Natalee Holloway Update

The lack of information available as regards the Natalee Holloway disappearance continues to trouble many Americans. Numerous rumors and viewpoints abound and often conflict in the vacuum imposed by a less than transparent judicial system some suggest is more in line with an old world monarchist-based philosophy.

An increasingly more Democratic world, most particularly the United States, unaccustomed and uncomfortable with almost any cloak of of secrecy in public affairs watches and hopes that some secretive form of justice might emerge from behind the curtain of a still on going investigation. Yet, as each day passes, both casual and legal observers continue to grow more doubtful.

Some of the first Internet-based reports of the disappearance emerged here on an Aruban-based message board through postings attributed but unconfirmed as originating from Mountain Brook, Alabama.

My best friend is at a prayer service for her right now. She hasn't heard anything yet. Thanks for everyone's concern. We have all made stupid decisions, maybe not so drastic, but she is supposedly a great girl who doesn't drink much. She just had too much to drink, and that, mixed with her age is not a good combination.

The investigation has focused on Joran Van der Sloot, son of a failed judge to be as a result of reports that the boy was the last one seen with Natalee Holloway. But even that report can be called into question - perhaps first by the unconfirmed Internet-based report below.

My husband and I were in Aruba last week and spent time with the girls on The DePalm tours snorkel/booze cruise. We saw Natalie later that night at Carlos and Charlies and we commented that she was up to partyubg(sic) that night because of the exhaustive day we had on the boat. When we saw her leave she left by herself. No one was with her but we did notice some local guys talking to her while she was in there. I do not know if this will help but my heart goes out to the family and I can not believe this has happened.I live 4000 miles away outside of Detroit, Michigan and I feel like it happened to somone(sic) I know having spent tome(sic) with them on the boat. I even have pictures of them.I will pray for her and her family. Sincerly(sic) John and Michele Gumm

I've since spoken with multiple reliable sources with direct knowledge of events of the night Natalee Holloway disappeared. One Internet-based, un-related and as yet unconfirmed report did begin to paint a troubling picture of events at Carlos and Charlies that night as far back as June 8. It's a picture many Americans and American parents may find troubling.

"Thursday we rented Harley's from Larry at Big twin HD. We did a 5 hour tour of the island went to Charlies and what a cool place that is. The gang of high school seniors from Alabama arrive YIKES the quiet has ceased!!! I dont want to go into the going ons with these kids because we all know what has happened and I really dont think its appropriate to ruin my trip report with details but there are A LOT of details to be told".

Internet-based reports like the above are being provided for context, but are not being relied upon in any manner to confirm this report. The information I am posting has resulted from actual conversations with real people with confirmed identities from Aruba to Alabama who are directly aware of events of that evening. However, even that will likely leave an air of mystery.

I've learned that one of the FBI's concerns early on in this investigation went to how many of the graduates in attendance on the trip remembered things clearly as a result of the heavy partying that went on during portions of the trip, particularly it's concluding and now seemingly tragic final night.

As one Mountain Brook Mother told me, "I feel that it is time for the parents, students, and members of the Mountain Brook community to step back and look at this scenario realistically. We need to stop playing the blame game - we are pointing fingers at everyone; the Arubans, the Dutch, the media, etc. We are a community in denial ... The bottom line is that our kids got caught up in the culture at Carlos and Charlies and were behaving wildly that night - dancing provocatively, doing body shots - I shudder to think what we might have seen had we been flies on the wall that night ... The dangerous part of the whole deal was that they were out of their element - they are young and inexperienced and were with people from all over the world ... the world is full of kooks and our kids were not behaving like ladies or gentlemen."

None of the individuals I spoke with for this report expressed anything but sincere compassion and understanding for the family of Natalee Holloway. As reported here, the trip was seen almost as a Rite of passage for the group of teens from Mountain Brook. Also, graduating seniors from across America regularly undertake such trips without tragic result.

Additionally, also as reported here, no parent I spoke with suggested any wrong doing on the part of chaperone's, some pointing out that along with a common knowledge of what the trip might entail, waivers were signed and chaperone's appear to have honored their obligations under that understanding.

One witness did have knowledge that, along with many of the graduates from Mountain Brook, Natalee Holloway, from all accounts a decent and self-respecting young woman was an active participant in the partying, as per the above.

No one should interpret the above as a statement of opinion by me that Natalee Holloway or Beth Twitty are in anyway to blame in what is likely a terrible tragedy. In my opinion they represent only two of many individual Americans who could have fallen victim to events of a celebratory night in a foreign and now possibly fatal foreign land.

