Differing Opinions

The news today is about Greta's ratings ... some are more kind than others. I know of one news guy who couldn't believe the London bombings didn't close the story down.

I thought that would be the case, too, actually.

I just flew in from Cinncinati - and boy are my arms tired. Okay, it's supposed to be Cleveland - and this guy isn't laughing.

A Clemson QB seems to have known Natalee Holloway fairly well.

At Mountain Brook High, Holloway was one year behind Reese, who is entering his redshirt freshman season at Clemson. They had similar groups of friends, and Reese said he often saw Holloway on the weekends.

“I’ve heard reports on the news of how she was like dumb and just partied all the time, but she did nothing like that,” Reese said. “She went out and had a good time, just like anybody else, and she was just the nicest girl ever. It’s just unfortunate she got caught in that situation.”

Scott Gray is a teen who lives near Mountain Brook. He thinks Congress should act ... to regulate teen trips.

Note to Congress / and Scott: The global war on terror is less complex than regulating teenagers ...

Enjoy the day, I'm off to work.

Comments

[leel]

well, wouldn't it be nice if we had rational parents instea of having to regulate teenagers?

known its improper to say so, but I still think its outrageous to send fresh face HS grads off on their own when you know what's on Aruba...lots of drinking,drugs, gambling , prostitution ...

I mean, what exactly do these well-to-do Christian parents their kids are going to do down there?.....dig for clams?

geesh...

I'll tell you what would really put a halt to it.....a massive lawsuit against the company that ran the excursion....

[PRNDL23]

Regulating teen trips (and behavior in general): Isn't that what PARENTS are for?

Note to those (liberals) who may object: Yes, I am a parent; Yes, I have teens; and NO, it is not that hard to do.

[ev]

I am sure school will now monitor these trips and perhaps eliminate them all together. I know my daughter will not be going to Aruba or any other island for that matter unsupervised. 18 year olds are exactly that looking to have a good time. I am sure this young beautiful girl did not know that these predators were going to do this to her. After all they were all having fun. Schools need to stop encouraging this as well as parents.

[Anna]

I tend to think maybe whomever caused her to disappear might need to stop doing that sort of thing as well. And the travel agency might should stop saying it is safer than at home, etc. It's not as though the entire group disappeared or they had not made this same trip five times previously with no unfortunate incidences. A reasonable expectation of safety is usually present in resort areas. Not any more.

Yes, we have all learned a painful lesson but ultimately the blame lies with whomever did this. It could and does happen in shopping malls, parks and even to people home sleeping in their own beds.

[PRNDL23]

I doubt that the school systems will intervene and monitor these trips, especially now. There is no viable educational purpose for a celebratory trip to Aruba. I'm sure most will avoid this whole subject like the plague. If the MBBoE had endorsed this trip, then they would be liable. I can't imagine the AEA (or another state's education system) ever wanting that responsibility. Alabama schools cannot handle it fiscally.

[cj]

The fact here is the company who offers these trips doesn't put a gun to these kids heads to sign on the dotted line to go on a trip. It is a service that is provided and it is up to the parties involved whether the student goes or not. Evidently there is a market for such a business and you can't sue a business for offering a service, and one that is so clearly outlined in their paperwork as to what part they play in these trips.

According to what I have read about these companies,it is clearly outlined that the chaparones are not there to babysit. They are basically available for information purposes, any legal problems that may crop up(i.e. imprisonment), ect.

The real issue is not whether Natalee should have been permitted to go, but that there was a crime committed against her. Those committing the crime are at fault here, not Natalee, or her parents.

We need to remember that Natalee is 18, an adult. I don't know who funded this trip, whether she paid for it out of her own pocket or if her parents helped with it. Being 18, she could have gone whether her parents had given permission or not, depending on who paid for it. Personally, I would not give my daughter my blessing for going on such a trip and I would hope she would honor that. For me, it is not a sound decision to allow my daughter to leave the country, knowing ther is not going to be some sort of supervision. I trust her, I do not trust those around her to keep her safe.

I am sure BHT is doing enough self blaming and alot of what-ifs without a bunch of faceless people on the net doing it for her. We are not perfect people, we can only do what is best and then hope for the best.

