, we could see the California lighthouse from our room. The fisherman's huts are prolly a mile from the HI. Huts are inbetween HI and lighthouse.

[roy]

When did Natalee ever leave the van der Sloot place anyway? What beach if any, ever? Why would Joran need sharks in his story?

Posted by: GrannyToad | Oct 9, 2005 4:35:47 PM

why don't you anser your questions.

[roy]

Posted by: roy | Oct 9, 2005 4:19:50 PM

No corroborating evidence that Joran or Natalee were ever there other than Joran's word.

Posted by: frank | Oct 9, 2005 4:29:26 PM

I never stated they were.

[complex brian]

dan,

correct me if im wrong but you seem to have been hinting at the boat theory a lot lately which is something i kicked around very early on in the investigation and was pretty much mocked for even throwing that idea out. i guess my question to you is, where do you go from here? and whats likely the most probable motivation for someone to have taken her by boat? for the same reasons jvds and the kalpoes were suspected of?

[GrannyToad]

Out nearer the lighthouse. http://donwiss.com/pictures/AUA-2005/h0007.htm

[swhiteyo]

i really don't understand this thinking. dk admitted that ALL three had sex with natalie! i can't for the life of me believe that natalie had consenual sex with three guys. also, why would they have to lie about the night in question if they were innocent? i have been to aruba and i wouldn't want my 17 yr. old daughter walking from the fisherman's hut to the HI (which is where we stayed during our vacation just 2 weeks prior to natalie's disappearance). just doesn't make sense what dan is trying to do to beth and jug's decisions surrounding their daughter's disappearance. i would have done the same to get the fbi involved in this asap just like beth did.

[HenriLaFleur]

swhite: Just where has it been established factually that DK said they all had sex with her?

[Isanah]

dan,

correct me if im wrong but you seem to have been hinting at the boat theory a lot lately which is something i kicked around very early on in the investigation and was pretty much mocked for even throwing that idea out. i guess my question to you is, where do you go from here? and whats likely the most probable motivation for someone to have taken her by boat? for the same reasons jvds and the kalpoes were suspected of?

Posted by: complex brian | Oct 9, 2005 4:52:29 PM

You have many supporters about a possible abduction done by someone with a boat in the area. It is just that so many of the posters here refuse to see the "forest beyond the trees".

[frank]

Posted by: roy | Oct 9, 2005 4:19:50 PM

Who said I was referring to you?

Posted by: HenriLaFleur | Oct 9, 2005 4:36:08 PM

Your not making sense, I said there is no corroborating evidence they were there. Do you know of any? I'm speaking about the beach.

[swhiteyo]

dk admitted that all three had sex with natalie to the guy that was going to give him a polygraph test. he was asked if he had sex with natalie and he stated, "yes, we all had sex with natalie, me, joran and satish"...let me see if i can find an internet link. i saw this on fox news. you could clearly see dk and the polygrapher during this video. the polygrapher told dk flat out that if he was guilty of bringing harm to natalie, he shouldn't take the test. if he was innocent, he shouldn't take the test. it was pretty interesting.

[swhiteyo]

there is the link...

[frank]

Posted by: HenriLaFleur | Oct 9, 2005 5:02:20 PM

Just where has it been established that Joran ever was at the beach? (to sort of use your question)

[HenriLaFleur]

the three all say thats where JVS and NH were dropped off. the timeline as established by the phone calls/text msgs support as well

[Katherine]

The police will clear up this crime, no problem. I know Natalee's cousin.

[frank]

Posted by: HenriLaFleur | Oct 9, 2005 5:11:50 PM

And in finding what happened they decided to withhold this story for awhile, even though it would have certainly helped police gather evidence from the beach site for what 10 days?

Any idea why they waited to come up with the second story? They also said they dropped her at the hotel, but why does that story have less credibility?

[swhiteyo]

hmmm, my link didn't get in there. let me try again. if i don't get it in there this time, just google deepak kalpoe polygraph interview and it will lead you right there to the video. it was on fox with greta.

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/10/05/bethongreta100505/

the link...

