His parents say the only thing established for sure is that Joran was with Natalee the night she vanished, and they stand by his insistence that he didn't hurt her.
"News should be based on facts," Anita says. "If not, it's a show … to damage people, to slander people. That is no news, no news at all."
Better not let Geraldo hear you say that ... he might open your safe.
I think Joran missed an opportunity to at the beginning. All Dave Holloway asked was for Joran to look him in the eye...
Posted by: iwabwu | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:16 PM
"News shuld be based on facts.""If not, it's a show … to damage people, to slander people. That is no news, no news at all."
Anita The fact is your son is a liar and was seen after he said he was home.
For Shame Anita. Is natalee's life worth less than your son's?
Get the truth from him before its too late.
Posted by: Tanya | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:28 PM
"News should be based on facts," Anita says. "If not, it's a show … to damage people, to slander people. That is no news, no news at all."
Good gawd! Naive and idealistic to the end.(sigh)
Posted by: MarlboroGal | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:41 PM
I had posted this earlier in #160,
***************************************
Dan, did you watch the Van der Sloots video on CBS? That Anita is so outspoken and criticizes the US media, the Holloways as a way to defend her criminal, gambling and drinking and sex pervert teeange son, and she says "all I want is my kid back, enough is enough" While the Papa No body-no crime, says he has been telling the "trught", nothing but the "trught" and he has always told Joran to tell the "trught", oh yeah?
Anita wants her kid back, but Beth, looks like she will never get hers back.
Posted by: oneyka | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:47 PM
Paulus and Anita and there no news blather remind me of a World Cup soccer match I attended. In the midst of a hostile to neutral crowd , this large red-
faced Dutch dolt with a large, orange wooden shoe strapped to his head, seemingly oblivious to what was going on on the field, just stood there and
bellowed "Holland" over and over while everyone around him heckled and laughed at him. Wake up; the Aruba police have outright said that they think you
were involved in Natalee's disappearance. Sorry, you can't impose a room temperature IQ on people who care about what happened to Natalee.
Posted by: juninho | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:50 PM
Anita The fact is your son is a liar [...]
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 30, 2005 9:28:30 PM
The Twitty's have lied too. So what does that tell? Nothing, really. It does tell these people told lies, nothing less, nothing more. People can only guess for the motives. These guesses presenting as facts is _indeed_ no news.
Posted by: fokje | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:54 PM
The biggest problem is that nobody has an accurate timeline of everything that happened from at least 7:00 p.m. on the night she disappeared until 6:00 a.m. the next day. Until absolutely every witness comes forward to account for every minute, we will have nothing to do on. That's the key issue.
Posted by: resorttownmom | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:55 PM
At one point Anita says she wants Joran to "get on with his life."
Even though I cut her some slack for being the mother of a son she feels is innocent, I feel that is a crass, thoughtless, insensitive statement to make in light of the fact that Natalee almost assuredly has no life to "get on with".
Posted by: LornaD | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:55 PM
Anita The fact is your son is a liar [...]
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 30, 2005 9:28:30 PM
The Twitty's have lied too. So what does that tell? Nothing, really. It does tell these people told lies, nothing less, nothing more. People can only guess for the motives. These guesses presenting as facts is _indeed_ no news.
Posted by: fokje | Aug 30, 2005 9:54:30 PM
NATALEE Is missing. nor joran yet save this for when he is
Posted by: Tanya | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 09:56 PM
NATALEE Is missing.
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 30, 2005 9:56:22 PM
yes?
and that gives the right for lynching first and regret later?
no offend intended, btw
Posted by: fokje | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:01 PM
I think at this point paulus may have lied more than juron...