[PRNDL23]

Anna,
You are exactly right. People just don't seem to grasp the concept that the world is a dangerous place. I live in a small "Mayberry" town in Alabama, and I witnessed a pedophile attempt to pick up two 10-11 year old girls at our local pool this weekend. Of course, those of us who saw what was happening intervened & stopped him, and he fled the scene. Those little girls were at a public pool alone. Their parents had dropped them off there for the afternoon, assuming they would be safe, since our town has a low crime rate and everyone knows everyone. WRONG!! That man was from another county. Apparently, some people never watch the news. Those little girls never knew that creep was watching them. He could have easily watched them leave, followed them home, and stalked them, much like that Duncan man did in Idaho. Children should not be left unattended anywhere, at any time, period. Of course, NH was 18, and that is somewhat different. Still, her ordeal should be an example of the evil that lurks in the world. No one is immune. Parents need to make their children a PRIORITY again.

I'm off of my soapbox now. My own children are up and ready to enjoy their last days of Summer vacation.

[cj]

Did the school have anything to do with the trips? How is this trip presented to the students initially? Are they sent letters or does the company go to the school and present the trip to them?

I graduated in 1982. We never had things like this come up where I live. The big trip for our class was a day in Chicago going to museums. Times have changed.........

[scubajap]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3295440
"The Bird Road Rapist"
An intersting story, you might want to read what can happen when an innocent person is wrongly convicted. Over 20 years of his life gone, never to be reclaimed. Again, I'm not saying Joran is innocent or guilty, but we should have at least some shred of concrete evidence before they put him away.
On the same note, it is highly unlikely that OJ would have walked if tried in the Dutch System.

[TheAlamo]

Scott Gray is a teen who lives near Mountain Brook. He thinks Congress should act ... to regulate teen trips.

Uh, Scott....this is known as communism. Congress to REGULATE the actions of a free society? You need some serious education in freedom and responsibility.

One girl either makes some bad judgements, or is tricked into something and you want to get congress involved? Life is what it is. We all make CHOICES and have to live (and sometimes die) by the consequences of those choices. You cannot REGULATE every action of human beings with the excuse that "we're here to protect you." Look at the Russians and Chinese. They are heavily regulated. Did that cure death? Did that cure accidents? did that cure murder? Get over your slave mentality and accept the fact that people will sooner or later die. When it is your time--it is your time and all the communistic regulations "ain't gonna change it!" For those who can see, think and remember, this country was much better off BEFORE government started regulating life unto death (and causing some themselves--ever hear of Waco?) I strongly suggest you do some research on Thomas Jefferson or Frederic Bastiat, and learn about freedom. It is a much better way, and decidedly more efficient than slavery.

[finch]

IMO, after painfully watching this family be at the mercy of Aruba's gov. and their mystifying handling of this case, US parents and schools might want to make the decision to send highschool students somewhere in the USA for a while. I know this case is changing my opinion about sending my children out of the country.

[leeza]

I have to say this Scott Gray certainly parrots his family's opinions admirably. I just have to ask, whatever happened to real Reagan conservatism? (I remember it, I was there!) Scott, remember "Government is not the answer." Why is it that many conservatives now believe that the government should intervene whenever things go wrong for one individual? Thank goodness we don't have the right to regulate if someone thinks his daughter married the wrong guy or if someone thinks affluent parents are too permissive. I am becoming increasingly annoyed by the weird quasi-"It takes a village" brand of conservative who thinks government needs to intervene on adult decisions that DO NOT involve others.

[Blarney]

This is "definitively" a rich people thang.

Only the welltodoers send their kids on fancy spring junkets. We who struggle to pay car insurance have no such concerns. We are eating Ramen noodles at the end of the month, never mind if it will be Aruba or Cancun, or or.

But now this is an international dilemma? We have men perishing in Iraq every week, young men who had bright futures too. Babies daddies. Sons. They didn't leave to party, nuff said.

Beth Twitty has announced she wants Holland's involvement, Columbia, Venezuela, and more US help. Columbia is trying to free itself from the drug trade's chokehold, and Venezuela is suffering under a despot. But none of that matters anymore. IN fact, nothing matters. Not your boys in Iraq, not your kids. nothing.

Because Natalee Holloway is missing.

[minnesota dad]

People keep missing the fact and the reason why it is important for Greta and Foxnews to keep the pressure on Aruba.

This was clearly intended to be a cover-up by the Aruban authorities. They never expected the mom to come on strong and for the media to hang around.