[HenriLaFleur]

frank:
read dan's first article in his series. you have made your mind up without having all the facts. Im not saying the boys are innocent; Im just not willing to speculate about facts that I dont have, and neither do you. frankly frank you bore me. good day

[frank]

Im just not willing to speculate about facts that I dont have, and neither do you. frankly frank you bore me. good day

Posted by: HenriLaFleur | Oct 9, 2005 5:23:11 PM

You're right, I don't have facts that I don't have. I'm just speculating on lies I know to be lies.

[usmcmom]

Posted by: swhiteyo | Oct 9, 2005 4:56:04 PM

Can you estimate in distance how far it is from the fisherman's hut area to the HI? Dan's picture looks like it maybe a little bit more than a 1/4 mile, but Granny's link looks to make it longer. I'm just curious if anyone can tell us how far along the waterfront the actual distance is between these two locations, and is there any lighting along the waterfront that shines on the beachfront at night.

[truthbetold]

When did Natalee ever leave the van der Sloot place anyway? What beach if any, ever? Why would Joran need sharks in his story?

Posted by: GrannyToad | Oct 9, 2005 4:35:47 PM

you never learn do you? just because beth says so doesn't make it true...you have no proof natalee was ever at jorans besides beth's screaming monkey theory and her fake confessions

[icey]

All three are confirmed and documented liars. When do you start believing anything they have said or continue to say?

For the sake of argument, I say we believe anything they say that seems very odd or very incriminating. So pick the worst of the storys and rumored storys and you have the:

1) "we all had sex with her"
2) "she was in and out of consiousness"
3) "we dropped her and jvds off at his house"
4) "they were seen in depaks car at 3am by the raquet club" (sworn and legal testimony to a judge and 2 of the 3 picked out in a line up.)
5) mama k2 now states that her boys were not home until perhaps 3am.
6) the 3 lied about the HI, and the wrongly fingered the 2 guards. This was admitted by the 3.
7) "something bad happened"
8) The various cell calls and messaging that night between 2 and 6am.

I'm not saying any of the 3 are murders, but I believe they know what happened to natalee! (OD'ed. died, killed, drowned, raped, kidnapped, buried or dropped in the ocean).

There is no way that all 3 are clueless as to what happened to Natalee that night or were she is currently, either dead or alive.

ALE, Find a way to charge and convict one or more of these punks for whatever charge you can think of that will stick (anything will do). Then merely drop them into the jails general population for a final interrogation. Also, perhaps formal charges should be brought against some of the establishments that allowed underage drinking and gambling. Is'nt it illegal for a 17yo to gamble or buy hard liquor on the island?

icey

[GrannyToad]

Can you estimate in distance how far it is from the fisherman's hut area to the HI?
Posted by: usmcmom | Oct 9, 2005 5:46:52 PM

Around a mile.

[Splat]

Depth of Field aka F-stop in fortography is critical. We need a foot count the walk from where the snap was taken and a real life scenario illustrating this distance.

Corner store walk, hike, trek, long enough walk to wear off your drunkedness by design.

Pleased to see Granny qualifying everything now, 'seems', 'assume' ... lotsa lotsa

Dun worry dear, when all is said and done, I hope the grace you have shown through out this will allow for you to apologise for your incessant and misguided targetting of three innocent kids and then directing it to the real perp, one cracker crazy money grubbing arkansas how to get a better life at all costs life biatch

:..undecided...could be...)...or...(

[Biazman]

The HI is no more than a 20 minute walk (if that)from the Fisherman's Hut beach area.It is however about a mile and a half,no more than 2 miles to take the road by car from the HI to the Fisherman's Hut beach area due to the way the roads are laid out.There is sufficient lighting along the way and yes there are folks on the beach all hours of the night due to the fact that either a person stays in their room,goes to the casino,goes to the pool area or just walk the beach.Not much else to do in Aruba at that hour of the night.As was the case on the night Natalee went missing,Carlos N Charlies had already closed as had the other bars.The casino is about the only place to get drinks at that hour of the morning.

It is definitely possible that she walked back to the HI encountering no problems at all,in fact the beach is patrolled by motor vehicle (pick-up truck)with at least two officers in each truck as I encountered a police vehicle on the beach area at the HI at around 1:30 in the morning and there were 4 police officers in the truck.They were just driving on the beach with the left tires of the vehicle being splashed with the low wave of water at that hour.

