Aruba doesn’t seem to be helping

Link: Herald Bulletin.

Where is Natalee? Until answered, Aruba should not be visited by anyone worldwide!

This statement has been prominently displayed on The Lemon Drop’s marquee for the past three weeks at 1701 Mounds Road. “Aruba doesn’t seem to be helping,” said owner Bill Pitts in regard to the ongoing investigation of Natalee Holloway’s disappearance.

Comments

[ChinbeardXIV]

Without a body or at least some (any) forensic evidence, it's just a he said/she said case where a girl is missing. If he's charged and/or prosecuted on the basis of "what if?", then Mayberry is not the most podunk depiction of law enforcement in the world anymore...

(BTW, I live about 25 minutes from Mt. Airy, NC--the birthplace of Mayberry, so to speak...)

[Justice4All]

I have not heard anyone still hunting Ted Kennedy for negligent homocide.

Posted by: bryan | Aug 25, 2005 12:33:19 PM

It is in conversation on a daily basis I hear.
a few days ago in a small down south of houston we had a 1 yr. anniversary of an 18yr old girl who disappeared w/o a trace, she is still missing... the volunteer searches lasted about 3 days... don't think it was ever mentioned on national news..

Posted by: ss | Aug 25, 2005 12:23:26 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isn't Equisearch from Texas?

[ChinbeardXIV]

Yes, J4A...Equusearch is from Texas.

[Suzanne]

There was the possibilty that valuable forensic evidence was not obtained at the get go.
You can't go back, but you can come clean.

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 12:29:22 PM

Theoretically, you can come clean (and don't we all wish they would!) but they won't. Their defense team tells them not to say anything. Why should they incriminate themselves if they don't have to? I just hope that in the future, places where tourists go will be more reactive to handle a problem competently from the beginning. If that happens, at least something good will have come out of this thing. Maybe a lot of these places should invest in some training of their police/detectives so they have some sort of effective procedure in place. Maybe a lot of these foreign police depts. have been focused on serving their community. In the future, maybe a little more focus on the tourists than they've had in the past would be good. I had some money stolen from me in Colombia once, and the police gave me a nod and a grin, and sent me on my way. They knew I was here today, gone tomorrow. Hopefully these attitudes will change.

[Disappointed Arubian]

Isn't Equisearch from Texas?

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 12:37:43 PM

Um...Texas EquuSearch...maybe? Lol.

Oh yeah, I walked into a few of them at a local gasstation last week.
They seemed friendly enough and they were joking and laughing with the cashier. They seemed to have gotten used to their presence and even knwo them by first names.

[ChinbeardXIV]

Suzanne, switch positions for a second and look at it from another angle with me--and I'll do the same from your scenario. If JvdS actually didn't harm NH--and, left her (either at the beach, in a hotel room, etc.), then maybe he has come clean. What then? I can almost assure you that the ALE and FBI will not believe that, even if it is true.

[Justice4All]

Well what do you suppose will happen when they don't find Natalee and Jurine goes free...

[Suzanne]

Suzanne, switch positions for a second and look at it from another angle with me--and I'll do the same from your scenario. If JvdS actually didn't harm NH--and, left her (either at the beach, in a hotel room, etc.), then maybe he has come clean. What then? I can almost assure you that the ALE and FBI will not believe that, even if it is true.

Posted by: ChinbeardXIV | Aug 25, 2005 12:41:25 PM

I don't have a problem looking from all angles. It just doesn't make any sense that the stories would change, that the word "body" would be mentioned early on by PVDS, that cars would be washed in the early morning hours, that hard drives would be "cleaned" etc etc. Why make up stories and have people like Croes show up at the police station with a false story? Why would you do that if you were innocent? I can understand that if you are young and scared, you might do and say stupid (or even untrue) things. But when you have several people repeating the same story, it really does seem like a planned cover-up.

[Disappointed Arubian]

Well what do you suppose will happen when they don't find Natalee and Jurine goes free...