It would just quietly go away. Aruban authorities would quietly say the Van Der Sloots...it's better if you head back to the homeland. The Sloot's leave and there are no answers as to the disappearance.

I repeat, this was an attempted cover-up. The media pressure is killing the Aruban government and the crime they attempted to cover.

Only after the media spotlights became intense did you see them making comments like "no one is above the law"..."we will have something soon".

Please Fox....and Greta...for the sake of continuing to expose the corruption on this "tourist haven" keep exposing this right up to the September 4 deadline. If you take any heat off, they will quickly let the punks go and state the "case is cold". Cover-up complete.

On September 4, I will crank up the presses with "Boycott Aruba" bumperstickers which I will give away free to those who ask....if the Aruban government doesn't do the right thing.

Peace to all.......

[sorryminndad]

Not everybody wants to keep seeing Beth on Fox.

Cuz believe it or not, some of us are worried about a few other things on planet earth.

[wecomeseekingtruthandjustice]

About these trips. Several years ago my #2 son went to Cozumel on a high school graduation trip. We wanted to reward him, but....

Those who planned the trip were not associated with the school, as they like to keep that out of the liability arena, apparently. They also did not want any parents involved in its presentation, discussion, and implementation. Instead empowering a group of teens to make decisions about inconsequential matters, while the travel agent or representative makes the buck on the package. I can only assume now, based on what I have learned, they keep the wraps on it because they tell the kids they can do all those things we try to prevent them from doing at home.

The travel agencies darn well know what they are peddling, and it stinks. Great source of revenue, eh? The kids think it is cool to put one over on the folks, etc. Why else only talk to the students, why all the liability releases?

This is like the legal term, "attractive nuisance," like a pool w/o a fence. No one expects someone to drown, but w/o a fence, they sometimes do.

If I had championed this vulgar "trip" to the MB kids, I'd be lawyering up.

[PS:]

I'd boycott Aruba if I could.

Unfortunately, I can't help in this round because I spent my last dime helping a relative who is a victim of domestic violence buy a car seat for her baby. She is bouncing from my house to another trying to survive one day at a time.

But damn, I'll be sure to tell her that she better damn well boycott Aruba. What the heck is she thinking and where are her priorities??

[michigan mom]

As a parent, it is difficult to "fight city hall" when a trip like this is offered. Many times a trip like this is set up by a group of parents who have no problem with their child traveling to a destination with alchohol and gambling available. Their kids may have been exposed to it more and taught how to handle it. Or maybe the thought of danger just doesn't cross the parent's mind.They have a comfort level with it.
Then when the trip is announced, there is some anxiety among parents who haven't had this kind of exposure with their own children. They feel "well, I don't want to hurt my child by limiting their experiences", and also it is socially difficult for the kid when you say no.
So often, a parent says yes but isn't real comfortable with it. Often also, when it's a school trip with chaperones you feel it's a safe trip. That isn't always the case. But many parents aren't aware of that. So there is a sense of security that you can send your child on a trip, they'll be safe and have fun with their friends. Usually it is safe. That's part of the interest in this tragedy, I think, that it shattered a sense of security. A school trip... a child lost. That doesn't happen.
I said no to some trips and it was very very difficult to say no. It upset my kids and they carry that 'upset' for a long time. Before the trip when 'everyone' is talking about it. And after the trip when they all talk about what a great time it was. This is a lifetime memory for kids and unfortunately this time... it isn't a good memory.
I'm sure some parents who said 'yes' to this trip were worried. Worried the entire time and relieved when the trip was over and their child got off the plane safely.
The government can't regulate trips like this. Parents can, but it's tough. I have chaperoned some HS trips. It's very difficult. The kids are ready to 'party' and they aren't your own children. They have plans and don't want the plans interfered with. Even on a trip that I chaperoned..that had security guards outside the kids doors at night in a major city... the students found ways to do things that weren't safe. They're kids... they're fresh off the leash and sometimes they don't make the best decisions.
MM

[Figleaf]

Let us remember that most islands are Third World countries with substantially different laws and customs that we are used to in most of the United States (parts of the U.S. are akin to Third World countries). This same group of teens in Grand Cayman or in Nassau would have been noticeably out of place and their behavior would have been more subdued by circumstances and controlled by the local culture. It is not for no reason that group charters to Aruba are at the low end of the cost scale. There are no bargains in this world - only cheap things.

