Judge Wants Sworn Testimony In Hollloway Disappearance

Sworn testimony from a witness who claims to have seen Joran Van der Sloot near a pond on the night of Natalee Holloway's disappearance could serve as evidence in holding Vander Sloot beyond the current September 4 release date.

A judge in Aruba is seeking sworn testimony from someone who claims he saw a suspect in the disappearance of an American teenager the night the girl vanished.

The lead investigator tells The Associated Press the man says he saw the suspect (Joran van der Sloot) with two friends near a hotel pond late that night.

The suspect has told authorities he was already at home by that time.

Comments

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

dog

You say,
"Alethia, my point is that Joran's website(as you put them) are NOT bad, "

I did not put the website this way.. IT IS this way..
Two lies right up front.. meant to deceive, to lure. The stated purpose is to meet young ladies!

THIS IS WHAT IT SAYS:

"Hey my names Joran, Im 18, Im orignally from holland but lived my whole life in Aruba. Now Im studying at St. Leo University.. "

[leeza]

I have to agree with posthoc, the law school student. When I was in nursing school I did a practical in a university that Larry King referred to "a prestigious Eastern university." I was SHOCKED, let me repeat SHOCKED, when I spent entire days working with young, bright, beautiful girls who were in for treatment of syphilis. This is where I learned the terms "hookup" and "walk of shame." It is just amazing to me to think that parents have no idea what these kids are doing.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

leeza

Thanks...
I believe you have compelted my thoughts on the crime of luring girls to use them sexually:
"This is where I learned the terms "hookup" and "walk of shame."

[shonane]

There are some people on these discussion boards who keep writing the long essays about Natalie didn't deserve this. I am baffled as to why they think they need to say this. NOBODY anywhere think Natalie or anyone else deserves to be harmed or to disappear. Even if she was wasted, taking off her clothes, or wanted to hook up with Joran and have sex, whatever, and I am not saying she did those things, but even if she did ------no one would think she would deserve to be hurt. So, the postings to say she didn't deserve it are a waste of breath. Everybody already knows that and they agree!

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

And now J needs ~ 9 lawyers at his disposal...

Just a teenaged boy????

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

"have a couple of 151 rum shots, girls!"

"Let's party!!!!!"

[birmingham dog]

shonane--if you look around on this forum, you will see that people that post aboout personal responsibility immediately get slammed for saying
"why do you think Natalee deserved it"

it has happened to me at least a dozen times, you when I now post I have to QUALIFY my post or get the wrath of this Clique.

GWD

[GeorgeT.]

Ad we Dont know if the Mtn Brook kids are NOT involved, we dont know anything hardly about this case. Other than there is a lynch mob mentality dominating most forums around this case. I look forward to logical/reason based discussions, not repeated over and over agin lynch anyone involved.

GWD

Posted by: birmingham dog | August 5, 2005 09:31 PM

The point I think is strange that the record is stuck playing over and over, is that "Joran was the last person to see Natalee." This is probably not a true statement, but everyone accepts it as true and keeps repeating it as if it were true. WE do not KNOW who the last person to see Natalee is as WE do not know where she is. Meaning if she is still alive, someone right NOW is seeing her and we have no clue who that person is.

[GeorgeT.]

PS But that person is NOT Joran.

[shonane]

BirminghamDog - Am not reposting all of your comments, but I agree with everything you have said in posts above.
===========================
I watched an interview with Greta and Beth tonight about the information that Joran was on the make at CC to pick up a girl, and that he had tried to put moves on another girl that she talked to. So. He didn't try to hurt that girl or do anything bad to her, did he?

He is apparently successful with females and seems to be fairly cocky about it (probably the envy of many other teen guys), but to try and classify this as a predator in some criminal sense is ridiculous. That doesn't mean that he has any intent to hurt them.

I also see nothing unusual about the fact that he likes to meet and hook up with attractive tourists as the island population is not that big and I imagine that it is pretty exciting to meet teens who come there as tourist. If I lived on an island like that, I think I would enjoy getting to know people who visit also.

Teenage boys (mine is 23 now and I know a lot of them as well as teen girls) spend enormous amount of time and energy trying to hook up with and sometimes to maintain a relationships with pretty teen girls. That is normal behavior. They all would like to be perceived as a stud, even though lots of them are not. Teen girls think likewise about finding guys to hook up with. These are normal behaviors.