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 12:45:54 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My guess is that the VDS will immediately flee to Holland because the Arubians will never give them a rest and will always remind them of Natalee.

If they don't leave immediately I predict a few beatings for Joran before he goes atleast. He has the majority of Arubians pissed.

[Justice4All]

Why would he piss of the Arubans?

[ChinbeardXIV]

Jurine? Joran...oh, him. I believe JvdS and company will go free because nothing suggests they did anything more than hang out with a girl and have sex with her.

I think they'll all lead sheltered lives for a year or so and then they'll fit right back into society. I think the case will be forgotten within 6 months of his release. I don't think the case will ever be solved.

I think he probably accidentally killed her--but--the lack of a body and the "disappearance without a trace" thing makes me second guess that theory. My other thought is that someone else--much more powerful than the van der Sloot or Kalpoe families--abducted her, killed her, and disposed of her.

[Disappointed Arubian]

Why would he piss of the Arubans?

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 12:49:38 PM

He probably has the answers that will lead to Natalee and resolution of the case or atleast clues and he's holding them back. He refuses to give a mother her daughter back and he's tarnished our name so bad. People are not happy to have him here, Arubians are ashamed of him.

[Disappointed Arubian]

I think they'll all lead sheltered lives for a year or so and then they'll fit right back into society. I think the case will be forgotten within 6 months of his release. I don't think the case will ever be solved.

Posted by: ChinbeardXIV | Aug 25, 2005 12:50:05 PM

Less likely. The Arubians will not let them forget what happened. They would have to leave the island.

[Justice4All]

Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Aug 25, 2005 12:51:28 PM

You pretty much said it all.

I feel sorry for the citizens of Aruba

Do you think your "goverment" has any blame?

[Suzanne]

My other thought is that someone else--much more powerful than the van der Sloot or Kalpoe families--abducted her, killed her, and disposed of her.

Posted by: ChinbeardXIV | Aug 25, 2005 12:50:05 PM

That's a definite possibility, although I really feel that those boys know more than they are telling. I think PVDS knows more than he is telling also.
If the "more powerful" theory is true, then we'll definitely never know. I had a creepy experience at an Aruban casino once that gave me the feeling that eyes and ears were everywhere in there.

[Disappointed Arubian]

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 12:54:11 PM

The government may have had a direct or indirect effect on the case. Most Arubians blame the government's lack of professionalism either way and they have lost a lot of votes for the coming election.
I don't think Oduber will sit again, this time he'll have to walk. Arubians are pissed at him: "Get off, the good guys have to govern now!" (This was repeatedly yelled out by Arubians at a manifestatio.)

[ChinbeardXIV]

Suzanne, here is my thinking on your post, with each sentence broken down:

"I don't have a problem looking from all angles."

No problem.

"It just doesn't make any sense that the stories would change,..."

It is human nature to exclaim innocence under interrogation--especially when one is innocent. After repeated hours of this, though, it would make sense that a person would start lying in ways that wouldn't necessariy implicate anyone else..."MAYBE Deepak raped her and he MIGHT have killed and buried her."

"...that the word "body" would be mentioned early on by PVDS,..."

This is a quote that has been changed many times throught this case. "No body, no crime" could be the same thing as "If she's not dead, you can't be arrested for murder"...

"...that cars would be washed in the early morning hours,..."

We don't know this is a fact--and--we don't know that Mr. Kalpoe didn't do this regularly. Even his mom said (on TV) that he was really nit-picky about the cleanliness of his car.

"...that hard drives would be "cleaned" etc etc..."

There's no evidence of this...only speculation.

"Why make up stories and have people like Croes show up at the police station with a false story?"

Mr. Croes said he did that on his own...overheard a conversation and ran with it.

"Why would you do that if you were innocent?"

Answers are above.

Posted by: Suzanne | Aug 25, 2005 12:47:21 PM

[ChinbeardXIV]

Less likely. The Arubians will not let them forget what happened. They would have to leave the island.

Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Aug 25, 2005 12:53:39 PM

True, DA...and I think that is a foregone conclusion. Holland, here they come...

[Justice4All]

I truly wish the Arubians well,,, I do think that if Jurine is release and they see his ass whippin by the Arubians, there may be confidence to promote your tourism. But I think the Aruban citizens need to know this is not about them. It's all about finding Natalee and sending her home.

[Disappointed Arubian]

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 1:01:26 PM

True, we all want Natalee found. But knowing that this arrogant Dutch boy has the answers, has lied to the police and now refuses to talk ticks a few people off.

[ChinbeardXIV]

J4A, I've done as much research as I possibly can on the subject of tourism in Aruba...and it doesn't look to me like it has changed all that much since 05/30/05. What's your take on it?

[Justice4All]

DA, thanks for the info, I gotta go
Nice day everyone,

[Suzanne]

Mr. Croes said he did that on his own...overheard a conversation and ran with it.

"Why would you do that if you were innocent?"

You're right. Lots of rumors. I should make a list of things that Arlene Schipper admits was said and keep it around for reference. As far as Croes, could be another rumor, but I thought he said he didn't know the 3 guys, and had just overheard the conversation. I think it did turn out he knew them, so his story wouldn't be true. Something fishy with the whole thing. How many guys do you know would take the trouble to go to the police with an "overheard" story? Another thing, didn't Joran say Natalee hit her head? Why didn't they call an ambulance? When 2+2 doesn't add up REPEATEDLY, it really does make you wonder.

[Suzanne]

It's been a polite conversation, for a refreshing change. Hopefully something will be found soon. Maybe our theories are different, but we all want the best for Arubans and the Holloways. Have a great day everyone.

[ChinbeardXIV]

Arlene Ellis-Schipper...thanks, Suzanne. She's my favorite!

"Another thing, didn't Joran say Natalee hit her head? Why didn't they call an ambulance?"

I heard he said she fell down at the HI, refused assistance, and walked in with a black security guard--but, that was during the first crazy story.

Just because a person lies, it doesn't make them a murder, a rapist, or even a bad person, in general.

Like I said before, I think he did something to add to her demise--but, nothing suggests it except for rumors, scuttlebutt, and gut-feelings.

[maria]

hey chin thanks

[Justice4All]

J4A, I've done as much research as I possibly can on the subject of tourism in Aruba...and it doesn't look to me like it has changed all that much since 05/30/05. What's your take on it?

Posted by: ChinbeardXIV | Aug 25, 2005 1:04:02 PM

Ok before I go,

I think that once this case is done, there may have to be a massive pr campaign (damage control) I am reminded of St. Croix. I think right now there is an up in tourism due directly to this case, once the press moves on, who knows. But I think there will be a hurt down the line. Not that I feel it is derserved. I just think tourist will be distanced from Aruba.

[ChinbeardXIV]

Thanks for the conversation, Suzanne...I hope to see you around again!

[ChinbeardXIV]

You know 148 is up now, right, Maria?

[maria]

you guys
was arubas daily news posted ?

[maria]

forum 148 was opend

[Suzanne]

Just because a person lies, it doesn't make them a murder, a rapist, or even a bad person, in general.

Like I said before, I think he did something to add to her demise--but, nothing suggests it except for rumors, scuttlebutt, and gut-feelings.

Posted by: ChinbeardXIV | Aug 25, 2005 1:11:43 PM

You're right - liar and murderer not necessarily the same. But liar usually does mean cover up and telling the truth from the get-go could have helped BHT and the police figure out what happened. Now its probably too late. So liar=obstruction of justice. I really do have to go, but have appreciated good conversation ChinbeardXIV and everyone else.

[ChinbeardXIV]

J4A, good point! I hadn't taken into consideration that such "drama" (no disrespect to anyone with that word) might cause a spike instead of a dip. Wow...we really are looky-loos in traffic, aren't we??? Ha!

