Natalee Holloway: Why Joran Van Der Sloot Is Guilty

This is part three in an ongoing series. See links to Part one Natalee Holloway And Cable News: A Season Of Fraud and Part two - The Cover Up Begins In Mountain Brook.

Why Joran Van Der Sloot Is Guilty - or, more precisely, why do so many think he is guilty when there is no evidence he committed a crime?

Jossy Mansur was named in a leaked top secret report from Dutch intelligence services linking him to smuggling and, in essence, organized crime. While it's my understanding he may have distanced himself over time from any potential linkage the report inferred, it does not mean his credibilty can't be questioned on that score, or that he ever forgave the Dutch for the secret report having been leaked.

In August 1994, the United States indicted cousins Eric and Alex Mansur along with 52 others allegedly involved in a massive drug money-laundering enterprise.

Jossy Mansur is the owner and chief editor of the biggest newspaper on the island, "Diario". ... "Jossy Mansur is not impressed claiming that accusing people of drug trafficking and money laundering ""has become a political tool to discredit them”." Alex and Eric Mansur were indicted in Puerto Rico in August 1994. (77) President Clinton specifically mentioned the Mansur's when he put Aruba on the list of Major Illicit Drug-transit Countries in December 1996. Although no member of the family was actually indicted in the La Costa case,...

My point in linking to the Mansur stories here is not to accuse him of anything, specifically - but to point out that this is a man with a long history of animosity toward the Dutch, of involvement in the island's politics and, in particular, animosity toward the Dutch Justice Ministry. The very ministry in which Paulus Van Der Sloot played a relatively minor role - but a role nonetheless.

From Rita Cosby:

Police say in this allegedly authentic document that Joran said he left Natalee Holloway asleep on the beach and then left. And then he said he feels that Deepak Kalpoe raped and killed Natalee, then buried her in that area. We haven‘t seen the document. That is what the paper says they have printed in today‘s edition.

The allegedly authentic statements which form the basis of most all significant accusations against Joran Van Der Sloot by Beth Twitty, if real at all, were most likely obtained, by definition, inappropriately, possibly even illegally through corruption within the Aruban police force. They should have never been released. One source on Aruba informed me months ago that Jossy Mansur allegedly had inappropriate access to the entire police file.

If you read any written account of these documents in the MSM you will note the word alleged used through out. Great, their lawyers earned their money and protected the network, but that didn't stop them from allowing these documents to frame what are baseless allegations hurled by a distraught Mother against three young men for a period of months.

As a little common sense, along with asking a few questions revealed the nature of these documents to me, a lowly web logger with a telephone - it is entirely inexcusable that alleged news organizations have allowed this outright fraud to continue as they have.

It is the worst kind of exploitation of the label journalist, as well as an exploitation of a Mother grasping at straws. Any responsible, genuinely caring human being, let alone a journalist, should have felt compelled to force her to accept the truth. Instead, they have allowed her to diminish her credibility, likely beyond repair - and foster within her false notions of hope for a prosecution which will likely never materialize with no real evidence at hand.

In any case, none of the documents are fully legitimate, or evidence for a court. Some may have been manufactured out of whole cloth for all we know. At best they are interrogation tools, which explains why some are said to be signed by the detectives, though none are signed by Joran himself. IN fact, it's unknown if any of these alleged documents were legitimately signed by anyone.

Supposedly, interrogators fashioned scenarios and cross examined the suspect for hours trying to get him to confess to different versions of the crime - he did it - Deepak did it - we did it at the house, or on the beach, she was unconscious, this happened in the car, etc. Who knows? Each one was typed up or written, some perhaps signed by interrogators, and placed in front of a 17 year old boy to sign after hours of intense interrogation so everyone could go home.

But he never signed one! Perhaps because no version was true? Well, that can't be true. After all, we know he has lied before to make it sound like he wasn't a cad who left a girl on a beach - so he said he dropped her at the hotel. That's a lie about as significant as the responsible drinking theme we've been hearing from the Mountain Brook students all along. And for precisely the same reasons. It's known that Natalee was drunk and willingly went off with the boy. What Joran Van Der Sloot did is called saving face, not conspiracy.

But the nature of the statements mentioned above didn't stop someone from furnishing them to Beth so that they could be trumpeted nightly on cable TV as the actual statements of the boy. If this were all taking place in America they should prosecute it as pure fraud. One wonders if some have lost all sense of genuine justice in following this case. And that's a bigger shame than the loss of any one person, no matter how dear she might be.

