Natalee Holloway: Why Joran Van Der Sloot Is Guilty

This is part three in an ongoing series. See links to Part one Natalee Holloway And Cable News: A Season Of Fraud and Part two - The Cover Up Begins In Mountain Brook.

Why Joran Van Der Sloot Is Guilty - or, more precisely, why do so many think he is guilty when there is no evidence he committed a crime?

Jossy Mansur was named in a leaked top secret report from Dutch intelligence services linking him to smuggling and, in essence, organized crime. While it's my understanding he may have distanced himself over time from any potential linkage the report inferred, it does not mean his credibilty can't be questioned on that score, or that he ever forgave the Dutch for the secret report having been leaked.

In August 1994, the United States indicted cousins Eric and Alex Mansur along with 52 others allegedly involved in a massive drug money-laundering enterprise.

Jossy Mansur is the owner and chief editor of the biggest newspaper on the island, "Diario". ... "Jossy Mansur is not impressed claiming that accusing people of drug trafficking and money laundering ""has become a political tool to discredit them”." Alex and Eric Mansur were indicted in Puerto Rico in August 1994. (77) President Clinton specifically mentioned the Mansur's when he put Aruba on the list of Major Illicit Drug-transit Countries in December 1996. Although no member of the family was actually indicted in the La Costa case,...

My point in linking to the Mansur stories here is not to accuse him of anything, specifically - but to point out that this is a man with a long history of animosity toward the Dutch, of involvement in the island's politics and, in particular, animosity toward the Dutch Justice Ministry. The very ministry in which Paulus Van Der Sloot played a relatively minor role - but a role nonetheless.

From Rita Cosby:

Police say in this allegedly authentic document that Joran said he left Natalee Holloway asleep on the beach and then left. And then he said he feels that Deepak Kalpoe raped and killed Natalee, then buried her in that area. We haven‘t seen the document. That is what the paper says they have printed in today‘s edition.

The allegedly authentic statements which form the basis of most all significant accusations against Joran Van Der Sloot by Beth Twitty, if real at all, were most likely obtained, by definition, inappropriately, possibly even illegally through corruption within the Aruban police force. They should have never been released. One source on Aruba informed me months ago that Jossy Mansur allegedly had inappropriate access to the entire police file.

If you read any written account of these documents in the MSM you will note the word alleged used through out. Great, their lawyers earned their money and protected the network, but that didn't stop them from allowing these documents to frame what are baseless allegations hurled by a distraught Mother against three young men for a period of months.

As a little common sense, along with asking a few questions revealed the nature of these documents to me, a lowly web logger with a telephone - it is entirely inexcusable that alleged news organizations have allowed this outright fraud to continue as they have.

It is the worst kind of exploitation of the label journalist, as well as an exploitation of a Mother grasping at straws. Any responsible, genuinely caring human being, let alone a journalist, should have felt compelled to force her to accept the truth. Instead, they have allowed her to diminish her credibility, likely beyond repair - and foster within her false notions of hope for a prosecution which will likely never materialize with no real evidence at hand.

In any case, none of the documents are fully legitimate, or evidence for a court. Some may have been manufactured out of whole cloth for all we know. At best they are interrogation tools, which explains why some are said to be signed by the detectives, though none are signed by Joran himself. IN fact, it's unknown if any of these alleged documents were legitimately signed by anyone.

Supposedly, interrogators fashioned scenarios and cross examined the suspect for hours trying to get him to confess to different versions of the crime - he did it - Deepak did it - we did it at the house, or on the beach, she was unconscious, this happened in the car, etc. Who knows? Each one was typed up or written, some perhaps signed by interrogators, and placed in front of a 17 year old boy to sign after hours of intense interrogation so everyone could go home.

But he never signed one! Perhaps because no version was true? Well, that can't be true. After all, we know he has lied before to make it sound like he wasn't a cad who left a girl on a beach - so he said he dropped her at the hotel. That's a lie about as significant as the responsible drinking theme we've been hearing from the Mountain Brook students all along. And for precisely the same reasons. It's known that Natalee was drunk and willingly went off with the boy. What Joran Van Der Sloot did is called saving face, not conspiracy.

But the nature of the statements mentioned above didn't stop someone from furnishing them to Beth so that they could be trumpeted nightly on cable TV as the actual statements of the boy. If this were all taking place in America they should prosecute it as pure fraud. One wonders if some have lost all sense of genuine justice in following this case. And that's a bigger shame than the loss of any one person, no matter how dear she might be.

Never in my life have I been so disappointed in American media and so many Americans as a whole, as well. They have gone on about conspiracies, slandered three young men for months with no evidence to support their accusations - and the entire story which they have used to do it is mostly a fabrication of one individual - Jossy Mansur. Curiously, the Mansur family even has an old and likely irrelevant distant relationship with Jug Twitty himself.

Not only did Mansur have all the motivation in the world to try and embarrass the Dutch authorities to hurt their chances in a pending election that eventually saw his side trounced, he may also have wanted to extract revenge through a Dutch family, the Father of which was a minor player in the justice ministry, as said ministry previously took the unprecedented step of allowing the extradition of members of the Mansur family to a United States jurisdiction. A grudge some say he has never gotten over. And that doesn't even go into a prime piece of Palm Beach, Aruban real estate Mansur coveted for development that the government wouldn't approve.

