Will Natalee Holloway Remain An Unanswered Question?

I came upon this site tonight and found myself hoping that, unlike perhaps the other pictures, one day Natalee's will be taken down. And in reality, seeing the site should stop the talk of Aruba being an island of missing people, let alone young women. The site doesn't give the impression that this is a major problem there at all.

But that, like some facts in this case, and even Natalee herself, remain but open questions. Reader DMorgan sent along some questions tonight that got me thinking about that issue. The first question listed below is from D ... the rest are ones I have been thinking about.

I don't mean to imply that some of them aren't being asked, or haven't been answered by the right people. And perhaps a difference in legal systems is causing more distress than it should in American followers of the case, as we aren't acustomed to the way the Dutch handle their investigations. But, as mentioned here, there is also at least some fair criticism to be made of what we've seen so far. See second half of post below.

So, here are some of D's and my questions ... if you have your own, feel free to leave in the comments section.

Cell phone?  Every high school senior has a cell phone. What's up with her cell phone records?

D didn't mention the boy's cell phone records from the night in question - what do they reveal, if anything?

The last known sighting of the three boys was approximately 1AM when they left Carlos and Charlies. When is the first time each can clearly account for his time after that. I've heard nothing as to when they showed up again. The timeline has to be reduced from 1AM to plane boarding time the next day.

If a Fox report is true, they are not conducting DNA tests on the fluid found in the car. If true, that's impossible for me to comprehend unless the fluid has been matched to one of the boys. If organic, it's composition can be identified. If not, what was it?

Are any of the boys marked by scratches, cuts, etc? Anything normally associated with a struggle?

What other trace evidence has the car given up? Hair or fiber associated with Natalee? We know she was in the car, surely there would be something. Too much could suggest a struggle ... too little a thorough cleaning.

Did no one attempt to wake Natalee for the flight, or seek her out? Her bags were in her hotel room and I can't believe anyone expected her to go from CandC to wherever, then directly to the airport.

Given that if there was a dumping of a body off the beaten path, or near the water - the tires of the vehicle might have held some material - sand, dirt, etc...which could identify a particular part of the island that was visited recently by a driver of the car. Yet, the car was allowed to remain unimpounded for days ... was this investigation botched from the start and now doomed without a confession?

Precisely how much alcohol was consumed at CandC by all involved that night? Were there bills, recollections from employees beyond the vague "drank a lot" talk we've heard? Have the boys been given drug tests, given that some remain in the bloodstream for a long time?

If the familes of the suspects believe in their sons innocence, why haven't a one of them, so far as I know, come forward to express their sadness at these seemingly tragic events? Van der Sloot's parents particularly have been mum - the Father seems not to exist and the Mother only has spoken of her son. Does she feel nothing for Natalee's family? And if so, why not at least release a statement if she really feels her son is innocent in all this? Or have I missed it? Perhaps I did.

How is it that this "popular" boy Joran, a well-known "high school" student was apparently allowed to move in and around the islands bars and casinos like an adult?

Those are just some of my questions ... I hope the authorities have more and even better ones for which they are seeking answers. Feel free to leave your own in the comments section, if you'd like.

This post is also available at Blogger News Network.

Comments

[L]

Your e-mail is excellent. Another thought take a rubber doll fill it about half full of water to mimic a human body. Take it to the north end of the island and find out if it floats off or comes back to shore.

[L]

Your e-mail is excellent. Another thought take a rubber doll fill it about half full of water to mimic a human body. Take it to the north end of the island and find out if it floats off or comes back to shore.

[lawbster]

you raise a lot of good points many of which have been dealt with but only in a superficial way by posting by people who were supposedly on the trip. i am hoping that at least the local birmingham police have statements of all involved while memories are still fresh.

i think mrs. holloway twitty's right. the three know what happened and what they did. i also am afraid that one of your posters who says that vdSloot's father is stalling thing may be correct.

hasibokos is saying this morning that two experts from Holland arrived yesterday. the arubans would not say what the area of expertise is as it would lead to logical conclusions about where the investigation is...so what could they be - polygraph experts? psychologists? legal?

[Rick]

Dan -

All good questions. Hanging out on the Scared Monkeys website for the past couple days, and trying to keep abreast of things, I can answer some of the questions, but the sourcing is from people who claim to be Natalee's classmates and her friends and folks who claim to be Aruba natives. The info was posted on the Scared Monkeys boards though, and the people I'm paraphrasing from seem very, very credible and have provided a great deal of detail that only someone who was close to the family and area would know.

Anyway - the cell phone - Natalee apparently did have a cell phone but it didn't work in Aruba and she therefore didn't carry it with her.

Her friends assumed she was out partying the night before and missed her flight. They were aware she didn't make the flight on the way home but didn't start to worry until hours later...

I've also read that the three boys saw a friend on the way out to the lighthouse and that they stopped to say hello. So, this friend would presumably confirm their timeline. Natalee's friends said she didn't seem wasted at C&C as they all left, but her eyes seemed heavy and not in a way any of them remember seeing before.

