Katrina: But It's In The News

Seems I have been hearing a lot of talk about Bush's funding for the Army Corp Of Engineers - cuts, I believe is the word. Not specifically, but you do realize how budget cuts often work in Washington? They don't usually reduce the budget from the previous year, what they do is reduce the additional spending for the coming year. You'll see some use the word trim, which is a more honest word. But the last time anyone in Washington cut a budget probably had to do with their kids allowance after they dinged the Porsche while backing it out of the garage.

So, did you know this?  - WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal the Army Corps of Engineers had launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control.

or this? - Even if fully funded the day Bush took office, New Orleans would have flooded. If you answered no, than maybe you'll want to read the rest.

Comments

[ustt]

so Dan.........why isn't anybody talking about the 2 empty grain barges that ran into the levy that caused the flooding.

This was on national TV.
The man who told it was an old black man who sat on his porch and saw the whole thing.

Yet the news media shut the story down.

Also, the 3 young guys who made up press passes and went to the convention and evacuated "hostages" (and I think I use the word appropriately here). They were interviewed on CNN by that real laid back interviewer's whose name escapes me at the moment.

The guys said they could not believe how
1. Easy it was to get to the convention center.
(they took out as many as they could in the humV they took there)
2. That nobody had taken these folks food or water for Days!
3. That the ONLY REASON the people were NOT leaving the convention center was THE NATIONAL GUARD!.

I watched the interview myself.

The only thing I can see that happened in New Orleans besides that somebody ran 2 barges into a perfectly good levy (on purpose/not on purpose?) was NO EVACUATION PLAN WAS MOBILIZED.

Are they telling us there was no contingency plan in place to evacuate people of New Orleans if a levy broke?

oh yeah, also, the young men also mentioned they say many many many many EMPTY SCHOOL BUSES going the OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF THE CONVENTION CENTER as they were trying to take people out of the center themselves.

Got any ideas about these 3 things?
1. Grain barges hitting the levy - what happened to the interview?
2. Convention center hostages not being let out and held hostage by NATIONAL GUARD --oh yeah, word on the street was TO GO TO THE CONVENTION CENTER...and it wasn't until after the people got there they found they couldn't leave...was this the HOTEL WHERE YOU CHECK IN BUT NEVER CHECK OUT?
3. Why were all the EMPTY buses going the other way?

[TheAlamo]

Katrina: But It's In The News

Seems I have been hearing a lot of talk about Bush's funding for the Army Corp Of Engineers - cuts, I believe is the word. Not specifically, but you do realize how budget cuts often work in Washington? They don't usually reduce the budget from the previous year, what they do is reduce the additional spending for the coming year. You'll see some use the word trim, which is a more honest word. But the last time anyone in Washington cut a budget probably had to do with their kids allowance after they dinged the Porsche while backing it out of the garage.

So, did you know this? - WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal the Army Corps of Engineers had launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control.

or this? - Even if fully funded the day Bush took office, New Orleans would have flooded. If you answered no, than maybe you'll want to read the rest.

Posted by Dan in Hurricane Katrina | Permalink

Don't mean to be disrespectful to you Dan, but....the President has no authority in this matter anyway. To blame, or laud the president in this instance is a mistake.
Congress is the key to all funding. Legally, all the executive branch can do is make requests.
The president, under our system of government, should have little or nothing to say. It is sad, and scary to see our citizens continually looking to one man for the answers. It only takes a few more steps to go to a complete totalitarian system--and we have been moving that direction at breakneck speed during the Clinton/Bush administrations. This hurricane fiasco is just one other example of the failure of central government. (although it is clear that La, officials should shoulder much of the levee ire. As stated earlier, why didn't they take a city that was 40% welfare and make those able, work for their handouts? They could have repaired the levee, with little additional expenditures by the tax payer since welfare recipients already are receiving money, and they would have worked for it instead of watching tv.)
Bush is not to blame--congress is on the national level, and the state officials of La. at the local level--first.

[Captain Joe]

Cut by whom? Congress, that's whom. And then trimmed some more by local politicians who skimmed money for their pork projects.

[NevadaMom]

Dan,

Keep up the good work. I think that this whole tragedy (other than mother nature)can be traced all the agencies involved but the state and local authorities (if they ever were...authorities are most highly responsible).
If a mayor or governor knows that there are a large number of very poor citizens in their cities/counties and that they need to provide a plan or method for evacuation for those that a. will not evacuate without all of their extended families
b. do not have the cash to evacuate
c. do not understand the need to evacuate
d. do not trust government at any level
e. physically can not evacuate
f. do not have transportation
g. other

Why was there not a plan to provide for these citizens who are the most reliant on social services? This is not a federal responsibility no matter what administration.

Katrina will uncover tons of corruption but only if it is investigated in a non partisan way. I heard the Lt. Gov of LA on NPR (sorry) and never once after pointed questions did he admit to state or local culpability. By the way his sister is the senator and I believe his dad was a long time mayor of NO. I may have misquoted or gotten some of these facts wrong but if the family relationships are correct, who among others done the big easy wrong?

[*flo*]

totalitarian system--and we have been moving that direction at breakneck speed during the Clinton/Bush administrations.
Posted by: TheAlamo | Sep 8, 2005 4:21:52 PM

My apology Dan,
Alamo, you as a few others in other Topic dicussions have not much confidence in US gov't, "totalitariam", too many GOOD lawmakers/citizens out there to police this up;) by the way, your email doesn't work

[ellewoods]

This was just forwarded to me (I didn't write it so no one bash me)-hope it hasn't already been posted. It summarizes the events. The most interesting is how Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center started making phone calls. Our local paper had an interview with him in which he stated that he called the governors of the affected areas on the Saturday evening prior to landfall.

