Pledge Of Allegiance Ruled Unconstitutional By Federal Judge

You're kidding, right? Um, nope, I'm not.

If you think there isn't a culture war going on in this country - you're deluding yourself. Guess this takes the Outrage of the Day Award. My God! <-- Oops sorry - can I say that in public??

Sure - just so long as it isn't a school.

A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday in a case brought by the same atheist whose previous battle against the words "under God" was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court on procedural grounds.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.

h/t readers Cindi and BF

Update:

Karlton, appointed to the Sacramento bench in 1979 by President Carter, wrote that the case concerned "the ongoing struggle as to the role of religion in the civil life of this nation" and added that his opinion "will satisfy no one involved in that debate."

Karlton dismissed claims that the 1954 Congressional legislation inserting the words "under God" was unconstitutional. If his ruling stands, he reasoned that the school children and their parents in the case would not be harmed by the phrase because they would no longer have to recite it at school.

You mean THAT Jimmy Carter??

Comments

[clintcarter]

I thought it was determined some time ago that although the pledge would be said participation was optional? No?
I'm not crazy about the Under God part in schools, but you gotta pick your battles, and this ain't one of them for me.
At the very least it stimulates discussion in the schools, which is where this issue belongs.

[!]

Pledge of Allegiance
I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands
one nation under God,
indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.

[cathy]

sorrect me if i am wrong, but doesn't this esablish aethism
as our state religion....not what those framers had in mind
is it?

But, now the supremes are going to have to adress this issue

[LALady]

God help us....

[bryan]

The pledge used to be "...one nation indivisible...". It was that from the time it was written until after world war two.

Were the "framers" atheists ? Not all of them. Deists - most of them.
Christians - some of them.
Haters of Christianity - at least one of them - if you dont believe it read Common Sense - the phamplet that inspired the revolution. His name is Thomas Payne.

Were the framers LOVERS OF FREEDOM AND THE USA - EVERY GODDAMN ONE OF THEM.

The "framers" greatest complaint was "no taxation without representation" - can you really belive it was not about a God or a god. I am sure Roy More and his ilk want a history rewrite to comply with their fantasy. Just as much as the atheists want a rewrite to fit theirs. It A'int gonna happen.

This court action is stupid. Each state will overcome this idiocy like they are immenent domain fantasy.

What this probably will cause is a reopening of community standards issue applied to "God" instead of pornagraphy. This is an established standard (no pun) that could be used adroitly at state level to overcome this foolishness about pledges and Gods.

What will most likely come of this is a many year debate in court that will accomplish a large waste of money and time that might just be needed to protect the FREEDOM some of us have been shot fighting for. Now thats un American.

Odin, Thor, Zeus, Ishtar, Hephestas, Aphrodite, or Clapton preserve us. With fools like this we take all the help there is.

[Kletus]

I'm disappointed. In an ideal world, I actually WOULD like to see the word "god" out of the pledge. But we're in the wrong political climate for it right now. If anything, this decision makes the pledge a "martyr" in the culture wars. Rev. Dobson has plenty of grist now for making the money mill run.

I agree with Clint. This is a battle I wouldn't have picked.

[Michael]

I personally see nothing wrong with the Pledge the way it is written. I have no problem with the fact that the under God part is there. It is my preference and right (God given)to affirm and believe that this is one nation, under God- and my right to affirm it wherever I may be- school or the mall or wherever. Just as it is Mr Atheists' right (whomever gave it to him)to affirm whatever he believes or doesn't believe, wherever he may happen to be. We both (Mr. Atheist and I) will have to deal with our beliefs and faiths (or lack thereof) when the time comes.
I wonder if Mr. Atheist has any trouble spending any of the money he makes, since "In God We Trust"...He shouldn't have the right to even touch it.

[Sam]

I had just read this on the aol news and there was a poll going on. When I read the poll results it was 79% for keeping the pledge as is. So why in this country are we allowing the few to control the many?
I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands
One nation under GOD, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

So the freedoms we have in this country should allow the students who are Atheist to not recite
the pledge and not say prayers but get it right they are not the majority. So let us the MAJORITY have our freedom too.
Sam

[DeeDee]

Bryan: What will most likely come of this is a many year debate in court that will accomplish a large waste of money and time that might just be needed to protect the FREEDOM some of us have been shot fighting for. Now thats un American. I completely agree with this part of your post but thank God you didn't die when you were shot. He may not take lightly you Damning things or people on His behalf. Thank you for your service!

[TheAlamo]

So why in this country are we allowing the few to control the many?

Posted by: Sam | Sep 14, 2005 5:22:24 PM

Been that way for the last 30 years. As long as they can keep pretending we are a democracy, we will continue the slide into oblivion.

