The Truth and Natalee Holloway

This post isn't about reporting the few known true facts behind the disappearance. It's an extremely long post by reader George T. lifted from the comments section. It's in the form of a long letter and covers topics from the newly discovered concept of reading a web log and interacting through comments - to defining truth as we know it when it's hard to find. It includes comments from many other commenters.

This entry is extended - click to open.

Posted by: anchor | Aug 18, 2005 8:25:53 PM

Thanks anchor. I wrote a letter to my aunt awhile back about this blog and how I see it.

Dan, if this is too long or inappropriate, please delete.
My Dearest Aunt Katherine,

It has been a month since the disappearance of young Natalee Holloway in Aruba.
I have just this month learned how to read Blogs on the computer and have followed the case very closely, sometimes for hours a day.

Blogs are a sort of online journal written by a overseer and anyone who wants to add to the previous conversation. It is regulated by one person so that inappropriate things do not get on the screen. I do not want to continue to sit at a computer doing this but I have allowed myself to observe this case to its conclusion.

Often the people who are writing back and forth are people in the US who have visited Aruba who state an idea they have that may solve the case. Then a person who really lives in Aruba checks out the area or information that the US person provided and writes back on the Blog the answer as they see it. It consists of many people having one conversation all at the same time and in order about the same topic.

This has taken up a lot of my days over this month but I want to expand my computer experiences and knowledge so I am allowing myself to watch it. I do not join in the conversations.

Why I am sending you this partial section of one of the many Blogs going on about Natalee, is that I would like you to observe what is at the core of many human's nature. It seems many people look to their faith during stressful, painful times. I personally am comforted by the conclusions about themselves that people are coming to as they write and try to solve this horrible delima of not being able to find Natalee Holloway.

Please read when you have time to digest the info. It is in a letter form. Realize this these people have all been arguing who among them is correct about what happened to Natalee Holloway and how to find her. The latest is that after most people prejudging Joran Van Der Sloot for the past month as guilty of kidnapping and murder, have backed off and realize that Natalee's mother is condeming Joran with NO evidence, just on her personal feeling.

People are realizing that thought they personally have been agreeing with her, they now are beginning to see that he may not be the guilty party, and many are willing to forgive him for whatever his role was in her life, which certainly was not that of anything but a brief fling on one night. I am amazed that people can be amongst the crowd symbolically willing to crucify Jesus (Joran) and are able to step back and say, "What in the world are we doing?"

The Blog

John 8:32, Shaw And Byron

I've often characterized what I have been up to here as a search for truth. At least in part, perhaps, as I have always unquestioningly admired the following quotation.

John 8:32 "And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Perhaps. But tonight the statement has, for me, a newly discovered corollary which could be in need of some pondering. By definition, the greatness of any new potential freedom must always be matched by what is the greatness of your existing prison.

So, a question for my readers - assuming you discovered this previously unconsidered duality to the nature of truth-seeking, would you embrace the harsh reality of George Bernard Shaw: "All great truths begin as blasphemies," or cozy up to the practical considerations of Lord Byron: "Truth is a gem that is found at a great depth; whilst on the surface of this world, all things are weighed by the false scale of custom"?

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." - Thomas Jefferson -

~ This is worth sharing on "Truth" ~

Be Sure Your Sins Will Find You Out

by Dennis Tucker

Recently I was sitting in the living room on a Saturday morning. Those readers with children know what that means. The children had some cartoon on that caught my interest. This one character was playing marbles with his friend and was losing. He decided to bring out the "blue marble". Obviously the "blue marble" was supposed to be some kind of secret weapon. However, he then remembered he had loaned it to his sister. So he ran to retrieve the "blue marble".

His sister was playing in her room, and much to his grief, she could not find the "blue marble" due to the mess in her room. So they decided to clean up her room. They took all the toys in her room to the kitchen. Her room looked good, but now the kitchen was a mess. The mother was not pleased at all. She demanded they now clean up the kitchen. They did so by carrying the mess to the yard. Now dad was upset, because he had to mow the yard.

At that point, I had to leave the room and never got back to the cartoon. But it got me to thinking on different levels. My children have the same problem. They sometimes think cleaning up is simply taking the dirty clothes and putting them under the bed. Eventually, it catches up with them and then their Mother is not happy. Just moving around the junk does not do any good. In order to do any good, junk needs to be thrown away, dirty clothes taken to the laundry room, and other things actually put in their proper place.

There is also a spiritual application. Some people try to just shift around sin and never really deal with it. Some will try to move from one congregation to another without ever repenting or acknowledging their wrongs. Some will try to place the blame on everybody around them. Some will just try to hide the sin from public view, something like putting the dirty clothes under the bed.