Never in my life have I been so disappointed in American media and so many Americans as a whole, as well. They have gone on about conspiracies, slandered three young men for months with no evidence to support their accusations - and the entire story which they have used to do it is mostly a fabrication of one individual - Jossy Mansur. Curiously, the Mansur family even has an old and likely irrelevant distant relationship with Jug Twitty himself.

Not only did Mansur have all the motivation in the world to try and embarrass the Dutch authorities to hurt their chances in a pending election that eventually saw his side trounced, he may also have wanted to extract revenge through a Dutch family, the Father of which was a minor player in the justice ministry, as said ministry previously took the unprecedented step of allowing the extradition of members of the Mansur family to a United States jurisdiction. A grudge some say he has never gotten over. And that doesn't even go into a prime piece of Palm Beach, Aruban real estate Mansur coveted for development that the government wouldn't approve.

Yet this is the one individual upon which the whole story depends? Cable News seems to have forgotten the meaning of the words motivation and credibility when it comes to a source that can drive their ratings.

He began a whispering campaign long before the glare of the media spotlight hit the island. From the very first press conferences there he was telling the story to anyone who would listen - including journalists, family members and friends he conveniently managed to wind up next to at many events.

Joran made and sold a child porno tape, Joran bragged about drugging young girls, Joran has an anger management problem, Joran was in the casino's every night, his Father, too, he's done this to other girls, on and on it went and Fox and the other networks loved it so much they finally put a man who can't legally enter the States on the air as the most credible journalist and source on the island. Of course, everyone in Aruba knows Diario is a tabloid capable of printing almost anything. But a vast part of America bought the nonsense hook, line and sinker, particularly as it was fed to them through our own cable news outlets.

I've spoken with several responsible American journalists working for reputable American publications who tried to run those rumors down and in every case they failed before giving up on the story. There was simply nothing there. But that didn't stop the rumors from playing their part in what was to become a sort of perfect storm.

It allowed Beth to completely preserve the virtue of her missing daughter above and beyond anything she needed to as Natalee had nothing to hide. She was an average girl of eighteen - with all its obvious social implications. For the media it drove tremendous ratings - and all the while one man possibly played this country like a con artist extraordinaire and it continues right up until today. If his motivations weren't so questionable, he'd deserve to pride himself for playing so skillfully on America's arrogance and our media's ignorance and greed.

Several local Arubans were questioned early in the case - but why bother talking about that? No, that couldn't be pertinent at all. Let's just hang the Dutch kid and two Surinamese brothers because one man feeding information to an emotionally wired, micro-phoned Mother says it's so. And if the source was any more credible, hell, he might even be allowed into the United States.

Were you ever told that the so-called Gardner that saw the boys at the pond is said to have worked for Eduardo Mansur? Of course not. Were you told that the fellow who supposedly started the jailhouse fight with Deepak Kalpoe that led to an outburst much reported in the news is alleged to be a Mansur doing time on a firearms charge? That what he is alleged to have said to him was, "I know what you did last summer." Nope, we didn't hear that reported from the top notch journalists working for cable news, either. But let's talk more about that pond - the one Jossy led us to which riveted you to the TV set for a few days and nights.

Did you know that there are environmental scientists who previously claimed it couldn't ever be drained because of the strong flow from a spring? Or that they said that when it's draining was proposed for a hotel project - that was protested to retain the significant environmental feature for the island? Yet, on the word of a would be gardner who couldn't seem to make it into court, Jossy, also one of the island's richest business men, by the way, got it drained. Well, he tried to, anyway - at least until reality proved the environmentalists right.

Oh, but that was to find Natalee, I forgot. Just ask the Mansur Gardner. LOL Better be careful though - maybe he'll try to sell you a bridge next. After all, many Americans and the media seemed to buy just about everything else he sold us. What a shame some prosperous business person won't make a little more money on a new hotel and casino because the pond didn't stay dry. Aruba can always use another hotel, don't you think? Apparently someone does. It's just not apparent that any of their motivation comes from a sincere desire to find a still missing girl.

But don't think about the pond anymore - as soon as that fiasco was finished, he produced another witness who led everyone to the dump. And this is the man whose credibility is behind every accusation Beth Twitty, cable news and some shrinking number of die hard Americans want to hurl? That is surreal.

The Twitty family went into Aruba determined to find Natalee. Unfortunately, it's very possible that given their know-it-all approach they eventually all but forced the Aruban authorities to move only in the direction of the three boys. And the authorities, aided by the likes of Mansur actually tried incredibly hard to build a case against them. Only a fool believes that any tourist island would put any three members of their population above the greater value of their entire tourist industry.