Posted by: Observer | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:03 PM
if i listen to the media, and those who feed the media..yes, including the twittys, everyone has a different story....even the biological parents differ in their stories...where is the truth if everyone seeks the truth, then yee all shall abide and tell the truth as well...can someone tell me what is the truth here please?....everyone that we listened to here lied, therefore let us set examples; beth, prosecution, jug, -le, joran, kalpoes, anita, et al...-practice what you preach!!!
the only one that would tell us the truth is -Natalee.....shame on anyone who is twisting this tragedy into a travesty to suit their selfish narrowminded pride...peace to the world...
Posted by: speaker | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:06 PM
I wonder btw why they are doing this interview right now. Joran may be released these days...
Posted by: fokje | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:09 PM
Anita: Clueless in Aruba
Posted by: Justice for Natalee | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:14 PM
News should be based on facts.""If not, it's a show … to damage people, to slander people. That is no news, no news at all."
Anita The fact is your son is a liar and was seen after he said he was home.
For Shame Anita. Is natalee's life worth less than your son's?
Get the truth from him before its too late.
Posted by: Tanya | Aug 30, 2005 9:28:30 PM
_____________
Tanya, Joran did lie but if I was 17 and in the position he was in I would lie too. Learn one basic thing, guilty or innocent if you are accused you say nothing or give misinformation. You do not give any information for the police to twist to their advantage. You talk to the police with a lawyer present and allow the lawyer to coach you.
Joran and Natalee both have lives that are valuable to a lot of people. I believe that Paulus and Anita would hold to the value of both. Just be fair and let proof speak rather than your preconceived ideas.
In 1912 a young girl was killed in Atlanta and she was said to have been in a factory where the factory superintendent was working at the time. He was accused and found guilty of murder and sent to prison. Later a mob broke this "guilty" man out of jail and lynched him. Today, we know that he was NOT the killer. Everyone jumped to fast and condemned him before the truth was found.
You can either seek justice for Joran or you can join the lynch mob of the air assembled by a mother out for revenge on the closest person handy, Greta, Geraldo, and Jossy. Let us seek justice. Give the kid a break.
When you say your prayers for Natalee say one for Joran too that truth and justice will be the end of this horror show for many people.
A Friend of Joran Van der Sloot
Posted by: Robert | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:44 PM
Better not let Geraldo hear you say that ... he might open your safe.
ah Dan, you're showing your age. I stayed up to watch that show as cheesy as it was. What a hoot when it was empty.
Posted by: FloridaPatty | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 10:49 PM
robert, professed friend of jvds, evidently studied law at the feet of paulus. "joran did lie and if i was in the position he was in, i would lie too. guilty or innocent if you are accused you say nothing or you give misinformation." wonderful instructions for a father to teach his son and friends.
the way i learned it is "don't do anything you have to lie about, and if you do something stupid and get caught, be a man and take your punishment and don't lie about it. tell the truth the lst time and you don't ever have to change your story, because the truth is the truth."
paulus has lied. jvds has lied on numerous occasions, and an innocent young girl has lost her life because of jvds' actions.
Posted by: dennis | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 11:41 PM
A Friend of Joran Van der Sloot
Posted by: Robert | Aug 30, 2005 10:44:45 PM
Seems you need to learn how to pick your friends a bit better.
The only prayer I say for Joran is that if he gets out of jail for some reason, that justice will be done to him by others, since law enforcement seems to want to protect him.
Posted by: stellartrack | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 11:47 PM
Ty Robert. So many people here are quick to spout rhetoric without any real basis or just react to their own learned behaviors. It used to be here in USA that someone was innocent until proven guilty. With the onset of this new media coverage that has emerged on fox, msnbc, Nancy Grace etc...all it seems to do is inflame its viewers rather than impart any quality info. The fact of this "pimp gang" as recently reported, does not mention that most of Aruba's youth refer to their social clubs as gangs. Their associations are founded on common interests...dirt bikes, motorcycles, drag-racing with names such as drift monkeys, race junkies, class mates, whatever. It does not mean there's something sinister amidst. (Don't know when was the last time I saw the "gang" on "girls gone wild" on TV) I did not see the VDS interview but I can only imagine the American reactions. If there are any real investigative reporters still in the midst of this new wave of reporters, I would love to see them dig deep into all of this hoopla in this case. I mean a real, in depth quality reporting on the perceptions, the little known truths, the prejudices & an extensive research of all the players in this melodrama. Old-fashioned news coverage rather than its the 82nd day of this missing teenager. Find out whether its legal to take copies of legal documents off the island of Aruba. Which parties abetted in this action? How did this information come to exchange hands with someone outside of the Arubian police dept? You know, those types of things other than what we accepted as news reporting from Aruba. 60 minutes where are you? Just curious....