Yet this is the one individual upon which the whole story depends? Cable News seems to have forgotten the meaning of the words motivation and credibility when it comes to a source that can drive their ratings.

He began a whispering campaign long before the glare of the media spotlight hit the island. From the very first press conferences there he was telling the story to anyone who would listen - including journalists, family members and friends he conveniently managed to wind up next to at many events.

Joran made and sold a child porno tape, Joran bragged about drugging young girls, Joran has an anger management problem, Joran was in the casino's every night, his Father, too, he's done this to other girls, on and on it went and Fox and the other networks loved it so much they finally put a man who can't legally enter the States on the air as the most credible journalist and source on the island. Of course, everyone in Aruba knows Diario is a tabloid capable of printing almost anything. But a vast part of America bought the nonsense hook, line and sinker, particularly as it was fed to them through our own cable news outlets.

I've spoken with several responsible American journalists working for reputable American publications who tried to run those rumors down and in every case they failed before giving up on the story. There was simply nothing there. But that didn't stop the rumors from playing their part in what was to become a sort of perfect storm.

It allowed Beth to completely preserve the virtue of her missing daughter above and beyond anything she needed to as Natalee had nothing to hide. She was an average girl of eighteen - with all its obvious social implications. For the media it drove tremendous ratings - and all the while one man possibly played this country like a con artist extraordinaire and it continues right up until today. If his motivations weren't so questionable, he'd deserve to pride himself for playing so skillfully on America's arrogance and our media's ignorance and greed.

Several local Arubans were questioned early in the case - but why bother talking about that? No, that couldn't be pertinent at all. Let's just hang the Dutch kid and two Surinamese brothers because one man feeding information to an emotionally wired, micro-phoned Mother says it's so. And if the source was any more credible, hell, he might even be allowed into the United States.

Were you ever told that the so-called Gardner that saw the boys at the pond is said to have worked for Eduardo Mansur? Of course not. Were you told that the fellow who supposedly started the jailhouse fight with Deepak Kalpoe that led to an outburst much reported in the news is alleged to be a Mansur doing time on a firearms charge? That what he is alleged to have said to him was, "I know what you did last summer." Nope, we didn't hear that reported from the top notch journalists working for cable news, either. But let's talk more about that pond - the one Jossy led us to which riveted you to the TV set for a few days and nights.

Did you know that there are environmental scientists who previously claimed it couldn't ever be drained because of the strong flow from a spring? Or that they said that when it's draining was proposed for a hotel project - that was protested to retain the significant environmental feature for the island? Yet, on the word of a would be gardner who couldn't seem to make it into court, Jossy, also one of the island's richest business men, by the way, got it drained. Well, he tried to, anyway - at least until reality proved the environmentalists right.

Oh, but that was to find Natalee, I forgot. Just ask the Mansur Gardner. LOL Better be careful though - maybe he'll try to sell you a bridge next. After all, many Americans and the media seemed to buy just about everything else he sold us. What a shame some prosperous business person won't make a little more money on a new hotel and casino because the pond didn't stay dry. Aruba can always use another hotel, don't you think? Apparently someone does. It's just not apparent that any of their motivation comes from a sincere desire to find a still missing girl.

But don't think about the pond anymore - as soon as that fiasco was finished, he produced another witness who led everyone to the dump. And this is the man whose credibility is behind every accusation Beth Twitty, cable news and some shrinking number of die hard Americans want to hurl? That is surreal.

The Twitty family went into Aruba determined to find Natalee. Unfortunately, it's very possible that given their know-it-all approach they eventually all but forced the Aruban authorities to move only in the direction of the three boys. And the authorities, aided by the likes of Mansur actually tried incredibly hard to build a case against them. Only a fool believes that any tourist island would put any three members of their population above the greater value of their entire tourist industry.

Yes, Beth Twitty drove the story AND the investigation because the last thing Aruba wanted was a public relations nightmare. But despite that co-operation they were still vilified in the media every night. I'm sure the dwindling Beth Twitty fans don't want to hear it, but the reality is that her decision to act as a one man police department and prosecutor with a microphone, as opposed to the grieving Mother she perhaps might have, could turn out to be the most significant detriment to what might have been, or still might be a successful investigation in the end.

The facts are that with a ton of money on the street in reward, months of high pressure interrogations and arrests and re-arrests of the suspects, ALE hasn't been able to find one shred of evidence. Still, on the urgings of one distraught Mother and the ratings chasing cable news outlets, no one is supposed to look in any other direction than the three boys. It's almost impossible to conclude that given the months of pressure with nothing shaking loose that they had anything to do with her disappearance at all. Yet, even I am not willing to say they are innocent. But someone with some sense at least needs to begin to look in another direction.