What needs to be done is personal correction. We cannot really hide our sins from God, "be sure your sin will find you out" (Numbers 32:23b). Either we will learn to handle sin or sin will handle us. It will make us unworthy to serve God, it will bring us into spiritual bondage (Romans 6:12), it will make us cowards in the presence of God.

It is never right to sin but the real shame is staying in sin and just moving it around.

Posted by: Mary | June 29, 2005 05:22 AM

John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, "What is truth?"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For some, truth is strictly subjective, measured against their own empirical data, and relative to their perception of reality. They are oblivious to another's wisdom, as if to prevent being contaminated by outside influences.

Pilate stood before the Living God, whose light was brighter than sun in truth, yet, his darkened mind was so limited, that for him, pondering truth was a rhetorical exercise of futility. Nor did he care to receive enlightenment from beyond his own understanding.

Sometimes the truth is staring at us face to face, but, it's starkness and proximity prevents us from recognizing it's features or focusing on it's meaning. Like standing too close to a painting, we need to take a step back to discern the full picture. Only then can we appreciate it's subtle meanings, and be blessed by wisdom and revelation.

Truth is absolute, since there can only be one truth.
Truth will set us free, but, like Pilate, do we ask, "What is truth?"

With patience, faith, and humility, the truth will be seen.
Jesus said, "Ask and ye shall receive."

Take a step back to see those features. The truth is in front of our noses, so close to us, that it is hard to see.
He will provide the perspective and the lenses to see the truth, and with patience, even a blind man can see.

Posted by: michele | June 29, 2005 05:37 AM

"If we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him; for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Posted by: fred | June 29, 2005 06:27 AM

John 8:32 "And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Of course in this Bible verse, the TRUTH is Jesus Christ. I don't think you can really use it out of context to fit your own parameters. The Bible is God's word and John is speaking of God's son, the Messiah.

No truth of man's can set us free, free of eternal death that is, there is only one way to the Father and that is through His Son.

I am sure the Twitty's would agree as their only TRUTH right now is God's grace.

Posted by: janieruth | June 29, 2005 06:57 AM

Truth is a consensus.

Examples:

Our legal system is dependent on twelve people (jury) who arrive at the “truth” by consensus.

The term “Scientific Method” is a procedure wherein many like events are examined and reproduced my more than one scientist (consensus) from which a “truth” is derived.

Occasionally a person will come along and refute the established “truth” (blasphemy), until such time the blasphemy is accepted as the new “truth”.

Examples:

Jesus Christ

Albert Einstein

I go along with:

George Bernard Shaw: "All great truths begin as blasphemies".

Posted by: T_C_Mits | June 29, 2005 07:27 AM

Truth is a consensus, are you kidding me? That is a very solipsistic attitude. Truth is simply statements which conform to the facts. No conscious entity is capable of altering reality, be it an individual, socity, or God. Was slavery really good when the "consensus" of society accepted it? Consensus, and other truth-seeking functions, is simply a means by which people decide what to believe to be true, and should never be confused with what actually is true.

Posted by: bww esq | June 29, 2005 07:59 AM

Jesus said:
I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me.

Posted by: Loydd | June 29, 2005 08:23 AM

bww esq

You are confusing "truth" with reality.

"Truth" is what we believe, reality is what is (facts).

There is no good or bad reality, there is only good and bad "truth".

Posted by: T_C_Mits | June 29, 2005 08:36 AM

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" John Lennon

Posted by: KackyLacky | June 29, 2005 09:00 AM

The Truth is something apparently the government is frightened for us to discover.
Check out this mornings headlines at Foxnews.com:

FEC Debates Blog Rules
The Federal Election Commission says Web logs just might be a threat to democracy and it's considering whether to police them.

The issue, being discussed during FEC hearings on Tuesday and Wednesday, is whether some Web sites actually provide unregulated benefits to specific political campaigns. The famously free-spirited Web community is fighting back. Check it out.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160971,00.html

Posted by: Stumped | June 29, 2005 09:11 AM

In this case I'm going with

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

We need to look at solutions that go against our instincts and that people close to the situation do not want to hear.

Posted by: WW | June 29, 2005 09:13 AM

Little absolute truth is left in this world as the truth is relative to your own point of view.

Seek not the truth but the fact that makes your truth, true to you.

Posted by: heavyheart | June 29, 2005 09:36 AM

You are confusing "truth" with reality.

"Truth" is what we believe, reality is what is (facts).

There is no good or bad reality, there is only good and bad "truth

That makes no sense whatsoever....truth and reality should be on the same level.