Posted by: Mi Dushi Aruba | Tuesday, August 30, 2005 at 11:51 PM
I think Joran missed an opportunity to at the beginning. All Dave Holloway asked was for Joran to look him in the eye...
Posted by: iwabwu
========================
Huh? I don't think Joran and Dave Holloway ever met, did they?
Posted by: shonane | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:15 AM
"News should be based on facts," Anita says. "If not, it's a show … to damage people, to slander people. That is no news, no news at all."
I agree with Anita.
Posted by: shonane | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:17 AM
TO THIS ROBERT:
DO NOT GET BLINDED BY YOUR SO CALLED "FRIENSHIP" WITH THE ACCUSED KILLER. HE KILLED MORALLY AND PERHAPS PHYSICALLY THE LIVES OF MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN HIS OWN FAMILY. DO NOT GET BLINDED AND ASK FOR A BREAK FOR JORAN, DID HE AND THE K2 GAVE NATALEE A BREAK, FOR HER LIFE, HER FUTURE? EVEN IF HE LEFT HER "UNHARMED" AT THE BEACH (ALLOW ME A SARCASTIC LAUGH!) HE LEFT HER IN HARM'S WAY, WHICH INHUMANE, INMORAL, MEAN, VICIOUS, STUPID, BUT THEN MAN RECEIVES TWO EDUCATIONS IN LIFE, ONE IN HIS PARENTS HOME, THE OTHER IN SCHOOL. HE MUST TO BE A VERY GOOD STUDENT AT HOME! LIARS!
Posted by: oneyka | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:22 AM
Hi
Anita and Paulus have raised a juvenile delinquent.
The media is NOT MAKING JORAN look guilty, he did this himself !
He lied .. his first alibi.. was responsible for two innocent men being jailed.
How many stories did he have ? And this was a story agreed on by the family ? Even Tromp said he had never seen anything like it.
Your upbringing.. protecting him.. covering up for him.. instilling a sense of entitlement :
LIAR
DRINKER
GAMBLER
BOASTER
PROMISCIUOS ( can't spell it )
CHEATER
NO CONTROL OVER ANGER
VIOLENT.. ASSAULTS PEOPLE
WHY ARE HIS FRIENDS IN JAIL ?
for :
PRE MEDITATED MURDER " suspicians "
RAPE " suspicians "
Birds of a feather flock together.
He's good at tennis. Yahoo for Joran.
The name of Van Der Sloot will always = all the bad things a person could be.
Anita, You think your kid is wonderful, but the rest of us know better !
Posted by: Kat_Gram | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:23 AM
paulus has lied.
Posted by: dennis | Aug 30, 2005 11:41:04 PM
==================
What lie? I am not aware of any that have been credibly documented.
Posted by: shonane | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:26 AM
Here come de' judge!
Posted by: clintcarter | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:29 AM
Find out whether its legal to take copies of legal documents off the island of Aruba. Which parties abetted in this action? How did this information come to exchange hands with someone outside of the Arubian police dept?
Posted by: Mi Dushi Aruba | Aug 30, 2005 11:51:06 ================
That's something I have been curious about myself. Since BHT was contesting the information in the official documents that the Aruba PI allowed her to view,saying they did not agree with others she had obtained, then I wondered where exactly did she get such documents, and if some were torn, then must have been out of a garbage can and not even the official records.