Sadly, the Twittys were quite possibly played like bereaved bumpkins by someone who saw them coming a mile away. If a low or mid-level drug dealer was involved in Natalee's disappearance, it wouldn't be the Dutch directing any cover up. It would more likely be individuals at least at one time linked to the type of corruption that can produce police reports and suspect statements out of thin air. Ironic, but that's precisely like the one person the family has been allowing to lead them around by the nose. But what the hell, one more cable news appearance can't hurt, can it?

So, let's summarize: we don't have any right to hear from the kids from Mountain Brook who might know what other locals, or what low or mid-level drug dealer or dealers they or even Natalee might have become acquainted with during the week at some club, even if they never purchased anything. Perhaps one she might have run into on her stroll back from the beach to her hotel? Was it perhaps some mysterious blue-eyed non- stranger who convinced her to go to just that one last party or rave before catching her plane in the morning? Her behavior that night suggests she might have at least been open to an invite coming from a recognizable face without realizing what she was in for.

But we can't even guess at that because 110 witnesses who knew the most of the comings and goings of the week left the island and didn't come back. And on top of that they were all but compelled to keep any possible pertinent details to themselves. And reports from parents in Mountain Brook don't instill great confidence in the coordination with the FBI.

Natalee's own Father didn't know everyone who was even on the trip, including other Twitty family members, until just recently. Isn't that taking being discreet just a little bit beyond the norm?

People have accused me of taking sides in this fiasco - it doesn't have any sides for me. There is only one side and that's Natalee's as defined by the truth of what happened to her. Nonsense won't help find Natalee. Nothing but the truth will do that. And unfortunately, Mountain Brook has shown no regard for it, as I wrote previously, Mountain Brook decided to cover up pertinent details of the trip early on.

Maybe it's easier living in the world you want to think you live in, as opposed to the one that's real. And I suppose you can always blame someone else for your ignorance - especially if they can't defend themselves because of the justice system. But this case is America's disgrace, not her shining moment of resolve.

There is nothing professional, ethical or noble in what is taking place on our cable news networks in this regard any more. And that should feel incredibly sad as well as dangerous to every American with any genuine sense of justice, or a genuinely serious concern for an all too young to be missing, missing girl.

This post is also available at Blogger News Network.

Comments

[gemebwai]

Ok DAN, I'm glad finally the call for other angles has been made so eleborately (I've been saying for months we need to look at other angles).

[7thson]

Right on Dan, bravo

[sensible]

Thanks, Dan.

[islandamethyst]

BTW
Is anyone emailing Anchor with updates?

[RICK]

Dogs have fleas? Never go out with a woman who sleeps with her dog, dog!!!!

[kyle]

the way i see it is like this. If Jossy paid them for the information then so be it. Fine with me because how the hell else are we going to get it. He knows they are backwards there and he knows a rational person is entitled to know whats happening.

Understand?

[Sweetie]

the 3 are
guilty, is only about finding out what they are guilty of.
The proof for me is in the lie and one missing Natalee Holloway.

Exactly, thank you.

[Gabe]

Dan,

Thank you for the courage to take an unpopular view
because it is the logical deduction.

I always found Beth Twitty "too way over the top"
to be believed. There is no question the she, abetted
by her advisors, turned the investigation in the direction
that she personally chose. If the man hours spent in
Aruba following Beth Twitty's allegations had been
spent on genuine investigation, there may have been a
very different conclusion. It could have been the very
conclusion that Twitty so desperately wants. Beth is
so furious over the Van Der Sloots attempt to start
a new life when it is the very thing that Beth should be
doing. Is there no one who loves her enough to help her?

There is a big story behind the gates of Mountain Brook.
That is why I think that Beth has been the unfortunate
dupe of those people who do not wish to have the Mountain
Brook laundry discussed, much less hung out to dry.

[kyle]

Dan, Ill email you once the boys are found guilty.

[RJ]

Abrams seems to be asking more direct questions of the TwittysPosted by: Isanah | Oct 13, 2005 2:16:13 AM

I tought that myself after watching yesterday. Dan the fact that none of those kids went back to Aruba has always bothered me. I hate to think someone she knew and trusted may have harmed her. Why were they not asked to give statements in Aruba? If the FBI had no jurisdiction why did they handle the kids statements and do they even count. I grew up in an affluent suburb with many children who felt they were "above" others and never thought twice about the "lower" class. It would not be a far stretch if some of these children were liars.

[kyle]

I dont care about your courage to take a stand on an unpopular view

I dont care about your well written document

I dont care about your research about the Mansurs

I dont care about any of your heresay that does not quote sources

What I do care about is a boy saying we all had sex with her, a boy that lied about where he dropped her off at, and a new police chief that admits the van der sloot home was not search.

Mr Dan those are not hearsays but bottom line facts. When you can tell me how that journalistic heart and soul of yours moves past those facts to your accusations of bad media then id love to read it.

[c]

What I do care about is a boy saying we all had sex with her,
Posted by: kyle | Oct 13, 2005 10:07:31 AM

I missed this, where did they say they all had sex with her ? don't tell me u believe that tape u heard in Dr. Phil....

[bizman]

Kyle,Deepak never said they all had sex with Natalee.Jamie Skeeters said that.In fact everything on the tape that people are saying that Deepak said were in fact the words of Skeeters.Now the truth will come out as to the authenticity of the tape.

