Six Docs and a DA

Difficult to tell if Beth Twitty means the docs were redacted, or something wasn't there she thought should be.

"And you know, the one thing that really concerns me is, I flew out six documents, six declarations. I won't say which ones. But when you see that key elements are purposely omitted from these declarations, now I see how the investigation took the turns it did early on with those two security guards (who were held briefly, then released)

And it looks like Hillary has some competition. Don't know enough about Pirro to say much, but she tends to look good on camera - has a rep as a DA - and she's pro-choice.

Pirro has won praise for her Internet stings of would-be child molesters, her work with battered women and her battle against underage drinking. She had often been seen on national television as a commentator on high-profile crimes. In 1997, she made People magazine's "most beautiful people" list. She has been a supporter of abortion rights.

Comments

[leeza]

The BHT machine has gone over the edge with the claims of flying out investigatory documents. First, if they are originals, it could be a cime to "obtain" them. Second, if they are copies, everyone on earth knows how easy it is to alter copies. Third, this case involves a juvenile, and court records are routinely redacted and sealed. Add to this nonsence, the "predator" claim she keeps making based on normal teenage activity (bolstered by one, count 'em, one witness!). No wonder vdS family has 9 (or 15 or 500) lawyers ready to make certain that the CIVILIZED, PROCEDURAL, FORMAL, ESTABLISHED protections afforded ALL citizens are honored.

[angelaberdine]

Go, Jeanine. You are America's hope!

[Susan P.]

Does anyone know if he will be tried as a juvenille since Natalee disappeared when he was a juv. or if he will be tried as an adult (that is if he is ever tried)

Susan P.

[toothfairy]

what does MSM stand for?

[DennisAOK]

It would be nice if New Yorkers would elect one of their own to the Senate, but liberalism seems to be in the water there.

[DennisAOK]

Hi Leeza,

Mark Fuhrman made a good point the other night. Another reason for hiring so many attorneys is to deny them to the other side.

[Dan]

Susan - a juvenile, I would think. That's how it would be in the US.

TF - MSM = Main Stream Media ... as opposed to alternative media.

[Paulo]

Susan,

I am not altogether certain insofar as the extraordinary circumstances. First, JvdS hasn't been charged; therefore, I believe that the charges will be made and he will be eighteen, an alleged adult.

Second, I can't positively get the source, however, I did hear some talk of this notion on FoxNews. It was Arlene and Greta and I think they agreed it would be as an adult.

I think it would serve all of us some good if we were to remember that we are dealing with DUTCH LAW, and most of it is so antiquated it belongs in a previous century.

For what it's worth: I like Pirro. She is a REAL person, with real agendas,looking to serve real people where she really lives. No hidden agenda here. She tough, articulate, and has her heart and aim in the right spot.

Paulo

[mrp]

August 8, 2005
Natalee: A Mystery That Has A Solution!
By: Jossy M. Mansur

One of the cases with the highest profile known in recent times, happened on Aruba and kept (and is still keeping) the attention of the Aruban and American People, just like other people around the world, tied to it to know the few real details that have been given. On Aruba, comments given by certain “experts” in the U.S. have caused some disgust, since in reality those comments have not adjusted themselves to the reality of our islands, nor of our Police Corps.

Several of us (including lawyers) have decided to talk openly with the gigantic media companies that are on Aruba, to satisfy the titanic demand that exists to know the developments in this case Unfounded criticism has been launched against us, not because we have decided to talk the truth, but because envy is a difficult thing to keep under control.

Listen, people: the more you try to hide the truth, the harder it is going to hit you when it gets out. The damage that has been done by those media communications are superficial, momentary and products of minds who have little analytical capability. To make ourselves ridiculous walking on the street with denigrating signs about the U.S. or its biggest news media, belongs to people without brains, without the real capacity to measure the consequences of such actions. Let the defense of Aruba in the hands of the Americans, and let [the Americans] know that we are willing to answer whatever question that they have without fear of speaking the truth. Remember that the battle between David and Goliath is a Bible story. Today, in a 1000 such battles, in 999 of the cases, Goliath would swallow David whole!

Furthermore, the publicity for Aruba as tourist island, as desirable destination to have a pleasant vacation, is so immense, that there is not enough money to pay a second of it. The publicized images by all the channels are so beautiful that I myself want to visit again the beaches that I have more than 30 years without enjoying. People who live in the most remote parts of the world know now about Aruba, where it is, how beautiful the beaches are, how attractive and modern the hotels are, and when this case comes to its conclusion (and it will come!) the boom in tourism for Aruba is going to be so enormous that will leave everyone stunned!