Subject: THE BATTLE OVER NEW ORLEANS

Assuming this is true, it is a powerful message to all the weeping,
whining liberal Bush haters in the country. To the President's credit,
unlike his enemies, he has chosen not to submit this data to the public at
this time and further fuel the political furor. Every concerned American
needs to see this message.

Here is something else that Tim Russert forgot.

On Friday night before the storm hit, Max Mayfield of the National
Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco
personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they
said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240
miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.

President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with
his advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required
for a state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the
Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act). Just before
midnight Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded
with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the
military could legally begin mobilization and call up. He was told that they
didn't think it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet.
After the President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her
staff to discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It
was decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as
if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited
in.

Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and
Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance,
that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory
evacuation.

After a personal plea from the President, Nagin agreed to order an
evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the
governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing
federal action. In frustration the President declared the area a national
disaster area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin
some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal
advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to
bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid
before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had
not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into
question to use before the disaster.

Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to NO for
levee construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina
and support the gambling ships. Toss in the investigation that will look
into why the emergency preparedness plan submitted to the federal government
for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in
fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal
funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were
never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document
implies that they were.

The suffering people of NO need to be asking some hard questions as
do we all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the
multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday
which further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining
states. Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should have
commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own
emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his
disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation
busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.

This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been
destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of
thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be
pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local
corruption and incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can
start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the
mistakes to avoid them in the future.

[Kathleen]

After a personal plea from the President, Nagin agreed to order an evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation,...(snipped)

Posted by: ellewoods | Sep 8, 2005 6:01:36 PM

ellewoods, yes there WAS a FULL mandatory evacuation order issued at 10:30am on Sept. 28. Those of us who lived above NO were told not to get on the highways unless and until we were being mandatory evacuated also, in order for the NO area residents to be able to get out more quickly. I posted the following as soon as it was locally broadcast.

Update Dan:

The first ever mandatory evacuation has just been issued for ALL of New Orleans...EVERYONE is ordered to leave. The Superdome is being designated as "a refuge of last resort".

Posted by: Kathleen | Aug 28, 2005 10:32:55 AM

[Dan]

Kathleen - Yes I heard that on TV as I said in the post - but read this:

By mid-afternoon, officials in Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, Lafourche, Terrebonne and Jefferson parishes had called for voluntary or mandatory evacuations.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin followed at 5 p.m., issuing a voluntary evacuation.

Nagin said late Saturday that he's having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses.

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml

[ellewoods]

Kathleen-as I mentioned at the top of that post I didn't write it. It was forwarded to me in an email. I think that sentence was in reference to the evacuation being "voluntary" on Saturday, before it was changed to mandatory on Sunday. MSM has reported that Nagin didn't know if he had the authority to issue a mandatory evacuation (I guess he got someone to check overnight!)

[Kathleen]

as for the levees..

I live next to the Miss. River levee, actually the "river road" is the only thing that separates my property from it and the river.

In the spring time, with the "thaw out" of the northern states, the Miss. River often rises to the VERY top of the levee here, and the high water, along with river traffic--CONSTANT ships, tugs, riverboats, barges, etc.--causes YEARLY erosion of the river bank, weakening of the levees, and levee seepage.

Keeping abreast of levee problems is an ONGOING concern here...it is NOT a "one-time give us the money to fix it up" type of thing....hence, the need for YEARLY funding of levee projects. The "Levee Board" and the Army Corps of Engineers are VERY necessary and important organizations here.

As for "run-away" barges and ships even, that is a very common occurence here, ustt. And yes, they cause a lot of damage, such as the levee breeches that occurred during and after Hurricane Katrina. During our week of local tv 24/7 "aftermath coverage", there was indeed video being shown of barges sitting atop levees in the lower-lying areas. Why it seems to have been hushed up, I wish I knew. I suppose it makes a much better media story to place blame elsewhere.

[TheAlamo]

totalitarian system--and we have been moving that direction at breakneck speed during the Clinton/Bush administrations.
Posted by: TheAlamo | Sep 8, 2005 4:21:52 PM

My apology Dan,
Alamo, you as a few others in other Topic dicussions have not much confidence in US gov't, "totalitariam", too many GOOD lawmakers/citizens out there to police this up;) by the way, your email doesn't work

Posted by: *flo* | Sep 8, 2005 5:29:04 PM

You are right flo, I don't. When government ursurps its legal place in our society I am not pleased--and they always use some "emergency" to place things in effect--then leave them in place.
One need only to have lived for awhile to the see the results of more and more federal control. Unfortunately, people man positions of government. People have the uncanny ability to look out for "self" first--no matter what their occupation. Corruption is ALWAYS rampant in a socialist society--there is no other way.

This is exactly WHY the founders set up a VERY limited federal government, and instead gave the "power" to the states and to the people. The job of the federal government is simple: 1. Protect the nation against foreign aggression, i.e.--war.
2. Ensure the rights of the people to live life unfettered by criminals, and enforce the Bill of Rights--for all.
PERIOD.