[!]

There is a lot more to this story than we could probably ever imagine. But...then again, we have all speculated on this so with all our theories I know someone is close in their theory, I'll bet ya. But...the way things or going It just does not seem the real and total truth will ever be known.

[GeorgeT.]

the real and total truth will ever be known.

Posted by: ! | August 5, 2005 10:29 PM

I think the truth in this case is alot like the story of the three blind men standing beside an elephant. Each man describes the elephant as he touches it: one man touches the nose and says it is long like a fat snake, one touches the tail and says it is a small animal that is thin, the third man touches the side of the elephant and says it is tall and leathery.
True all depends on where you are standing.

[andy]

They did not have to murder her - regardless of what they did to her.

[andy]

There's a difference between fun and murder.

[andy]

Fun is fun. Murder is murder. There are no in betweens.

[andy]

With all these posts from Joran supporters - is there something in Aruba that permits a person to be murdered?

[andy]

There's a individual(s) on Aruba that murders people and has not been caught, that's scary.

[andy]

After 8+ weeks if they find a skull or bone that will be it, the body is already decomposed and broken down.

[andy]

And where the notorious van der Straten, Paulus best friend Polis Chief friend for 15 yrs? If you read the story the 2nd week, the Polis Chief is friend with the Prime Minster. They are all in bed together.

[GeorgeT.]

Murder is not necessarily fun. It is alot of hard work and alot of stress. One does not engage in it necessarily for fun. It is a desperate measure that often has been done without even thinking, just acting. The work involved is enoumous.

So why does everyone conclude that a person who is fun is a murderer? Because they do not know what to do with their thoughts of the unknown. It is easier to believe a falsely accused person had committed a murder than to try to consider what else could have happened to Natalee.
This discussion is about Natalee. Where are the alternative possibilities of what could have happened to her?
Try to think of five alternatives. I challenge each of you...

[Kelly3]

I would just like to understand how Natalee ended up alone without her group of friends on that terrible night. That short brunette friend that was on Greta's interview tonight is in every pic with Natalee and her friends. This group of girls do everything together. It is truly puzzling or someone is not fessing up to why Natalee separated from her pack of friends and left alone for Joran or Deepak.

[kescah]

There area various possibilities. But we have to wonder what possibilities are there that could cause a knowledgeable lawyer/judge to advise his son and friends to remain quiet? And the kids lawyers to back that up? And to multiply lawyers for the kid? And for the kid to make some confessions early on that he later changes? That doesn't sound like possibilities A-W to me, and leaves us with possibilities X, Y, or Z.

[shonane]

So why does everyone conclude that a person who is fun is a murderer? Because they do not know what to do with their thoughts of the unknown. It is easier to believe a falsely accused person had committed a murder than to try to consider what else could have happened to Natalee.
This discussion is about Natalee. Where are the alternative possibilities of what could have happened to her?
Try to think of five alternatives. I challenge each of you...

Posted by: GeorgeT
==========================================
I don't assume that Joran or the brothers drugged, raped or murdered her like some others do. Maybe it is true that he left her asleep on the beach. Maybe some of the story versions or variations he told weren't even his by origin, but were said under heavy interrogation when the PI might say did you do this,or demand him to confirm something they said. Or maybe they asked him to speculate about what happened after he left Natalie.

Joran would have cracked by now if he had harmed her. I am not sure he knows what happened to her. Maybe nobody drugged, raped or murdered her on the island. I think she is not on Aruba. That is what many of the people that live on Aruba think also.

Maybe that is why the Aruba investion does not want to spend time searching the land fill after having checked it out (when the body would have been easy to find on top of a pile) when this landfill witness first came forward.

It was different with the pond if they were looking for evidence in the pond and thought they may have been around that area. That would have made the pond search worthwile. Meanwhile, I heard on one interview that Aruba has spent a small fortune,including an enormous increase in manpower, looking for her and investigating already - sounded like it has more than blown their annual budget for this. Maybe they don't want to put the resources in searching the landfill because they don't believe she is even on the island.

[alert]

I agree with this blogger..a 2 minute curiosity peek, maybe..and this was the hangout of the Mt.Brook elite students and adults?
Intellect was left in Alabama I guess, or was it?
The current effort to create a St Natalee is a bit over the top!