Not many put the whole picture together. They look at an event as a separate happening, but fail to the catastrophic connections between events.
Like what would this have to to with illegal immigration? Or, the government's illegal stoppage of first amendment rights during Katrina?

Nah, they are separate accidents of nature. Wouldn't you think if they were "accidents" there would occaisionally be a few in favor of America and the American way of life?

[chickadee]

Sam: Agreed! What about MY freedom, as an American, to pledge My allegience to My country and MY God? Where does that leave me? I don't WANT to pledge to my country without pledging to my God, also. So, how are my rights being served in this new change? Seems to me a FEW are speaking for the MANY!!!!!! ckd

[oldtimer]

The gut who filled this suit is an atheist,he did not want his daughter who he does not even have custody of to say the pledge,and his daughter has no problem saying the pledge and she is a Christian. Think it is more like a family battle than a Fed battle.

[TheAlamo]

Along those same lines....some of us are more equal than others.
Ring a bell?

Only SOME people have rights, and if you violate THEIRS you're history...but whatever they do is OKAY!
Marx would be so proud.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/aug/05080502.html

[TheAlamo]

Sam: Agreed! What about MY freedom, as an American, to pledge My allegience to My country and MY God? Where does that leave me? I don't WANT to pledge to my country without pledging to my God, also. So, how are my rights being served in this new change? Seems to me a FEW are speaking for the MANY!!!!!! ckd

Posted by: chickadee | Sep 14, 2005 5:39:54 PM

No, no...you are not getting it yet. Some are more equal than others. Some can bash their way into our lives without our request because it is their right, but.....
Talk about doublespeak, lies and "freedom"

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/aug/05080502.html

[TheAlamo]

Along those same lines....some of us are more equal than others.
Ring a bell?

Only SOME people have rights, and if you violate THEIRS you're history...but whatever they do is OKAY!
Marx would be so proud.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/aug/05080502.html

[TheAlamo]

sorry, did not mean to post twice on the same thing, but on my screen the first one did not go through, and a couple of others had posted so I changed the post and posted again. The first one did not appear on my screen until the second one did.

My apologies.

[ManWith2Dogs]

God does not belong in the public schools except as a topic of education, and then only if God is compared to other alternatives including atheism. That's the way our country is. We are not supposed to be a religeous country. Thank God. Oops. I think, for the most part, the term "God" is used in our language as a figure of speech, which we cannot realistically right laws about. Of course in the Pledge of Allegiance it is not used as a figure of speech but rather as a religeous statement. It should not be there. I have never liked it. Even as a kid I thought it was discriminatory.

[New Creature]

I never rant...in fact, I rarely post. But will you give me this one little opportunity to vent, and excercise my right to speak frankly??? Thanks.

SOME PEOPLE ARE SUCH WHINeY BABIES! GIVE ME A BREAK??? The WORD "God" offends you???? Oh my goodness. PUUUHHH-LEEEEZE! Man, I have to listen to loads of crap that I don't agree with, but you know what??? I'm not making a federal case over it. Know why??? I've got so much more to do.

I'm ticked off that some much time and energy has been spent on this over the past few years....$$$ that could be changing things that matter!

Atlas has held the world on his shoulders all over the United States of America in advertising and Architectue...doesn't even cause this conservative christian to flench. Know why??? Cause I GET IT!!!

ARGHHHHH!

[k.jeanne]

YET, I would be willing to bet 9/10th of school kids from about the 3rd grade on use "God" at least 20 times each day. As in: "OH GOD, OH MY GOD" or some combination. So shall we say that is unconstitutional? Where does it end?

[FloridaPatty]

Oh for pete's sake.

Half the kids don't say it anyway, more than that don't place their hand on their heart.

I should know.

[lrgarcia210]

So what is the problem now? You don't believe in God?

So how do you think you got here besides your parents and their wild thing, honestly where do you come from.

Changing the pledge of allegiance will definitely not get you any future votes from me.

And hopefully when you die, God will remember that you took the words under God out of the pledge of allegiance, and think that he can scratch your name out of the entry list to heaven.

Now before all of you idiots come back with a retort, remember, I believe in God, and it should stay in the pledge of allegiance. Just don't say the words under god, when you say the pledge, and when that lightning strikes you, I will not be anywhere near you.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Justice for all means we have the right to leave it as it stands.

[usmcmom]

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This is what the Amendment ACTUALLY states >>>

Now this is what the Judge in his decision stated,

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

"Affirming God" is not "Establishing a Religion." Without knowledge and commitment to honor the truth of the "intent" of the framers, we are now at the mercy of a bunch of ill-informed, idealogically-driven members of the Judiciary. Add this travesty to the ill-informed members of the Congress, State/Local governments, and media regarding governmental responsiblity during the recent Katrina disaster, and we have a mess on our hands.

Remember the saying. "Those who do not remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."