When government gets into the "providing" business, you have moved from a free society, free market based, to a socialist socity--failure bound.
In order to "provide" government has to steal. They do so by force. Try not paying any of your taxes. They (gov.) do not produce anything, therefore they have to use force to steal money from those who work...and give it to those who do not. This of course, gets them votes, and keeps them in office. On the other side of the ledger the big corps donate millions to their campaigns to ensure ongoing "favor" as well. If you actually think the "little man" has a voice in America any longer, try running for president, or even governor, if you are not rich...AND "well connected." Ain't gonna happen!

In any event, our government provides that the states and the people should be handling this mess--as it was in times past. And in times past you did not see the bungling from bureaucrats either using the situatioon as a power play, or for their own agrandisement. Of course, that takes morality, something that seems to be lacking in government these days, and is, in fact almost a "given" (corruption) to get anywhere in government.

All we need do is go back and read WHY the founders placed the Bill of Rights and contraints on the government to see the right thing to do. But it is EASIER to let someone else do it--and it costs more too!
Is it some conspiracy? Don't know...don't care, the results are the same whether by plan, or accident. How we came to this makes no difference--we are there. BTW if you think we are free try something small, like building a storeroom on your OWN property, or go fish without a "license". No we are FAR from what this country was even 20 years ago. Thomas Jefferson must be throwing up in his tomb.

My email doesn't work because that is not it. Another poster on here, who I won't mention has sent vicious attacks to my email. They just cannot understand why I won't "submit" to "normal" thinking. Guess I am just one of those free market, less government people. However, I do not think you are the same, so if you will leave an email address that I can contact you by I will be happy to send you mine. Thanks for your comments flo--you are always courteous,...it is appreciated!

[Whistmo]

Grain barges? tEll me MOre.

[ustt]

Why it seems to have been hushed up, I wish I knew. I suppose it makes a much better media story to place blame elsewhere.

Posted by: Kathleen | Sep 8, 2005 7:31:53 PM

__________

Kathleen.........big money protects big money......better to have the tax payers pay for the liability than a private company I guess.

huh

otherwise some big company would go belly-up on this one. Wonder which grain barges it was this time?

I am not signed up with Wall Street Journal. Somebody says it was covered about the barges in there today.

The only story I found in WSJ showed to me that New Orleans was in no way prepared for a breach....for gawd sake they called Exxon and 11 poor souls reported to try to save the city of New Orleans that was flooding at a foot of water an hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

read this by reporter Susan Warren of WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB112593035219631806-Bp9GuPN8MII7hREA7mmokQwQ0eI_20051005,00.html?mod=tff_article

[!]

The whole ordeal is disgusting as hell. I hope the many responsible in all levels are made to admit their wrongs and I sure as hell hope the state gets rid of the Governor they have. Still today that poor excuse of a governor continues to fight with the Mayor. TOTALLY UNREAL !!
Where did these people come from ??

[Kathleen]

Dan and ellewoods, I remember the two days preceeding the storm, and of the many other parishes issuing mandatorys first. I was sitting here waiting for mine to issue one. And yes, I fully and completely 100% agree that Mayor Nagin SHOULD have issued the mandatory much sooner than he did.

My intent was/is to clear up the totally erroneous statements that a "full mandatory" evac. was NEVER ordered, because it is simply not true that one "never was" at ANY time.

It is upsetting to constantly be reading and hearing "on the street"--even from some NO residents themselves--that Mayor Nagin, at NO time, EVER called for a full mandatory evacuation.

Dan, perhaps this is just all too personal and emotional for me as I have lived in--and loved--south La.(much of which is now non-existent) for all of my 50 years. For now, I think I should just stop commenting and go back to being one of your silent readers, as it is instinct for me to want to defend my state and it's people in the "blame game".

[ustt]

I have just read the stats on how much traffic was on the Mississippi river from as far back as the time in 1996 when the RIVERWALK shopping mall was rammed by a GRAIN BARGE.

At that time listen to this: NOW REMEMBER WHAT I HAVE POSTED BELOW IS REFERENCE TO 1996 RIVERWALK...the point is....look at how much traffic of barges and boats goes on...

HOW COULD THEY NOT BE PREPARED FOR A BREACH IN LEVEES IN NEW ORLEANS??????
************************

"The point of the accident is considered the most dangerous stretch of the Mississippi River, traveled by an average of 400 ships a day.

``We're talking about a busier stretch of water than New York harbor,'' said Doc Hawley, who has been a tour boat captain for 20 years.

``It's the only place on the river that actually has traffic lights to control the traffic.'' "

...

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/121596/freighter.html

[Cindi in PA]

Very well put Alamo. Government red tape, pay the piper. One example, try going to court on an expired vehicle registration, or driving without a license fine and argue the laws set by our constitution, give each of us a right to drive, free of license, registration taxes, tolls and insurance.
Several weeks ago while working at our county court house, I could no longer stand looking at the drapes hanging in the second floor rotunda, ripped, faded, sad display of county pride. After all first impressions do matter. I called one of our newest commissioners over and said.....Jim...this is a disgrace, he agreed and said he would have them taken down. Two weeks ago I went back for a job interview, curtains still up. I stopped by his office and was told, it has to be brought up in the agenda at the next public meeting. Which means, instead of maintenance taking the drapes down, they first have to have a vote, then they will take bids, call in an outside contractor, pay them thousands of dollars and bill the taxpayers. Why? because 30 years ago, taxpayer money paid for those drapes, if they simply remove them, Mr. Greenjeans lurking in the corner will file a lawsuit.

It is the red tape that destroyed NO and so many lives. Now we will have this huge investigation, like the 9/11 commission nothing will be solved, more laws will be put into place, and for a short time, Americans will think everything is OK. All one needs to do is attend a local town hall meeting, or a school board meeting for even the slightest glimpse of government in action. Question is, after all these years of letting things get out of hand, how do we even begin to make it right?

