Aruba Update

One of the issues that is so frustrating about this case is all of the misinformation. I saw one web site recently claim the land fill witness went to the police and was ignored. Unfortunately, if you simply take the spin from Aruba and run with it, it causes more confusion, than anything else.

I do know that the FBI had searched the land fill on at least one occasion. There is certainly nothing wrong with additional, and hopefully more thorough searching - but it needs to be based upon information - and not hyperbole.

In addition to the pond, Trump said authorities are searching a landfill for the third time since a witness came forward shortly after Holloway disappeared.

The witness claimed he saw more than one person dump into the landfill something he believes could have been a covered body, CNN has learned from sources briefed on the investigation. The witness also gave police a license tag number that reportedly belonged to a white pickup truck.

Police tell CNN that a tag check found that the vehicle was not at the landfill at or around the time the witness claimed. About 11 members of Equusearch, a Dickinson, Texas-based volunteer group that specializes in searches, also combed through the landfill Saturday.

Spokesman Kevin O'Brien said the search was going "slow, very slow, with lots and lots of digging in pretty unpleasant conditions." O'Brien said three cadaver dogs hit on specific areas within the landfill early Saturday, but a physical search located three containers of medical waste instead.

UPDATE: Reader AK was kind enough to transcribe  the following from Jossy Mansur's recent appearance on On The Record - he is discussing witnesses as regards the landfill.

On The Record, Fri, 7-29

Jossy Mansur interviewed by Martha McCallum on Greta's On TheRecord Fri, 7-29:

(Martha McCallum substituting - asking questions): ... Martha: What did the witness say?

Jossy: I'll tell you exactly what he said. He told us that he saw a pickup with three men enter the dump. He saw 2 of the men get off, pick up a black garbage, plastic bag. Two of the men carried it. Some kind of blond hair fell from the bag, in other words, stuck out from the back. They placed this bag over where there was a lot of rubble, bags. And then they picked up a small baby pool, you know those plastic pools that babies bath in. And then they put it over that bag that they put over there. Now this afternoon it so happens that they did find that item of interest, which is that pool. And tomorrow they're going to dig very deep in there to find out if this guy is telling the truth. If he is telling the truth then they must find that bag that he said that he saw those people place there.

Martha : Why didn't this person come forward sooner with story?

Jossy: Because everybody here is scared of this story. This story has gone totally out of proportion. It has become high profile, especially in the US. And people don't normally want to be involved in anything that smells of anything like a crime, or a murder, or whatever; because there's a lot of personal implications for them -- to be interrogated by the police, held there for hours, to be taken to court and act as witness. So it is very hard for people who don't have any kind of experience with this sort of thing to just come forward and say what they saw. But this story has been going around for some time... tomorrow we will find out more.

Martha : Tell us more about this pool... It seems like if they covered it up with that they would have gotten to a body fairly quickly after they uncovered that pool. Jossy: Not necessarily -- because as the weeks passed much other rubble has been thrown on top of it and the tractors have been pushing everything together. So that wouldn't be necessarily true.... And they have to be looking in the coming 2-3 days all around this pool that they found today.... It's a time consuming, a physical job. They have to look at everything. It is a Titanic job.

Martha : How much impact does this reward money have on these witnesses coming forward now? ... A million dollar reward?

Jossy: As far as I'm concerned, none. Because these witnesses, they don't come forward when these rewards were posted. They've been around quite some time before that.

Martha : Do these witnesses know each other at all.

Jossy: Absolutely not. Then you have the other witness that says that by the Holiday Inn he saw practically the same thing. He saw a white PU with 3 male occupants and that they were dragging some kind of a body, of a lady, and put it in the back of that white PU. And then drive away.... But these people don't know each other. They are very far apart. And they both seem to see the same PU with the same three characters in there.

Martha: But doesn't it seem curious to you that they would come forward in a similar span of time to say that they saw these similar things?