Now the cardinal question: Why not allow the FBI actively participate in the case? It has been present since the first day alongside the Police, as observers, speaking to and sharing experience with our cops, but not free to participate actively in the investigations. Allow me to compare the participation of the FBI with the medical attention that our people receive abroad. When a patient in Aruba, for example, in a advanced state of his/her illness, can’t be attended anymore by our doctors, what do we do? Do we let him/her die in the hospital or do we send him/her abroad to receive adequate medical care that we don’t have in Aruba? Of course that we sent him/her to save his/her life!. That does not mean that our doctors are incompetent, nor that they don’t know what they are doing, but that we don’t have the sophisticated equipment that the big countries have.

The same for our Police Corps. This is a case that, because of its implications, because of the mystery involved, because of the demotivation caused by the Minister of Justice in his war against our cops, must be opened completely to FBI veterans, one of the most professional agency in the world! And completely free! Bringing them in is not a reflection on the capacity of our cops, on the contrary, it demonstrates their professionalism and their will to resolve this case in the most efficient and rapid way.

Currently, a small Russian submarine is stuck under sea and three countries offered help to Russia (a gigantic country!), U.S., U.K. and Japan. What did Russia say? No, I don’t want your help? No! [Russia] said that she accepts all help that can save the life of the crew on board of the submarine! And they have been rescued! Here is an enormous country, with all sorts of technology, that accepts the help of other countries, why can we in Aruba not do the same?

The letter of Nel [Oduber, PM] and Rudy [Croes, Minister of Justice] on itself is not enough, it must go further in consulting with Foreign Relations in the Netherlands, for them to take the iniciative in contacting the State Department and allow, just like we permit the intervention of doctors in Houston, Venezuela and Colombia, the intervention of the super-effective agents of the FBI!

Those who want to keep on criticizing our interventions on television may keep on doing so because in my case it will have no effect: I will keep on informing the Aruban People and American People on the details that here at Diario we are able to discover via our contacts. The vast majority of people, know that I’m not going to think, speak or do something that is against the interests of Aruba.

I am of the opinion that we are reaching the conclusion of this case. It’s not going to be a mystery that will stay without a solution. Our police agents, and the Justice Department are much more prepared to take the case to Court than what many think. Prosecutor Jansen feels that she has a very strong case, and what deals with the team of Aruban investigators, headed by the always effective Roy Tromp, he is totally competent and has enough evidence to present (via Prosecutor) a solid case against the guilty in the disappearance of the American citizen, Natalee Holloway, that came to Aruba to celebrate her graduation, and disappeared. This case deserves all the attention that we can give to resolve it, and so permit the family to take her back to Birmingham, to thus go on with their lives and achieve the spiritual and mental peace that they need to survive the loss of a child, which is a tragedy of enormous magnitude.

[Justice for Natalee]

The Diario article makes me hopeful!

[Taylor]

Oh my God, Jossy says it brilliantly!

[Newbee]

Jossy says it brilliantly... I have a speck of hope now:)

[annie]

Oh my Gosh, Jossy said something so it must be true. Have you people not noticed that he seems a bit "misinformed"? What about his report that had Natalee riding in a sedan in Venezuela? He is antigovernment, anti-Dutch, tabloid trash. But keep on believing him if that gets you through the day.

[scubajap]

I admit Jossy has jumped the gun on many things, and I am not a fan. But this article is to the Aruban people, to calm their agitation at a U.S. agency is on their sovereign soil, and to be cooperative in an investigation.
If this is from Diario, then it was in Papiamento, and it is an editorial, not a news article. He is just trying to calm down the Aruba hotheads.

[Treehugger]

You are so right, Annie ! Jossy has all the credibility of Geraldo Rivera, and his intentions are very questionable.
The sedan...how about him running after the white van claiming Nat was inside ? All his claims that Joran has changed his story are complete lies, if one of his "contacts" had actually slipped him a copy of a confession, this whole thing would have been tossed out.
Tim Miller is denied access to drain a pond, so suddenly Jossy comes up with a witness, pond is almost drained, police suspect they have been had, draining is stopped...witness vanishes.
Anyone with two brain cells rubbing together can see that this whole SCAM is being run by a gossip columnist and a bunch of shady businessmen, with Beth as a spokesperson, now making political commentary. Jossy and Jug are old buddies, which implies ALOT. Ask yourself what Jossy stands to gain from all of this...
Not that any of the Twitty groupies are going to actually delve into any information themselves, they'd rather have Nancy Grace and Greta spoonfeed them their opinon.
Believe what he writes at your own risk !