From Blog august 5 RiehlViewWorld
"Not one "nice, sweet, innocent" person of any age goes into Carlos & Charlie's on Aruba, hangs out there for hours, and stays until "closing time" with the "booty dances" and "body shots" for free booze, the "simulated sex" and other shenanigans onstage, the "dirty dancing" between patrons, drugs readily available inside and on the sidewalk outside, and all of the other decadent behavior without taking part in the "fun" activities. There's no other reason for anyone to be there. And every one of Carlos & Charlie's patrons drinks alcoholic beverages

[shonane]

I would just like to understand how Natalee ended up alone without her group of friends on that terrible night. That short brunette friend that was on Greta's interview tonight is in every pic with Natalee and her friends. This group of girls do everything together. It is truly puzzling or someone is not fessing up to why Natalee separated from her pack of friends and left alone for Joran or Deepak.

Posted by: Kelly3
===================================
I think she left with Joran because she was attracted to him and wanted to be with him. I also think that at least one of her friend knows this and probably was told this when they were leaving C&Cs,

But, in the mind of an 18 yr old girls, she may not want to tell this out of concern that some may judge Natalie or because the Twitty's would not receive this information favorably.This latter statement is further confirmed by the reactions of some of the posters who just go into fits if anyone suggests that Natalie left willingly with him. They view this as a pickup and put negative judgments on that action which is totally unnecessary as it isn't a derogatory statement about her at all if she did this. Young single people hook up. It happens often. They meet someone of the opposite sex that they are attracted to and they want to spend time with them, alone.

Natalie was not forced to go with Joran and if she had not wanted to leave with him she could easily have created a distraction. Nothing else is logical.

[shonane]

we have to wonder what possibilities are there that could cause a knowledgeable lawyer/judge to advise his son and friends to remain quiet?.

Posted by: kescah | A
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's what most attornies would do when someone is accused.

[Kelly3]

I agree shonane. But her friends need to tell the truth cause Beth is thinking that Natalee got into a cab. Beth has said lets go back to the beginning of this terrible night. It starts with what her friends know or don't know. One of them if not all of them need to step up for Natalee.

[post hoc, ergo propter hoc]

we have to wonder what possibilities are there that could cause a knowledgeable lawyer/judge to advise his son and friends to remain quiet?.

Posted by: kescah | A
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's what most attornies would do when someone is accused.

Posted by: shonane | August 5, 2005 11:30 PM

---------------------------------------------

To be quiet is the absolute first thing an attorney tells an accused, no matter what the circumstances. An attorney who doesn't do that for his client will probably be disciplined.

[kescah]

"That's what most attornies would do when someone is accused."

If the lawyer's son was the last known person to be with the missing girl, and the lawyer had his own reputation and career to think about, as well as his son's future, I would think that he would take the son aside, ask what happened, advise his son to speak only to him about it, and then go out with the family of the girl and search and look at every possible scenario. Especially with his good friend being the chief of polis, he would also enlist the help of the LE despite the fact that the 48 hours was not yet up. He'd say, "Look, my son is implicated in a bad situation and we really need to get this cleared up fast. Anything you can do off duty?" A good friend would realize that this called for immediate action and would probably round up several of his buddies on the force and they would pursue it intensively. They would recognize the seriousness of the situation, have and show the utmost concern, and possibly find evidence that could have gone missing if time were to pass! Yet, it seems that the opposite happened. And Joran's reaction, if innocent? He should have been shocked and horrified that she was missing, concerned that he was in this position, would have likely proclaimed his innocence, pleading the girl's family to believe him, and would have wanted to do whatever he could to help find out what became of her- if nothing else, to clear his own name. Even if he was so distressed that he couldn't even talk, one of his two friends in the same situation would have done those things. But he could talk, and he did. He was rude and arrogant and did not seemed surprised and horrified that she was missing. I'm not saying that Joran killed her, but it doesn't look as if he knew nothing and was shocked that she was missing.

[Coolbeans]

That is true Post Hoc. Right along with "Under no circumstances do you allow them on your property without a warrent"

If this kid talks, then his attorney did not do his job. It is clear they have nothing on this kid. Which of course completly sucks.

Coolbeans

[AmazonBuzzy]

Did anyone ever check Natalee's computer???
Were're goning down a track with blinders on. Could anyone have been stalking her??? It's not unheard of.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil..........SHOCK THE MONKEY!