Yes, Beth Twitty drove the story AND the investigation because the last thing Aruba wanted was a public relations nightmare. But despite that co-operation they were still vilified in the media every night. I'm sure the dwindling Beth Twitty fans don't want to hear it, but the reality is that her decision to act as a one man police department and prosecutor with a microphone, as opposed to the grieving Mother she perhaps might have, could turn out to be the most significant detriment to what might have been, or still might be a successful investigation in the end.

The facts are that with a ton of money on the street in reward, months of high pressure interrogations and arrests and re-arrests of the suspects, ALE hasn't been able to find one shred of evidence. Still, on the urgings of one distraught Mother and the ratings chasing cable news outlets, no one is supposed to look in any other direction than the three boys. It's almost impossible to conclude that given the months of pressure with nothing shaking loose that they had anything to do with her disappearance at all. Yet, even I am not willing to say they are innocent. But someone with some sense at least needs to begin to look in another direction.

Sadly, the Twittys were quite possibly played like bereaved bumpkins by someone who saw them coming a mile away. If a low or mid-level drug dealer was involved in Natalee's disappearance, it wouldn't be the Dutch directing any cover up. It would more likely be individuals at least at one time linked to the type of corruption that can produce police reports and suspect statements out of thin air. Ironic, but that's precisely like the one person the family has been allowing to lead them around by the nose. But what the hell, one more cable news appearance can't hurt, can it?

So, let's summarize: we don't have any right to hear from the kids from Mountain Brook who might know what other locals, or what low or mid-level drug dealer or dealers they or even Natalee might have become acquainted with during the week at some club, even if they never purchased anything. Perhaps one she might have run into on her stroll back from the beach to her hotel? Was it perhaps some mysterious blue-eyed non- stranger who convinced her to go to just that one last party or rave before catching her plane in the morning? Her behavior that night suggests she might have at least been open to an invite coming from a recognizable face without realizing what she was in for.

But we can't even guess at that because 110 witnesses who knew the most of the comings and goings of the week left the island and didn't come back. And on top of that they were all but compelled to keep any possible pertinent details to themselves. And reports from parents in Mountain Brook don't instill great confidence in the coordination with the FBI.

Natalee's own Father didn't know everyone who was even on the trip, including other Twitty family members, until just recently. Isn't that taking being discreet just a little bit beyond the norm?

People have accused me of taking sides in this fiasco - it doesn't have any sides for me. There is only one side and that's Natalee's as defined by the truth of what happened to her. Nonsense won't help find Natalee. Nothing but the truth will do that. And unfortunately, Mountain Brook has shown no regard for it, as I wrote previously, Mountain Brook decided to cover up pertinent details of the trip early on.

Maybe it's easier living in the world you want to think you live in, as opposed to the one that's real. And I suppose you can always blame someone else for your ignorance - especially if they can't defend themselves because of the justice system. But this case is America's disgrace, not her shining moment of resolve.

There is nothing professional, ethical or noble in what is taking place on our cable news networks in this regard any more. And that should feel incredibly sad as well as dangerous to every American with any genuine sense of justice, or a genuinely serious concern for an all too young to be missing, missing girl.

This post is also available at Blogger News Network.

Comments

[Isanah]

Perhaps we will see a change in the way this story is covered in the MSM. Abrams seems to be asking more direct questions of the Twittys, and there has been more imput from the ALE. Keep making everyone think "out of the box" Dan.

[Dummyhunter]

Dan, it's nice to read your view, and some if it was very amusing, but I think Joran is guilty, so I don't agree with you. Many people on this blog think you have changed your view too many times on this, but I just think it's what you're supposed to do when you realize more and more people who read your blog believe Joran is not guilty. It makes you more popular. Just my thoughts! Have a wonderful night!

[newswatcher]

Great, great post! Thanks Dan, for having the courage to make a stand.
Innocent until proven guilty.

[danascully]

I agree with you 100%, Dan.

[Dan]

It makes you more popular

LOL Thanks DummyHunter - but obviously you don't know me very well. I'm about as concerned with being popular as a fake twenty dollar bill in a whore house. But keep reading.

[Dummyhunter]

Anytime, Dan...I'm just preparing you for what a lot of people have been posting and will post again after they read this. And no more fake twenties! Goodnight

[dave]

------------------------------------------------------
But he never signed one! Perhaps because no version was true? Well, that can't be true. After all, we know he has lied before to make it sound like he wasn't a cad who left a girl on a beach - so he said he dropped her at the hotel. That's a lie about as significant as the responsible drinking theme we've been hearing from the Mountain Brook students all along. And for precisely the same reasons. It's known that Natalee was drunk and willingly went off with the boy. What Joran Van Der Sloot did is called saving face, not conspiracy.