[DennisAOK]

Anyone with two brain cells rubbing together can see that this whole SCAM is being run by a gossip columnist and a bunch of shady businessmen, with Beth as a spokesperson, now making political commentary. Jossy and Jug are old buddies, which implies ALOT. Ask yourself what Jossy stands to gain from all of this...
Not that any of the Twitty groupies are going to actually delve into any information themselves, they'd rather have Nancy Grace and Greta spoonfeed them their opinon.

Posted by: Treehugger | August 8, 2005 05:17 PM

I nominate the above commentary as the single most nonsensical verbiage yet to appear on this board.

What exactly is the scam, and who are the shady businessmen? What political commentary is Beth making, other than complaining about lousy police work and an opaque investigation? And what is Jossy's great ulterior motive, as you see it? I agree his commentary is hardly cold fact and is likely to be sensationalized, but he has been offering to help by providing bulldozers, etc. By the way, Jug and Jossy first met this summer. They are scarcely old buddies. Even if they were, what would an old friendship imply? And who are the Twitty "groupies", and what would constitute "delving into information", and not having it spoon fed? The Twittys are trying to get all the information they can. When they press hard, people tell them to back off and respect the Aruban system. Karin Jannsen said she had a good case against the Kalpoe brothers, but they were released from jail. Perhaps you should throw a few questions her way.

[Treehugger]

Sorry DennisAOK- But, after this, I will not be wasting my time responding to the braindead couch potatoes. It is very obvious that you don't have a single clue. If you are really interested in finding out what is really going on(which I doubt) you'll have to actually THINK for yourself and do some research, instead of cozying up to the rest of the sheeple.

[iremember]

Doubters:

As tabloid (sensational journalism) as Jossy Mansur is, why on earth would he go on record, so many times, to state that this case has been mishandled if there were not some reason to believe that. As an Arubian (?) and someone whose livlihood and fortunes are intimately bound up with Aruba, he would be much safer taking a "middle ground" "wait and see" approach.

It just does not make sense that he would go so far out on a limb just to sell papers....I mean, how big a market do you think Aruba represents?

No, I think he knows what many of us on RWV suspect, that there is fire under all that smoke, and that the way that this case has been handled is a blot on the international reputation of Aruba.

[`]

You are being your lawyerly self, in excess, Dennis.

Even those that are staunchly defending Beth have issues with Jossy. And while some of these people may not be "old friends," some very strong alliances have been formed. Some of these are way too close for professional objectivity and people naturally get uncomfortable with that. Greta is already being invited to Holloway family gatherings, which she blogs about. She is basking in what she calls "Southern hospitality." She is also actually enjoying her trips to Aruba a little too much. We all prefer our own friends and lean heavily toward their sides.

Think about Dennis.

[`]

You ask who are the "Twitty groupies?" Dennis, I'm disappointed in you.

By the way, you would do well as a defense lawyer even though I suspect you'll say your talent is in prosecuting. It takes this sort of clever, but with blinders on sort of rationale to effectively, (and without shame) defend certain criminals.

[`]

Doubters:

As tabloid (sensational journalism) as Jossy Mansur is, why on earth would he go on record, so many times, to state that this case has been mishandled if there were not some reason to believe that. As an Arubian (?) and someone whose livlihood and fortunes are intimately bound up with Aruba, he would be much safer taking a "middle ground" "wait and see" approach.

It just does not make sense that he would go so far out on a limb just to sell papers....I mean, how big a market do you think Aruba represents?

No, I think he knows what many of us on RWV suspect, that there is fire under all that smoke, and that the way that this case has been handled is a blot on the international reputation of Aruba.

Posted by: iremember | August 8, 2005 06:14 PM

Jossy is an old, would-be journalistic star, who has finally achieved everything he ever dreamt of and always felt he deserved.

He really could care less if Joran is guilty.

As Dr. Phil would say--he's getting his reward. Many people are. The only ones who are absolutely sincere (though NOT absolutely honest,) are Beth and Dave, Natalee's parents.