There were not hundreds of people out at that hour but at least 50 or so were within the grounds of the HI.

Back to the Fisherman's Hut area,it is less than a 5 minute walk from that area to the Marriott Casino.She could have gone there but more than likely she went to the HI.\

Did I read correctly that another one of the Mountain Brook girls was also fond of Joran and that Natalee ending up getting with Joran.HMMMMM,might have pissed the other girl off,maybe even pissed enough to confront her on her return to the HI.It is not a stretch to think that a girl could have harmed Natalee and disposed of her body in a dumpster maybe even with the help of another girl.They sure are quite for some reason.

Bottom line is the MB kids needs to be eliminated as suspects as do the family.Only then can a rush to judgement towards Joran and the Kalpoe's commence as hastily as it has.

[DrTar&ProFeather]

Thank you, Biazman, for that thinking outside the box! I don't think I have ever read any other theory that another girl may have brought harm to Natalee. That is very interesting, and certainly possible. There is nothing worse, or more wicked, than a woman scorned and drunk to boot. I am not saying I believe it to be the answer, but hey, it's as good of a guess as what I've been reading here for months!

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Dan says, "Also, if this was their last destination from a car ride which went to the lighthouse - it seems odd"
-------------------

Whether it odd or not is irrelevant. Most crimes involve "odd" behavior of some sort. AND people do "ODD" things now and then. This characteristic has no bearing on the matter.

Similarly, the whole statement is a "conditional" one beginning with an "if" -- which, as some commenters pointed, is a BIG "IF" -- that only comes from the inconsistent statements of self professed, counter accusing, proven LIARS.

There is, therefore, absolutely no basis in credibility theory for belief of any of it, let alone its usage as a basis for determination of the likelihood of certain events!

So when and WHERE would they have had the sex with Natalee? (references below here and by other commenters). Just before leaving her at the beach? At the lighthouse?? Or there ON that beach?

None of THAT makes ANY sense.
And, as Frank correctly pointed out:

"No corroborating evidence that Joran or Natalee were ever there other than Joran's word."

Posted by: frank | Oct 9, 2005 4:29:26 PM
---------------------------------------------

AND no corroborating evidence that Joran or Natalee were ever at the Lighthouse.

Liars cannot verify each other's stories when they have already refuted them in various ways.

--------------
swhiteyo has a similar point:

"i really don't understand this thinking. dk admitted that ALL three had sex with natalie! i can't for the life of me believe that natalie had consenual sex with three guys. also, why would they have to lie about the night in question if they were innocent?
Posted by: swhiteyo | Oct 9, 2005 5:07:18 PM
........

So I say --> IF Natalee was left at the beach, the scenario that fits better with ALL that is KNOWN, is that it was AFTER all had sex with her (at J's home most likely) and she was going in and out of consciousness, needing to be carried, as Joran stated freely in the Curr. Aff. interview. So he could honestly say, "I left her at the beach," without telling THE WHOLE STORY (which he'll tell, "SOMEDAY!") that they buried her and came back later and took her out to the ocean for the "no body, no case" plan to work!
------------------------------------

Joran's MOM?

She told Greta early on that, "Joran told me everything that happened." (that's when the story was that they let NH off at HolIiday Inn). NOW JVDS mom says, "He left her at the beach."

Which is it then?
At the lighthouse, the hotel, Oh, the beach now?
How did he leave her?
What condition?
Edge of beach?
By a beach cliff?
In the beach water?
Beach cave?
Under beach sand?
With a beach bum???
A beach party???
A beach boat???

------------------------------------

It's interesting how LITTLE has changed in 3 months! So I will not debate it anymore...
...

To see the full "FICTIONAL STORY"
Refer to my "imagined scenario" here:
--------
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | July 15, 2005 02:35 PM
UNDER COMMENTS (scroll down to 2:35pm) at
Dan's post --> "Patience Stinks" here:
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/patience_stinks.html#comment-7374342

For answers to some of life's issues just click below
................... V V

[iquitos]

Mountain Brook student on Scared Monkeys early on for what it is worth (paraphrased from memory): "There were students all over that beach that night" This student was also on TV with the male student who recalled Joran hanging around the Holiday Inn

[J]

Katherine, I didn't understand your comment that the police would solve this and you know Natalee's cousin-please explain what all you meant by that. Thanks!