--------------------------------------------------

How in the hell can you possibly pretend to know his reasoning behind the original lie? These boys can't keep their stories straight and Dompig confirmed that to us tonight. No more of this "they told one lie to save face" BS, he said it would take 2 days to go over all their inconsistencies.

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"Several local Arubans were questioned early in the case - but why bother talking about that? No, that couldn't be pertinent at all. Let's just hang the Dutch kid and two Surinamese brothers because one man feeding information to an emotionally wired, micro-phoned Mother says it's so. And if the source was any more credible, hell, he might even be allowed into the United States."
----------------------------------------------

I would like to know why they were questioned as much as the next person, but even Dompig said tonight that all the leads they followed seemed to come back to these boys. Also, I think there is a lot more behind people's accusations of these boys than just what Jossy said. We have heard from investigators who are involved (Dompig, Tromp, etc.) that they feel these boy are the culprits, and they are the ones with the information, not you or anyone else. I think there word alone is enough for people to think these boys are likely culprits.

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Never in my life have I been so disappointed in American media and so many Americans as a whole, as well. They have gone on about conspiracies, slandered three young men for months with no evidence to support their accusations - and the entire story which they have used to do it is mostly a fabrication of one individual - Jossy Mansur. Curiously, the Mansur family even has an old and likely irrelevant distant relationship with Jug Twitty himself.
--------------------------------------------------------

Excuse me, but aren't you the guy who ran the whole "thoughtprinting" story? A story which basically suggested that the three had gang-raped Natalee simply on the basis of Hodge making inferences about their statements? Is that not slandering these men with no evidence?

[Dan]

Is that not slandering these men with no evidence?

Have you seen me link it lately, Dave? Am I not entitled to take the time to do the diligent research our media will not do and present my conclusions? Sorry, Dave, you are behaving like a fool. And I do not suffer them gladly. Good night, my friend.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Weighing evidence that DOES exist, even if only circumstantial, is exactly what is done in a courtroom, by a judge or jury (for a case that may be in the US for example).

Don't tell me about Aruba not being the US. That doesn't matter for purposes of me making my own assessment of what I see and hear directly.. EVERYTHING. Not what someone interprets it to be for me.

There may not be a lot of evidence. There just has to be enough to convince the "trier of fact" that a crime has occurred and that the accused did it.

I have been on a jury where the 12 of us agreed there was enough evidence for some crimes, but not for others, according to the "rules of court." BUT we ALL thought the accused WAS guilty even in those crimes. We just could not "legally" convict him.

A similar thing happened to OJ;
Not found guilty in criminal court.
But found guilty in CIVIL court.

Here, for me , this is like a CIVIL court, since I'm just a civilian observer.

My conclusion is that HE IS GUILTY of some crimes, based on what I have seen.

That's all I can do right now - give MY opinion based on WHAT I'VE SEEN......

I don't accept third party, unverified, hearsay, rumors and suspicions, or biased, twisted irrelevant personal attacks from people I cannot see being questioned and responding....

[Dan]

WHAT I'VE SEEN......

Here's what you've seen my friend just read below:

.

[cathy]

dan,
To thine own self be true...
thanks for caring enough to do this...

[PMorrissey]

I agree with everything you've been saying.

Slowly but surely, people are coming to see this over-the-top coverage of *one* missing person for what it truly is. What irks me is that nobody in the media wants to pitch hard questions to the missing woman's mother. So, she's been given carte blanche to make as many unfounded accusations on one show before she runs off to do it all over again on the next show...

Got to think of the Almighty Ratings...can't appear to "beat up" on a distraught mother. Pffffft.

[Dummyhunter]

WHAT I'VE SEEN......

Here's what you've seen my friend just read below:

.

Posted by: Dan | Oct 13, 2005 2:43:01 AM

Hey Dan, that is the same thing YOU have seen, and if not, since you have been doing all this investigative work yourself that these American Media journalists are slacking on, why can't you show everyone else how you know to enlighten us? Sorry, but I couldn't resist. Your comment didn't make sense to her...

[George]

Dan! Great! You put much of what I'm telling around, but YOU have audience.

You go for Truth, congratulations!

[dave]

Have you seen me link it lately, Dave? Am I not entitled to take the time to do the diligent research our media will not do and present my conclusions? Sorry, Dave, you are behaving like a fool. And I do not suffer them gladly. Good night, my friend.