As far as the dressed like a slut,acted like a slut,that was obviously stated by Deepak,but it is not clear as to who he was referring to.But for a girl to dance like Natalee was reported doing and having shots slurped out of her belly button would qualify the statement of Deepak's as an opinion of Natalee that he strongly has.

In this country if a girls acts in that fashion she will be called a slut or a huzzy or any number of things.Just because she was in Aruba did not give her a license to act that way.It most likely was indicative of her activities back in Mountain Brook also.The only difference was she was doing so legally in Aruba.It was not her first rodeo.

[berry]

Simply stunning post, Dan. There's nothing else to say.

[Letshelp]

The reality is Dan you don't know anything or anymore than anyone else does on this case. It is so obvious that you have been cut out of the loop and are bitter about it that you do yourself a total injustice and everyone who reads your blog.

_____________

I TOTALLY AGREE....Dan is writing about how Joran is not guilty, there isnt' any evidence against him, etc. etc. while the lead investigator in Aruba is on Abrams saying that ALL ROADS lead back to the 3 suspects, that their stories have all been hugely inconsistent and that he believes they are still not being honest about what happened to Natalee and that he expects NO OTHER SUSPECTS in the case.

My guess is that after the 'death by orgasm' "source" that the real sources for Dan on the case dried up so now all he can do is bash Jossy Mansur, Beth Twitty and the media because he really doesn't have any info. and he isn't going to get any info.

It also seems that Skeeter's tape is soon to be in the hands of the Aruban LE and that according to Domping it was yet another 'misunderstanding' about conditions about them getting the tape....

We got this information direct from the Aruban police so I would say that pretty much ends the idea that there is going to ever be any evidence or reason to pursue these so called 'other angles', Mountain Brook angles and so forth.

You didn't see Domping complaining about what anyhone from Mountain Brook said or did not say or lied about or did not lie about....becuase the MB angle is CRAP...

Poor Dan......what a pathetic excuse for a 'journalist' that as a result of his own irresponsible actions his sources dry up and so he turns on the victim and her family.

Disgusting.

[Sharon]

COMMENT:
Dan, it's nice to read your view, and some if it was very amusing, but I think Joran is guilty, so I don't agree with you. Many people on this blog think you have changed your view too many times on this, but I just think it's what you're supposed to do when you realize more and more people who read your blog believe Joran is not guilty. It makes you more popular. Just my thoughts! Have a wonderful night!

Posted by: Dummyhunter | Oct 13, 2005 2:18:50 AM

RESPONSE:

DAN YOU ARE PLAYING THE BLAME GAME...GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION THAT IS TAG YOU ARE PUTTING ON JOSSY'S TOE....SHAME ON YOU!!

[Jan]

Absolutely brilliant! And pointing the finger at Jossy - well I have yet to figure out why so many supposedly good minded media folk have been touting that low life on the air nightly. Even last nite - there was Greta (who I used to find credible) allowing Jossy to spew his GARBAGE! The worst part of this for me is that I will never believe anything on any of these cable news shows again - I used to think at least Fair & Balanced Fox would give me exactly that. But what I see nightly is truly a disgrace. One of the few places I feel I can come for truth in this story is your site. Thank you for showing us all what journalism is supposed to be.

[Rubby]

You are a tool Dan. Plain and simple, you are as bad as they come.

[berry]

Dompig is now adhering to the new openess policy suggested by their American media consultant. That's a good thing for many reasons. Why does it surprise anyone that he says all paths lead to the trio? They were the ones in jail the longest, who are still labeled suspects and were last known to be with Natalee. And they have the Twitty stamp of approval. How could a path lead anywhere else?

It has not helped the family to be so focused on the trio. No one has been charged, they are out of jail and there is no hard evidence they had anything to do with whatever happened to Natalee.

Not once do I recall a single family member asking officials to look at every single lead and potential suspect, no matter where it goes or who it is.

The overburdened police department succumbed to the Twitty agenda to convict the trio. God knows how many solid tips were overlooked when the path did not head toward the trio.

Oh well, the good thing is the trio has been closely examined and the Twittys should accept insufficient evidence exits currently. It is time to look elsewhere and keep them on the back burner.

There is a term for the Twitty effort - the arrogance of ignorance. Their loss of Natalee is excruciating, but their know-it-all style has probably closed doors and yielded nothing but frustration.

[berry]

You are a tool Dan. Plain and simple, you are as bad as they come.

Posted by: Rubby | Oct 13, 2005
*******************************

If there is a tool the name is Beth Twitty.

[truthinplainsight]

Dan,

I like turning things upside down and looking from different angles, but I have a hard time believing Josey is acting out of revenge against the Dutch Government and the US Governement.

As we know with any good Government, if they wanted him out of there, they could make it happen tomorrow. Just ask SH. I would like to think if this is a revenge thing, then Josey would use something different than the life of a young girl.

How hard do you think the ALE would be working on this case removing all of the alleged stories? Don't we have examples to look at? Wasn't there a guy that disappeared a few years back down on the beach renting some Scuba gear? How much effort was put in on that one? Was it a cold case after 1 week or 2? Is it still active and they just haven't found any evidence?