[leeza]

Minnesota dad - you just keep cranking out those bumper stickers because there is a backlash starting already. The BHT machine has gone over the edge with the claims of flying out investigatory documents. First, if they are originals, it could be a cime to "obtain" them. Second, if they are copies, everyone on earth knows how easy it is to alter copies. Third, this case involves a juvenile, and court records are sealed. Add to this nonsence, the "predator" claim she keeps making based on normal teenage activity. No wonder vdS family has 9 (or 15 or 500) lawyers ready to make certain that the CIVILIZED, PROCEDURAL, FORMAL, ESTABLISHED protections afforded ALL citizens are honored.
Many people have been following this case because it is summer, rerun television season. This case has a reality TV vibe, but wait for first run episodes and football season to dim the numbers.
Have you tried to book a flight to or hotel room in Aruba lately? US winter is their busy season, and you can't find availability for entire weeklong periods now. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that Aruba can survive if you and Alabama decide to vacation elsewhere. Please let me know where you plan to go because from your previous posts, you don't seem like the kind of person I'd want near my family.
I certainly agree that mistakes were made early on because the police probably thought this was just someone who partied a little too hard and ended up missing her plane. Newflash for you Minnesota Dad, that happens everywhere. MSNBC just repeated a documentary last night about US cases where the same mistake was made. That doesn't make everything that follows a conspracy.

[Figleaf]

I wanted to add another thought. Let's not forget that in three months Natalee would have been going off to a place dominated by thousands of teens with NO parental supervision and far greater opportunties to exercise bad judgment and make dreadful decisions and mistakes. The problem is not the lack of parental supervision, but those few instances when bad judgment and dreadful decisions overlap predation. I seem to remember terrible fates befalling several women at the University of Florida in Gainesville at the hands of a good looking man by the name of Ted Bundy, and they weren't even drinking or partying. We are little steel balls in a giant pinball machine and once in a while someone presses a button and we get whacked - and there is no rationale other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Susan P.]

I am completely appalled by the fact that people would want to regulate or completely ban senior class trips abroad. I find it so hypocritical that you are an "adult" at 18 years old, but that is put aside when class trips are concerned. I acknowledge the fact that not everyone is 18 on these trips, but some or most are, which means they can think and make decisions on their own. I went on a class trip to Cancun, just as thousands of other high schools across the nations did. Yes there were parties, drugs, and even alcohol. When deciding on a class trip (I was part of that committee) it was either Hawaii or Cancun, and Cancun was chosen based on the drinking age. I don’t believe that Aruba is wrong for saying that it is safe, because when compared to other countries, it probably does have the lowest statistics. (I don’t know for sure). I believe that these trips are designed to be safe, but this also assumes that the student/ chaperone(s) act responsibly. I am not sure as to what Natalee was given, but our school disbursed pamphlets to students, showing the “club scene”, describing the drinking age, what comes with the “package”, optional tours, etc. So before ANY money is collected, parents and students have knowledge of what is included. Students who are 18 years old are held just as responsible for their actions as any other adult would be. It was clear in our trip guideline, and parental consent for minors, that the school was not responsible for this trip and that all monies collected were done through an outside party. Abductions happen around the world regardless of the activity or who is watching who. They could happen at a senior trip to Disneyland, Las Vegas, or even just to the local park to celebrate.

[`]

Lawyer up and sue who?

The MJ kids for failing to take care of 18 year old Natalee? Since when do people hire sitters to watch 18 year olds?

Everyone keeps blaming the MB kids and the chaperones for failing to babysit Natalee. Did Beth normally have a sitter for Natalee? Was there a pre-agreement between Beth, the MB kids, the chaperones, exclusively for Natalee's safety and care?

[leeza]

Minnesota Dad said: On September 4, I will crank up the presses with "Boycott Aruba" bumperstickers which I will give away free to those who ask....if the Aruban government doesn't do the right thing.

Leeza says: One more thing MN, unless you are on the jury, then it is not up to you to decide what is the "right thing" by law. Actually, criminal cases in Aruba are decided by a judge, anyhow. So when you babble on about the "right thing", remember, OJ would have been convicted under the Aruba crimal code (even with a lying cop on the case).

[`]

Thank you leeza.

[Susan P.]

One thing that many people keep bringing up is that Natalee was underage drinking, PLEASE keep in mind she was not underage in Aruba.

[Paulo]

Scott Gray et al,

Please, pleeaassee, PULEEEZE! Stop this nonsense with getting the government involved in every aspect of human activity.