Since the fluid in the car wasn't blood, testing of it as saliva, semen, etc., won't necessarily reveal anything that we don't know - Everyone agrees that Natalee was in the car. Still, it will be interesting to see what the fluid is, and whether it's related in any way... But, the car had been out of the hands of police for many days, and the two brothers' family owned a car leasing agency, so one would think the car could easily have been cleaned from top to bottom during that time..

Joran was said to be 'hard, cold, arrogant' when he spoke to the Holloways at their request. I am certain that his father and the attorneys for all three men made sure they were coached over and over and over again, driving home the point that if they are taken into custody and stick to their story, then they'd walk - if not, they'd spend at least the next 15 years in prison. So, I do believe the investigation was botched from the start - the three boys should have been professionally interrogated and not released - the car should have been impounded, cell phone records seized, etc..

We know Joran was very concerned with protecting his image, and immediately removed his Tickle.com and MSN.com websites (where he displayed images of himself posed with women, with alcohol and money - there was even a photo of him holding a belt which was wrapped around the neck of a shirtless boy who appeared to be in pain as Joran grinned into the camera.

Other details on the sites showed him to be a fan of misogynistic rap music, posting three different song links, including "Candy Shop" - a song about a woman performing oral sex on the narrator as he degrades her. He also listed his hobbies as hooking up with women (or words to that effect.)

We also know from FOX and DIARIO newspaper in Aruba, that Joran was dealing with "anger management problems" - which tells me he was involved in some serious incidents which required some professional intervention. We found out today from the FOX newscast you blasted in your blog, that Joran threw another boy through a plate glass window. That he was a bully in school, and was drinking and gambling and driving at an age where those activities are illegal in Aruba. (He was breaking the law repeatedly.)

As for his mother - compare her reaction to that of the accused guards. The mother of one of the accused guards was in tears, hysterically protesting her son's innocence. Joran's mother flatly and matter-of-factly stated that Joran would have no reason to commit this crime, that he was a good student.... The father has been absent.

I don't think it would be too much of a strech to assume that this boy, who was obsessed with portraying a masculine image to his friends via gambling, boozing, womanizing, fighting - would react violently if rejected by a girl (Natalee) in the presence of his two friends in the middle of the night after drinking heavily. In fact, I think that's the most plausible explanation given all we know and all of the so-called "gossip" that's been leaking about Joran and his family and friends and what he himself has posted on his own websites - which he has since pulled down.

I do hope there will be a resolution to this, but I would bet anything that the three in custody are merely re-chanting the mantra that their attorneys told them they'd need to stick to in order to have any chance at freedom.

[Rick]

If the boys threw the body in the ocean at a remote part of the island, the fish would have devoured it - the buoyancy and currents wouldn't have made much of a difference...

[Steph]

Rick: I think the MSN account etc was not taken offline by Joran. Microsoft is known to take offline spaces with lots of vulgar language. There were enough brainless dipshits who posted 'not-so-nice' things in there.

Oh, and about the drinking at the age of 17 in bars: I don't know about Aruba, but this is _not_at_all_ uncommon in the Netherlands. In fact, dinking beer is legal at the age of 16 in NL.

I really hope Natalee will be found alive. Most of all for her parents, but also so that this case may be a lesson for the internet community. I've read too much filth the last days from people who jump to conclusions without rational backup. I can accept this from desperate parents. Not from unrelated outsiders. Just let the Aruban authorities do their job.

[Rick]

Steph -

I think it was Joran who took down the pages.

IIRC, Dan - the webmaster of this site- received a request from someone claiming to be Joran who requested that his image be removed from *this* site. Again, IIRC - Dan checked the IP address and it did come from Aruba. Same time as the Tickle.com and MSN.com sites were erased...

AFAIK, the legal drinking age in Aruba is 18, and Joran - the son of a judge - was illegally drinking, playing in casinos and driving - according to many different sources. While that's not an indictment of the kid - I'm sure lots of kids do that - it's part of the picture one gets of a privileged kid who has no discipline, no boundaries - and given his anger issues (I neglected to mention the shoving match between Joran's and Natalee's friends prior to her disappearance at the casino) - it paints a disturbing picture of the kid who was last seen with Natalee.

Natalee's own mother and stepfather are quoted in the latest AP news story and yesterday on Geraldo as being sure he's lying and that they're sure the three know the fate of their daughter.

The Aruban authorities have done their job - they released the three who were last seen with Natalee and let them get 'lawyered up' - Unless there's a miraculous forensic discovery, I think Aruba has munged this case.

[sus]

Rick you are presenting a really subjective view on the personality of this boy.

You say he is breaking the law all the time, but Aruba is not enforcing this rules and drinking is allowed at 16 (liquor is not).

About that picture on his website with him holding a belt which was wrapped around the neck of a boy, it's obviously fake and that boy does not look like he is in pain. You're making a big deal out of these small things, same for the rapmusic.

I know FOX is trying to blind you with one sided news, but please try to be a little objective and not so easy influenced.