At least with NH we know the ALE is still active on the case...

TIPS

[iquitos]

Thanks for that Dan. The MB spin machine and their orchestrated secrecy have always bothered me. I can't see a scenario where some mb kid actually kills natalee and disposes of the body but i think they know more than they are telling about the scene. we have had some glimpses of this possibility. If you want to solve a case you need all the pieces to start with. MB pieces are missing. I hope the FBI has shared their MB material with the Arubans in some form.

As to Mansur. He has too many axes to grind. Is he using his humanitarian actions to soften up the US Consulate so they will reverse his visa ineligibility for money laundering or is it just about spinning the case in some direction of his advantage.

Now that Dompig has one Beth needs a media advisor too. The advisor needs to get the facts from her jumbled mind and put them out unadornoed. Beth is undermining her case with her borad accusations. She does not understand that you don't need statements from witnesses to activities also witnessed by the police. The absolute worst moment in this case was the posse at the van der sloots. They should have located it and then put the heat on the cops to act rather than interrogating joran themselves. BTW, i don't hink van der straaten was there. I think it was two cops from the Noord station.

Good to see Abrahms ask hard questions. I guess I am expecting too much from cable. You can;t do justice to the facts of the case in a written for sixth grade ad every three minutes to build suspence format. This need deep and considered attention not an ADD all over the map expose. when is some real journalist going to do a long factual piece? Maybe the wolfson lady form Birmingham?

what about virginai page? who is she and what is her relationship to g rufus page, mcwane president and to natalee?

rumors:

what about the hysterical woman on the beach and the guys forcing a hysterical woman into a car in the HI area?

what about the meal natalee is alleged to have had with some guys other than joran and mbers guys at the marriott?

what about the security detail for the soul jazz beach festival?

what about the alleged sigting of natalee looking for a "choller" house?

These are early "credible" rumors from Aruban sources as reported on Aruban radio. .

[bmt]

The strongest statement is that everyone should be looked at. Not just the three boys. The relatives, the friends, and anyone else who happened to be on the beach that night.

I think the saddest fact is that because of the media hype driven by Natalee's family two things may have happened:
1. If she was kidnapped, she has been long killed because of the publicity
2. The pressure from the media made the ARuban/Dutch justice system function in a reactive manner, rather than an intestigative manner. Thus they spent time chasing ridiculous leads and draining ponds rather than finding the truth.

I dont think it will ever be resolved. And the false hope given to the family, especially Beth, has probably damaged Natalee's mom beyond what we can imagine.

[Letshelp]

Oh please, the idea that Jossy Mansur has it in for a 17 year old high school kid and his two friends is preposterous. I'm sure someone w/Mansur's connections and money could find a much better way to get his revenge on the Dutch government.....

And for that matter, who cares how the documents came into Jossy's possession as long as they are real....HELLO...the Pentagon Papers were illegally provided to the media as well....does Dan think that they were worthless too...well, given his political leanings, he probably does.

I thought Domping's interview was great for many reasons..

-He clears up the tape issue and says that if its legit it could turn the case around.

-He UNEQUIVOCALLY states that he believes the 3 amigos will and should remain the prime suspects.

-He also said it would take 'two days' to go through all of Joran's inconsistent statements....which kind of blows another big hole in Dan's idea that Joran just told a couple of 'harmless' lies and everything else was consistent.

-He says ALL 3 suspects stories were inconsistant....again, killing the idea that they told only the first lie and then started telling the truth.

-He says NOTHING about wanting/needing/wishing for any more cooperation or information from Mountain Brook.

-I would be interested to know if its true that all 3 denied having sex w/her except in the Deepak interview how it is that Beth and Dave became convinced they all admitted to sex and where the 'falling asleep and waking up' comments came from.

I found Domping to be very credible, and apart from Karin Janssen...he's the only person from Aruba who I believe

[shonane]

I agree. Have reached the same conclusions.

[GrannyToad]

This post has a lottabaloney I don't understand the intent of.

"Were you ever told that the so-called Gardner that saw the boys at the pond is said to have worked for Eduardo Mansur? Of course not. Were you told that the fellow who supposedly started the jailhouse fight with Deepak Kalpoe that led to an outburst much reported in the news is alleged to be a Mansur doing time on a firearms charge? That what he is alleged to have said to him was, "I know what you did last summer.""

Yes Dan we *were* told from the introduction of the gardener's existence that he worked for a Mansur family member - that's how it came about there at the jail. Deepak was taunted by another Mansur family member who knew of the gardener's existence and Deepak dumped the dominoes -- remember that?

"Natalee's own Father didn't know everyone who was even on the trip, including other Twitty family members, until just recently."

Why ever would Dave Holloway "know" the other 139 residents of a different state? Why or how would he have met the traveling group? For two months even Beth Twitty's contact with them was via telephone and/or 2nd-hand. I don't quite understand other expectations. After all don't we agree that Natalee was DISAPPEARED on Aruba?

Natalee did not return to Alabama. Keep the focus on Aruba and May30-31 - and perhaps later.