I once read a revised quote...."Those who do not remember the past are condemned, period."

Degrees in math and science may make you rich,.. but only knowledge of your history will give you the power to keep the government out of your home, church/synagogue, and public life.

[bhm mom too]

Posted by: usmcmom | Sep 14, 2005 7:51:05 PM

Once again, GREAT post, usmcmom

[cc]

The problem is that it's kids, and if it weren't for the hammering of religion into *children's* heads, most of them would discontinue believing in the invisible man in the sky throwing down judgments about the same time they quit believing in the little man at the north pole throwing down presents.

Spend that time teaching instead of indoctrinating and the country would be alot better off.

[Dan]

The core issue aside, I just wanted to say how pleased I am at having such an intelligent group of commenters here - regardless of their positions.

[GrannyToad]

I was a kid myself when they changed the Pledge of Allegiance June 14, 1954 and questioned it then. Why can't it be put it back like it was?

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Those words still hold necessary and sufficient eloquence for me.

[!]

As long as there is unrest in the world, there will be prayer in our nation.

As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in our public schools.

"under God" works for me

[callmeBetty]

I agree Granny. I think the intent of the pledge was clearer as well. To honor God, How about?

One Nation INDIVISIBLE, with Liberty and Justice for ALL.
Praise _____________ (fill in blank) Citizens choice of name for God, subject of worship.

How about just adding an Amen or something afterwards? Could be optional?

These are not life and death issues, they are courtesies............. a show of respect for the many diverse cultures that enrich our country and their contributions to our society.

[!]

1st Amendment:
[Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.]

I have no problem with the words “under God” being in the pledge. It is my privilege to recite those words or not, as guaranteed by the first amendment.

Our ancestors (American/Revolution) fought to ensure freedom for us. Freedom from religious persecution among other things. Our 1st amendment (the establishment clause) is interpreted so differently among liberals- democrats, conservatives- republicans, and among religious leaders and those who demand a separation of church and state (for those who don’t know--the phrase Separation of Church and State is NOT part of the constitution)

NO LAW RESPECING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION: Congress will not tell anyone whom to worship or believe in, or even to force anyone to believe or worship in anything.

OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF: Congress can not forbid anyone from speaking their mind and their beliefs. Nor can congress force anyone to speak things they don’t believe—such as reciting the pledge of allegiance with the reference to God. What that means is, if you don’t believe it – you don’t have to say it.

…PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES: This give those who believe the phrase “under God” should be removed the opportunity to ask that it be so and to follow the proceedings of the laws and court systems to attempt their goal of removal.

Personally, I think the whole thing is silly and a waste of our time and tax dollars. If you don’t believe – don’t say it. Besides, no matter what our own beliefs, it is up to us to teach our children and open their mind, and what a great way to open a discussion of God and religion than to have your kid come home and say “what does this mean…..” and question the term. Even if you and your child don’t believe in God, learning about others beliefs and what goes on in the world is part of a child’s education.

[callmeBetty]

It's not really fair to a seven year old to "opt out" of learning to love their country and pledge support because of an objection to the two words that were added only fifty years ago.

And if that child substitutes the word 'Allah' for God during recitation of this oath - a basic equivalent to Muslims, then what? Are you going to stand guard on the playground while this child is asked why they don't belive in God by some ignorant bully?

[cdb]

The United States was founded on a Judao Christian belief system.
When the salt is taken from earth the earth will fall.When God is removed from our counrty our counrty will fall.

[Robert]

I have ancestors and relatives who fought in every war the United States has ever engaged in and from what I know of them they did not fight, bleed or die for this country as it exists today. The damn courts are composed of tyrants and somehow there has to be some control on them. The famous checks and balences is simply not working. We are at the mercy of a bunch of social engineers that have not the slightest knowledge of American history and custom.

[bob]

Get these idiot judges out of our Country

[!]

GOD BLESS AMERICA!
The faith of the Founding Fathers. America's Christian Heritage.