Does Major League Baseball or its players belong in Congressional hearings? Goodness no! As I am sure my learned colleague, leeza, would support that the Founding Fathers and those in particular who drafted the Constitution wrote it with the intent purpose of keeping the Federal government out of everything (or just about).

One more thing here, I know folks who are 60, 35, 21, and 45 years of age who will never reach adulthood. Period.

Let me share with you what bothers me: Once while visiting a friend on an US Air Force installation I was stopped by what looked like a middle school student. I hadn't done anything wrong, he just wanted to meet me.

My friend accurately pointed out, these kids--the get brand new cars to drive, a loaded pistol, and the authority to use it. Spooky! Pre Iraq.

Love and kisses,

Paulo

[SusanW]

This to-do isn't just about Natalee. It's about the obvious Aruban cover-ups and screw-ups. It's about Americans (and other tourists) being safe in foreign countries. It's about MY son and daughter, and YOUR sons and daughters.

I say to the media...run this thing into the ground until it's over. And when it's "over", keep it going even stronger. I say bring Aruba to it's knees by hitting them where it hurts. Their wallets.

[Brvhrt]

My wife and I have raised 4 daughters and 1 son. I couldn't imagine sending any of the girls off to a drinking party much less a Carribean island, not because of what they might do but because of the selfish irresponsible idiots that I know live among us. Our philosophy was not to restrain them until they finally busted out of parental confinement but to teach them all along how to make wise decisions and not allow peer groups to make decisions for them. On the other hand, I wouldn't allow my son to hang out at casinos all night gambling and drinking, or listening to rap music, or viewing porn. When he came to live with myself and his step mother back in the eigth grade he was already in trouble, drinking, carousing, smoking, running with the wrong crowd. We outlined two choices for him, and the consequences, and let him make the choice of which direction he wanted his life to take. To his credit, he made the right choice. If he had not we would not have put up with his bad behavior.
My point? While I do not agree with the Twittys' decision to let NH go on this trip, the reason we have a problem here is that the VDS's have through extraordinary permissiveness raised an out of control brat that is a danger to society and is guilty of what ever it is that compells him and his coharts to lie through their teeth about their involvement with NH's death or disappearance.
So knock off the crap about Natalee's or Beth's contribution to this tragedy. While it is dangerous to drink and ride with strangers the culpability is all JVDS and Kalpoes.

[momof2]

I believe that people want to Boycott Aruba because if the "cover up" thats going on down there. No other reason! if the Aruban police would of handled this case properly there would be no "boycotts" or calling for them. Its all about the cover up.. thats all. As for the MB Kids, well... I think that Natalee's friends should of kept out a better eye. Friends dont let friends leave with strangers, in fact, they insist they dont leave! I know my friends would of not let me leave alone. I think some of the MB girls were jealous of Natalee so thats why no one REALLY interfered when she left willingly with the guys. I am one of the onex who will never visit Aruba. Thanks to LE there.

[angelaberdine]

nna,
You are exactly right. People just don't seem to grasp the concept that the world is a dangerous place. I live in a small "Mayberry" town in Alabama, and I witnessed a pedophile attempt to pick up two 10-11 year old girls at our local pool this weekend. Of course, those of us who saw what was happening intervened & stopped him, and he fled the scene. Those little girls were at a public pool alone. Their parents had dropped them off there for the afternoon, assuming they would be safe, since our town has a low crime rate and everyone knows everyone. WRONG!! That man was from another county. Apparently, some people never watch the news. Those little girls never knew that creep was watching them. He could have easily watched them leave, followed them home, and stalked them, much like that Duncan man did in Idaho. Children should not be left unattended anywhere, at any time, period. Of course, NH was 18, and that is somewhat different. Still, her ordeal should be an example of the evil that lurks in the world. No one is immune. Parents need to make their children a PRIORITY again.

I'm off of my soapbox now. My own children are up and ready to enjoy their last days of Summer vacation.

Posted by: PRNDL23 | August 8, 2005 09:52 AM

Did you report this man to the police, give a description? I sure hope so. This is horrible that one would come to a pool to get kids right in front of everybody, but they are getting brazen.