Posted by: Cheynne | June 29, 2005 10:00 AM

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
In some cases, this statement is true. Think of some previous generations sayings, "What you don't know can't hurt you." Being ignorant does hurt many people and repeating a poorly thought-out phrase gave people an excuse to be naive and "in the dark" and therefore not responsible. Some people are still this way and think by avoiding tv or the news or politics or the internet, they can live their lives by not being hurt. But think about Natalee, and what you realize is what sounds fun and cool and popular can indeed hurt you and can hurt your children. So to delve into the problems and become informed participants we seek to use the truth to better our world. There are other great truths that come from the Bible that have lasted for generations and that have held up thru the test of time. "Thou shalt have no other God before Me" is more than just a commandment; It is a warning to those who live for other purpose rather than for God's will.

"Truth is a gem that is found at a great depth; whilst on the surface of this world, all things are weighed by the false scale of custom"
I believe this statement to be more in my way of thinking because as time passes you will know if your first impression was correct and if what other people tell you is true. Sometimes you may be perplexed for a long time trying to understand the truth of a matter or what happened. Sometimes you may have a lingering doubt that what everyone else believes may be a lie. You may just have to turn over the matter to God and rest assured that He will reveal it to you in good time or that you will have peace and understanding in heaven. I wonder sometimes how many falsehoods will we realize in our old age and will the next generation listen to our wisdom any better than we listen to our elders.

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." All truth seekers believe this and know the relief of the correct answer, the evaluation of the lesson learned, and the ability to move on to the next problem. We problem solvers feel good when the truth wins out and the lie is dispelled, not just for our own success, but for making this world a better place for all. For the truth does set you free from living with a lie.

Posted by: MominTN | June 29, 2005 10:02 AM

Interesting thought on "truth" are expressed in a movie by Akira Kirosawa "Rashamon":

3 people, all witnessed a confrontation which resulted in murder. Each of the 3 had no reasons to lie and were telling the truth. All 3 stories are different.

Truth can be also a matter of perception of reality.

(By the way, to few poster how are A-S-S-U-M-E-ing that all people are religious, please stop saying "We're all god's children"..... I am not a god's child. You are free to think you are, but don't swipe me into a religion).

Posted by: Moscow girl | June 29, 2005 02:50 PM

In my humble opinion, there are very few that actually seek the truth. Most people believe what they want to believe.

John 8:45-49 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. How many have been put down because they have told the truth? Mankind has gotten to the point that they would rather believe a lie instead of believing the truth. Mans truth is short lived and it is cankerous and moth eaten.

Posted by: Garza | June 29, 2005 03:16 PM

you posted the following....."Jesus said:
I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me."

It is my belief that Jesus knew the "secret" teachings (the truth), and that is what he was trying to teach the people. Unfortunatly, we could have learned centuries ago if the "truth" had not been hidden from us by those with power when so many priceless writings were burned in Alexandria, and other writings withheld from the Cannon.

But, the "truth" is still hidden throughout the Bible and many other cherished writings if one seeks to learn. It's so very sad that we never had the privledge of knowing Jesus' studies during his lost years from ages 12 to 30, but it is said that some proof exists he indeed studied with the masters in Egypt and other lands.

Power leads to supression. And, I have no doubt that's the case with Natalee and Aruba. It is my thought that there are many invloved in her disappearance, and YES the father is involved.

What a different world this could have been.......and, it's still not too late.

We are all God's children, and regardless of our religion we pray to the same God although he/she sees "their" God in their own form.

Posted by: sleuthing | June 29, 2005 11:09 AM

Lord Byron, for sure... and I definitely like the Dan Riehl comment, matching the sense of the freedom of truth to the size of the prison. The truth Jesus speaks of (Himself) is certainly not of this world and weighs nothing on our "false scale of custom". Exactly why so many people just don't get it. The veil over our eyes is so often lifted and the Truth found through tradgedy or when realizing the "great depth" of the pit we have dug ourselves into. The vast prison of our own selves. Go with Lord Byron, for sure. Shaw's blasphemies, however true in retrospect, rely on the "false scale of custom" for evaluation before being proved true. Most blasphemies are just that, though great truths do begin that way, how could you know it to be the truth in advance? Maybe if gifted with great knowledge or spriritual wisdom not your own...

Posted by: GGG | June 29, 2005 11:10 AM

answerman - I think you are on the right track.

I'm not much of a philosopher, just having lived a long time and seen a lot in this world. I guess I look at truth as being exactly what happend at any particular time, either it happened or it didn't, you can't embellish anything to make it more palatable. You either have a set of facts that are true or if you have added or taken away something, then it is no longer truth.

I have enjoyed reading all the comments, very deep thinkers. I'm pretty simplistic I guess.

Unfortunately for Natalie and her family I don't think the truth is ever going to be known unless they find her and at this point I really don't think that is going to happen. I believe whomever has been writing about Paul VS is very accurate about his complicity and his 'ability' with twisting the law for his own good.