[nursemind]

Birminghamdog........I like your posts and I agree with your common sense. Don't let those with their heads in the sand get you down. Beth wants us all to see Natalee as the perfect girl. She probably wasn't. And yes, it's really sad if she died from poor choices. But everyone wants to hang Joran when there's absolutely no evidence of a crime yet. Where's the outrage at how everyone is talking about him? His supposed teenage ways are reported like they're the gospel truth but we can't say one negative thing about Natalee.

[Indy500Fan]

Hello from another racefan....

Not all of us were party animals in our teens. I'm a child of the 80s (HS class of '84,) and I never had more than a sip of booze before I reached 21. To this day, I never touch the stuff and much prefer a good cola or water. I just don't understand the fun in getting drunk, stoned, or whatever. Give me a fast car and a long stretch of deserted highway, and I'll get a high no drug could ever match. >:)

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

kescah | August 6, 2005 12:20 AM

What you say, of course, is exactly what most people would expect from a caring, innocent person:
"then go out with the family of the girl and search and look at every possible scenario.... Joran's reaction, if innocent? He should have been shocked and horrified that she was missing, concerned that he was in this position,"

It is strange to me that there are several posts on here that that suggest people do not expect this. It only makes me wonder about the twisted nature of their hearts. But then I read someone talk about the Gospel Truth so I checked that out in the Bible itself and found some of that! I read about it in the book of Proverbs where it says:

Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin....

The tongue of the righteous is choice silver, but the heart of the wicked is of little value. The lips of the righteous nourish many, but fools die for lack of judgment....

A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding delights in wisdom.

The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly. The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good. The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

"The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly....

And I recalled another thing I read about these BLOGS: "A troll deliberately exploits weaknesses of human nature to upset people ... A posting designed to attract predictable responses."

http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

So if I were to just speculate I could come up with almost anything as we have seen. But when I look at what IS KNOWN, a few FACTS stand out to me as prominent and irrefutable.

A girl in missing under unusual and suspicious circumstances. She should be in Alabama but her existence or location cannot be determined.

Three guys have consistently admitted to being the last ones to have seen her alive even though their specific stories have changed often and radically, they do agree on this!

An Aruban prosecutor has presented enough credible evidence to Aruban and Dutch judges several times to convince them that Joran V/d Sloot is most likely responsible for Natalee's kidnapping and possibly death, so that he continues to be held in prison and may soon be actually charged with, tried for, and convicted of the crime.

On that we do not speculate or show bias. But we simply read it in Aruban newspapers!

[angelaberdine]

Did none of you go to high school or college? Did none of you who went to college have many friends? Here is why I ask: I am 25, went to high school at a private catholic school, went to college at the 2nd biggest university in the country, which was public, and now go to a private law school. I have known many Natalee Holloways throughout my life in school--and by that I mean smart, attractive, driven, successful (academic and otherwise), and social girls from wealthy families. They are a dime a dozen where I went to high school (at least the all girls school), and I've met plenty elsewhere. For some reason, neither the media nor these girls parents have any idea what their private life is like. Some of them are innocent, and some are girls who want to have fun. I've known girls just like Natalee who end up being huge drug addicts, alcoholics, promiscuous, and rowdy. They will hang out at seedy bars, drug parties, regular parties, and the like until the sun comes up, engaging in everything from cocaine to casual sex.

Now before I get yelled at, I'd like the quick-lipped to reread the above and notice that I have NOT said that Natalee was like these other women in the sense of doing these "bad" things. My point is that you shouldn't bring up her background and her adademic achievments as a reason she would not be a "bad" girl. Girls like Natalee are assumed pure and innocent; my point is that they very often are not, and this is just a generalization--no different than one who says someone of a certain race will act a certain way.

Posted by: post hoc, ergo propter hoc | August 5, 2005 08:29 PM

So your "friends" are "dime a dozen." Then I say you have no friends and no one would want you for a friend who calls a human being a "dime-a-dozen" person. Ergo, no Ivy Leaguer.

[lurkersurfaces]

shonane--if you look around on this forum, you will see that people that post aboout personal responsibility immediately get slammed for saying
"why do you think Natalee deserved it"

it has happened to me at least a dozen times, you when I now post I have to QUALIFY my post or get the wrath of this Clique.