Thanks for your opinion, J4A...I'll definitely look at it from that angle now...

[maria]

do we move to 148 ?

[ChinbeardXIV]

Liar=Obstruction of Justice...yes, I'll definitely agree with that.

Take care!

[Suzanne]

P.S. Looks like the discussion forum is back up. I won't be going there now, but just FYI

[Disappointed Arubian]

I think right now there is an up in tourism due directly to this case, once the press moves on, who knows. But I think there will be a hurt down the line. Not that I feel it is derserved. I just think tourist will be distanced from Aruba.

Posted by: Justice4All | Aug 25, 2005 1:12:35 PM

The damage will be seen next year during the high season. Tourists seem to be attracted to the case at the moment.

[Another Observer]

Aruba has done nothing of value to help in this case. Everything Aruba has done was AFTER they released the 3 suspects for 8-10 days after their initial questioning, giving them sufficient time to easily clean up their mess, hide evidence and conspire with anyone who'll help. Arguably, nothing Aruba after arresting the 3 suspects really matters b/c it knew that NH would not be found and thus hoping no harm would come to Aruba.

[Disappointed Arubian]

Posted by: Another Observer | Aug 25, 2005 1:22:27 PM

And you know all of this for a fact. You were there to personally see that nothing was happening at the time.

[Another Observer]

And you know all of this for a fact. You were there to personally see that nothing was happening at the time.

Posted by: Disappointed Arubian | Aug 25, 2005 1:25:51 PM

Dissapointed - No, I was'nt there, but logic suggests that if someone was involved in a crime (why arrest them at all if they were not involved), then having 8-10 days to clean up your mess certainly helps the case. What did Aruba do in the first 8-10 days of the investigation? They said they tracked the suspects electronically? Big deal! They arrest and search the homes of the 2 black security guards within minutes but wait 10 days to arrest and search Joran and friends?

[lynn]

It's too obvious to ignore...
1. Aruba has allowed this case to be botched. Aruba has allowed a well-known 17-year-old to gamble, drink underage in a bar,and abuse women. 2. Someone in Aruba knows what happened to Natalee, and they are too scared of the corrupt government to come forward.
3. Natives in Aruba regularly steal from tourists and obnoxously offer them drugs.
4. People disappear in Aruba, never to be heard from again.
NEED ANYMORE REASONS TO BOYCOTT ARUBA??? All travel agents and airlines need to cut back or eliminate Aruba as a destination. There are MANY, MANY more sandy beaches in the world. If Arubans care about their island, they need to gather and pressure their govenment into coming forth with what is known in this, and all other crime cases. Tourists will eventually go back to this island..in oh...say about 10 years!!!!! It's going to be a long, dry 10 years!!!!

[noleans]

It's plain and simple: Aruba is unsafe.

[bryan]

Well what do you suppose will happen when they don't find Natalee and Jurine goes free

BHT will assault and/or accuse and/or harrass Joran or his family to the extent that she is prosecuted.

I wonder if Fox, CNN, NBC, etc. have a large enough interest in hotel/motel business in another island or Mexico. The big money always has more than one motive.

Aruban population 70000 murders per year reported as 3 that is .004% US population 350,000,000 murders per year 14000 this too is .004%. Where am I safer - neither. Where will the police protect my best interest better after I am killed.

[Dianne]

lynn

That is questionalbe.

I think people that have always traveled to Aruba will continue to do so.
My question to you is - - how often have you traveled to Aruba to be able to post so knowledgable?

[FloridaPatty]

Why does the US have such an illegal immigration problem? Latin Americans are seeking amongst other things, jobs that are readily available in the US. It would simply be a redistribution of wealth.

Exactly!

you don't see a floatilla going AWAY from US shores do you?

[Dianne]

Aruba has a high standard of living.
Americans can not get their jobs period.
And, they make as much money as most Americans.
Certainly more than our sears or wal-mart workers!!
Their homes are lovely, and they live well.
What do you think this is some 3rd world country??
Go Visit!