[JMac]

Let's see.....Blast the MSM for reporting everything with the word "allegedly" in front of it and then point out a convoluted Jossy Mansur conspiracy theory with the caveat "My point in linking to the Mansur stories here is not to accuse him of anything, specifically - but to point out that this is a man with a long history of animosity toward the Dutch." borders on laughable hypocrisy.

The simple, cut to the chase bottom line on this story is that if Joran is not involved, he's the unluckiest kid on the planet. Any competent law enforcement officer will tell you convenient coincidences like he is clinging too are common and almost always fabricated. I leave open the possibility that Joran is innocent because anything is possible but I don't like his odds.

If you ignore all the reporting of the MSM things still don't look good for Joran.
A wise man once said "Common sense is not all that common."

[shonane]

In any case, none of the documents are fully legitimate, or evidence for a court. Some may have been manufactured out of whole cloth for all we know. At best they are interrogation tools, which explains why some are said to be signed by the detectives, though none are signed by Joran himself. IN fact, it's unknown if any of these alleged documents were legitimately signed by anyone.
==================
Jossey said in one interview that they have a box outside the newspaper where people can leave things, and this is where one of the most incriminating supposed confessions, not signed by Joran, but signed by 4 officers. Anyone in the PI who knows the proper format and forms to put this on could have typed this and even could have created signatures for the typed officers names. It is amazing that Jossey would publish something and not even know his source.

I have wondered if there is a key officer, or maybe two, who are being paid by whoever had something to do with Natalee's disappearance, to develop these tailor made statement's - not signed by Joran - and to leak other things to throw off the investigation. They could easily take a drafted statement, and add a few extra details, and recreate it. About a month ago, Beth, after meeting with the Aruba prosecution and looking at the suspects signed statements, was very upset that they did not contain all these little extras that she had seen unofficially. Reason why? She saw bogus not legal documents. She accuses the Aruba investigators of making changes and deleting these incriminating statement, instead of realizing that they never were legitimate to begin with.

[Letshelp]

Granny..

Yeah, it wasn't news to me or anyone else following the case that the gardener was employed by one of Jossy's relatives or that the man in jail was there on a firearms charge...as I remember Jossy stated this on TV more than once.

[GrannyToad]

Dompig believes that there may have been "translation errors" in the statements that Beth Twitty received.
Posted by: Geez | Oct 13, 2005 8:13:45 AM

Then Dompig may also agree with Beth that substantive omissions occurred in the "translations" of at least 5 of the witness statements from the night of 31May/1June.

Who is doing those translations? Two Dutch attorneys did the translations that Dave, Beth, Jug heard & have the copies of. But who did the serious omissions that apparently caused certain information to have never been shown to any judge? What deception's inherent in having brought the "Dutch version" to Beth to sign *in a restaurant* after having tracked her down? Had she an attorney present to read that for her before signing - during dinner?

[GrannyToad]

"Dompig is now adhering to the new openess policy suggested by their American media consultant."

2005. Glasnost - in Dutch?

[Shell]

Dan,
I agree with 100% of what you wrote. You are the ONLY person with any credibility, and a voice in the wilderness.

I believe that the Twitty campaign will not cease until it hurts Aruba, with Dr. Phil, Jossy, and all their allies, the people of Aruba will be punished.

Maybe Jossy can then buy up all the real estate they leave as they look for jobs on other islands, or fly back to Holland, and wherever they can get visas. Then Aruba will be all his. He has a sinister background, and the most motive to hide and protect those who took Natalee. Maybe he manufactured, or had a hand in this all along. How ironic that Beth Twitty's "ANGEL" Jossy, may actually be protecting or part of a network responsible for what happened to Natalee.

Thank you for having to courage to print the truth. Shame on MSM. Shame on Nancy Grace. I notice she is not reporting the case. Maybe her CNN boss put an end to that travesty.

But, shame on the media who exploiting a mother who needs serious counseling and medication. She is obsessed with those boys, and that's understandable, but, her wrath is like she's the mother of Persephone, taken to the dark world, whose mother hid the sun to punish the world.

You have the intelligence to get it, and not fall victim to be part of Persephone's vindictive mother to hide the light, and bring about darkness, punishing the innocent.

[shonane]

A similar thing happened to OJ;
Not found guilty in criminal court.
But found guilty in CIVIL court.

===================
OJ's criminal trial was blown by a corrupt detective who planted evidence and got caught. If he had not planted evidence, there would have been sufficient legitimate evidence to convict OJ. But because some of the evidence was known to be contaminated, the entire investigation was was under suspicion so the jury could not convict without reasonable doubt. Thus in OJ's case, there was real evidence that was considered in the civil case. There was also a history of domestic violence with OJ and Nicole and some motivation for harming her. One really cannot compare the Natalee Hollaway case with OJ's case.

[Letshelp]

You guys can't have it both ways.

Domping stated unequivocally that the 3 amigos were the ONLY SUSPECTS...that they had all made MANY inconsistent statements and that Daddy Van Der Sloot was a suspect in Natalee's disappearance itself and after the fact....