This report is the first in a three and possibly four part series, depending on weekend developments covering events in and around the disappearance of Natalee Holloway to be completed this weekend. That's not a ploy to make this web log attract viewers. Given my wrok schedule, were I to complete the entire report tonight, it would not get the treatment it deserves.

I'll get them up as quickly as I can - perhaps even completed by tomorrow.

Comments

[Hmmm....]

Concerned,
well I am "concerned" about this human trafficking issue. If it is not part of Natalee's case, it is still a very big global issue that I feel needs to be learned about human trafficking and kidnapping of young children in the U.S. and abroad to be used for porn and sex slavery - not to mention non-sexual use of underground slave labor. Six months ago, I just had no idea that human trafficking was this big.

[Yolande]

Hmmm, Im not saying Aruban police does a good job as I simply dont know [theres much kept secret]
But there are 20 investigators working on the case every day and I think Aruba wants nothing more than to solve this case.

The van der Sloots home has already been searched twice, I just read somewhere. But I agree it would look better if they would permit Equusearch to do that job one more time.

[Concerned]

Hmmm. I even think that human trafficking has the potential to become a new form of terrorism. We need to educate ourselves about this evil.
Before NH, I did not know about this phonomena either.

[Brian]

Hmmm~
Your theory is correct and follows my line of logic. The police (van der Straaten) cannot afford to expose any evidence, even if the evidence is a living person....

The island has a lot to lose regarding this case. They've messed with the wrong family and America is watching.

[Concerned]

We better contnue to watch because they think we will get tired and just go away.

[Kat_Gram]

Well, I am glad to see someone else thinks its strange that Equusearch can't search the VDS property. Yes, the property was searched, but not with sniffer or cadaver dogs.

Next week, there is some very specialized equipment coming in. Some sort of radar where you can tell if something is buried below ground and some other piece of equipment that he wants to put down the unused well on the VDS property.

I haven't seen all the interviews with Beth and Jug, but right from the beginning Paul VDS was acting defensive according to them. They were there, we weren't and if they think Paul VDS is involved in a cover up,then there is probably something to it.

[CIndyLouWho]

Brian,
I find your theory VERY plausible. Reasons:
1. NO body and thus far no evidence (that we know of) that there was a death.
2. "NO body, no crime". PVDS seems very sure that a body is not going to turn up. Why? She's not on the island and she's not dead.
3. The underworld that may have her certainly does not want their laundry "aired" and will keep her under wraps.
4. I'll try to find this link. There was a follow up post to the link that Dan posted last night by the couple that saw the MB students at C&C's. This person(s) claimed to have seen NH with a big group of guys looking drugged up. Could this be why BHT "knows" she was kidnapped...I'm going to try to find the link right now. Could just be a bunch of cr*p, or it could be some of the info that Jug has that he can't discuss...

[CIndyLouWho]

Can't find the link but will continue looking. As I'm reading the posts though it seems that there were several reports of her having been spotted. They may have been hoaxes or just someone else.

[Brian]

As Beth has said many times, you have to go back to the beginning to find the TRUTH. The original lie was designed to cover probable future events. Nat was dropped off at the Holiday Inn. Black guys = drugs/sexual predators (abuse and showing up at a crack house); she stumbled (drunk) and fell (big issue...designed to explain an injury). Like with many things in life, often the Truth is explained early and the Lie is explained later.

[wreck]

I thought early on that Human Trafficking might have played a role in this, but as time goes on -- I think it is less likely. Of course we would never hear of it, but; I believe our CIA would have been quietly working behind the scenes and would have most likely had a resolution by now. Maybe I put to much faith in our Intellegence capabilities, but I just don't think that the culprit here. I hope I am wrong, as it would the best scenario possible now for Natalee to still be alive.

[LetsHelp]

Re Dan's initial piece,

I don't think its revelation to anyone that the Alabama teenagers were drinking, partying and so forth, but I really don't see how this has anything to do with Natalee's disappearance except that perhaps if people had been a little less wild and partying that night Natalee might have ended up staying with the MB group...

I also don't care or need to see information that tells me how much Natalee may have been drinking or partying, none of it give anyone the right to harm her, these kinds of "revelations" just damage her memory and give more people an excuse to say whatever happened to her was her fault because of her bad decision-making.