[ellewoods]

I realize that I have confused many into thinking this was my writing/opinion what have you by not putting quotation marks around that article that was emailed to me. As I mentioned before, I assume the one sentence in there addresses the Saturday order "before it was changed to mandatory on Sunday". I don't think anyone questions that it did end up eventually being mandatory. I just wanted to share something I found interest in reading.

Again, sorry if I am leading anyone wrong. I get in a hurry typing while fighting MY computer away from my 11 year old who thinks it is hers! I know that the intent of the written word is oftentimes not what is perceived by the reader.

BTW, I saw at one collection point today that they do not want anymore clothes but DO want food. This place is taking items to the Mississippi gulf coast so that may not be the case for those in other parts. Just sharing that info.

Our main news station and Lowes had a HUGE drive for the Red Cross yesterday. Everyone in town drove through the parking lot of Lowes to deposit money. They are still counting but as of this evening we raised $980,000 and they expect the final number to be over $1 mill!!!!!!!!! And that number will double as it will be matched by Lowes!! Hurricane Ivan only raised $100,000 from the same drive last year and we got hit by that one!

[*flo*]

Posted by: TheAlamo | Sep 8, 2005 7:39:06 PM

Posted by: ! | Sep 8, 2005 8:20:58 PM

Trust me...americans have it made;)...just waiting for these investigations to start....

Alamo... click on my name...the email address should come up

[ellewoods]

Hey Kathleen-meant to say, please don't stop posting. I think it is important to share your viewpoint. Meanwhile, I hope that you have a safe haven until all is well at your home!

Peace be with you!

[*flo*]

like the 9/11 commission nothing will be solved, more laws will be put into place, and for a short time, Americans will think everything is OK. All one needs to do is attend a local town hall meeting, or a school board meeting for even the slightest glimpse of government in action. Question is, after all these years of letting things get out of hand, how do we even begin to make it right?

Posted by: Cindi in PA | Sep 8, 2005 8:52:59 PM

Starts with people like us, more the merrier, qualified representation, freedom of speech, ... sometimes the "good old boy" needs to be knocked off the podium to get their attention or get things right, great thing about this, its your right as an america to contest

[*flo*]

For now, I think I should just stop commenting and go back to being one of your silent readers, as it is instinct for me to want to defend my state and it's people in the "blame game".

Posted by: Kathleen | Sep 8, 2005 8:30:31 PM

Your views are just important as the next person, hang in there, many of us here like to get as close to truth as one can...:)

[ustt]

I believe the simple gripe should be

WHERE WAS THE EVACUATION PLAN TO EVACUATE

NEW ORLEANS IF A LEVEE BROKE.

The people were out of their houses
after the hurricane and things were going
fine..........

then the levee was breached (evidently in several
places)........and all he^^ broke loose.

water coming in at 1 foot an hour
_____________

SO LOUISIANA...........how could you not have had

an immediate evacuation plan?>
look at the traffic on the mississippi and on the lake!

Doesn't that give NO a clue?
_______________

The rest of the story is destruction
down on the coast of Mississippi, Alabama
which is honest hurricane damage.

but the carnage - true carnage - was New Orleans
and that was SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE APPEARS TO HAVE
BEEN NO

PLAN!

NOW LET'S POINT SOME FINGERS.

[TheAlamo]

It is the red tape that destroyed NO and so many lives. Now we will have this huge investigation, like the 9/11 commission nothing will be solved, more laws will be put into place, and for a short time, Americans will think everything is OK. All one needs to do is attend a local town hall meeting, or a school board meeting for even the slightest glimpse of government in action. Question is, after all these years of letting things get out of hand, how do we even begin to make it right?

Posted by: Cindi in PA | Sep 8, 2005 8:52:59 PM

Thank you Cindi, that was nice of you.
Phew! How to make it right? I actually used to be heavily involved in local politics but got tired of the "good ole boy" scenario and realized that until we actually legitimized more than two parties, we were doomed. Of course there are other parties, but the media ignore them, and they are not even invited to participate in debates with the "status quo" people.

I think if we can force recognition of legitimate additional parties then that is a step in the right direction. This is where the folks on the ground can use their voice to the media to give equal coverage to candidates--no matter what party they belong to.

Ron Paul is a Texas congressman who will not vote for anything that is un-consitiutional He now has about 23 other congressmen educated on the constitution, and what they have been doing to it, and has effected some change--but not enough. If he can continue to stay in office and lead--then with the actual education of our elected officials--there might actually be a chance. Ron Paul is a republican. To show you how bad the situation is though, his own republican party contributed millions to his democratic opponent and tried to unseat him in the last election. As you can tell, there is little distinction between demo/repub and many are there for self only. Hopefully, more good people will run, especially those who will take the time to read and learn the Constitution. It was written by farmers and merchants, and was written for the common man--so no one should have a problem understanding its simple language.
thank you for the compliment--it is appreciated!

[TheAlamo]

Posted by: ! | Sep 8, 2005 8:20:58 PM

Trust me...americans have it made;)...just waiting for these investigations to start....

Alamo... click on my name...the email address should come up

Posted by: *flo* | Sep 8, 2005 9:02:19 PM

Should be there!

[ustt]

p.s.

I wish the grumping would stop at people not

having EVACUATED from New Orleans.

The hurricane is not what caused this horrendous

happening with thousands losing their lives.