GWD

Posted by: birmingham dog | August 5, 2005 10:05 PM

Why is it when some of us discuss this case we get labled as

"she asked for it"...Not me and no one I know of on here feels that Natalee ASKED for it. You are showing that you reasonability is lacking. Sit in your house and think that you KNOW everything and that EVRYONE should think liek you do. But Hey there is a Whole 'nother world out there and those people you see wlkaing by usually Dont think like you do.

GWD

Posted by: birmingham dog | August 5, 2005 09:34 PM

What you say abut Joran could be said about at least 75% of the teenage boys in the USA.

GWD

Posted by: birmingham dog | August 5, 2005 07:26 PM

I don't appreciate being led to believe that their daughter was not an average teenager. Joran is also an average teenager, and lots of you want to paint him as some sort of predator, come on if that was the case then 99% of the teenage boys back here in the USA are also predators.
There is more to this case that many of want to realize.
Why may I ask you is it so bad to speak of the truth? Why must you demonize anyone that seeks the truth in a respectful manner? Can we not make generalizations about young pretty girls that go to bars when they shpouoldn't and Not be speaking of responsibility? Some young pretty girls NEED to learn from this tragedy. The people that are so quick to judge us that seek the truth, and want to discuss the "whys" of this case are in-fact hurting these future teens that think it is OK to do irresponsibe behavior. Consequences, look it up in the dictionary. RESULT/OUTCOME...this is what we are speaking of on this forum. The consequence of a tragic mistake and lapse in judgement. Yes we can conjecture as to WHO and WHAT happened, but also in my humble opinion the MORE IMPORTANT discussion should be of th Consequence of your actions. We can't do anything about the past, but Maybe just Maybe we can affect the future....

GWD

Posted by: birmingham dog | August 5, 2005 08:50 PM

bdog:
I think the answer to your confusion about being 'bashed' is given in the two sets of comments you made which I have posted here. If your problem is with the portrayal of Natalee as having been a teenager who did not partake in any behavior whatsoever which may have been construde by some as 'questionable' then I can understand your wishing that she simply be portrayed as an what most would most likely consider to be an average teenager (some partying, some dancing, some not so 'smart' choices - which by the way is most certainly NOT limited to teenagers!) versus the completely squeaky clean image Beth may possibly wish to portray and remember of her child which now most probably is dead.

On the other hand, the last comment of yours which I posted above has brought me out of the lurker shadows. I am BEYOND sick and tired of victims, most often women, taking the blame for things that happen to them. If you want to talk about 'consequences' of behavior why dont we turn the gender tables for a moment???
YOU say "Can we not make generalizations about young pretty girls that go to bars when they shpouoldn't and Not be speaking of responsibility? Some young pretty girls NEED to learn from this tragedy."

So young pretty girls shouldnt go to bars? and THIS is not placing blame on Natalee???? as you said you were not doing in the first two copied posts. (I, and I would be willing to bet others, would interpret your defending yourself as not saying she 'deserved' it or 'asked for it' to mean the same as not placing blame on her.)
What about the consequences of Joran's actions and the actions of the 75% -99% of teenage boys that you speak of? or are boys excluded from the whole consequence thing because they are boys???what about the consequences THEY face in putting THEMSELVES in those SAME situations these females 'put themselves in'. What about the lessons that young goodlooking BOYS NEED to learn??? Talking about CONSEQUENCES, and RESULT/OUTCOME -If those boys are going to be out in those situations then they will have to accept the possible consquences of those actions as well....like being held for suspicion of kidnapping/murder. THE DOUBLE STANDARD MUST DIE!

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

I am not surprised that there may be "good girls gone bad!" So what?

I have two daughters. They were both "good" girls as we have seen Natalee described. One of my daughters did some of what was described above as the "bad" behavior, the other remained "good" and tried to convert the "bad" one to no avail!

I myself as a young man was "good," a boy scout leader and president of a HS club. I even entered into the school elections for class president (BUT LOST! to a girl was voted more capable than I - and she was!).

Then I became "bad" with the drinking and ... well, I don't want to mention more here... but not good!

Then God changed me so now I'm NEW.

BUT............????
WHAT does that have to do with a kidnapping and possibly rape or murder? And the suspected perpetrator with high suspicion held against him by his own country's justice department???