Jossy: I don't know about the span of time or how they are related to each other time wise. What I do know is at least the one witness at the landfill is a pretty serious witness. I think that the police have some kind of trust in his reliability as they wouldn't be spending all of this time, effort and money going so totally over every single heap of garbage that they can find there.

Martha : How specifically do they identify the people they saw.

Jossy: ...They don't identify the three. I didn't hear anything about that. They identified another man that was standing outside of the cyclone fence. But I would hesitate to even mention his name because unless we have some kind of proof - that we will get in the next two days -- it wouldn't be fair to anyone to mention names. [My observation as I watched the video at this instant -- a slight smile emerges from the corner of his Jossy's mouth!] END OF INTERVIEW

Comments

[Phantom]

[[[In addition to the pond, Trump said authorities are searching a landfill for the third time since a witness came forward shortly after Holloway disappeared.]]]

Trump?

[luvmycairn]

The Donald is now giving press interviews about Natalee??? whats this about?

[Justice for Natalee]

Why is there no search warrant for the well on the VDS property?

Anybody know?

[stacy]

i saw jeep on the news not truck

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Stacy,
You saw jeep???

What are you referring to. There's been several "jeeps" seen on the news??

[kescah]

If the witness went to the police early on and was ignored, hmmmmm, makes you think of Van Der Straaten again.

[Pearl]

Hi everyone,

This hole bad investigations have one name Jan v/d Straten. I think the US media have to stress to Aruba Goverment to investigate him. Now he's with pension. And the Aruba Goverment have a lot of problem with him before this case, he's not a friend of the goverment. SO, US people pls stress about to investigate him.

[Dan]

AK, I deleted your long comment and moved it to the page - let me know if you want it credited another way. Thanks for your help.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Dan - No prob. :)

[kescah]

Dan, where did you move it to? Thanks.

[Kim]

Maybe if these witnesses had come forward in the beginning the case wouldn't have been as big and scary for them, as Jossy claims? Smells fishy from here!

[k.jeanne]

On Geraldo last night, they said a backhoe dug a very deep hole in the landfill/dump, and they put the body in the hole. So there is another variation on this story. They also said that this witness had come forward in the first few days of the investigation. That he didn't understand WHY they had not looked before because he told had reported it very early in the investigation.

[R]

How long must we be focused on this case to the almost complete exclusion of other missing person cases?

Do Beth and Jug Twitty know, or care, that other people have gone missing and also need coverage?

Do people have any idea how many children went missing since May 30? Why is Natalee Holloway the only one who counts? The only one who had F-16's to search for her. The only one who had the help of multiple countries? The only one for whom people were given official days off to help look for her? The only one whose family is supported and given a voice anytime of the day or night by press and media? The only one with a million dollar reward? The only one whose home videos are shown 24 hours a day to compliment news reports? The only one for whom hundreds of blogs and computer wallpapers have been named for? The only missing person who has caused political implications even though US citizens vanish in other countries all the time?

It will sound trite and maybe stupid, but if you're even planning to go missing, make sure you have beautiful, long blonde hair, are young, white, going into pre-med, have a mom who could run for president and win, and are "outstanding." Otherwise, no one may care if you are found or not. And they just might completely forget about you, or worse, NOT notice you are gone...

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

kescah

Dan moved it up to the top to include it at the end of the Aruba Update
Jossy Mansur interviewed by Martha McCallum on Greta's On TheRecord Fri, 7-29:

-----
PRESS: [hold down] CTRL-^ PG UP

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

I should have typed:

PRESS: [hold down] CTRL-^ HOME

[chance]

Well I think any hope of ever finding our what really happened is pretty much over now. Amazing that such a secret could be kept on a small island with this kind of close media scrutiny. It is simply amazing.