Posted by: Dan | Oct 13, 2005 2:38:49 AM

I'm behaving like a fool? That is hilarious given your current stint of hypocrisy. Of course you are entitled to do dilligent reasearch, and I very much hope that you do. However, myself and others get a bit tired of the hypocrisy of you lambasting the media for making slanderous, unfounded allegations while you engaged in exactly the same practices yourself. You tried to pass off the thoughtprinting article as a piece of legitimate science - when, in fact, it was nothing of the sort. And, of course, this article was about as slanderous to the boys reputations as could be with nothing but inferences to support it. What difference does it make if you linked it lately? You would still be guilty of the very same thing you chide the media for. Unless, of course, there is some sort of cut-off date for when one is allowed to make these sort of allegations.

[Not a Handwringer]

Hi Dan, long time reader.....

Dan I once accused you of being a faux journalist...and not a good one at that.

But, I have to say that my view of your blog has evolved just as your coverage of the Natalee disappearance has evolved. What I'm reading from you recently shows real journalistic integrity in my opinion. You're clearly beginning to seperate yourself from those high-profile MSM Cable personalities ( I hate to use the word journalist to describe them ) who have polluted the air-waves in their coverage of Natalee's disappearance with rumour, innuendo, mis-truths, and lazy coverage that draws viewers.

I too think that your blog has taken on a different tone in the case coverage. But, I like the new tone and I applaud this latest part in your recent series of posts on the Holloway case.

It articulates very well, what I too have long believed also.

[letsbefair]

When Leonardo de Vinci pointed his telescope to Jupiter. He made notes of its planets circling Jupiter and not the earth. He realized that the Earth was not the center of the universe. That revelation landed him in jail for heresy. Revealing the truth has never been popular. It's far easier and more profitable to just tell people what they want to hear.

[George]

.

Posted by: Dan | Oct 13, 2005 2:43:01 AM

Hey Dan, that is the same thing YOU have seen... Your comment didn't make sense to her...

Posted by: Dummyhunter | Oct 13, 2005 2:50:50 AM

Hey Dummy,

There is a great difference between Dan and you - you "think" that Joran is guilty on basis of " ", whereas Dan mere points out how your "thinking" works.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

This is interesting to me

--> when I mention principles of truth, rather than people, people respond without principles.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/10/natalee_hollowa_25.html#comment-10270158

I came to this site to find more truth about a missing and probably dead young lady. I found some facts being reported here that I found nowhere else. I was very grateful. I said so. I was applauded AND --> I applauded!!. Bravo!!!

I found a lot of other people here trying to sift those facts and find more. Many facts and much truth was uncovered and presented. I kept coming back for more.

Now I'm told it was all for ---> .

It's come to this .

I'm disheartened, offended, insulted, ridiculed and disgusted...

[dave]

DOMPIG: Exactly. And I go by the rule of thumb that, in the first 40 days -- as I said in a different program -- the first 40 days, law enforcement has probably also already spoken to the perpetrators.

So we feel strongly that we have already spoken to them. And there's no one else outside this group that could be involved or responsible.

So sometimes people will ask us that, "Are you not tunnel-visioned? Maybe you should look at other possibilities." Of course. We did that. But we still feel that, every time you go on a path, a different path, that path leads back, comes back to these three boys.

Click for a related story

* 'Abrams Report' homepage
* Dan Abrams' bio

ABRAMS: So you, again, have no other even possible suspects in connection with this case?

DOMPIG: At this time, no.

ABRAMS: And you don't expect to find anyone, do you?

[Frank]

Wow, question the motivations of Jossy Mansur, and other circumstantial fact witnesses, but accept the self-serving statements of Joran and gloss over his obvious motivations. If Joran and the Kalpoes drugged Natalee and she died or they THOUGHT she died AS A RESULT, that is poisoning. In most US jurisdictions that is murder. That is life in prison. That is why the stakes were so high to dispose of the body, and the motivation for Paulus Van Der Sloot to aid in the cover-up. If you make leaps of faith regarding Jossy Mansur's motivations as implying "truths," or "untruths," apply the same logic to Joran and Paulus' motivations. As Paulus stated to the Twitty's, "I would do anything to help my son..." Paulus has no choice, the truth cannot come out otherwise his son's life is ruined. Try to examine the Aruban law on unintentional poisoning of a victim where the drugging was intentional. What research was Paulus doing in the days after the disappearance? Natalee is not important, given the stakes. After all she is dead, Joran is alive.

[Dutchguy]

Impressive piece.

[George]

Misdeeds of the Mansurs are facts; misdeeds of van der Sloots are speculation. Systematic manufacturing of "evidence" by Mansur is obvious; everything Frank attributes to the van der Sloots is fantasy.