The people did fine in their homes after the hurricane.

It was the leaders of the City of New Orleans and

the Parrishes not having a

CONTINGENCY PLAN for immediate WARNING.......and

getting vehicles into the areas they knew were at greatests risk...

to get people OUT.

I don't care if people had had cars to leave....

the floods hit fast and hard.

IT WAS NOT THE HURRICANE THAT DID THIS TO NEW ORLEANS. IT WAS LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY ON
THE PART OF THE LEADERS OF NEW ORLEANS.

They knew they needed a plan and did not
take the leadership to do it ahead of such a
disaster........which I might add was in the making........and not only that.......they had had levees breached before and knew what could happen.

[ustt]

Since I'm sitting here fussing with myself (LOL)

I will mention this.

I think "somebody" wants the New Orleans landscape for "oil" drilling???

They want it for something.

For one thing do you think it looks odd for
reporters to be saying "don't even let the water in New Orleans touch your skin".......and yet we see National Guardsmen walking around in the water?

Well, is the water toxic.....or is it not?

Which is it?

Are they truly willing to kill fish, the oyster beds as they say will happen with the toxic sludge the pumps are pumping into the lake.....or is that hype? which is it?

I personally think that stuff looks disgusting.
But why are rescue workers not wearingn protective gear when out mucking about in it?

[*flo*]

CONTINGENCY PLAN for immediate WARNING......
Posted by: ustt | Sep 8, 2005 9:50:51 PM

This was the killer....*flo*

But why are rescue workers not wearingn protective gear when out mucking about in it?

Posted by: ustt | Sep 8, 2005 9:56:15 PM

ustt, there have been reports of people dying from the "toxic" water, its a breding ground to mosquitoes ...disease carriers...I read, not much on posting:)....military personnel...get vaccinated

[ellewoods]

ustt-Dr. Boden (sp?) on Fox just said that it won't hurt you if you don't drink it or if you don't have any cuts on your body.

so I guess you can bathe in it-LOL!! NOT!

instead they will all just get West Nile from the mosquitoes!

[Cindi in PA]

Our main news station and Lowes had a HUGE drive for the Red Cross yesterday. Everyone in town drove through the parking lot of Lowes to deposit money. They are still counting but as of this evening we raised $980,000 and they expect the final number to be over $1 mill!!!!!!!!! And that number will double as it will be matched by Lowes!! Hurricane Ivan only raised $100,000 from the same drive last year and we got hit by that one!

Posted by: ellewoods | Sep 8, 2005 8:54:23 PM

wow elle, thanks for the good news!

Alamo, next time I come to TX, you owe me a rodeo :). We have them here in Pa and NJ, but somehow just not the same. I believe its the announcers in TX that make it so much fun. Those guys talk faster than a rattle snake!

Kathleen please keep posting, you have much to share with us on the "outside looking in"
Hope things return to normal for you and yours.

[TheAlamo]

Alamo, next time I come to TX, you owe me a rodeo :). We have them here in Pa and NJ, but somehow just not the same. I believe its the announcers in TX that make it so much fun. Those guys talk faster than a rattle snake!

Posted by: Cindi in PA | Sep 8, 2005 10:54:42 PM

Anytime! Come on down. There is usually one going somewhere in the state all year round. I am in San Antonio, and it hits here about the middle of February. It has gotten expensive though. I think beer was $3.00 for a little cup last year.
Actually if you come here though Fiesta is a lot more fun--similar to Mardi Gras for a week long party.
We talk funny you know....the announcers say "ya'll."

[Cindi in PA]

Actually if you come here though Fiesta is a lot more fun--similar to Mardi Gras for a week long party.
We talk funny you know....the announcers say "ya'll."

Posted by: TheAlamo | Sep 8, 2005 11:04:34 PM

Oh my god Alamo.........my sister has a house in SAT, she also has a small ranch in Rio Medina. I was there in April to visit my sister with one of my daughters for the Fiesta, we had such an awesome time! Also like the fact that you never know what country singer is going to stop in the "Lone Star" pull up a seat and start singing.
Often say, when the last of my children are out of high school, TX will be my next stop.
And yeah I know how ya'll talk, two nephews and a sister that talk that way ;)

[TheAlamo]

Also like the fact that you never know what country singer is going to stop in the "Lone Star" pull up a seat and start singing.

Posted by: Cindi in PA | Sep 8, 2005 11:11:59 PM

You're right. I live about 45 miles from Luchenbach and about 60 from Austin...and they do that quite often. (I am actually about 25 miles north of SA now, but I grew up there, and most of my work is there.)

[Cindi in PA]

(I am actually about 25 miles north of SA now, but I grew up there, and most of my work is there.)

Posted by: TheAlamo | Sep 8, 2005 11:18:28 PM

and if you tell me you have horses........I'll be right there lol. Serious, the folks of TX are as kind hearted as you will find. Proof of that is all the folks from the Gulf Coast they are taking in. When my sister moved to Rio her husband was outside putting up a porch........next thing you knew.......all the neighbors were there helping out, folks they never met. Boy did we have one hell of a bond fire that night lol. I have never experienced anything like it.

[TheAlamo]

We have our good and some bad too, but for the most part it is a pretty good place and friendly people. Couldn't take it where you are though. When it gets below 70 I am cold!
Let me know if you come this way........

Signin off!

[Kathleen]

ellewoods, thank you. I apologize to you as my comments were not directed at just you. I am so tired of hearing/reading the erroneous reports(some being totally off the wall), and the blame, blame, blame, who can we point the finger at game.