Not Beth Twitty, not Dave Holloway, not Jossy Mansur, not Nancy Grace.

The lead investigator in Aruba.

He believes they have the right guys...the 3 amigos, the 3 liars.

Deal with it.

[Bella]

What I read from Dan's wonderful post is a case where vindictive, greedy, dishonest, and gullible people have twisted and turned events, statements, and timelines each to their own benefit. This post of Dan's should not elicit comments made back to him that by stating discrepancies, apparent lies and deceptive "facts" that FACT-Joran is guilty or FACT this and that. Rather, in my opinion we are all in a position where we should drop preconceived ideas, forget about what might or might not be true, and approach this matter knowing that we do not and may never really know.

I hope the harm done by the well-intentioned but at this point thoroughly worn out (physically and factually) family, the Mansur's, the LE, the politicos of Aruba and THE MSN can be circumnavigated somehow, and in some way truth will prevail. Justice? An eye for an eye? Who knows at this point. Would anyone of us know the truth at this point if we stumbled over it? Kudos to Dan.

[GrannyToad]

Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway have not only already suffered the loss of a child, learned the basics of her last few hours, and are not being given so much as the solace of being able to take her remains home nor to know with finality what became of their child.

How anyone would ever be able to make it up to the victim's mother for the inexcusable viciousness toward her is beyond comprehension. It must also pain her ex-husband deeply to be aware how the mother of his child is being demeaned.

[Will]

Natalee's own Father didn't know everyone who was even on the trip, including other Twitty family members, until just recently."

Why ever would Dave Holloway "know" the other 139 residents of a different state? Why or how would he have met the traveling group?

Posted by: GrannyToad | Oct 13, 2005 11:15:58 AM

Was not Dave reluctant about this trip for some reason or another? One would think Beth would give Dave the smallest assurance or comfort and inform him her cousins would be on the same trip with her.

[gemebwai]

Letshelp: You obviously don't know Dompig... Local people here know him as an arrogant and far from intelligent person who was just placed at his current positions because he always tells the story he is told to tell by his superiors. That's why I've always liked vd Straten, he was/is a straight talking person with his own mind, it's what got him in trouble with the min. of Justice in various occasions. Dompig never gets into trouble with "his" ministister (already explained why), he even showed up on political events supporting the Min. of Justice in campaingn period, something a high police official IMO shoudl never do.

[Letshelp]

GENEBWAI

Are you saying that we shouldn't believe what Dompig said then?

[gemebwai]

Well, I personally don't trust Dompig, I leave it for everyone to believe what he/she wants to believe (that's the true meaning of freedom!). I just found it appropriate to give some background on the person Dompig, as his appearance might be deceptive.

[shonane]

poor innocent security guards arrested
==============
Mickey Johns is still a suspect. The boys did not specifically point to these two guys. They just said she was escorted by a black security guard. These two guys did not even work at the Holiday Inn. The police found these two and they had their reasons. Mickey Johns was at the HI until after midnight that night and has no alibi from then until about 6 or 6:30 am. Prior to Natalee disappearing, he had already been been questioned about theft from the MBHS groups cameras, and there were some reports (not sure if they are accurate) that some of the MBHS students things were found at his apartment when he was arrested. Not sure if I believe the later report of finding some of their things at his apt since I would think we would have heard of a followup charge against him for peti theft and never heard that.

[Geez]

They just said she was escorted by a black security guard.
Posted by: shonane | Oct 13, 2005 11:46:46 AM

They didn't even say that. They said she was escorted by security guards wearing black. That's a subtle diffrence.

[Letshelp]

What they actually said was a black man wearing black/dark clothes and carrying a walkie talkie...

But the important thing is that there WAS NO BLACK MAN and there was NO HI DROP OFF..

And there was NO CONFESSION by the suspects that their story was a lie when the two SG's were arrested.....

Cause maybe they were hoping those 2 men would take the rap for what happened to Natalee??

Oh yeah, and Dan's proclaiming that the MB students allegedly downplaying their own drinking, possible drug taking, sex etc. is THE SAME/ON PAR with Joran lying to police about a missing person, again, is simply idiotic.

Any lies or white washing the MB students may have engaged in had nothing to do with the case, and I will reiterate that at no time have Aruban police said there was a lack of candor from MB or that the students impeded the investigation in any way.

On the other hand, they have repeatedly said the 3 suspects lied and lied and lied.

It shouldn't take a brain surgeon to see there is a huge difference in the two lies.

[bmt]

Absolutely brilliant! And pointing the finger at Jossy - well I have yet to figure out why so many supposedly good minded media folk have been touting that low life on the air nightly. Even last nite - there was Greta (who I used to find credible) allowing Jossy to spew his GARBAGE! The worst part of this for me is that I will never believe anything on any of these cable news shows again - I used to think at least Fair & Balanced Fox would give me exactly that. But what I see nightly is truly a disgrace. One of the few places I feel I can come for truth in this story is your site. Thank you for showing us all what journalism is supposed to be.