[bamaguy11]

Thanks for the commentary. I appreciate you allowing me to partcipate in this blog. I don't see eye-to-eye with you often. However, I think you respect this fact. I don't feel we will ever truly know the truth. I have been very skeptical of comments made by those with their so-called inside sources. Yes, I still sip the koolaid. I'll continue to do so from a Dixie cup.

BTW, Congrats on PSU's perfect start. There's a team in Alabama that is perfect as well. It would be nice to see these teams meet again soon. I have admired Coach Joe Pa for a long time. Good to see him go out in the fashion he deserves.

[Sly2SmoothieNJs]

I see your valid points Dan,. you really put some thought and time into that one, wow.

But, I must say, that when the bros. and Joran lied about dropping her off at the hotel and had those poor innocent security guards arrested, they opened that door for scrutiny themselves. They had no problem at all bold-face lying about an extremely important matter. In my opinion, they are still guilty of more than appears to be true and the way you have turned around meraculously changed your mind about them, really has me concerned.
Think about they were about her being missing, they had no concern what so ever. That was not hear say if I do believe. The fact that these boys are cocky, pompous, and arrogant heathens still stands for me, and I can't just change my mind because you posted a change of heart on your behalf. My judgements are made from their attitudes, their demeanor, and the their lack of empathy regarding her tragic disappearance. Beth Twitty may have some serious facts to get staright, but considering the circumstances, they should be more understanding. It is human nature, even my 9 year old son could figure that out. Their parents as well should be more supportive, and helpful instead of just worrying about their alive and well, boys. Joran just skips off to school like nothing ever happened, well that is ludicrous. the tape may be botched, but Current Affair was not. He is a rude kid, and he has no respect for anyone.
Dan, I love ya,I respect ya, but, I disagree with ya. Hope you understand.
S2S

[VC]

Dan.

As a decidedly left wing person, we have different ways of seeing issues generally. (very).

However your series and this particular post are superb! I have wondered where critical thinking and questioning have disappeared to in this tragedy.

Whether the boys are guilty or not, public allegations of gang rape, murder and kidnapping buttressed by debunked "proof" -jossy's witnesses for e.g - conspiracy of 2 countries governments and law enforcement, and using supposed confessions without supporting documentation on where they came from (given a system where if they were released to the family it would ensure they werent used in a trial)is mind boggling.

To believe the factual accusations trumpeted by MSM (as opposed to believing in guilt or not) without anything but hearsay and questionable sources proven wrong in the past, is akin to believing in the tooth fairy because a quarter appears under the pillow.

Worse the bandwagon took a life of its own that the media is whipping frantically into a frenzy. In case people forget this is A MISSING AND PROBABLY DEAD girl who deserves justice. This includes hopefully convicting whoever is involved

Not people doing everything they can to ensure the impossibility of conviction, by willy nilly leaking things (that if true would be tossed after the leak), to poisoning and pressuring the govt to the point that any arrest becomes suspect, and IF by chance the 3 arent guilty ensuring the one/s who are get away with it.

Beth has been used by the media, by Jossy, by almost everyone she has publicly aligned herself with. Art wood is writing a book, Skeeter holds on to a tape for weeks, Jossy you described well, etc.

It is the first case i can think of where a grieving mother has ended up doing more to hurt the very end result she wants (beyond the return of Natalee alive) and the media is a large part of the reason. In fact its so bad, that many have turned against her actions (not her loss or grief).

We all want justice for Natalee. It is almost impossible now. Thanks to MSM, hangers on like jossy, and yes beth herself. At least in terms of trial and conviction.

Terrific piece of work, keep it up! (also nice to see someone willing and able to change their piont of view once looking at all sides of an issue)

[Geez]

That is why the stakes were so high to dispose of the body, and the motivation for Paulus Van Der Sloot to aid in the cover-up.
Posted by: Frank | Oct 13, 2005 3:55:31 AM

Ehm, Dutch law doesn't really have life prisoning so that would pull your "high stakes" theory out of context.

[Brian]

Great piece! Don't worry about your detractors. This is great journalism even if Dan Rather and some other MSM types belittle bloggers and don't consider them true reporters.

You're about the only person in the media willing to ask the hard questions this case presents, and provide thoughtful analysis and commentary.

[Louiza]

Quote from Dan:It's almost impossible to conclude that given the months of pressure with nothing shaking loose that they had anything to do with her disappearance at all. Yet, even I am not willing to say they are innocent. But someone with some sense at least needs to begin to look in another direction.