[DennisAOK]

In fairness to the Mountain Brook parents, I do not think most of them had any idea their children would be frequenting a place like Carlos & Charlies. It was not planned, but came about when the bus driver on the way in from the airport pointed it out and said it was definitely not to be missed. One of the chaperones, indirectly interviewed by Bill O'Reilly early on, when asked if he would do anything differently were he to chaperone again, said only that he would avoid C&C's - too raunchy for 18 year olds.

[`]

In fairness to the Mountain Brook parents, I do not think most of them had any idea their children would be frequenting a place like Carlos & Charlies. It was not planned, but came about when the bus driver on the way in from the airport pointed it out and said it was definitely not to be missed. One of the chaperones, indirectly interviewed by Bill O'Reilly early on, when asked if he would do anything differently were he to chaperone again, said only that he would avoid C&C's - too raunchy for 18 year olds.

Posted by: DennisAOK | August 8, 2005 02:10 PM

That's true enough. And very simple. If I ever go to Aruba I won't go to C&C's.

[`]

I believe that people want to Boycott Aruba because if the "cover up" thats going on down there. No other reason! if the Aruban police would of handled this case properly there would be no "boycotts" or calling for them. Its all about the cover up.. thats all. As for the MB Kids, well... I think that Natalee's friends should of kept out a better eye. Friends dont let friends leave with strangers, in fact, they insist they dont leave! I know my friends would of not let me leave alone. I think some of the MB girls were jealous of Natalee so thats why no one REALLY interfered when she left willingly with the guys. I am one of the onex who will never visit Aruba. Thanks to LE there.

Posted by: momof2 | August 8, 2005 01:53 PM

That's a first. You think the MB girls let Natalee go to her death because they were "jealous" of her? As if these kids needs more guilt. I'm convinced some of them are going to wind up in the psych ward while they should be happy in freshman year.

Personal responsibility? Does an 18 year old have any responsibility regarding choices? The maturity is not where it will be later, but these are not kindergartners we're talking about.

Why should everyone have been carefully watching one Natalee Holloway? Why is she more important than every other kid in the world even though she really wasn't a kid at all? Why should the MB kids have been babysitting Natalee?

[`]

And while we're on the blame game, Beth Twitty is going to get herself sued and kicked off the island. How long is the country of Aruba going to let her broadcast to the world about their supposed "corruption," and "coverups," even while they are giving her everything for free?

Would we allow some foreigner to come here and blame and blast us after their kid had a wild holiday and turned out missing? Would we allow same foreigner to set up news conferences and beam to the world and outer space that the US was "corrupt?" Would we give them a free stay?

Honest answers only please.

[DennisAOK]

I have to say this Scott Gray certainly parrots his family's opinions admirably. I just have to ask, whatever happened to real Reagan conservatism? (I remember it, I was there!) Scott, remember "Government is not the answer." Why is it that many conservatives now believe that the government should intervene whenever things go wrong for one individual? Thank goodness we don't have the right to regulate if someone thinks his daughter married the wrong guy or if someone thinks affluent parents are too permissive. I am becoming increasingly annoyed by the weird quasi-"It takes a village" brand of conservative who thinks government needs to intervene on adult decisions that DO NOT involve others.

Posted by: leeza | August 8, 2005 11:38 AM

How do you know what his parents think? In any event, no, this is not a conservative position, and most conservatives do not hold it. Frankly, I doubt a sixteen year old has a well thought out political philosophy. This is an emotional reaction to sorrow his community has experienced. The idea will go nowhere and hardly deserves comment.

[`]

It does deserve comment to the growing proof that the kids of Mountain Brook and surrounding communities are suffering terribly and need to be left alone. Beth and Greta keep chasing them and demanding answers. Beth got her answers the very next day. The MB kids keep saying they have no other information and know as much as we do. There are reports beginning to surface that some of these kids are totally falling apart with guilt and depression. It is interesting that in the last interview of the three friends that one of them was very denfensive and made it clear that Natalee had been drinking. It was the girl with a ponytail.

I can tell that these kids and their parents are getting fed up with being blamed for this tragedy. Those parents need to stop allowing their kids to be interviewed.

[MrsJimiHendrix]

Dan

thanks for the article from the Clemson QB. it is really about time someone come out and speak clearly about this gal.

as for the critics and their ratings, as you now know, there are those who do and those who critique

[DennisAOK]

And while we're on the blame game, Beth Twitty is going to get herself sued and kicked off the island. How long is the country of Aruba going to let her broadcast to the world about their supposed "corruption," and "coverups," even while they are giving her everything for free?