If someone got copies illegally from the US prosecutors office, they would be locked up.
Posted by: shonane | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:36 AM
kat gram:
you are very right in everything you wrote!
The word is spelled : PROMISCUOS
and : SUSPECTS
Posted by: oneyka | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:39 AM
Tanya, Joran did lie but if I was 17 and in the position he was in I would lie too.
Posted by: Robert | Aug 30, 2005 10:44:45 PM
Well at least you two "friends" have something in common. So why should we expect the truth from you??? No one knows what happened except him and the Kbros--he KNOWS what happened to Natalee--if he didn't kill her, he knows what did happen--at the very LEAST he knows which direction this investigation needs to go. That's all--her family just wants him to tell the truth. If he didnt kill her than who is he protecting? And I suppose you think it's appropriate that your "friend" took advantage of a drunk girl in the back of his "friends" car? I suppose that if you were 17 and in that position you would do the same thing? BTW are you on the now infamous tickle site?? I like checking out Jurons gangsta wannabe poser friends. If I sound hostile well I'm sick of people saying what a great person Juron is "News should be based on facts," Anita says. Well, TELL US THE FACTS!! And the media and everyone will leave your cesspool of an island alone.
Posted by: systemofadown | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:45 AM
Mr. Paulus Van DerSLOOT!
It seems to me that some GLARING contradictions highlight the primary problem in this case.
--------------------------------------
"We are not hiding anything. We are telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth. And we've always told Joran to do [sic] tell the truth."
Paul van der Sloot, father of suspect in Natalee Holloway case in cbs INTERVIEW 8-30-05
"Joran, You say nothing. You say nothing." Paul van der Sloot, on the night Natalee was missing and her parents WERE trying to get THE TRUTH!!!
=======================================
"Our goal is to get Joran back," Anita says. "I just want my kid back. It has been enough. It really has been enough."
It really has, Anita!
"Joran, You say nothing. You say nothing." Paul van der Sloot, on the night Natalee was missing and her parents trying to get THE TRUTH!!!
=======================================
"News should be based on facts," Anita says in cbs INTERVIEW 8-30-05.
"Joran, You say nothing. You say nothing." Paul van der Sloot, on the night Natalee was missing and her parents trying to get THE TRUTH!!!
Here's a well know FACT:
"Joran has been the main suspect, and the primary focus of prosecutors," says CBS News correspondent Kelly Cobiella.
This has been the result of decisions of your own countrymen. Not anyone from America! Or have you not read the Aruban court documents?
"His parents say the only thing established for sure is that Joran was with Natalee the night she vanished."
=======================================
But another contradiction here!!
We know for sure that J gave false stories about WHERE he left her and in WHAT CONDITION he left her.
The judge himself stated on camera that such contradictions as these were the basis of holding him in prison.
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:49 AM
Would somebody please tell me what the Twitty's have lied about? I believe they're just repeating what they're told by the "powers that be." It was Beth & jug that Joran met face-to-face, not Dave. Anita & Paulus believe their brat when he says he didn't hurt Natalee. Can you kill someone with drugs and them not feel pain? If so, then the brat didn't "hurt" Natalee. He only took her life without pain.Paulus is in this up to his receding hairline. Was he sweating during the interview?
Posted by: punkingale | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:52 AM
I was just in too much of a hurry. I always use spell checker at work and on emails, and I can't spell anymore.
I couldn't even finish watching the Van Der Sloot video.
I guess we'll see tomorrow. They want to hold VDS for another 30 days. Hope they lay some charges against people.
In Canada, we have laws about lying to police.
He has a right to remain silent. Why did they all lie from the get go. They lied to buy themselves time. If Joran were in Canada, he would be charged with public mischief / obstruction / and hindering an investigation.
Nancy Grace said that the " suspicions " are felony murder that the Kaploes are being held on.