Posted by: Jan | Oct 13, 2005 10:32:09 AM

Absolutely true, Jan. I will never again take at face value anything these cable news shows say. Now it makes me wonder the value of what I saw before. They are completely and totally discredited. They are interested in ratings and ratings only not the news. Or maybe they should just be considered entertainment.

[Mark D]

Earth to Dan! How in the world can you compare the lie that Van der Sloot said in regards to the Holiday Inn with the lie about the MB students drinking responsibly! VS's lie caused the incarceration of two innocent men and stalled the case..and in case you haven't figured this out..this lie was significant to a missing person case..the drinking responsible thing is of no significance at all!

[iquitos]

the cops and the prosecution obviously have though for some time than jor&kbros are the perps but their problem is they can't sell their hypothesis to any judge. this might indicate they are wrong. should be a slam dunk to solve a disappearance on a small island. no body, no crime scene, no weapon, no motive, no witnesses. could they be looking at the wrong scenario?

[Markd]

another thing! I find it laughable that you are attacking the MSN for spouting rumors about Joran drugging girls when you posted the same thing yourself! You said that Joran was a sociopath or psychopath..I can't remember..then you attack the msm for doing the same thing. Do you not remember what you post? Also, you were one of the first people to report that Natalee Holloway is dead..and then never retracted the story. Also, if the ALE didn't screw up in the 1st ten days of this case, we would most likely have the answers and this case would be over.

[berry]

Granny..

Yeah, it wasn't news to me or anyone else following the case that the gardener was employed by one of Jossy's relatives or that the man in jail was there on a firearms charge...as I remember Jossy stated this on TV more than once.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Many of us were aware of that - but I think Dan is trying to address and inform a broader group of readers, broader then the extremely well-informed folks who often post or read here.

[tahoe111]

Excellent post, Dan! This is the reason I check in each day, keep up all the great work!

[bizarre]

I see things differently. Previous to finding dan I was on all the other boards. As my mind began to see inconsistencies, as I began to see that they would be released for lack of credible evidence I so posted. I was treated to a barage of posts stating that the evidence was tampered with and/or removed and that the Prosecutor's office was corrupt. I then began to post that other roads needed to be explored. I began to say, time is of the essence and it is vitally important to look at other avenues. Again, I was trounced. It was at that point that I began to believe that this was being "handled" by someone. This is a very difficult situation, if you do not follow the story as dictated from "whomever" you are treated to a bashing on the boards. At one point, I pointed out that everyone must be spoken with because a person may have information they do not realize they have. I pointed out the Sould Beach Festival. I pointed out the fact that the island was jammed with people. I pointed out that the hotels were packed and noone saw anything?. I pointed out that there were yachts in the harbor that set sail that evening and the next day. I suggested that it might not have been the best idea to "confiscate" the cameras and cell phones of the kids. When I did that I was maligned for the word confiscate. I predicted that the suspects would be released and that the family would move to Holland. Boy, did I get a lot of grief for that one.

I began to realize that, although there were those who were labeled
trolls and banned from the sites, these trolls were making valid points. They had developed credible information and it was being summarily dismissed and ignored. I began to realize that there was suddenly a new set of trolls, only these trolls were not banned, they were espousing the story that the other side wanted to embrace. I found myself right in the middle. I found myself with more questions now than when I began. I found myself posting on all the sites asking who was speaking for the young woman, who was still interested in her? When I made that post I realized that the issue had become so insane that it was no longer about finding her but about both sides arguing. I then became very frightened when I realized that it might not have anything to do with logic, reason,or evidence. I am not a believer in the theory, espoused all over the boards, that the "end justifies the means"...the end does not justify the means. One day, on another board, i witnessed a lynch mob in the making. I watched the statements and the hair on my neck began to stand up. I watched the threats and I became concerned. I recognized the subtle pressure not to say anything that would "rock the boat".

Like you, I don't know who is responsible for this. I find that when I pose any question, people immediately accuse me of not caring about the victim and of bashing her mother. Never, anywhere have I ever not cared or bashed, ever.

The other day I began to go back and read all the original entries in the birmingham papers that I could find (some have been removed from the internet) and I began to see that what was said in those articles has been debunked by posters on these boards. Instead what has been created was an "urban legend" of the boards. Subtle things like telling everyone she was not at the music festival when, in fact, no less than two newpaper accounts state that she was. Telling everyone that the FBI confiscated the cameras when, in fact, several reporters state that it was a chaperone. I see a mother who has been used by many, which to me is unconscionable. I will venture to guess that she does not, at this point, know who she should trust. I see a father who would have been marginalized were it not for you dan. If you did nothing else, giving voice to Mr. Holloway's concerns was extremely important and relevant.

I can't predict the outcome of this. I am tired of having to couch every question I ask with the proviso that yes I do care about Mrs. Twitty and the victim. Really, if we did not care about these two highly important people and her biological father and her brother, why would we all have given enormous amounts of time in our lives in the quest for an answer to what happened?

Thanks dan, you are entitled to change your opinion, facts and evidence have a way of doing that for you. You have a right to run this blog any way you want to and you are doing a very valuable service which I think that Dave Holloway has acknowledged. Keep it up dan, because I still think that she is alive and I would like to see the day when you interview her on the blog.