I have been blessed by God to live in such a wonderful country. When America is at its worst, she is still far above all the other nations of the world. Many times I lament at what has happened to us as a country. In the past 50 years we have seen huge increases in violent crimes, drug use, teenage pregnancy, and divorce. We have also seen God taken out of our schools, our courtrooms, and our workplaces. In 1973 it became legal to murder an unborn baby out of convenience for the mom, and to protect her "rights" without any discussion of the babies' rights. The sins of our nation rise as high as the heavens. Pornography, adultery, and homosexuality have become accepted ways to express our God-given sensual desires. Rape, murder, and rage have filled our streets, and our schools. We have left the standard. We have chosen our own path. Yet in spite of all this I am still very proud to call myself an American. America has the greatest resources on planet earth for helping those in need. We are feeding starving families in Africa, Asia, and elsewhere. We free those who were once captives. We promote democracy, freedom, and peace. We restrain the use of our might by seeking not to conquer peoples, but to liberate them, help them, and support them. We have befriended Israel as she stands against a wall of opposition. We have sacrificed our own sons and daughters so that the world can know peace, prosperity, and happiness. Our Founders were led by God Almighty to accomplish the establishment of a nation unlike none ever seen before, and likely never to be seen again. In a few short years, young America stunned the world with her productivity, education, and technology, and she continues to lead the world in industry, education, technology, and prosperity. I love Jesus for not only dying for me, but for moving in the hearts of men and women, Christian men and women, to establish this nation that I live in today. Despite all our sins, there is still hope. Our God is slow to anger and is abounding in love and faithfulness. If we will but seek Him, we can be greater than we are today. How great a privilege it is to be an American! God Bless America!!

[!]

http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html

The above link goes to the Pledge of Allegiance by Red Skelton. This is worth listening to/reading for everyone.

Below is a letter from President Jefferson in response to a letter from the Baptists in Danbury, CT. This is where the phrase “separation of church and state” came from.

Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut were persecuted because they were not part of the Congretationalist establishment in that state.
On January 1, 1802, in response to the letter from the Danbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Gentlemen:
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which are so good to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessings of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
Thomas Jefferson

[!]

Nobody, including congress, had a problem with prayer right after 9-11. They even had a prayer on TV!!! Now that that is over and we 'don't need God anymore' all of this crap starts. Un friggin believable!!!

Someone needs to feed that man to the sharks.
A real scumbag piece of crap !

[GrannyToad]

The [Aruban] people must elect their own leaders that can honestly deal with their mistakes and set the island on a new course.
Posted by: wreck | Sep 14, 2005 10:29:09 PM

wreck, Arubans are not given that opportunity, didn't you know? All they're voting for is their little Parliament which is like a city or county government.

That is ALL they get. All others are Holland appointees from a government in which they have no part.

Arubans are not part of a participant democracy of, for, and by the people.

[cdb]

Will the real ! please step forward

[!]

A great link for anyone interested in reading about our govenment and religion.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

[callmeBetty]

Jeesh

I think I'll walk down to the 7/11 and kiss Ahmed for not killing me today. LOL :)

[bryan]

I should apologize to dee dee but as my post indicates which god or God was offended. I may be a Jew. I may be a druid - there are many in Wisconsin and Michigan. I could adopt the view that taking God's name in vain has nothing to do with the use of Goddamn but rather seeking to impose my religion upon a person in the guise of a law of the land which is absolutely in direct opposition to that religions stated belief in free will and the action of the spirit of God in
the changing of heart and/or mind. If proponents of religion were as familiar with their own beliefs as they pretend to be and as diligent in studying and obeying the tenets of their own beliefs the present argument would never have been an issue.

The United States was founded on a Judao Christian belief system.
Not factual. Jefferson was a deist - a humanist (adherent of Descarte and Locke)
Franklin quote "Build churches , I would rather build light houses". This from a man who in essence and fact abandoned his wife and children in the US for a long term liason with several French women in political circles.
Read Thomas Payne if you want the view of a founding father diametrically opposed to Christianity. His 11,000 page book takes Christianity of his day to task on every tenet and action.

The variety of belief in the founding fathers was as various as it is today.

Both sides of this argument have become entrapped in their own conceit that their position is the poor abused and down trodden. Oh lawd have mercy.

The Pilgrims were forced out and ran away from a Catholic King who refused to allow the Protestants a right to worship as they saw fit. The Protestants in turn killed God knows how many heathern American Indians in their "divine purpose" to subdue the land for themselves. The Protestants also did a right good job of persecuting other Christain groups if they did not agree with their watys - like the Shakers, Amish, Morman etc.

Just based on this short history what religion do we choose as the state religion. Islam has a strong hold on several governments and if we adopt a state religion we open the door for one day allowing Islam to rule us. What a lovely thought.

If we have to pick a religion for the US choose US Democracy and Capitalism. These work.

[joe]

The level of reasoning in these messages is ridiculous. I guess conservatives are trying to change what "neutrality" means. Now, if the government doesn't mention your choice of religion, it's being discriminatory. Answer me this: why is there no reference to God in the Constitution? If the Founders saw fit to write it without throwing in "So help me God", were they being discriminatory? They weren't; they were being neutral.

How would you like it if Congress changed it to "under secularism"? So if you don't like it, you can just sit quietly while everyone says it, ok? Ha ha: didn't think of that, did you? That's the problem with you conservative whackos: you think rules only apply to other people.

[joe]

Oh by the way, believing in religion is like believing in UFOs. If you really think 2000 years ago some guy walked on water, you need help.

JESUS SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABORTED!!!!