[R]

Then, other than finishing the landfill search there is nothing left to do. I hope we can move on because there are other people who need help. Maybe we can actually bring someone home alive, rather than losing more time focusing on someone who is not. The search has been exhaustive. Whether the investigation was sufficent or not is debatable. But we are where we are now and it is time to move on. The Twittys have gone home; isn't it time we 'all go home' as well?

[clintcarter]

What I recall is that the witness went to the police on June 1st and that LE DID take a look at thge landfill but found nothing (in the one area they were directed to look).

This witness at this LATER date went to Beth and she is behind the recent more thorough activity.

Is this correct? Because it seems Aruban LE had good reason to dismiss this guy initially.

[fonna]

I believe that the dump "witness" came forward and said what he did because IF a body were to be found he would collect the reward.......might as well take a chance as many bodies have been found in a landfill!! I go with the "went to the wrong party theory"

[clintcarter]

R I completely agree with you about the disproportionate attention paid to the pretty and white (oh, and female - the media's not gonna flock for my white blond a**), not that it is misdirected but that more effort should be expended in finding the children of other tribal origins.
A larger problem - it's always the money. So many children disappear it is NOT possible to do the knid of early investigation that increases success. The State is physically incapable of tracking all the missing kids.
So a case like this allows a nation to guage it's child-finding prowess, hopeful that victory will demonstrate some sense of power over an unmanageable condition. Like when we all leap on someone who makes a 'racist' comment, not so eager to change human ways as we are to punish the offender, consider it scourged, and STOP talking about race.

This blog has become much more than Natalee Holloway. A lot of different people communing and discussing. Natalee Holloway is a MYSTERY, and through the thread of this runs a real attempt to solve the puzzle. That is more than enough justification now.

Just make sure you do something positive for the community elsewhere, and join in!

[Cindi in PA]

They claim the dump had been searched several times before this. I do hope they are more thorough this time. Remember how long it took to find Lori Hacking, and they knew early on the monster threw her in a dumpster. The land fill was huge not to mention the days of garbage put there and pushed around by HE.

[R Hater]

R, thanks for your 2 cents worth but shouldn't you be spending your time on another website? This website is intended to discuss the Natalie Holloway disappearance. Why don't you go start one for all the other missing persons in the world and leave this one alone? ...or is it time to go back to work at the local convenience store?

[pamy]

if it turns out that this story of dragging a body to a truck by the HI then other people saw them dumping a body, hair, breasts sticking out of a bag, is true then this was not a perfect crime. it was a messy crime that the polis did not want to solve.

[dave]

No, R, it isn't time we all go home.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

I believe that the dump "witness" came forward and said what he did because IF a body were to be found he would collect the reward.......might as well take a chance as many bodies have been found in a landfill!! I go with the "went to the wrong party theory"

Posted by: fonna |
===============

If you read above transcript, you see the witness made the statements long BEFORE the rewards for information leading to her body were posted. So he couldn't have been motivated by a reward that did not exist at that time, could he?

.....
See TRANSCRIPT above:
Martha : How much impact does this reward money have on these witnesses coming forward now? ... A million dollar reward?

Jossy: As far as I'm concerned, none. Because these witnesses, they don't come forward when these rewards were posted. They've been around quite some time before that.

[RealPotential]

I believe it is rumored that Donald Trump put up the additional monies to bring the reward up to a million for Natalee's return.

It would make sense that the family would keep him informed. It would also make sense that since Dan is reporting on this case, has a HUGE loyal following, and the family and the FBI have come to Dan for potential leads...that Dan Reihl just might be in touch with "The Donald".

Dontcha THINK???

[MBMom2]

R, if it wasn't for this tragis disapperance of Natalee, a lot of other missing people would not be getting the coverage many are getting now. Because of this, more and more cases are being covered. That is one of the first things that Natalee's aunt, Marcia Twitty said, was that it was not just about Natalee, but about all those that are missing. Thank God that Jug and Beth can keep this alive and in the press. They've gone home, but only for a few days. Beth is back here in Mountain Brook to get her son registered for school. And she is even more determined than ever to seek justice for Natalee.