[DennisAOK]

iremember,

Good post!

` ,

Greta admitted in an early blog she sometimes becomes emotionally attached to the families of missing persons that she covers. (I think it would very difficult not to in this case.) And, since the Aruban authorities won't give out information, and the Kalpoes and van der Sloots aren't talking (understandably, although she did interview them early on), her coverage consists of talking with journalists, lawyers, and Natalee's family, which some might interpret as biased. Does this make her a "Twitty groupie"? I think not. If anything, she has been rather easy on the Aruban authorities, never criticizing too sharply, and says only that she is "suspicious" of Joran. She has even outlined scenarios, somewhat far fetched, in which he could be innocent, e.g., he left her at the beach and someone else abducted her. (For some reason he then lied about his time line for the evening.)

By the way, I have a law degree but my profession is financial advisor, not lawyer.

Treehugger,

I try to respect all opinions here and not engage in personal attacks, but I honestly have trouble understanding what it is you are trying to say, other than that Jossy is not a reliable source of information, with which I agree.

[fried]

early in this case, when jossey first started talking, someone, (professing) to be from aruba, laughed at his paper, saying few on the island read it and those that did, never took him seriously. this article is a good reason to believe that statement. i don't know if it was just the translation, but he seems to be putting himself and the island down more than he is supporting
it. he appears to be just where he wants to be, in the spotlight.

[leeza]

I remember - if Jossy took the "wait and see" approach, he wouldn't be starring nightly on cable TV turned reality shows. If he took the "middle ground" approach, he wouldn't be selling newspapers at nearly the rate his tabloid is flying off the shelf. Consider the fact that sometimes where there is smoke, there is JUST smoke.
DennisAOK - I think the BHT machine has gone too far. Showing up at the internet cafe with a camera crew and attempting to discuss a possible crime with a suspect is stalking. Beth said that Deepak Kalpoe "seemed nervous" and "wouldn't look her in the eye". What, on this earth, did she expect? I expect a restraining order against her now, and she will be blubbing about how the officials are picking on her. Of course, maybe the magistrate will be swayed by the fact that Beth's new mission (according to her) is to "protect the integrity of Aruba".

[FloridaPatty]

Jossy said:
Allow me to compare the participation of the FBI with the medical attention that our people receive abroad. When a patient in Aruba, for example, in a advanced state of his/her illness, can’t be attended anymore by our doctors, what do we do? Do we let him/her die in the hospital or do we send him/her abroad to receive adequate medical care that we don’t have in Aruba? Of course that we sent him/her to save his/her life!. That does not mean that our doctors are incompetent, nor that they don’t know what they are doing, but that we don’t have the sophisticated equipment that the big countries have.
BOOM!

(and)

Currently, a small Russian submarine is stuck under sea and three countries offered help to Russia (a gigantic country!), U.S., U.K. and Japan. What did Russia say? No, I don’t want your help? No! [Russia] said that she accepts all help that can save the life of the crew on board of the submarine! And they have been rescued! Here is an enormous country, with all sorts of technology, that accepts the help of other countries, why can we in Aruba not do the same?

(and)

This case deserves all the attention that we can give to resolve it, and so permit the family to take her back to Birmingham, to thus go on with their lives and achieve the spiritual and mental peace that they need to survive the loss of a child, which is a tragedy of enormous magnitude.
.................................................

If he's scamming or not, outstanding performance. Well spoken Jossy. Very good point with the medical intervention analogy and also the Russian situation. very good indeed.

Wonderful article whether you like the man or not.

[DennisAOK]

leeza,

Your position, as I understand it, is:

1. Aruban law enforcement is are doing a good job, but, even if they are not, we should respect a foreign criminal justice system and not criticize it;

2. The Twittys should not be critical either, and if they are it is because they are either mentally unbalanced and/or enjoying their media exposure; and

3. Jossy is pro-Twitty and is critical of Aruban law enforcement only because it helps sell newspapers and keeps him in the limelight.

If so, I reply as follows:

1. The investigators have shown themselves to be lackadaisical and inept, violating international standards from early on. For those who say there is no “proof” against the three boys, this is why.

2. I am sorry, but my sympathies go with a family that has lost a daughter, and not those who hide behind legal formalities. Very little was done in this case until Beth started complaining and the media gave it attention. The family deserves answers. If the Dutch legal system is so worthy of respect, its representatives need to earn it.