[Kat_Gram]

Letshelp;

I agree with you totally. This is the first web blog I have ever gone one and it is because of my interest in Natalee's disappearance. I have looked at other sites and they are into trashing Natalee and the family. I find that very upsetting so I don't go to other sites other than Scared Monkeys.I don't want to see that trash talk here.

This site seems to have more compassion and the people who post seem to be more intelligent.

[TexasMom]

"This person(s) claimed to have seen NH with a big group of guys looking drugged up."
*********

Just curious, has there been any follow-up to the information that came out very early on regarding Joran's porno video tape that he alledged made of the gang rape of his 14 year-old "girlfriend" on the beach. The same tape he evidently made to sell?

Joran admits to having "control" of Natalee's location from C&C's until about 2:00 a.m.. If she was seen acting "drugged" with a large group of boys, isn't it possible Joran was staging another video opportunity, and "something bad happened"? At this point I honestly don't know what to think about her being alive or dead. If she is alive, it will only be a matter of time before her captors either get bored with her, or someone gets too close and they dispose of her. If she's not alive, PVDS knows darn well where the "evidence" is, and finding it would lead to "outing" just a whole bunch of people (probably kids of influencial parents).

I keep praying, and hoping...

Hey Dan, we love you here in Texas too! Keep up the wonderful work, and tell the nay-sayers and grammar geeks to go play on a freeway somewhere.

[Whiteshark]

many of you who are condeming the decision made by these parents to allow their children to go to Aruba, should find out what goes on in your town during a Friday or Saturday night houseparty. It would turn your stomach. Little Berea KY had 6 kids OD on script meds belonging to a parent during a houseparty.......that doesn't even include the things most of us parents think of as sex, that many highschoolers do NOT think is sex.

[LetsHelp]

Kat Gram,

Yeah I have found this and scared monkeys to be pretty reasonable and not too much trashing of the family goes on, more about trying to figure out what might have happened based on what little is known.

Just curious what site did you visit?

I also thought about the porn tape angle a while ago since they seized DVD's and cameras from the suspects, that maybe she was drugged and taken for some kind of porn taping to a house somewhere and that is where she OD'd but I just think for no one to have come forward after all this time seems unlikely...

But, so much about the way this case was investigated from the beginning is pretty far from normal, I think anything is possible in Aruba's little banana republic.

[Kat_Gram]

I don't know the name of the site. I had done a search on " Natalee" on Google and went to a few. And then I went to some via links. I was pretty horrifed. It was sort of like the Jerry Springer show type of mentality thing. Ugh !

[marybeth]

Whiteshark nobody said things don't go on in America.

But that's no reason to INTENTIONALLY SEND them into an atmosphere where you KNOW it's gonna happen. Only a lazy, defeatist parent would do that.

[Not a Hand Wringer]

Hey....what happened to Dan's 'going-postal' rant? I don't blame him for taking it down. It was amateurish. But why'd he post it in the first place if it was not fit for prime-time?

[marybeth]

"I also don't care or need to see information that tells me how much Natalee may have been drinking or partying, none of it give anyone the right to harm her, these kinds of 'revelations' just"

Too bad, because it IS relevant. Perhaps you prefer to go through life with your eyes closed to any reality that you don't "like?" That is certainly your choice.

[mordred]

Hmmm...(and all the kidnap theorists)

I think you are mistaken in susbcribing to the myth that Latin/South America is a hotbed of human trafficking (not including illegal migrant trafficking).

A kidnap victim for the purposes of sexual exploitation is more likely to end up in the US, Germany, Israel, etc:

1. Southeast Asia is the largest source for trafficked persons in the world.
2. Eastern Europe & Western Europe have both one of the heaviest volumes of human trafficking and one of the most advanced responses to it.
3.According to the U.S government, the most popular destinations include Germany, Albania, Yugoslavia and Turkey, as well as distant countries such as Israel, the United Arab Emirates, China and the United States.
4. An estimated 4,000 women from former Soviet countries and Eastern Europe have been shipped to American cities. Florida is a popular U.S. destination, with women being sent to Miami, Orlando, Ft. Lauderdale, Palm Beach and the Panhandle, according to U.S. intelligence. Most of them are brought from Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States and Central Europe.
Sources:
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/rpt/20834.htm

If you would like to help, go to-
http://www.iast.net/howtohelp.htm

Sexual bondage victims rae mostly poor, un-educated, under-privileged, with few family ties. Those are the factors that make them easy & profitable to victimise. In otherwords, kidnapping a girl like Natalee would be a kidnaper's worst nightmare- too much heat & not enough profit.