NOTHING..... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

NOTHING!

one was

[lurkersurfaces]

thank you Akekoa for putting 'good' and 'bad' in quotations. Seems women in particular are always labeled as 'good' or 'bad' while 'boys will be boys'. We should all be held to the same standard. Natalee, like millions of people everyday, was out in a bar probably drinking and dancing. Risky? possibly. Doesnt mean her death was a result of those particular behaviors. People are raped and murdered in parking lots and parks and their own homes. As you said, none of that has anything to do with what SOMEONE most likely did TO
her.

[Treehugger]

Don't Believe The Lies !

Why do the Twitty's refuse to allow the kids in Mtn. Brook to be questioned ? And why when the few that do agree to appear all look at each other prepared to lie when questioned about drinking ?
No one has heard stated by any reliable source related to the prosecution that Joran and the Kalpoe's stories have changed since June 10th. The one who are saying they have changed are the media, the Twitty's and the Mansur's. It's not the truth, if it were the truth, then according to Dutch law, none of it would be worth diddlysquat anyway, simply because it was leaked to the media.
NO details have been released to the public concerning this case by the Aruban government, because to do so would diqualify any testimony or evidence.
Jug and Jossy know each other, went to the same school. What are they covering up ? What is Jossy really in this for ?
Joran's behavior ?
According to Charles Croes, the cellphone guy, who first met the Twitty's, and "found" Joran Van Der Sloot, Joran had a "desire to help".
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161233,00.html
ANYONE in their right mind would have shut up after the shameful, slanderous display the Twitty's then began. Every word the Van Der Sloot's have said has been twisted and advertised by Fox and the Twitty's as "chilling" or "dramatic" or "incriminating".
Why would his father or any lawyer tell him to shut up ? The ridiculousness of even WONDERING why you would be quiet when Fox, CNN, and all the rest are camped on your front lawn, while henchmen are at your kid's school harrassing students with signs and taunts, while Tim "I'm sure this time" Miller and Geraldo's brother yell things through the gate in your yard with cameras, machinery, and all the rest. OH ! and there goes Greta chasing a car down the street...sorta like Jossy chasing the white van "sure" she was in there ! And Beth on Geraldo's boat pleading poor accepting donations, while her ex-husband digs hopelessly at the dump...FOR SHAME !
There is MUCH more to this story than meets the eye...and it doesn't have anything to do with a horny 17 year old kid, who has sat in jail for two months, and not "cracked".
Predatory...pffffpt ! If buying girls shots in bars is predatory then 90% of the male population in America are a bunch of stalkers.
Two "witnesses" have come forward, since the reward was upped, and one was so unreliable that he skipped town, after a drainage pond was emptied. A landfill is being torn apart based on the "eyewitness account" of someone even GRETA says she doesn't believe. (broad daylight-the day the world and that dump were put on alert-highly unlikely) Voice recordings, methane readers, crazy old men who dig up and kill sea turtle eggs...ENOUGH !
Why does a speech therapist continuously say "um...you know...well..." why would she contstantly mispronounce Joran's name. "Urine" ? Are you 8, Beth ? Nannie Nannie Boo Boo.
Get a clue, people ! You are being had by a gossip columnist and a bunch of very questionable "businessmen".

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

lurkersurfaces

Thanks,

You make TWO very good points:

--> That people every day do "bad" risky things but that never warrants a crime against them. (what twisted logic some have???)

--> People are raped and murdered in parking lots and parks and their own homes EVEN THOUGH THEY never did ANYTHING "BAD!"

So being "GOOD" or "BAD" has NOTHING to do with a rape or murder committed against that person. It has to do ONLY with the morals, character and ACTIONS of the CRIMINAL ACTOR!

Thank you...

[nursemind]

AkekoaHoAlethia.....how can you talk about someone elses twisted nature of heart when all I was pointing out is that until the truth comes out we should not be condemning an innocent, until proven otherwise, person....Joran. You along with many others seem to have condemmed him in your heart already. Just because it seems that way, doesn't make it the truth. I too am a Christian and remember what the Bible says "Let no man deceive himself, if any thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become foolish that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God." Only God knows the truth about Joran and Natalee.

[post hoc]

So your "friends" are "dime a dozen." Then I say you have no friends and no one would want you for a friend who calls a human being a "dime-a-dozen" person. Ergo, no Ivy Leaguer.