3. How do you know what Jossy’s motives are? The man is well off financially. Is selling a few more newspapers and being interviewed on American television all that concern him? Isn’t it possible he is genuinely moved by the plight of the Twitty’s and would like to help them and see justice done? As for Beth, I won’t endorse all her words and deeds, but she might have felt there is an ounce of conscience in Deepak and thought she might appeal to it. Dave Holloway probably thought the same thing in wanting to see Joran in jail. Foolish and naïve in your world, perhaps, where everyone is motivated only by money, self-advancement, and legal claims, but probably worth a shot.

[frenchymom]

Jossy did well

[leeza]

DennisAOK-My answer to your reply is:
1) I don't care if one critiizes a foreign criminal justice system, but one must respect the fact that a sovergn nation is entitled to enforce its own code, whether that's the way we like it or not. Exactly which "international standards" were violated?
2) I suppose you never worked as a defense attorney. Legal formalities are there to protect us all, not just the guilty. I am not the only person who sees todays Twitty activity as actively interfering with an ongoing investigation, as well as stalking a suspect who obviously is entitled to maintain his rights. I have tremendous empathy for Mrs. Twitty also, but I feel legal protections of citizens supercede the short-term, feel-good, camera-always-ready showdowns in this or any case.
3) Jossy Mansur prints an anti-government tabloid that is considered a joke on the island. He isn't interested in selling papers now so much as getting his face all over the TV. I expect to see him being interviewed by Jon Stewart on the Daily Show any time now. But if you believe his numerous "finds", then have at it. I think history has shown you'll be disappointed.

[leeza]

DennisAOK-I also meant to make the point that Jossy Mansur could be actually motivated by empathy, but he COULD help this family quietly, without the numerous interviews and "leads" that have proven false repeatedly. Remember when he knew Natalee was riding in a sedan in Venezuela? It's not fair to get the hopes up for the family or audience, but he has to have a new angle for every interview.
P.S. My son is starting and Washington and Lee law school in Lexington, VA in fall. This is a good school, no?

[shonane]

I am not altogether certain insofar as the extraordinary circumstances. First, JvdS hasn't been charged; therefore, I believe that the charges will be made and he will be eighteen, an alleged adult.

===================================
In US, whether charged as juvenile or adult depends on age when the crime was committed, not when charges are made.

Don't know if Aruba has direct filing as adult which is often done in US for more serious crimes, usually applied only to 16 and 17 yr olds, sometimes younger if the crime is extremely horrific, but frequently this tends to be a prosecutor's preference. Some state's attorney's offices tend to direct file to an extreme and others rarely.

[shonane]

As tabloid (sensational journalism) as Jossy Mansur is, why on earth would he go on record, so many times, to state that this case has been mishandled if there were not some reason to believe that.

===================================
On one interview it was said that the HOTTEST news and activity on the Island is the upcoming elections. It is getting hot and dirty. When the press is heavily critizing those in power, they are helping the people who are running against them. I do not know what offices are up for election. But, in answer to your question - ELECTIONS are the motive and making sure some incumbents lose. That's my theory.

Maybe someone from Aruba can clarify what offices are up for grabs.

[jayjay]

First of all, let me enlighten certain people here who may fancy themselves a lawyer or legal expert...

Beth Twitty has every right to approach whoever she chooses, LEGALLY! (Yes here AND Aruba)

There was no imminent threat to Deepak and it is not a pattern of behavior exhibited by Beth toward Deepak so he has NO grounds for a restraining order!

Please, sitting in a law library on a university campus does not make someone a legal expert. Opinions are fantastic and it makes these threads "go 'round", but let’s not make statements about the legality of someone’s actions unless we are sure!!

[jayjay]

DennisAOK,

My last post was not meant for you by the way! I happen to agree with your perspective as well as your characterization of another "posters" point of view. However, I would like to know what "international standards" you are referring to...

People warning about forthcoming "orders of protection" or "restraining orders" against Beth are off base and frankly quite silly! You are probably aware of this, but to some others, the criteria for these orders of protection have not been met by ANY legal standard that I am aware of, here or under Dutch law…

Keep up the good work Sir!!

[jayjay]

Leeza,

Although I disagree with almost ALL of what you say here, I must encourge you about your son attending Washington & Lee... Excellent School!!!

[jayjay]

I meant encourage not encourge...sorry!