[Dan]

Someone please post a sense of humor to hand wringer, obviously he's already a joke. The post didn't get pulled hr - don't be so childish. Choosing to slide an off topic post down the page is hadly hedging. I rather like the post and enjoyed making it. One of my better rants. You need to get out more ... and read more web logs. You really don't get the medium, guy.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/because_i_was_a.html

[Kat_Gram]

I don't know the name of the site. I had done a search on " Natalee" on Google and went to a few. And then I went to some via links. I was pretty horrifed. It was sort of like the Jerry Springer show type of mentality thing. Ugh !

[sleuth]

I can't wait for Dan's part 2 to be posted. And for everyone so concerned about what part 1 means to have something else to knock. We can poke and prod and look under all the rocks of why kids will be kids and parents allow kids to be kids or not. But if it saves one more child from the same kind of thing happening to them, then it is worth reading it.

There is something different about how I used to party as teenager, and how teenagers party today. There was always the sense that I had to have some kind of control over what I did, some responsibility, because who knew what might happen. My parents instilled that in me. I work in a high school, so I see and talk to many kids, and so many of them have the idea that getting completely obliterated is almost their obligation. I have heard first hand of how so and so's best friend saw his friend completely passed out and wasted, so he sticks an empty bottle up his rear, and everyone laughed about that for a week. Or about who had sex with who and who couldn't remember how many or with whom, or even with a dog that wondered by. And this was just at one party, a party, by the way, condoned by the parents, permission given! There are no more parameters for behavior in this kind of enabling. It is rampant in our society, and has led to countless heartaches and even death, right here in the USA. Take that same enabling behavior to Aruba, and it is only a matter of time for what happened to Natalee to happen, and will continue to happen unless both parents and kids get their thinking back to a time when boundaries existed.

I think those of us who have said that they would not have let their kid go to Aruba, do not mean to be such squares, such out of date old fashioned whatevers, but if that's what it takes so that my kid will be smart enough to be safe then so be it.

Now that is not to say, that someone could have doped Natalee to the point of her not knowing what was happening. But that brings us to her friends, who were also drinking away...oh yes, all of them drinking so responsibly. And where are the chaperones at this point? If I was Natalee's friend, I would have stopped her from getting into that car, or more likely, I would have gotten in with her, or at least tried to...if they had not allowed me in the car, I would have raised an outcry, and known right then that something bad was happening, and maybe, just maybe something bad happening might have been cut short.

This is all speculation, but like I said earlier: let someone learn not to do what the MB kids and parents did or didn't do, let one person be saved from Natalee's fate, and exposing the underbelly of how she got to be in the pickle she ended up in, will be worth the exposure. It's that simple. Natalee did not deserve what happened to her, but it could have been avoided. That is all we are saying.

Now, we will see what else Dan has to share, and I am grateful, as I learn more here than all the tv combined. And so many of you are like my friends, now, as I recognize your names and here we are, lammenting what has happened to one of our own, and striving to see that justice prevails.

Peace.

[Brian]

Regarding human trafficing, I think Nat was probably NOT an intentional victim of kidnapping. I think she became one once the Twittys arrived on the island. Originally I think the original Joran lie was designed to explain Nat's injuries and her showing up at a crack house in a few days. The plans all got thrown out of whack when the Twittys arrived. Nat just couldn't show up without the media digging up the truth. She may be part of the human trafficing now but more likely just kidnapped waiting for either a big buyer (like a shiek) or a word to return her and the coast is clear. I think this theory makes so much more sense than murder.

[Concerned]

Thanks, sleuth :-)
NH is, at the very least, our opportunity to learn. I would never have accompanied my HS graduate to Cancun on 6/29 if NH hadn't occurred. I would know nothing of human trafficking, the extent of the sophisticated underworld of crime in our global community!

[Brian]

Mordred~
South America is the staging ground for human trafficing transport around the world. It wouldn't surprise me if Nat is located at one of these places. She does have asthma and may be in a hospital (hence a reason for her delayed return).