Posted by: angelaberdine | August 6, 2005 01:22 AM

angelaberdine,

yes, i think there are loads of worthless (hence, dime a dozen) people out there, and some of them are my friends. i have a best friend/ex roommate who drank away his life, money, and friends. i always tried to help him, but i let him know i thought he was worthless. he's not an alcoholic, he just didn't care about anything or anyone. he's better now. there are so many out there like he was. i think these people are plentiful and worthless.

that doesn't mean they can't change, or that i will not try to help them. sometimes a person needs to be told he's dime a dozen in order to motivate him to change. sorry if you don't agree.

[nursemind]

Treehugger....you go girl! We have to remember that all we know is what we've heard from the MEDIA. Because Dutch law does not allow the information to be released, all the talk about Joran changing stories and on and on is just that....talk, with no basis. Let's cool it until the truth comes out. The Twitty's are hurting and say things that they believe but have no real facts on. My better half is part of the MEDIA so I know how they work and influence people with the slant they want.

[NC greenbean]

Oh, what a Hot time we are havin' in TROLL TOWN tonight!!! Wonder why certain posters are only here on certain nights of the week? By the way, bdog,et al-how's the weather in Aruba tonight? You all need to get a life!!!

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

nursemind

I did not address you with anything specificly.
However I will respond to something you adressed to me:
"Innocent until proven guilty"

This is a legal designation only. It is a consideration jurors are supposed to maintain until they hear all the evidence. Then they vote on what they believe is legal "guilt." As a jury foreman I did this once. As to REAL guilt they may be right. They may be wrong. You are correct: ONLY GOD MAY KNOW.

However, a truly guilty person is guilty the moment he commits the crime. He is only legally "innocent until proven guilty." We, as observers, can look at facts now and draw a conclusion now based on those facts and then go on to find more facts. We all do that every day in making decisions. We are not violating any rules or laws, but following an unfolding investigation in hope of finding a missing girl using current facts! We are not waiting for a court to make a legal determination.

We want Natalee now!! For that, we may follow up on any leads. If they point to guilt now so be it. What a court may legally determine later has no bearing on true guilt or saving a girl's life now.

Your statements and Bible quotes have no bearing on what I wrote. A section that does apply, I believe, in the matter you suggest, is this:

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" I COR 6

You hav also misstated what I wrote: "you...seem to have condemmed him"

What i said was:
"An Aruban prosecutor has presented enough credible evidence to Aruban and Dutch judges several times to convince them that Joran V/d Sloot is most likely responsible for Natalee's kidnapping and possibly death, so that he continues to be held in prison and may soon be actually charged with, tried for, and convicted of the crime.

On that we do not speculate or show bias. But we simply read it in Aruban newspapers!"

[nursemind]

AkekoaHoAlethia......remember you can't believe everything you read in newspapers. My better half is part of the media and the media from newspapers to radio to televison are bias all the time. They try not to show it and they deney it but they are human and some bias always comes out.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Nursemind,

You mean I can't believe Joran is in prison?
Where do you think he is?

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Nursemind,

You said,
"I too am a Christian and remember what the Bible says "Let no man deceive himself, if any thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become foolish that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God."

That is an interesting statement but it, like all of what is said, must be understood in it's context. The context is referring to resurrection. Men think this is "foolish" but, it is the WISDOM of GOD.

I Corinthians 3-4

3:10
"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him ; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"{[19] Job 5:13}; 20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." {[20] Psalm 94:11}

21 So then, no more boasting about men!...

4:3 ... I [Apostle Paul] care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."
....

But here and now a judge on earth can only do what a judge on earth can do -- make earthly judgements. Aruban judges have don THIS!

Men can only look on the outward appearing evidence.. but God can and does, in fact, look at ALL there is. He knows all and sees all. He judges our actions and the thoughts and intents of our hearts. God does not show favoritism.

God give ARUBAN JUDGES the charge, the authority and responsibility to consider evidence and make and judgements and carry out the appropriate prescribed punishment:
---
"He who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience." (Romans 13)

[Treehugger]

AkekoaHoAlethia-
You have got to be kidding.
What is your point ?

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

The point is that God gave ARUBAN judges the authority to look at evidence and make a judgement which we all know they did -- because they have put joran in prison and kept him there based on their belief that he is likely guilty of kidnapping and / or murder.

I am trusting their opinion on this point! This is not a bias. Nor is is in any way detracting ARUBANS, but rather applauding their judgement at this point.