When I first started working in the legal field 40+ years ago, I was excited to be working in an area where the "truth" was being sought. I quickly found out that trials were about application of the law - not necessarily about finding the truth.

Posted by: moey | June 29, 2005 11:12 AM

Hmmm...I am perplexed by this one. Trying to avoid delving too deep and reading too much into it...

Without dissecting your quotes or adding any others, I'd say there are many truths out there, but you should not lose focus of what the main truth you are seeking is. Parallel truths exist which may aid or detract in arriving at the ultimate truth. I trust your judgment.

Posted by: Getagrip | June 29, 2005 11:14 AM

Answerman - I think you are right.

I am not as philosophical as others who have posted, but to me truth equals the actual facts. Not facts that have been embellished to make them more palatable. Its pretty black and white to me, but then I tend to look at things simplisticly, I guess.

Years ago when I started working in the legal field I was so excited to be working in an area that I assumed was searching for truth. However it was explained to me that trials were not seeking the truth, but applying the law to whatever facts were admitted into evidence and of course that is different than the "truth."

My heart goes out to the Holloway/Twitty family as I do not think the real truth will ever be known unless they find Natalee and I really do not think that is going to happen.

I believe PVS and JVS have twisted the 'truth' to their benefit and have no regard for this family whatsoever.

Posted by: moey | June 29, 2005 11:16 AM

The Bible must always be taken in context.

John 8:31,32 is an IF, THEN. Remember those?

"IF you hold to my teaching, your are really my disciples. THEN you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

It's not a blanket statement for whatever truth man comes up with, because as you see from this world, truth is only what one person believes according to the stimuli and the situation.

The passage is referring to truth as it concerns freedom from sin, not freedom from ignorance. If you are my followers, then you will know the truth and you will be set free.

The truth of this awful situation and all other situations does not set anyone free. Free from what, anyway?

The truth referred to in John 8:32 is Jesus talking about Himself and the freedom from sin that He offers to all of us. He usually didn't waste His time talking about anything besides that. All philosophy, the truth according to you or me or him or her, and all other opinions of any leader or religious figure on this earth, they are under His authority and control. That is the truth.

Posted by: invisible | June 29, 2005 11:45 AM

Jesus IS Truth. God IS Truth.

Posted by: kristin | June 29, 2005 12:02 PM

Jesus had many teachings in parables for his followers to learn about God and righteousness. It wasn't all about sin and salvation.
The parable of the Good Samaritan...being a good neighbor.
Christians draw spiritual truths from Jesus's teachings.
This is a good website you might want to browse for learning about the teachings of Jesus.
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jpbl.html

Posted by: MominTN | June 29, 2005 12:14 PM

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

Posted by: lou | June 29, 2005 12:18 PM

Dan,
I prefer the GBS quote and it may apply best to the NH situation. I still maintain that the Van der S's are as victimized by this tragedy as are the Hollway/Twittys. No one has the right to accuse, on national tv., another on slim to no evidence. Mrs. Twitty has a right to her opinions and her pain, but it is unconscionable to hurl accusations at a man whose career may well be destroyed by those accusations. We know nothing...yet expect that Joran lied. His father and mother deserve the same presumption of innocence as anyone else. Don't destroy another family on the basis of intuition and suspicion. The Canadian justice system is not without flaw, but it is the best we have and I do view this situation and these endless interviews with the H/T family through that prism. Let's not descend to "vigilante justice".
Bonita

Posted by: Bonita,Victoria Canada | June 29, 2005 12:23 PM

Yes, and in the end, it always comes down to salvation.

Posted by: invisible | June 29, 2005 12:24 PM

Sleuthing

Jesus said I AM THE TRUTH... not that He knows the truth, or that he know some secret truth..But He stated, that He (Jesus) IS the truth.

I can also speculate many things, but I prefer just to believe what the bible says.

So in short, with due respect. I don't agree with your theorie.

Posted by: Loydd | June 29, 2005 12:32 PM

Dan,
I prefer the GBS quote and it may apply best to the NH situation. I still maintain that the Van der S's are as victimized by this tragedy as are the Hollway/Twittys. No one has the right to accuse, on national tv., another on slim to no evidence. Mrs. Twitty has a right to her opinions and her pain, but it is unconscionable to hurl accusations at a man whose career may well be destroyed by those accusations. We know nothing...yet expect that Joran lied. His father and mother deserve the same presumption of innocence as anyone else. Don't destroy another family on the basis of intuition and suspicion. The Canadian justice system is not without flaw, but it is the best we have and I do view this situation and these endless interviews with the H/T family through that prism. Let's not descend to "vigilante justice".
Bonita

Posted by: Bonita,Victoria Canada | June 29, 2005 12:32 PM

I think Bonita is right. Here we are all innocent untill proven guilty. Let's keep that in mind...