I am thankful to be one of the fortunate. I live 60 miles inland from NO and I came out of Hurricane Katrina with only some roof and tree damage. I am still in my house. I never left it, although Dan and others here urged me to do so. Many offered excellent tips and reminders of things I had forgotten to do and I appreciated them greatly. It was one wild and terrifying night and day, not soon to be forgotten, and to think, we caught what my son living in Cali. called "the baby side"...never again. I can only imagine the sheer terror those living on the La/Miss/Ala coasts went through.

The New Orleans area actually survived the hurricane's winds. It was the Miss./Ala. coast that caught the brunt of the devastation due to this brutal storm, and it pains my heart to know that they are being overshadowed by the media. Their loss of life and property is catastrophic.

It was the massive flooding "after" the storm that destroyed NO and surrounding area--and not the hurricane itself. Had the levees not been breached, it would have been, "ok, let's band together and clean up, go do what we can to help our neighbors, and take a close look at the mistakes we made in this one, and get ourselves better prepared for the next one".

But, unfortunately, that is not the case. The levees(which we are not even allowed to drive on) breached(whether as a result of run-away barges, being weakened by the storm, or being substandard to begin with), the flood waters quickly rose inundating a below sea level NO, total chaos ensued(in both the public, as well as official sector), and many many MANY people (of all religions, races, creeds, and social standings) lost their lives, their loved ones, and everything that they possessed. And THAT, IMO, is what "should" be the major concern and focus, and NOT "where to point the finger of blame".

When that finger finally takes it last and final aim and the blame is set in stone, will it change one damn thing of a catastropic devastating horrible heartwrenching event that has already happened? Will that "finger of blame" 100% totally insure against it happening again? Of course not, and then it will be, "ok, so who the hell can we blame THIS time".

IMO, the most important questions people should be asking right now is "WHO can I help?" "What can I do TO help?" It doesn't matter whether it's in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama--or soon to be Florida again, as Ophelia now takes aim at them--just as long as those of us that CAN help, do.

I even saw someone make a post on another thread stating that they would not help New Orleans because it was predominantly black. To that sick pathetic heartless individual if you are still here, there is NO place for your racism BS, nor Jesse Jackson's, in ANY of this.

And then we have the totally ridiculous tale elsewhere by some super idiot that we blew up our own levees and purposely killed all those people....I suppose THAT one was born from the actual talk of blowing the levees below New Orleans AFTER the flood, in order to release the water.

Dan, I apologize for the lengthy "soapbox"(which is very unlike me), but it's hard enough to emotionally deal with the situation down here as it is, without all the added BS that is being thrown in, and I just couldn't "bite my tongue" anymore.

Could things have been done differently here...yes. But does hindsight make a difference here now to those that lost their lives, and those that are suffering so greatly? No.
Maybe it will for future generations, and again, maybe it won't. And even with all that has happened, and with the city essentially gone and being uninhabitable, there are STILL people who are ABSOLUTELY REFUSING to leave New Orleans.

[Cindi in PA]

God Bless you Kathleen...........keep posting..............you sure as hell have a lot to say.................

PAX.............Cindi

[!]

http://wizbangblog.com/archives/007017.php

Thanks for the link Dan. I appreciate the real truth . :O)

Now about 2 grain barges being the reason the levee broke....I woudld like to see the pics and the aritcle. I do not beleive there is any truth to this at all. Where do some of you get your info. Do you make it all up as you go along. ??
If that were true it woudl be all over the news and you know it !! Lets see the proof.

[ustt]

ustt-Dr. Boden (sp?) on Fox just said that it won't hurt you if you don't drink it or if you don't have any cuts on your body.

so I guess you can bathe in it-LOL!! NOT!

instead they will all just get West Nile from the mosquitoes!

Posted by: ellewoods | Sep 8, 2005 10:51:56 PM

____________

well, I can agree with dear Dr. Baden up to a point.
My grandmother lives up on the hill overlooking the Mississippi River in KY Where Missouri, KY are. You can actually see Cape Giradeau across the river from her house.

The river floods and they have the sea wall that sort of protects her town.

I was there one year as the flood uncovered many many graves where victims of the yellow fever epidemic of the 1800s. They were telling us be sure to not go near them as that is still not safe after all these years. And I believe those old folks. They know a lot more than some of the docs today.

Now New Orleans has gosh knows what buried in those ABOVE-GROUND cemeteries that may have been affected by the flooding (they have not covered on the news what has gone on with grave yards - it may just be too grotesque for prime time viewing).....but I know for a fact they tell us at the schools AIDS is spread through bodily fluids and we have little ones in the local elementary school who have been mainstreamed who have AIDS and it worries me to death. These kids have mishaps - have diarrhea and it's all over the bathrooms, they have runn noses, it's a recipe for disaster but the school systems will not even let us know which children are affected so you never know if other children have been exposed from many sources at school.

Now in New Orleans they put mostly high risk people into (the poor usually have really difficult health to care for) enclosed and often locked down environments and what a picture that was to me as I watched all of them marching into that Superdome that day - I just shook my head - and could have told you it would be awful - and it was.

They were putting drug users, people with hepatitis, AIDS, kidney dialysis patients, heart patients, people with hypertension, people with TB - all in there with bare essentials of life - and the probability of no electricity after the storm. Now those places as we have seen had feces and urine all over the place - BODILY FLUIDS - which if you went in there healthy you have a great chance of being sick now or in the future.