I agree with it. It is just sad when people come here to oppose Dan, suggest that Dan is saying those 3 boys are innocent. That is still uncertain, but you have to agree that there are lots more of other possibilities.

[error404]

I agree with the above comment made by Brian.

Great Reporting.

I see parallels between this tragic case and another...

[jolari]

Well stated

[suejagg]

right on. I wish everyone else had enough common sense to see truth...If Beth would take her blinders off and leave these boys alone she might find the clues she needs, but with this vendetta she has against them she not going to foucus any attention elsewhere..And I do feel her pain but she really didnt know her daughter as well as she thinks or she just doesnt want to admit that she isnt as niave as she protrays her to be..I was 18 once and my mom thought I was an angle which I was...but I was also was having fun too, and Beth should think back when she was that age,,,im sure she too was an angle in her moms eyes,But dont blame these boys for a crime unless you have legitiment proof... this claim she has about Natalie thinking she was getting into a taxi ,,,so even if it was or wasnt she new she was getting in a car with 3 guys ...so she wasnt as shy as she would like us to belive..but if she really wants to help her daughter leave these boys alone and put your energy elsewhere....

[Sly2SmoothieNJs]

are you guys gonna lynch me for merely disagreeing?

[farmgirl]

I dont' think it was Leonardo da Vinci with the telescope..think it was Galiano who was imprisoned for upsetting the status quo of knowledge.

But whatever..

I also don't think that NH WALKED the beach from fisherman's hut or anywhere else back to the Hilton.

Just doesnt' compute.

Maybe..if she had been a jogger..maybe..but not likely.

Big night out..lots of drinking and maybe sexual encounter of a weird kind (also not likely ) then a long beach stroll? Just don't think so.

On sand..a short walk is tiring..maybe if she walked along the surf's edge..maybe..but still not likely..Did she have a jacket?

What kind of shoes? Ever walked a distance in sandals? Or barefoot on a beach? Not done.

So back to ..where was she and where did she go and who took her there.

No answers.

[farmgirl]

Dan Rather doesnt' matter..he dead..Dan the new journalism media..

The other so called news men? Proven to be liars..

the Nancy Grace's? They tv tabloid not to be bothered with facts only the facts, my girl.

So this is a place to twist and turn and analyze every tidbit of infomation available to try to reach a concensus of what might have happened to NH.

The Kenndey nephew went free for decade or more..but finally the truth came out..thing is the girls mother knew the truth all along.

So someday we will know what happened..if Joran or PVS are guilty.

IF they innocent we might never learn what happened.

[gagal_05]

Great post, Dan.

When I first started posting here on your website in June, I brought up about the MB kids, about BT going in as the one person police dept and about the AmSouth connection with Jar Twitty and money laudering and Jossy Mansur. I was flamed so badly it was pathetic. Everyone jumped on me telling me how dare I try to say anything bad about MB or BT or Jar Twitty. Even now, there are some that try to steer the posting away from these scenarios.

Seems more and more that these implications that myself and others made at the beginning are coming around now by others. All any of us want is to find out what happened to Natalee and I hope that day will come very soon especially for Dave whom I feel has been done a grave injustice by the Twittys.

[mc]

You lost me at, "After all, we know he has lied before to make it sound like he wasn't a cad who left a girl on a beach - so he said he dropped her at the hotel." An elaborate lie complete with black men in uniforms? This from people who are called the drug guys? Please. Your words are many and your theory is interesting. But as I said, liars lie to avoid what the truth will bring. It is not about weither or not the 3 are
guilty, is only about finding out what they are guilty of.
The proof for me is in the lie and one missing Natalee Holloway.

[mona]

so big deal.... plays right into my theory all along the Mansur family is being usurped on Aruba by another crime family and Paulus Vander Sloot is active in helping eliminate one crime family for another. THAT is why all the protection is being offered him and his son. 2 opposing crime families...happens all the time. Tell me something new....I bet the new mob has something to do with the casinos...and possibly Mr Posner.

[RICK]

Joran and company, guilty as all hell! Of course they know what happened. However, without any proof, no case. We all know that. As before, the Mountain Brook students and chaperones are to take the responsibility for the disappearence of their own Natalee. You just don't travel with a group of your peers to a foreign country and not watch out for each other. The chaperones, in my opinion, are the ones who should be looked at. What the hell were they there for? You mean to tell me they didn't notice any interaction going on between Natalee and Mr. Joran? You're supposed to protect your own, as if they were your kids. Somebody has to keep account, at least one of them. Stand in front of the door of C&C and make sure all are accounted for. That whole MB group has to take some of the responsibility. Even though I can't stand Jug and Beth Twitty, I can't blame them for pursuing the "truth" as to what happened to their, excuse me, her daughter.