[TheFunkyBunch]

To those of you condemning Dan's initial piece...get a grip or a clue, whichever or both. He is speaking of what he knows and has been told by reputable sources. Have you all purposely deleted this portion, which is extremely telling, from your grey matter? Here it is again for the clueless...and bear in mind this from a MTB mother:

"As one Mountain Brook Mother told me, "I feel that it is time for the parents, students, and members of the Mountain Brook community to step back and look at this scenario realistically. We need to stop playing the blame game - we are pointing fingers at everyone; the Arubans, the Dutch, the media, etc. We are a community in denial ... The bottom line is that our kids got caught up in the culture at Carlos and Charlies and were behaving wildly that night - dancing provocatively, doing body shots - I shudder to think what we might have seen had we been flies on the wall that night ... The dangerous part of the whole deal was that they were out of their element - they are young and inexperienced and were with people from all over the world ... the world is full of kooks and our kids were not behaving like ladies or gentlemen."

Interesting choice of words she uses... community in denial. Let's get the muzzles of the MTB kids and people, and we just may make some headway in this. Any progress is most definitely not going to come from Aruba. This is not a knock against Arubans, because I don't believe in condemning a whole country due to the actions of a few.

[Schmango]

Hola Senor Dan:

Muchos gracias for the background and the links to previous posts. Been tryin to catch up all day.

So is it true then that no one actually witnessed NH leave C & Cs? Only that a classmate thought they saw or heard her say something that sounded like her screaming "Aruba Aruba" ?

Is this your understanding too?

[Not a Hand Wringer.]

[[ Someone please post a sense of humor to hand wringer, obviously he's already a joke. The post didn't get pulled hr - don't be so childish. Choosing to slide an off topic post down the page is hadly hedging. I rather like the post and enjoyed making it. One of my better rants. You need to get out more ... and read more web logs. You really don't get the medium, guy. ]]

Ah yes...there it is.

Moved from the top of the page down to topic number 11. Exactly the first place, someone would look to find it.

I get the medium just fine by the way. I also get the concept of hiding something in plain sight.

You say the post was off topic?

I think it was off-centred, which is why you chose to bury it where most won't see it or find it.

[Concerned]

Dan~
We realize that all factual information needs to be evaluated and sorted. We do not always like to know the truth, but it helps us grow as parents, kids, individuals and as a society. Keep the information flowing. Always for the good....

[elan]

if people in the community are in denial, they need to deal with it. however, it's my understanding that the students were muzzled by the fbi. can't we just assume that everyone in the club was drunk to some degree and take it from there?

[Dan]

Thanks, concerned - I appreciate that. I think it's perhaps the best and perhaps only way we can salvage anything from this tragedy.

And hand wringer, if you "get" web logging, then simply link the post on your web log and call the attention to it you seem to feel it deserves. It's there. And if isn't where "you" want it to be ... suppose you can always continue to wring your hands. And next time you write to the NYTimes or some such and complain because they bury a retraction, or some quick snippet that accurately portrays an event they can't over-editorialize in their reporting, CC me. Maybe I'll put it up on the web log ... it'll probably be news. ; )

[Dan]

elan,

I honestly don't think it's that simple. If something tragic happened, its possible that events in the club hold the context to that. It could go to the difference between a willful murder, an accidental killing, or simply an accidental death compounded by a criminal conspiracy to cover it up.

Granted, if the boys would simply tell the truth, this might all go away. But even if they do, or have to authorities, it might take more than simply saying all the kids were drunk to some degree to determine the credibility of a potential truth.

[Concerned]

Dan~
I do not get the last part:
"it might take more than simply saying all the kids were drunk to some degree to determine the credibility of a potential truth." Can you explain?

[TheFunkyBunch]

"If something tragic happened, its possible that events in the club hold the context to that."

Dan, when I read that my whole body shivered with goosebumps. You have just encapsulated this whole case into one sentence. Bravissimo!

[elan]

that is true dan, and you know more than i do. if the mb students can talk about the case, they need to step up.

[Concerned]

I am missing something here. Maybe, I've been thinking beyond MB group. They weren't the last seen with her,; am I correct?

[beebee]

wait till jordan comes to us to school fbi arrest him on suspion of murder and kidnapping...the question him for 2 days and he sing about all he know... by that time the arubian start killing each other to silence them selves...a hole government and judial system disappears in only weeks...

so jordan u going to come to school in the usa...better yet go enroll at bama state...should could cut down you bull or fbi will have to hear...

[Dan]

Concerned,

To be direct, if everyone - Natalee, Joran, et al were all on the same page and doing the same things, no one person more than anyone else is complicit in her death - it would be a simple, albeit tragic accidental OD in that case and Joran and co would only be guilty of a cover up because they feared prosecution on drug and related charges for something for which they, no more than any other involved, including Natalee are to blame.