Posted by: Johnson | June 29, 2005 12:35 PM

Bonita, you're a voice of reason in a sea of speculation, innuendo, psuedo-media-sleuthing and outright slander.

Many people on this forum pay little heed to seperating truth from fiction regardless of how much they quote the bible.

Posted by: Not a Hand Wringer. | June 29, 2005 12:40 PM

Innocent until proven guilty is right. The problem arises when you have the appearance of conflicts of interest and and lack of accountability - this is why we keep coming back here, to have the truth exposed, so that justice can be served - even in the unlikely eventuality that the suspects now in custody are in fact completely innocent.

Posted by: Getagrip | June 29, 2005 12:41 PM

Comments

[BhamNative2000]

The Link to "The truth about Natalee HOlloway" isnt working for me.

[Dan]

it will - time to save on server is long. Once it's there it'll be fine.

[BhamNative2000]

Thank you! I didnt realize you had JUST put it up! Thanks again!!

[kescah]

"The latest is that after most people prejudging Joran Van Der Sloot for the past month as guilty of kidnapping and murder, have backed off and realize that Natalee's mother is condeming Joran with NO evidence, just on her personal feeling."
________________________________

I doubt that this is accurate, that most people have backed off and feel that she is condeming Joran with NO evidence. The evidence is that Natalee left with Joran and he has made up several stories whenever the one before it did not pan out. I don't feel that I can sit in judgement of Joran as to what he did or did not do, but it is obvious that he knows something and is not sharing it with the mother of a girl that is probably in a horrible situation if not dead. I find it hard to just let that pass by. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not truth. Either the person is innocent or guilty- one of those is the truth. It is just that we do not now or never may know which. As with religion, "if you keep seeking for it as for silver (which is harder to dig for than gold,) and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will... find the very knowledge of God." Proverbs 2:4,5. There is TRUTH, and it must be sought after. If you are digging for silver (truth) and someone "covers it up" as you dig, you have to keep digging if you want the TRUTH. A jury does not always know the truth. A prosecutor does not, and a judge does not. But there is truth. None of us knows what happened to Natalee, but only the truth happened- if Joran is guilty, he is not innocent until that is proven. I hope Beth can persevere and find out who did what. That may be impossible. But it is NOT impossible to find the truth about God- he says so. ("Seek and you will find.") We can't make up the truth for ourselves. There is only one truth. I hope we all persevere and find it.

[Canada Goose]

Sometimes the truth comes out, unfortunately often, many years down the road. One of the boys will slip up discussing their infamous night with Natalee. Hopefully, listening ears will be recording it, or someone will share what they know. I know that my step-father revealed to my mother, in a drunken stupor that he had murdered his father by running him down with a tractor, where the family took him to an upstairs bedroom and let him die from his injuries, which took 3 days. He carried his guilt for over 30 years. Most people will slip up in discussing details, but eventually TRUTH reveals itself.

I have lost faith in the Dutch judicial system considering the botched investigation from the beginning and allowing blunder after blunder, with the latest allowing more garbage to be dumped on an area of search at the dump. Go figure.

The prayers of the righteous will ascend to our kind loving omniscient Heavenly Father who knows all things, and will ultimately judge those that are responsible for her disappearance. Often justice in this world is not had for those that deserve it. No matter. God is watching and angels are taking notes. Natalee, if she has passed on, will be looking down and I do believe her presence is giving Beth and Dave the strength to carry on. All truth will be revealed, if not in this world, in the world we shall go to when we meet our maker.

[Topaz]

I had to stop reading this letter due to the
blasphmy contained in the opening statement,
......willing to crucify Jesus(Juran).....
FYI Jesus Christ is the sinless son of God!!!!!
In any way to equate Jurine Vander Sloot with
the precious Savior who died on the cross for
your sins and for mine is blasphamy.
Yes, Jesus is TRUTH. Which Jurine has proven
himself to be a liar over and over and over again. He is also a fornicator. I could go on
and on with his list of sins. But you already
know them. Is there any wonder that we suspect
him of foul play in the disappearance of Natalee?
I have had it with this blog. I have been
a long time lurker, but I knew something was
wrong when Dan became an apologist for Jurine along with all the trolls.
Now this blog has sunken to an all time low
to blaspheming the son of God.
GOOD BY FOREVER REIL WORLD

Topaz

[Roy]

Bye Topaz,

Don't trip over your selfrighteousness on your way out.

[Not a Hand Wringer.]

1) I'm not sure what relevance a person's superstitious beliefs, has on this case.