[sherrie]

I just wonder if Joran had come to school in the U.S. and he had gone to a bar and some girls from Birmingham were hitting on him and then they got him in a car with them and several people saw them take Joran away in the car and there was proof that the last people Joran was seen with were these girls from Birmingham -(who had a reputation for living life on the fast side)And then the next day Joran is missing. So his parents come to the U.S. and they are told that these girls took Joran from the bar but no one has really looked into that yet...then the girls say "Oh, we left him at his dorm and we saw some black security guards...and uh that's it. and uh yea he was drunk. So the authorities here in the U.S. run and arrest the security guards but then they soon realize that they are innocent so the authorities let them go and say well...so much time has passed but we will question those girls but you know...we really don't know anything. So they arrest the girls from Birmingham since Joran's mama and daddy are pitching a fit. They let the girls tell them all sorts of stories and they say well...we still don't have a body and so...we will keep one girl and just see what happens. The other girls go free and Joran's mama and daddy are still having a fit because the police and American's cannot find their boy. What should the U.S. do?
Should all the U.S. citizens try to help find the boy? That would look good..so yes, the American's will all look for the boy and most of the American's are good, honest people and really want to find Joran. But, too bad we can not find him. Meanwhile, mama and daddy find out lots of bad things about these girls and urge the police to arrest them again and make them tell the truth..but the police say "no body..no crime"
so what can we do? We KNOW they told us many stories and lies but now they will not talk anymore. And mama and daddy you are making the U.S. look bad so please go home. We looked for your little boy and we did what we could and yes it does look like some of the police and government officals tried to cover-up for these bad Birmingham girls but we can not do anything about that. Some people may know what happened but we can't rat out one of our privilged citizens. So, please Joran's mama and daddy go home. We may never find your boy and you are just going to have to accept that.
How do you think the story ended? Do you think Joran's parents would just shrug their shoulders and say oh well the U.S. did it's best I quess we should just go back to Aruba and shut-up.

[Paulo]

The Honorable ChinXIV and fellow others,

Chin, I love your posts. There are informative, succinct, and right to the point; moreover, you are also always open to “what have I missed,” and flexible enough to entertain anyone’s notions.

Abstaining from the use of, or buying, or dealing with to express a protest or to coerce seems like a pretty subjective issue to me. If I don’t want to have anything to do with smoking then of course it is my prerogative to do whatever I feel insofar as it is my decision NOT to have smoke around me.

If I want to tell the tobacco company’s about it, well, that too is my right. If I don't want to go to Aruba or otherwise boycott, it is perfectly within my right to do so. The notion is purely up to one’s own discretion.

Paulo

[lynn]

lynn

That is questionalbe.

I think people that have always traveled to Aruba will continue to do so.
My question to you is - - how often have you traveled to Aruba to be able to post so knowledgable?

Posted by: Dianne | Aug 25, 2005 3:41:12 PM

Dianne: I've been there several times, AND my child was also on this graduation trip with Natalee. Think I want to go back? Think again. I'll say it once again...Boycott Aruba. If they have such high standards, then they won't miss the $$$$ spent there by tourists. Let them experience a little peace and quiet from lack of tourists, then see if anyone speaks up. Do I think Aruba is a third world country? From the amount of corruption that is surfacing...it's close!!!

[lynn]

Sherri...In America, if the situation was reversed, first of all, the suspect(s) would have been proven guilty LONG ago. We would have no problem getting to the bottom of a situation, even if it made one of us guilty and really bad. It happens all the time. Sure, sometimes our legal system fails (like with OJ and M. Jackson), but for the most part, it works, and our police and detectives would have been all over this and I firmly believe those that were wrong would have been caught and imprisioned and sentenced appropriately. We have standards and those standards apply to everybody. Our system isn't perfect, but it's certainly better than yours.