[Brooke]

Glad Dan and others see right true the lies perpetrated by Jossy, Jug and Beth along with their accomplices Nancy Grace, Dan Abrams, Geraldo, Greta,
et al. And are reporting the frauds and their stories against innocent people.

Already one will sue Beth probably more to follow.

Twitty's, and others need to be investigated they were to quick to accuse others before there was any proof.

The only one who suffered a great injustice or worse is the victim NH, if a crime was commited against her her mother is to blame for obstructing justice.

Aruba would look like fools if they again prosecuted the innocent, it was because of the Twitty's the wrong people were picked up to begin with. You people who are defending the Twittys need to take a reality pill and attempt to find out the real truth of what happened instead of following like Lemmings anything Beth tells you.

[islandamethyst]

Thanks Dan.
For the first time I am reading where the "confession documents" came from. A 'tip mailbox' at the newspaper?
Has anyone interviewed the four alleged signatories to these documents? I figure a good journalist would be able to gather enough information from them without compromising the case.
It is sad though, that these documents have such an inauspicious source.

[Justice4All]

So where does Dompig fit in all of this?

[Geez]

Dompig told that there are no statements by any of the suspects that Natalee was unconscious during their time with her. Dompig specifically stated that the rumors and statements made by Beth Twitty about her daughter's sexual assault are incorrect. Dompig believes that there may have been "translation errors" in the statements that Beth Twitty received.

[mona]

Aruba would look like fools if they again prosecuted the innocent, it was because of the Twitty's the wrong people were picked up to begin with. You people who are defending the Twittys need to take a reality pill and attempt to find out the real truth of what happened instead of following like Lemmings anything Beth tells you.

Posted by: Brooke | Oct 13, 2005 7:58:06 AM

Defending a corrupt quasi govt is worse. She has a serious contention(a missing person) what does the ALE and lets see what is the name of the govt that is in power have? They will never take the blame for allowing evidence to be destroyed. Is there such a thing as the Dutch Cosa Nostra? Be careful who you sleep with Dan ...or you might be sleeping with fishes too

[Justice4All]

Scarbourgh last nite. Dompig, we invesitgate others, but all roads lead to the three. Check it out.

[Justice4All]

Posted by: mona | Oct 13, 2005 8:14:25 AM

The old saying, if you sleep with dogs you get fleas..

[ChinbeardXIV]

Dan's post makes me see that I'm not the only one who realizes the MSM (a.k.a. Fox) and Jossy are the sole finders of "evidence" in this whole non-case...simply because there is no evidence.

[alw]

Dan, does pissing people off on a daily basis give you joy?

[J]

Dan,

you talk out of both sides of your mouth. You have presented not one shred of evidence to support any of your claims. They are nothing more than your opinion. I think the realty is your out of the information loop and it pisses you off. It's happened before when you arent included then you begin to slam the people that are and attempt to discredit them.

There is and was no cover up in Moutain Brook that is so much bullshit it isnt even funny. It just gives you a way to inflame people. As for Beth leading the investagation in Aruba "get a clue dude" that is one of the most assin statements you have ever made and you have made many.

You have no more information than anyone else does on this case and yet you "pretend" to know about what was signed and not signed and by whom. You "pretend" to know what Joran has said and not said and you go on to rip what you THINK you know with regard to the video shown on the Dr Phil show. The reality you know nothing about it. YOu don't don't know if it was doctored up or not. Yet you "pretend" to know.

It is so apparent that you have been cut out of the loop on this case that your pissed off and not attempting to tell what you know and the reality is you don't know anything. Your motivations are as suspect as those in the MSM. Your sources are far more suspect and far less crediable.

And actually your comment that Natalee was an average teen is way off the mark as well.. She was far more accomplished than the "average" teen. Far more responsible than the "average" teen. Was she drunk that night well the reality is you don't know if she was or not and really taking the information from a bunch of other kids who probably were drunk as being crediable is ridiculous as well. Anyone who has been out drinking knows that everyone things everyone one is drunk. Because one group of kids from Moutainbrook set out to get drug use drugs does not mean the whole group did. Far from it but that is what your try to impley with your so called informaton.

The reality is Dan you don't know anything or anymore than anyone else does on this case. It is so obvious that you have been cut out of the loop and are bitter about it that you do yourself a total injustice and everyone who reads your blog.

[ChinbeardXIV]

Let it roll off your back, Dan! You keep writing the good stuff and we'll keep supporting you...