They ( the K brothers ) aren't being held on " boys will be boys " pranks ie mooning the neighbours, these are serious charges.
Posted by: Kat_Gram | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:56 AM
Wait a minute, AK, that's a large burden to put on the very statement every American learns from watching tv;
Say Nothing Until A Lawyer Is Present,
And you are clear on the charges.
A great deal of Judgement meted out against what is still Hearsay and sloppy police work at ALL (incl. interviews) levels.
Posted by: clintcarter | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 12:58 AM
Hey!
For one friggin' thing, we let our kids get away with pretty much anything. we buy them 80 dollar jeans etc, cellphones,computers etc,so were is their learning curve? whens the last time you watched the younger generation open a door for a women? huh? or call them ma'am or MR.So and so? Doesn't happen anymore, might happen in a smaller scale, if your in a small community. So? Where are we going? these kids are, IMO, not going, how we were brought up. So, hence?
Posted by: Iamcanadian | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:04 AM
Anita vds is a disgusting insulting pig. For her to lash out at Beth Holloway shows how deranged these people are. "hes a good boy." "he was scared".
He dropped her at the hotel, she stumbled and I think I saw 2 black security guards. No wait, I left her at the beach.
they raised a rapist a liar and a murderer and she lashes out at Natalee's Mom. I remember how convinced Anita VDS was that Natalee was alive in her first interview. She can't accept reality. All of which would be normal but to now lash out at the Holloways and set the grounds for a lawsuit? When are the people of Aruba going to realize that this family is bringing harm to Aruba and not the Holloways?
Posted by: frank | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:09 AM
Ah but Mr. Carter, I was speaking of telling the TRUTH (as Paulus stated he always did and TOLD J to do!) in order to find a missing lady. I think that's not such a burden!
And I thought THAT was the main point of the inquiry in the first place.
But, if one's focus is primarily to escape conviction, well then, I see your point!
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:09 AM
To Robert Joran's friend~
You say you'd lie if you were Joran's age, too? I guess you haven't heard, but Joran lied before he knew he had something to lie about. And, in case you hadn't heard, he got Deepak and Satish to tell the same lie he wasn't supposed to need at that point.
Is your friend Joran a psychic? How'd he know he'd need a lie and the Kalpoe's to tell it, before anyone said the American girl was "missing"?
Posted by: vincent | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:11 AM
Truely guilty people are not innocent! And we may may make our conclusions freely.
It seems that some think we cannot think for ourselves and express that opinion unless we apply "legal" rules of court.
Not True....
"Innocent until proved guilty" is a legal designation only. It is simply a fair consideration jurors are supposed to maintain until they hear all the evidence to deter them from "jumping to conclusions" and having that bias their further consideration of all facts during a criminal prosecution in a court of law.
However, during an investigation this would never work. An investigator MUST jump to logical conclusions to follow the evidence to get to THE TRUTH.
A truly guilty person is truly guilty the moment he commits the crime.
He is only legally "innocent until proved guilty." That's good in a court room!
We, however, as observers, can look at facts now and draw conclusions now based on those facts, and then go on to find more facts. We all do this every day in making decisions. We are not violating any rules or laws but following an unfolding investigation. We are not jurors restricted by a court and charged with making a legal determination. If we were, we would be bound by and follow those rules.
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:14 AM
Ah, AK, then where your judgement hinges is on the assumption that there was something Joran could say that would help Beth?
I'll buy that.
Now we wait and see.
Posted by: clintcarter | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:20 AM
Kat G
You make some good points!
...
"The media is NOT MAKING JORAN look guilty, he did this himself !"
"Anita, You think your kid is wonderful, but the rest of us know better !
Posted by: Kat_Gram | Aug 31, 2005 12:23:54 AM
....
Vincent
"Joran lied before he knew he had something to lie about. "
Yes -- a very interesting FACT!
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:23 AM
AK, perhaps I was lumping you with Kat Gram, who seems willing to assign some traits to a 17 yr. old kid that only the most selective evidence supports.