And what are they doing - they are sending those exposed individuals out into our country to homes of unsuspecting families who have offered to take them in.

You know part of the problems with the Hispanics coming from Mexico is the TB - and the TB with the AIDS patients is nearly untreatable.

I just wonder where is the medical knowledge of people directing these activities? Where is the CDC's input on this. Are they just standing around the water coolers discussing the next social function - I know most of those jobs at CDC are plush cushy jobs - favor appointments - but at some point they need to step up to the plate and WORK. And I bet it's going to have to be soon because we have just exposed 99% of our country now to possible outbreaks of some bad things with no infrastructure of health care anymore in our country.

[!]

Wonder if the Governor of NO has come to her conclusion of whether of not the water is dirty there or not. She should be made to move and live in New Orleans and drink and bath in the water there !! Stupid women. Very stupid !!

[ustt]

Now about 2 grain barges being the reason the levee broke....I woudld like to see the pics and the aritcle. I do not beleive there is any truth to this at all. Where do some of you get your info. Do you make it all up as you go along. ??
If that were true it woudl be all over the news and you know it !! Lets see the proof.

Posted by: ! | Sep 9, 2005 9:34:03 AM

_________________

Tell you what Mr. !
Go on google
Do your research
You can find all the articles and all the pictures of PREVIOUS documents hits those
levies have taken.
Read the articles on the barge traffic on the Mississippi
Study math and do the law of averages.
It is not beyond the realm of possibilities and
there are at this moment named company barges that were reported hitting the levee during this storm

http://forums.joeuser.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=2&AID=85356

One old black man sitting on his porch saw the 2 grain barges (as reported on national TV) and the above link is to a construction barge possibly hitting a levee and actually giving the name of the construction company.

Plain and simple - this town did not have an evacuation plan for if a levee was breached.
The hurricane did not cause the disaster in New Orleans. It was the lack of a PLAN.

This town was a bowl surrounded by water. WHAT THE HE^^ WERE THEY THINKING? OK, so you want to live surrounded by water ---

But if you have so many barges and boat traffic around your town that you need TRAFFIC LIGHTS! to direct it - you BETTER HAVE A PLAN.

And they did not.

From what I read last night, the Exxon team of 11 people were the first able to respond and realized immediately they couldn't do this task as water was coming in at 1 foot an hour.

I think the leaders of New Orleans and the parrishes surrounding it should come and be sworn in and we should hear what their EVACUATION PLAN WAS that they had in place.

And then I'd like to know why food and water was not allowed to be taken to people in the Convention Center. A place that had a clearly open road - not underwater - accessible by John Q. Public - where the people were in truth held hostages in there by the NATIONAL GUARD. (see the interviews of the 3 young men who got into the convention center and rescued as many as they could out under the guise of being press people).

[!]

The Army Corp believes that the surge topped the levee, washing earth away from the opposite side of levee causing the levee to then catastophically fail.
==========================================

as for you ustt..why don't you just post the story. Thats how rumors get started. Unebelieveable and whats more the people who believe them and start them.
------------------------------------------------
HERES YOUR POST..that you got that hogwash from. pleeeezz. You know damn well if that were the case it would be all over the news. !!

Did a construction barge breach the 17th Street Canal levee?
At least one escapee from New Orleans is claiming that case
By: historyishere
Posted: 9/2/2005 4:34:02 PM on History is a nightmare....
I cannot confirm the veracity of this, however, about two hours ago, I read a report from someone who had gotten out of New Orleans a few hours before the official evacuation order had been put out, and he has put forward the following claim:

I just learned a construction barge rebuilding the Hammond Hwy bridge at Bucktown broke loose from the bridge and punched a hole in the New Orleans-side of the levee. It is entirely possible that were it not for this incident, the system in the main part of New Orleans aside from New Orleans East and the Lower Ninth WOULD NOT HAVE FLOODED!

And here is a Google Maps Hybrid version of that Bridge area before the flooding and the CNN map of almost the same area, with the levee breach indicated.

I will admit from all I've read over the years that levees and other such defenses have a tendency to fail catastrophically when they reach their breaking point so a two block breach may be the realistic results of such a normal failure of that system. However, if this failure was facilitated by a collision with the construction barge, then this event takes on a new scope as something which may have been harder to prevent through levee improvement.

I am no Bush apologist, but if the barge theory proves correct, then this failure may have still happened with or without the billion dollar improvement to the system, because I don't know that levees are designed to take a such a hit. Granted, there were two other levee breaks of lesser severity in other parts of the city which indicate the system was still lacking.

At the moment, this may all just be idle speculation, however, it did seem worthy of reporting to the rest of you..

[!]

Grain barges I thought you said ustt....the post you read said a constuction barge. Now what was it, Grain or constuction ? Conspiricy theories about everything. lol ~ HA HA.
Some people are just plain nut cases.

The "real" truth is always better.

[ustt]

HERES YOUR POST..that you got that hogwash from. pleeeezz. You know damn well if that were the case it would be all over the news. !!
___________

well, that's what all of us want to know-------WHY ISN'T THE NEWS ALL OVER THIS STORY?

It was supposedly in the Wall Street Journal yesterday but I can't get the newspaper nor into their web site.

If you can go there - go there.

Don't b*tch at me - I'm just telling you the hurricane was not the problem....as does Susan Warren, reporter for the Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB112593035219631806-Bp9GuPN8MII7hREA7mmokQwQ0eI_20051005,00.html?mod=tff_article

"By the number of people needing rescue, it was clear that most of the residents in some neighborhoods had not evacuated. As they climbed into Mr. Davidson's boat, they told him they had been confident they could make it through the hurricane in their homes. And they did, he said. "After the hurricane was over, they went outside and everything was fine. Then the levee broke and it was too late to get out."