2) As for the person losing faith in the Aruban justice system, after following one case that hasn't made it to trial yet...well, thank you for your patience.

[Dan]

Geesh, maybe we should all meet at the river and pray for Topaz - or for the wisdom to figure out what the hell Topaz is talking about.

[Reno]

What is missing from the above long post is the commandment: Thou shall not bear false witness. I myself am guilty of this in many ways in this case. I am not going to testify in court about this case. I have tried to dig for facts. Tried to refain from making posts that are based on my opinions and hunches. It is hard not to, when somebody is going against what I am thinking. Wanting to shout out, "Hey I know what I am talking about, and you don't!" Granted the debate that goes on here will not convict anybody. But it can change public opinion about the people and location of this case. Going so far as to only try to find facts to fit what my mind is telling me about this case. Therefore testifying to myself to create a rational of guilt inside my own thought process. Tryng to ignore anything I find that goes counter to it. Therfore closing off my mind to somebody elses opinions and arguements. As stated above "He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." - Thomas Jefferson. More then once I have closed my browser and walked away from this site and tried to open my mind to the others opinions and facts, that are not what I want to hear or think. Trying to keep an open mind is hard. But open debate, even if at times, boarding on somebody thinking the other person must be a troll, just because their "facts" are so far off base. The key word in that sentence is facts. I love the people here that are willing to debate the facts with an open mind, keeping in mind that the other person has born false witness to their own thought process to shore up their arguements without even realizing it. We can all be guilty as sin to our ownselves and never realize it. And yes, life is more puzzling then this case.

[Anna]

>>I am amazed that people can be amongst the crowd symbolically willing to crucify Jesus (Joran) and are able to step back and say, "What in the world are we doing?"<<

This is what offends Topaz as many religions do not allow for the comparing of Christ to humans as though the moral equilivant. My own religion does not allow this, either. Very long, may print and try to read more for cannot read that much on computer screen.

[Jade]

I think most of the truth will only come out when Joran is relaesed. Beth continues to say that there is more to it than she can say now. If you read some of the info at PoliticalTeen.com, it appears that what transpired that night was very different than what we are hearing on tv. That is why she continues to say that the 3 boys know where they left her. Only they can help her to figure out where she went from where she was left. From the posts on that sight, she was alive when they left her. They thought she would find her way back to her hotel.
But they have been silent for so long that they may never find her now. I, myself, think there is a good chance that she may still be alive.

[Jade]

I think most of the truth will only come out when Joran is relaesed. Beth continues to say that there is more to it than she can say now. If you read some of the info at PoliticalTeen.com, it appears that what transpired that night was very different than what we are hearing on tv. That is why she continues to say that the 3 boys know where they left her. Only they can help her to figure out where she went from where she was left. From the posts on that sight, she was alive when they left her. They thought she would find her way back to her hotel.
But they have been silent for so long that they may never find her now. I, myself, think there is a good chance that she may still be alive.

[proudredneck]

>>I am amazed that people can be amongst the crowd symbolically willing to crucify Jesus (Joran) and are able to step back and say, "What in the world are we doing?"<<

I guess you are attempting to make Natalee and Beth into Jezzebelles. Can't go there.

Neither my religion or my morality allows it.

[chip]

thanks dan
i have been looking for this post to refernce for a couple of hours

[George T.]

re:Posted by: Reno | Aug 19, 2005 12:17:56 AM

Hug to you Reno. Peace of the Lord.

[CoCo c'est juste]

I found this on SM a few weeks ago. Copied it but don't remember the date. I think the poster as well as the message was Flowers4u. I thought this might be an appropriate place to post it.
.....................................

When tomorrow starts without me,
And I'm not there to see,
If the sun should rise and find your eyes
All filled with tears for me;
I wish so much you wouldn't cry
The way you did today,
While thinking of the many things,
We didn't get to say.

I know how much you love me,
As much as I love you,
And each time that you think of me,
I know you'll miss me too;
But when tomorrow starts without me,
Please try to understand,
That an angel came and called my name,
And took me by the hand,
And said my place was ready,
In heaven far above,
And that I'd have to leave behind
All those I dearly love.

But as I turned to walk away,
A tear fell from my eye
For all my life, I'd always thought,
I didn't want to die.
I had so much left to live for,
So much left yet to do,
It seemed almost impossible,
That I was leaving you.

I thought of all the yesterdays,
The good ones and the bad,
I thought of all the love we shared,
And all the fun we had.
If I could relive yesterday,
Just even for awhile,
I'd say good-bye and kiss you
And maybe see you smile.

But then I fully realized,
That this could never be,
For emptiness and memories,
Would take the place of me.
And when I thought of wordly things,
I might miss come tomorrow,
I thought of you, and when I did,
My heart was filled with sorrow.