[W]

Thanks, Dan, what an excellent post. You have been doing a great job here, and I'm grateful for it. There is not one shred of evidence implicating these three young men, and Beth Twitty is completely out of control with her grief-driven statements. I feel she is absolutely self-destructing and her statements are wilder by the day.

[bmt]

Where was the concert? and where were the boats pulled up?

[Shell]

Great insights Dan! I agree with you, W, that Dan is a voice crying in the wilderness. He is one of the few level-headed, analysts, with his heart in the right place, and his head clear enough to see what's important.

[scubajap]

the link...

Posted by: swhiteyo | Oct 9, 2005 5:19:51 PM

ok - here is a link so you can listen to what he ACTUALLY said
http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09/15/slut/
And NO WHERE does he actually say this sentance:
asked if he had sex with natalie and he stated, "yes, we all had sex with natalie, me, joran and satish"...

All he says are the words "she did"
try listening to what HE actually said, not what others say he said.

Here is a new word game-how many ways do you think it is possible to elicite the words "she did" from an innocent question? or "it was simple"?
Don't just hear what you WANT to hear-listen to the actual tape.

[scubajap]

Granny's picture is taken from much, much further up the coast-it isn't even a beach.
This picture in Dan's article is the area where they brought Joran several times to go over his testimony. This is where it is reported to drop them. about a quarter mile is accurate. The Marriott is even closer.

[scubajap]

Around a mile.

Posted by: GrannyToad | Oct 9, 2005 6:15:40 PM
Much less-10 minute walk-tops

[GAmom]

Also, if this was their last destination from a car ride which went to the lighthouse - it seems odd they would have stopped so close to the hotel to be alone, unless the plan was for Natalee to return there at the end of their time together.

Dan, are you now saying or thinking that they went straight from C&C's to the lighthouse and then the beach. If so, then Natalee and Joran spent a lot of time at the beach and Depak and Satish were home early unless they went somewhere else after they dropped Joran and Natalee off at the beach.

Also, has it been verified that they actually went to the light house. I remember that Natalee thought she was going to the lighthouse because that was in the msn before we ever knew Joran's name. Some MB kids said she left with a boy to go see the light house. I also remember a male student on tv saying that Natalee said something to him about going to see some sharks. Why would Joran offer to take Natalee to the light house if he new Depak's car was too low to make it to the light house? Also, remember Depak's mother talking about how ticky he was about his car and that he didn't even drive it to work. Now I could be wrong but that's the way I remember it. If so that sounds like Natalee was misled by Joran. I know that some MB kids said that they passed them on the way back to the HI and were heading toward the California Lighthouse, but I think you can get to Joran's house that way also. And it can't be to far since he walked home that night.

[swhiteyo]

Shell / W / Dan - i think you are all grasping at straws. Beth Twitty is doing what she needs to do to keep this case in the spotlight. What better way than Fox News? Keeping the case alive is all Beth can do to get justice for her beautiful daughter.

Just explain one thing... why lie?

"I never lie because I do not fear anyone. You only lie when you are afraid." - John Gotti

[Jon]

In my opinion, if they ever took Natalee to the Marriott beach, it was because it is a logical post-rape dumping ground for a drugged, unconscious victim. The plan would have been to leave her there to sleep it off, and she could walk back to her hotel when she woke up. Except, something went wrong and she died there.

However, it's equally likely that she died somewhere else and they were never on the Marriott beach at all.

[SL]

NH is buried in the land dump. Joran, et al, helped. Thend.

SL

[DrTar&ProFeather]

Thanks Scubajap, for the excellent info. I listened to the Skeeters tape just now, and I was amazed at the different sounds in the background, signaling to me that parts were left out, and some free cutting and splicing going on. And one other thing: isn't any one curious at all about the really poor quality of the tape?

The word that comes to mind is inuendo. Someone has cleverly tricked people into thinking what ever they want them to think...like leading a bull by the nose ring.

And oh yes, we are all experts here, aren't we? Living here in the states, most of us not even setting foot on Aruba. And we believe what we want if if fits our preconceived notion that is.

Keep putting up with us, Scuba! Some of us really do appreciate your hard work.