You know what, I'm not here to do your research for you and I'm not gossiping.

However, if you can't take information and go look it up, sorry for you. To be informed is to be better off. And if you aren't smart enough to recognize what is gossip and what is fact - too bad you are so stupid. Good luck to ya.

[!]

STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES, NOW QUIT POSTING RUMORS AND DOWN RIGHT LIES !
And I sure as hell am not stupid. I do not post lies, conspiracy theories and "idle" specualtion about a matter as serious as this. This is not a joking matter.
Get a life !!!!

[ellewoods]

Ok, I am no civil engineer but is it really possible anyway to build levees to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane? Does anyone really know and has it ever been tested?

My sister is in south Florida with a canal behind her house. When hurricanes are approaching, they lower all the water in the canals-to where I am not sure. I wonder if there is any such procedure in New Orleans and if it would do any good.

Hey Katheen-I hate all this blame game too. I think each level of govenment contributed anyway. I hope that instead of the investigation being a witch hunt it is instead an opportunity to learn. In a way, it is better that we get to learn from a situation that went bad from Mother Nature than from other forces ie terrorists.

Kathleen, I hope you don't plan to hang around during anymore hurricanes. I am further inland than you but it is still too terrifying!!!

To all~many animal shelters are housing pets of evacuees. They are in desparate need of additional food, crates, kitty litter, etc and of course money. So if any of you can help out shelters in your area if they are housing such pets, please do!!! I think when people reunite with their pets it will do much for their mental health.

[noblame]

Pointing Fingers

(Not sure who is pointing)
In case you aren't familiar with how our government is SUPPOSED to work:
The chain of responsiblity for the protection of the citizens in New Orleans is:

1. The Mayor
2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political appointee of the Governor who reports to the Governor)
3. The Governor
4. The Head of Homeland Security
5. The President

What did each do?

1. The mayor, with 5 days advance, waited until 2 days before he announced a mandatory evacuation (at the behest of the President). The he failed to provide transportation for those without transport even though he had hundreds of buses at his disposal.

2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security failed to have any plan for a contingency that has been talked about for 50 years. Then he blames the Feds for not doing what he should have done. (So much for political appointees)

3. The Governor, despite a declaration of disaster by the President 2 DAYS BEFORE the storm hit, failed to take advantage of the offer of Federal troops and aid. Until 2 DAYS AFTER the storm hit.

4. The Director of Homeland Security positioned assets in the area to be ready when the Governor called for them.

5. The President urged a mandatory evacuation, and even declared a disaster State of Emergency, freeing up millions of dollars of federal assistance, should the Governor decide to use it.

Oh and by the way, the levees that broke were the responsibility of the local landowners and the local levee board to maintain, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

The disaster in New Orleans is what you get after decades of corrupt (democrat) government going all the way back to Huey Long.

Funds for disaster protection and relief have been flowing into this city for decades, and where has it gone, but into the pockets of the politicos and their friends.

Decades of socialist government in New Orleans has sapped all self reliance from the community, and made them dependent upon government for every little thing.

Political correctness and a lack of will to fight crime have created the single most corrupt police force in the country, and has permitted gang violence to flourish.

The sad thing is that there are many poor folks who have suffered and died needlessly because those that they voted into office failed them.

For those who missed item 5 (where the President's level of accountability is discussed), it is made more clear in a New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. (emphasis mine)

The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin's court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration f**ked up.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city's government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them.

If you're keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleans "in one trip" get ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they'd bothered to follow it.

As for all the race-baiting rhetoric and Bush-bashing coming from prominent blacks on the left, don't expect Ray Nagin to be called out on the carpet for falling short. You want to know why? Here's why:

It's more convenient to blame a white president for what went wrong than to hold a black mayor and his administration accountable for gross negligence and failing to fully carry out an established emergency preparedness plan.

To hold Nagin and his administration accountable for dropping the ball amounts to letting loose the shouts and cries of "Racism!". It's sad, it's wrong, but it's standard operating procedure for the media and left-wing black leadership.

Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr., Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West being directed toward Clarence Ray Nagin Jr. Why? Because he is just another black politician instead of a responsible elected official who happens to be black. In the mindset of more-blacker-than-thou blacks, black politicians who are on their side can do no wrong.

[barbara]

i thought i was the only one who heard the story abt the grain barges or that i had dreamed it

[Kathleen]

Grain barges I thought you said ustt....the post you read said a constuction barge. Now what was it, Grain or constuction ? Conspiricy theories about everything. lol ~ HA HA.
Some people are just plain nut cases.

The "real" truth is always better.

Posted by: ! | Sep 9, 2005 10:03:51 AM

gee, I wonder what idiot moored that grain barge in a highly populated residential area? Well, lookee there, I believe I see the levee break.

http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?s=c15640a5853c314daaf15a5c896989e8&act=Attach&type=post&id=795

[ellewoods]

wonder who owns that grain barge-anyone with deep pockets? ;)

What is interesting is that I recall somewhere on the news that all traffic on the Mississippi had stopped several days prior to the storm-this was a decision made by the barge captains themselves.

Don't most secure property or anything that can cause damage prior to a hurricane? The Air Force and all commercial airlines certainly get their planes out of the way. And gee, I move in all my patio furniture!