But when I walked through heaven's gates,
I felt so much at home,
When God looked down and smiled at me,
From His great golden throne,
He said, "This is eternity."
Today, your life on earth is past,
But here life starts anew,
I promise no tomorrow,
But todays will always last,
And since each day's the same way
There's no longing for the past.

You have been so faithful.
So trusting and so true.
Though there were times you did some things
You knew you shouldn't do.
But you have been forgiven
And now at last you're free.
So won't you come and take my hand,
And share my life with me?

So when tomorrow starts without me,
Don't think we're far apart,
For every time you think of me,
I'm right here, in your heart.

God bless Natalee and the Holloway family

[chickadee]

CoCo-thanks for posting that truly touching poem-between that and the one about Daddy's little girl,I'm running out of tissue! Makes you take a step back and look at how short life can be and not to waste the time we have here NOW with our loved ones. Someone near and dear to me is battling cancer right now. This poem reminds me to appreciate her-and give her a hug & kiss and tell her that I love her. God bless. chickadee

[Cindi in PA]

GOOD BY FOREVER REIL WORLD

Topaz

Posted by: Topaz | Aug 18, 2005 11:31:59 PM

We are all called to become like Christ Jesus, I belive that is the message here. As for myself, the more I am involved in the world, the further away from that I become. However, still worth trying.
And I somehow doubt if at the end of a day, you can lay your head down and make peace, you would have to say
"GOOD BY FOREVER REIL WORLD"

[rabroy]

What a shock, comparing JVS to Jesus! Why did he go to HI to mix with Alabama students? Was it by coincidence or he was on a specific mission.Then he goes to C& C with Depak and Satish to again mix with the students, again was this by coincidence or by there was a plan? Then a girl, blonde and blue eyed is carved out. Why did they leave with her in their car? What did they want from her? To help her with transport to HI is it? That obviously was not the case.Again we ask if this was by coincidence or by plan and with what objective by the three.Then Natalee does not show at HI and the three lie they dropped her at HI and two innocent guys get arrested because of the lie.JVS and friends including Croes later admit they lied. One asks what the objective of the lie was? Not to find a scapegoat? In any case why lie if you are clean and innocent.Then he say JVS (Jesus) left Natalee on the beach'unharmed' at 02:00 in the morning. That is not typical of Jesus Christ behaviour. In fact this is another lie by JVS.I know it is easy to believe the words of the guilty because the words of the devil are sweet and easy to believe and that is why serial killer managed to deceive their victims.Beth is right, all the circumstances point to one thing. JVS's mixing with MB students was a planned mission and the 3 boys, JVD and the Kalpoes and most likely Croes know exactly what happened to Natalee. The investigation is weak and lacks will and creativity to bust this case. Otherwise it is very clear who is involved or responsible.

[Kap]

What is this crap and what does it have to do with Natalee's disappearance? I can tell you that more people believe Joran killed her than not. It's pretty much common sense. Some people have fallen off the deep end from this case. Comparing Joran to Jesus, wow!

Joran apologists make me sick to my stomach. Their timeline has been blown out of the water. Tito reported the prosecution has other witnesses that verify the gardener's statement among other things.

What a joke!

[mona]

Often the people who are writing back and forth are people in the US who have visited Aruba who state an idea they have that may solve the case. Then a person who really lives in Aruba checks out the area or information that the US person provided and writes back on the Blog the answer as they see it. It consists of many people having one conversation all at the same time and in order about the same topic.

Oh This really made me laugh out loud!!It is more like the people from Aruba come on here and throw rocks and stones...spread misinformation and downright falsehoods....I dont know Dan where you are headed with this...but it highly unlikey I will follow

[FloridaPatty]

Topaz, this went WAY over your head. The very thing you were standing on was the very essence of the message but I guess you will never know that.

Nice deep thoughts.

George that was a great post yesterday.

[Sharon]

COMMENT:
The latest is that after most people prejudging Joran Van Der Sloot for the past month as guilty of kidnapping and murder, have backed off and realize that Natalee's mother is condeming Joran with NO evidence, just on her personal feeling.

People are realizing that thought they personally have been agreeing with her, they now are beginning to see that he may not be the guilty party, and many are willing to forgive him for whatever his role was in her life, which certainly was not that of anything but a brief fling on one night. I am amazed that people can be amongst the crowd symbolically willing to crucify Jesus (Joran) and are able to step back and say, "What in the world are we doing?"