And to the person who asked about the property of Van der Slot not being searched, Tim Miller of Equusearch was on some program last night and said that he himself went to the Van der Slot property and asked permission to search. He was told in no uncertain terms to hit the road. My thought ... if you have nothing to hide, why not let them search your property. Again, hurray for Beth, Jug, Dave, Robin and all the Holloway-Twitty family for keeping this from becoming a cold case. Seek justice and answers for Natalee. My prayers continue with all of them. Dave, thanks, as always, for your excellent reporting!

[Roy]

Hi everyone,

This hole bad investigations have one name Jan v/d Straten. I think the US media have to stress to Aruba Goverment to investigate him. Now he's with pension. And the Aruba Goverment have a lot of problem with him before this case, he's not a friend of the goverment. SO, US people pls stress about to investigate him.

Posted by: Pearl | July 31, 2005 02:39 PM

The fact that JvdS is not a friend of the government only makes him more trustworthy to me.
The government does not like him because he will not let him self be used as a puppy or a puppet. And that is the way it should be. Others are too damn scared to stick to their own professional opinions.
By the way I am no friend of jvdS nor an admirer.

[shonane]

The things these two witnesses saw may have nothing to do with the Natalie Hollaway case.

[pamy]

mbmom2--right on! this whole nat thing has helped bring lots of missing people to the attention of the public. not only that, but we have all learned how to help get a crime kept in the public eye. beth and her family have done all of us a service in teaching us PR for getting attention on a crime and keeping it there and HOPEFULLY GETTING THE CRIME SOLVED AND PROSECUTED!! Maybe a lot of crimes that have happened, are happening, will happen will have friends and family start publisizing the crimes. many of us never knew you could. now we know. of course many poor people do not have the resources and many minorities probably find out that no one will still notice or care. but hopefully things will change and we will all help all people get their crimes solved and prosecuted.

[Sarah #1]

Well I just saw that Beth is going home for now.. bless her heart..

[R]

Look folks, I'm not a jerk. I am not one of those hateful people who are saying things like, "she brought it on herself," and so on! But I feel badly for ALL missing people. Everyone should count. In this case, given what we know, it seems certain that she can't be rescued. But many other missing people can and aren't being searched for. I am especially concerned for missing children.

That is my point. I don't wish to offend.

[blink]

Martha : Tell us more about this pool... It seems like if they covered it up with that they would have gotten to a body fairly quickly after they uncovered that pool. Jossy: Not necessarily -- because as the weeks passed much other rubble has been thrown on top of it and the tractors have been pushing everything together. So that wouldn't be necessarily true.

If the pool was placed on top of the body, and weeks of rubble have covered up the area where the body was placed, would'nt the pool be at the bottom of that rubble.

[dave]

I don't think that it is at all "certain" that she can't be found.

People are interested in other missing persons cases, but a lot of us are focused on this case because it has peaked our interest. Certainly, there are millions of other missing persons cases going on, but, unfortunately, we can't devote all our time and energy into them. So we focus on specific ones, for whatever reason.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

blink

Thr problem is that there is more than ONE "plastic baby pool" at any landfill.
COLOR, MAKE, MODEL??? size? shape? other people throw them away periodically?

Lots of pools - and even PONDS on ARUBA!!!

[NorthAla]

R your not a jerk ? thats your opinion .

[peggy]

Isn't it amazing how the internet has changed our lives????Despite opening the door to many things we need not explore,on the positive side it has shrunk the world.Think about it.In the old days Natalee would never have been part of the global news.I see people that really care on this site.She will not be forgotten and abandoned.Her Mother has access to all kinds of media.It's a good thing,as Martha would say!Must add,I feel so much safer knowing she is wearing an electronic ankle bracelet!!!

[letsbefair]

Jossy is so full of BS, he's fun to watch. Is Van Der Straaten corrupt? Or is he smart enough not to believe in phony witnesses? And for all you conspiracy theorists - you'd better include the FBI and DEA, because they were on this case from day 1 as well.