Posted by: clintcarter | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:24 AM
Mr. Carter
Perhaps! Thank you.
I was thinking of the reported attempts of Joran to try to "say something" to help find Natalee just before Paulus reportedly said the infamous words to "speed" the search along at the pace of a snail on salt!
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:30 AM
I can understand Anita sticking by Joran. He is after all her son. If I was Anita ( and I'm glad I'm not ) I would not desert my kid. But I wouldn't be on the tv by my own choice and blame the Holloways, the media , and whoever
" botched " the investigation.
Don't see the two security guards on the tv blaming Joran / K brothers / Steve Croes for what the three did to them, their families and their lives. Too bad the two security guards couldn't sue the three of them.
Could the H T Family sue the justice department in Aruba ? When you have the PM of a country admitting that there were mistakes in the beginning of an investigation... ?
Posted by: Kat_Gram | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:36 AM
I remember hearing that Paulus lied about the timeline. He originally stated in front of witnesses that he picked Joran up at 4am then he later changed his story to say he picked Joran up at 11pm. Both Joran & Paulus have lied.
Posted by: Chicago | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:39 AM
Chigago,
This is a very interesting FACT to me as well. And I wonder which came first?
It seems as though the 4am was true, since at that moment Paulus stated it he would have no reason to reveal that the "house rules" of Mrs. A vd S were being freely broken by J. He wouldn't even know then that Anita would find out.
But later he HAD to change it to 11 pm to get him off the hook, to cover up the violation, with the Mrs. (clearing my throat here -- if you catch my drift!)
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:47 AM
I'll never forget Anita crying and saying "dis is not the Aruba I know" as if it were a magical place for her and hers, like everything went their way. She sounded angry that someone from the VDS family was being held accountable and that wasn't playing by the rules.
She cannot be so stupid as to think Joran really left a girl at the beach and the rest is anyone's guess. She can't be so blind that she doesn't realize there's a problem when her husband floods the dining table with sweat, and her son admits to sexual assault!
What's wrong with Anita, anyway? Does Anita drink herself into oblivion or what? Joran may be her son, but she'd do better to keep her yap shut until Natalee comes back and Joran "kicks her butt". Brother!
Posted by: vincent | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:47 AM
AK, the word 'reported' makes me very itchy in this case.
Kat the boys statement was that when they dropped Nat off there was a security guard nearby. One of those guards was Already due to be picked up That day on suspicion of theft from the Holiday Inn. There was a guard on the HI videotape. I do not say they didn't lie; but to say they accused the guards of a crime is a stretch. Got any other proof? I like to be Shown otherwise.
Chicago I believe Dan himself reported that there were no viable witnesses to the rumor? that Joran said anything about 4am? Know otherwise?
Posted by: clintcarter | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:52 AM
Vincent,
You do speak of another INTERESTING and revealing statement of the infamous Sloot family in the ever shining Aruban light!
"not the Aruba I know"
It seems to suggest she has not known something about HER Aruba! as you may have exposed!!!
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:53 AM
Mr. Carter
Ha! I'll get you some cream... the word just rolled out of your own comment!
I too make judgments based on reports. I give them the weight I feel they warrant. Sometimes I have over weighed. But I try to calibrate my scales as I go!
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:59 AM
Akekoa~
Yep, looks like Anita's world is nothing like the real one. Anita's the perverbial mushroom. She's kept in the dark and fed nothing but bull****. Or, she's as big a liar as her husband and 'boy'.
Posted by: vincent | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 01:59 AM
Vincent,
I think the "dark" theory after watching her "observe" her husband during the "Greta at the table wringing the hands" interview. She seemed (to me that is) that she was pondering over his answer to the question Greta asked about how he felt about Natalee's family. He didn't really answer the question and Anita looked slightly puzzled!
Posted by: AkekoaHoAlethia | Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 02:04 AM