Would we allow some foreigner to come here and blame and blast us after their kid had a wild holiday and turned out missing? Would we allow same foreigner to set up news conferences and beam to the world and outer space that the US was "corrupt?" Would we give them a free stay?

Honest answers only please.

Posted by: ` | August 8, 2005 02:29 PM

I don't know what the Aruban government is giving the Twittys for free. The Holiday Inn, a private organization, gave her free services, not the Aruban government.

If our government had screwed up a criminal investigation of an act committd against a foreigner on US soil as badly as Aruba did this one, I would hope that they WOULD broadcast to the world its shortcomings, and I would hope we Americans would do something about it. And, yes, they could set up news conferences, as we have freedom of speech here.

[bj]

Would we allow a foreiner?? THEY WOULDN'T NEED TO WE WOULD BE DOING IT FOR THEM EVEN AGAINST OUR OWN GOVERNERMENT, REMEMBER WE DON'T LIKE BEING FEED THE BULL S@#T!!!!

[Isanah]

In regards to peer pressure for teens to participate in a graduation trip like the one NH went on, I agree this situation places undo pressure on parents. Years ago my daughter begged to participate in a well known modeling instruction program. The modeling company was allowed to present their school to the students through broshures. In hind site what if someone was molested by someone at this modeling school. Wouldn't the public school have had some responsibility to screen the modeling agency prior to allowing the broshure to be distributed in the school? This is the sort of regulation that public schools need to be accountable for to not allow private groups to advertise within their system. I'm not saying that NH's school did allow the travel angency to advertise within the school, but I do hope that they had educated the parents that the school does not, in any way, endorse these trips. Perhaps the teen who wrote about government involvement on teen issues should focus on schools taking a stance on advertisements toward students of any kind. The public schools can and should take notice that parents must be notified that all private organizations presented to students are not verified by the school district and students and their parents are taking possible risks by participating in them. I complained about the modeling agency and that I did not think the school should be in any way promoting private businesses to their students. I'm not saying that MB schools are liable for an incident like this one...but did they take an active stance to ensure parents to know that they didn't encourage this sort of grad trip. If they didn't, they should be rethinking their policies. For no other reason because it was possibly a big oversight in their guidance provided to students and their parents. There was some mention of a broshure depicting the dangers of a "clubbing", schools aware of this kind of grad trip should send letters and the broshure to all families with senoirs. Someone thought enough for a waiver to be signed concerning underage drinking, so they should of also had enough foresight to have a waiver signed that "as a parent I realize there is many risks that my teen will be subjected to on this trip to Aruba" and then the risks outlined.

[Cathy]

This same group of teens in Grand Cayman or in Nassau would have been noticeably out of place and their behavior would have been more subdued by circumstances and controlled by the local culture. It is not for no reason that group charters to Aruba are at the low end of the cost scale. There are no bargains in this world - only cheap things.

Posted by: Figleaf | August 8, 2005 12:17 PM

I don't see your point that their behavior would have been noticeable out of place. These kids were not misbehaving in Aruba. Grand Cayman, Nassau, and Aruba have legal drinking age at 18 years of age. I would rather go to Aruba than Nassau; Nassau has a high crime rate. On their website they put their crime rate in small letters, and passing it off as being no higher than large US cities. The Grand Cayman has a problem with sexual assaults, especially situations involving acquaintance rape or use of "date rape" drugs. So I don't see how these kids would have been safer vacationing in Grand Cayman or Nassau. Higher prices does not mean better. They did not use poor judgment in vacationing in Aruba over the other two places. I don't necessarily blame Aruba for what happened to Natalee. It could have happened anywhere. Aruban authorities were slow to act in gathering evidence that could have solved Natalee disappearance in a matter of days. Whether it is a cruise ship or an island, the authorities are slow to react to a situation that they think would hurt their tourism trade and cost them money. The same could have happened to Natalee in Grand Cayman or Nassau.

The case does not belong in the halls of congress, regulating parental responsibility instead of self-regulating. The government cannot always solve people problems, and they have a tendency making the problem worse instead of better through their liberals programs. People need to take responsibility for their own actions.

[amberlite]

DennisAOK, Natalee's own mother said in an early interview that her stepson had warned her about the "goings on" at Carlos 'n Charlies. So, at least the most relevant parent in this equation knew that the place existed and that the senior groups were frequenting the clubs.