On the other hand, if taking some X and or sniffing some cocaine is out of character with previous behavior exhibited by some in the MB crowd on that particular night, specifically Natalee, then it points more to a drug slipped into her drink.

I'm not interested in any details from C&C that night because they may be sensational ... but because without that context, it is more difficult to assign valid guilt as ragdrs a potential crime.

I do know, via MB residents and some trip attendees that "responsible" doesn't define the behavior of some in the group that night ... just as it didn't define more than enough of my own behavior when I was 17/18. I'm not interested in judging. But I'm not interested in pretending this was a girl scout jamboree "when" it possibly clouds the facts needed to establish the relative guilt of one indivudal in what some are calling a murder, either.

[Concerned]

Thanks, Dan. I was feeling a little stupid.
I agree: it's not about judging. I too was not angel at 17/18.
My parents did not know what I did with my friends. I too was a very good student.
Today I am a teacher and have recently earned an M.A.I.T. Somehow I survived the growth years.. but by the grace of God go I ...

[hrithik roshan]

That poor girl is dead.
Her body has been vanished.
Joran en Bros knows exactly what happened to her.
They are tough boys and they have been backed up in the beginning very wel by Daddy Sloot. That's why you can read so much confidence out of the faces of those boys. As long as one of those boys don't confess, we will never know what exactly has happened to NH. Sorry, but she's dead, no doubt about it.

[wreck]

I posted this on Forum 51. It explains my feelings on THIS topic:
My parents instilled a sense of morals and values in me when I was young. When I turned 18 (the drinking then) they realized that I was the one that had to then go and make my own decisions of right or wrong; and in turn, bear the consequences of my actions. Did I make some unwise choices? YES! I learned from them and moved on. Natalee apppears to be raised right. Her parents let her go discover the world. Did Natalee make any poor decisions? Probably. Should Natalee's decisions (or her parents') mitigate her disappearance? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Blame only the CRIMINALS that preyed upon her.

Posted by: wreck | July 16, 2005 02:03 PM

[Concerned]

You put it beautifully, wreck. It is resounding the truth.

[hopefulcanadian]

What does everyone here now think about the Kalpoe brothers??? Do you still think they are guilty; or just dropped Natalee and Joran off to the beach for some "private time" as they have said...?

[Concerned]

The jury's out on the Kalpoes; not enough info. in my book.

[Troup]

Knowing what you now know about Aruba, will you be letting your 18 year old daughter go there on her graduation trip next year?

[bhammom]

I am inclined to believe something along the lines that Tim Miller alluded to in an interview. The boys may indeed not know where the body has been moved to.
Someone hid the body too well.

[Jan]

Has anyone thought that the stae of drunkeness all around might be one of the problems with this case. Certainly the MB teens I strongly believe were not just drinking responsibly (I have no problem nor do I blame them) but when you are celebrating and you are 18 responsiblity on a senior trip is not exactly where your head is - so I believe they were for the most drinking to excess - which could be why they have not come forward, it could be why they can not offer much in the way of true help and it could be why they watched one of their own leave the group with the 3 Arubans. On the other hand - has anyone thought that the state of drunkeness of Joran might be one of the reasons his story has changed and is not very solid - let us assume for the sake of arugument that his only guilt is being the last one with Natalee - but his drunken state might not be to clear on details either. I know that ever taking Joran's side here is against all the rules - but I like to have proof beyond a doubt when I condemm a person - and just wonder if Joran and the MB teens are under the influence of way to much liquor to be helpful at all!!

[magenta]

Does anyone know for sure what college JVDS got a scholarship for & where he was planning to go?
I heard Flagler in St Augustine & just last night I read University of Central Florida...

Just the thought is a nightmare for this mother of an 18 year old blonde hair blue eyed daughter who's attending UCF this fall.

[tideroller]

Jan - This was a "fling" so to speak for the MBHS kids. They were "legal" there and not at home so some of them may have been trying to crowd more into the 5 days that they were there. Joran was a regular at the bars. Joran is big. 6'5", so presumably his size would allow him to "handle his liquor" better. Also, the kids may have been partying most of the day, I'm not too sure on just what Joran had been doing all day. I do believe he was at the Casino earlier where he met Natalee and said he wasn't going to CnC. He was at CnC a much shorter period of time, I believe. Therefore, no, I do not believe that he was "out of it". I think he well knew what he was doing and that the "carving out" was planned and well executed. It was what happened later that went wrong. I believe it was his fault.