RESPONSE:
Not true!!! No one is backing off and saying that Joran is innocent of any crime...that is a LIE and
YOUR thinking is distorted. He is behind bars being held for a possible homicide for murdering a wonderful person who wanted to give life to the world through being a medical career doctor. SHE
is the VICTIM not Joran.....WHY DON'T YOU LOOK AT THE FACTS!!! and have mercy on the Holloway's and the Twitty's who are heart broken over what Joran has possibly done to their beloved daughter ...SHAME SHAME ON YOU for comparing Joran's situation with what my Lord Jesus went through...SATAN you are a liar!!!!

[oldtimer]

I feel no pity what so ever for Joran,I feel complete sorrow for Natalees family. Did not care for this post the first time even less the second.

[George T.]

RE:
George that was a great post yesterday.

Posted by: FloridaPatty | Aug 19, 2005 10:15:38 AM

Florida, Please stop by if you are ever at the Derby.
George T.

[evolution]

Jesus? Satan? Are you people freakin nuts? Your talking about invisible beings that don't even exist. How funny is it that religion never comes into play until someone is desperate or in trouble.. then all of a sudden its .. Jesus this, God that....give me a break.. If there was a god do you think so many priests would be doing what they did with young children? They are supposedly god's messengers and yet they don't fear him enough to stop them from molesting people? Get a grip.. Referring to god is a poor excuse.. You can murder and yet get foregiveness for asking? Religion is the source of everything bad going on in this world. Throw that in with sitting in a damp dark church praying and singing out loud to nobody, then putting money in a bucket.. Yeah.. religion!!!! Science points to evolution people. Show me god , let me meet him/her/it and I'll believe it...

[Sharon]

COMMENT:
I personally do not think the DNA on the thoothbrush proves anything but hey im not a cop.

Posted by: maria

RESPONSE:
Maria...I don't either...I am thinking either a male maid was in there and did a quick brush remembering he did not earlier...or someone from the group Natalie was with went to the bathroom and then picked up brush and did a quick gleam on his teeth not telling anyone...

[shonane]

>>I am amazed that people can be amongst the crowd symbolically willing to crucify Jesus (Joran) and are able to step back and say, "What in the world are we doing?"<<

I understand the writers point about the human tendency to develop a Mob and Lynching Mentality and to demonize someone, distort and make up information to support their belief, and verbally convict a person, based on speculation rather than facts or evidence. It is among the nastiest of human traits. I also understand why he chose the case of Jesus because it among the best known lynch mob situations where this has happened.

Unfortunately, some who are very concrete thinkers are unable to view this at an abstract level, and therefore wrongly conclude that the writer is somehow comparing the person Joran to the person Jesus. This is not my conclusion at all.

Further, my guess is that if one compares the views of those who are unable to comprehend this analogy, that they also are among those that are part of the lynch mob mentality in the Natalie Hollaway case.

The analogy the writer made is to the group mind think situation that happened. An innocent was harmed and eventually killed as a result of the lynch mob mentality. There was a fair amount of discussion about this situation here about a week ago.

Better analogies the writer may have chosen from history might have been the Salem Witch trials in the US, lynching of black men in the US south in past history (a fictional case illustrated in "To Kill a Mockingbird"). Even then though, the same very concrete thinkers may have taken offense and insisted that the writer was comparing Joran to the victim of the lynch mob. One really cannot help a literalistic concrete thinker type to develop the ability to think abstractly. I have concluded that it is just best to let it go, as they will just continue to argue their dogmatic point, and they will never understand no matter how many ways it is explained.

[fried]

sharon,

or maybe she just picked up her brother's, by mistake, before she left. was HER dna on it? or just the males? was that dna compared to her's and her family? how many uses would it take to remove a persons dna from a toothbrush? if one of her roomates had a boy in the room, and her toothbrush was in the bathroom, (i wouldn't, but...) he may have freshened up.

[katie]

I have worked in the mental health profession for many years and I am certain the writer has a mental illness, definitely a personality and characterological disorder for sure. So there is really no point in writing any replies to his rambling thoughts as that will only encourage him. He likes the attention and interest he has generated. Best to move on to a different reply column.

[George T.]

RE:
Posted by: shonane | Aug 19, 2005 3:09:02 PM

You GOT it!

[mayamoon]

God....that post by shonane hits the friggin nail on the head re "concrete" thinkers.... I call them black and white or all or nothing....there is no gray for these folks. And the true crux of the matter is that no amount of evidence will change their POV.

I frankly think that it is a neurotransmitter issue that does not allow them to see shades of gray, or calmly assess options other than their own "cast in stone" perspective, without blowing a gasket.

I had an epiphany a few years back that if we put Prozac in the public water supply, perhaps a whole lot o' people would become mellow!!!!

[chickadee]

I believe it is called having convictions-ever hear of that? When you truly believe in something(God,for example), all of the evidence in the world won't change your mind. It's called having CONVICTIONS-get it?

[Readthis]

http://www.verafay.com/