[amberlite]

All of you people who keep saying there is a boycott of Aruba are deluding yourselves. If you were not part of the ACTUAL consumer group, then no one cares if you boycott. So, if you were too poor, unsophisticated, or just plain lazy to travel to Aruba, I don't think your boycott is going to help. But I guess it does give you a sense of power (again, delusional).

[DennisAOK]

Amberlite,

I had not seen that. I assume that statement was made before, and not after, Natalee's disappearance. If so, I would agree that should have prompted a mother-daughter conversation.

By the way, I do not think Natalee left the bar stone cold sober and thought she was getting into a cab, as her mother now claims. She probably had a higher comfort level with Joran because she had talked with him earlier, and thought he was a fellow tourist, from Holland, staying at the HI. Alcohol probably caused her to lower her guard. Dan reported several of the girls, including Natalee, found him attractive, so she may have even planned to "make out" with him at the beach. Jug himself alluded to this possibility early on. None of this, of course, justifies whatever the three of them did to her.

[DennisAOK]

Isanah,

The Mountain Brook school district did not endorse the trip, which was sponsored by a private travel agency. The parents signed waivers accepting full responsibility should anything go wrong.

[Jane]

Those who are sick of Beth's voice and all the news on Natalee:

Turn the channel. Stop visiting this web log to complain about how sick you are of it. Go to the logs that are focusing on your most valued topics. I have faith in you. You can do it.

[icey]

Yep, locals don't especially like the tourists kids too much. They think they are "too rowdy" or "don't spend enough money at the shops", etc.. but they sure do like to channel them to CnC's, especially the female tourists.

There's obviously a lesson to be learned here. These kids had let their guard down on vacation, and drinking dropped their defenses even further. Couple that with the predators on the scene, and here we are. Too bad we can't get an accounting of all the crimes that have CnC's or the other slime bars within their timeframe.

Yes, these places exist in the US, but they usually meet their demise by either baltent violations or public pressure.

Have only the locals send thier kids to CnC's and see how long the place stays open.

icey

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
In fairness to the Mountain Brook parents, I do not think most of them had any idea their children would be frequenting a place like Carlos & Charlies. It was not planned, but came about when the bus driver on the way in from the airport pointed it out and said it was definitely not to be missed. One of the chaperones, indirectly interviewed by Bill O'Reilly early on, when asked if he would do anything differently were he to chaperone again, said only that he would avoid C&C's - too raunchy for 18 year olds.

Posted by: DennisAOK | August 8, 2005 02:10 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[SupportOurTroops]

This is "definitively" a rich people thang.

Only the welltodoers send their kids on fancy spring junkets. We who struggle to pay car insurance have no such concerns. We are eating Ramen noodles at the end of the month, never mind if it will be Aruba or Cancun, or or.

But now this is an international dilemma? We have men perishing in Iraq every week, young men who had bright futures too. Babies daddies. Sons. They didn't leave to party, nuff said.

Beth Twitty has announced she wants Holland's involvement, Columbia, Venezuela, and more US help. Columbia is trying to free itself from the drug trade's chokehold, and Venezuela is suffering under a despot. But none of that matters anymore. IN fact, nothing matters. Not your boys in Iraq, not your kids. nothing.

Because Natalee Holloway is missing.

Posted by: Blarney | August 8, 2005 12:00 PM

Let's not forget the women in service too:0) I support many things going on in our world especially our troops. I do support finding Natalee and every missing person out there! It's unfortunate that it is not reality. Sad and unfortunate. Best wishes to all.....LIFE IS GOOD (if you want it to be) AND LIFE IS SHORT!

[leeza]

Speaking of Carlos 'n Charlie's and other "slime bars" icey said: Yes, these places exist in the US, but they usually meet their demise by either baltent violations or public pressure.
Leeza says: icey, what planet are you from? Every town in every state of the union has "clubs" where people need to be cautious. Just as an example, try checking out Myrtle Beach on a summer weekend night. Maybe instead of blaming one bar in one city, you should wonder why 50 people would go to a club (which is also a restaurant), and not one would remain sober and watch out for the others.
Maybe you should go to Aruba and open a clean, teen club as an option. Just don't quit your day job, because even you know how long it will last.
CnC, and the many, many places like it, are giving the buyer what he/she wants. That's why these places exist and thrive, and not just in Aruba.