Start thinking out of the box people.

[RealPotential]

is that a wooden box?

[pamy]

you know i feel bad every time i hear millions are starving in africa. when you see those little emaciated kids with flies all over them, you just want to rush over to africa with your groceries. they say the corruption keeps our money and food from the general populace, it is just making the rich, richer. so what are we to do. i wish i could help all missing people, but i guess we can start with one at a time and this mom and her family seem to be really working hard and we can follow the case because it stays in the news. what other case has so many facts coming forward that you can follow and discuss. what are we to do? contact all these missing people's families and tell them to do what nat's family is doing and we will rally behind them? how do you do that?

[RealPotential]

well.....what the heck does that expression mean anyway?

[RealPotential]

pamy...you have a very good point. I have had several really great ideas as to how to reach out and be of help in SOME way...and every one of the more practical ones seem to be pointing toward fundraising of some kind. But how can you be SURE the money is going where you meant for it to go when you gave it?

[peggy]

I agree.Jossy is so much fun to watch.Also have cracked up over Nuke Aruba's comments.The one about Tito Lacle singing "Help Me Ronda" at C&C's absolutely put me on the floor.A little levity is good,especially in this grave situation.

[letsbefair]

well.....what the heck does that expression mean anyway?

Posted by: RealPotential | July 31, 2005 04:51 PM

Group think - we all know Joran killed Natalee and buried her body, right? Maybe "we're" all wrong.

[RealPotential]

here...I'll even toss out an example: fair bait for anyone who wants to run with it...(and if you want to be really fair, and it takes off, I'll be happy with "Kudo's!"):

"The NAT-PACK"
A belt pack style unisex "purse" that contains all kinds of saftey gadgets and goodies for young people on vacation...mace, condoms, a small First Aid Kit, a prepaid phone card, and pockets for maps...cell phone....etc.

Proceeds go to whatever foundation to help find missing persons...

Any takers????

[RealPotential]

Hey...Dan.... tell the Donald about my idea....K? :D

[Jessie]

Well I see Beth and Jughead were not to concerned about the dump or the pond. They seem to have snuck out of town for home in the dead of night.
Back home in Alabama for an indefinate say, they say.

[iwabwu]

I am a firm believer that no one can do everything, but everyone can do something. I can't save all the starving people around the world (due in part to corruption as mentioned above), but I can donate resources (time, money, groceries, etc.) to help someone locally.

I don't think that Natalee is any less deserving of the help she is getting because she is a caucasion and has blond hair. If Natalee was not a caucasion, and had a mother that was as determined as Beth, I believe she would still get media coverage. The cast of media characters would probably be a little different, but she would get help.

The angle would be something like-

1. white island upper class trying to sweep under carpet because missing girl is non-caucasion

2. main suspects father is a member of island judiciary

3. godfather of main suspect is chief of police

I would still be interested because of the conflict of interest angle (#'s 2 & 3). I don't believe NH's race or ethnic origin would matter. There'd still be conflict of interest in the investigation.

If NH was a non-caucasion, people would still complain about all the media attention this one missing person case was getting.

[pk]

For those of us that have been around the block a couple times remember when your parents told you to always keep a dime hidden so you could call home? Times have changed so much - I never thought I would be thinking this way. LOL

I like your idea for the "The NAT-PACK" I think it would be a perfect added to all graduation presents.

I sure hope that the last of the media does not leave the island now that Beth had taken a much deserved break.

I keep praying that Dave is not the one to find Natalee in the dump if she is there. I think that would be more than any father could take.

[AkekoaHoAlethia]

Some good information here puts a wider - or more focused - perspective on the whole picture of ARUBA / joran

Most has been discussed here but this kind of has it summed up.

Many Thanks for your information at http://spaces.msn.com/members/AbleAdvocateDAN/