[Rick]

Sus -

I am looking at the entire picture.

I don't know of many 17 year olds who throw others through plate glass windows. Who are considered bullies in school, who pick up women in casinos and bars, who drink and stay out until all hours of the night, and who post websites of themselves posed with women, alcohol, money and pseudo-masochistic images. I also dont know any 17 year olds being treated for "anger management problems."

Each item itself isn't a sign of guilt, but taken together, the image one gets of Joran is that of a maladjusted kid with a personality disorder.

That he was cold, arrogant and hard to Natalee's parents also says something about his personality. I think a normal reaction would be to proclaim one's innocence - repeatedly and emotionally - and to empathise and sympathise with the parents. Instead they got a 'screw off' vibe from him and felt he was lying.

FOX isn't blinding me, Sus. The information came from Joran himself, Natalee's friends, DIARIO newspaper, the parents of Joran's classmates - as well as Fox, CNN and the net.

If you can't see that this is clearly a problem child, then I'm afraid that you're the one operating blindly.

[Steph]

Rick -

'I don't know of many 17 year olds [...]. Who are considered bullies in school, who pick up women in casinos and bars, who drink and stay out until all hours of the night, and who post websites of themselves posed with women, alcohol, money and pseudo-masochistic images.'

So, under what stone have you been living, say, the last 20 years? I increasingly get the feeling that things in Aruba are quite like they are in Holland. Except for the glass accident, the picture you present of Joran does not surprise me at all. In fact, drinking, picking up girls and partying all night at the age of 17 is very normal. I would go as far as saying that in NL kids who don't can be considered outsiders. As for the websites: have a look at sites like www.cu2.nl. We have plenty of them in NL, and half of the teenagers has suchs a brainless website with content as you paraphrased. Now, I want to ask you: Do you think half of the Dutch population is a potential killer?

I know this is a conservative blog, but I hope I'm allowed to say this: try watching less FOX, and more liberal news (whatever the name of those stations may be in the U.S.).

[sus]

I still think you are way too early with your conclusions about his personality disorder.
That you don't know any 17 year old that goes out and picks up women is probably because you are living in a really protected/conservative environment. In most places having sex and going out are normal things to do for 17 year olds. Don't impose your american/religious values on others.

He may not have been the nicest kid in school, but being a criminal is something way different.

Ofcourse Natalee's parents think he is lying. They are waiting for two weeks now, they are in complete despair, they want a suspect (which I don't blame them for at all, they are just not the most objective sources).

[Rick]

Steph and Sus -

If the pair of you believe that a boy, apparently obsessed with his macho image, who is known to have thrown another human being through a glass window and who was said to have been treated for personality disorders (anger management issues), and who is the last human being to have been confirmed to have been with a woman who is now missing - is not almost certainly her killer or responsible in some way for her disappearance, then the pair of you are delusional.

Natalee's parents think he's lying. Because they SPOKE to him. Because they witnessed his reaction and response, which you ignore completely, and which I believe is consistent with guilt, not innocence. They also believe the two guards are innocent and have called for their immediate release. So much for your "they are in despair, therefore they want a suspect to blame" theory...

There is a world of difference between throwing a person through a window and being treated for anger management problems as reported by DIARIO and "not being a nice kid."

And yes, I know millions of people listen to 50 cent and millions of kids pose with girlfriends on websites and call themselves "pimps" and drink and party all night long, and have parents who cannot or won't discipline them, but those are simply additional aspects of Joran's personality and the image he chose to share with his friends on the internet. It shows what is important to him - booze, women, misogynistic music, violence, flashing make-believe gang signs.. The boy was clearly obsessed with his heterosexual/macho image - every item without exception he posted on two websites supported that image.

[sus]

I did not say that he is not the killer or responsible for her disappearance. They only thing that I would like to emphasize is that there is NO PROVE yet.
He is innocent until proven guilty.
Therefore I don't like your speculations about his personality disorder and links between having sex and going out and crime.

Lets make clear that I also want the truth about this disappearance and if he is guilty he should be punished.

[sus]

At first you don't know many kids like this and then you know millions, kind of strange....

[Rick]

I never claimed to know whether anyone was guilty or innocent. I'm not a judge nor juror.

I'm here to discuss the case and present what is known or rumored to be known and share opinions and draw conclusions. Mine (and your) feelings don't convict anyone.

Having said that, it seems to me that without any additional information, Joran is almost certainly the guilty party.

And regarding your last comment, no, I don't know any 17-year olds who toss others through windows, and have all the other characteristics I mentioned. If you want to pick at one item like rap music or website images to disprove my conclusions, have fun.

[Steph]

Rick,

'I never claimed to know whether anyone was guilty or innocent. I'm not a judge nor juror.'
right...
'... almost certainly her killer or responsible in some way for her disappearance, then the pair of you are delusional.'

I explicitly left out the glass accident and the personality disorder when I was talking about 'normal behaviour of a 17 year old', because I have to agree with you that those things are not normal.
However, if that, along with the statement of the parents is enough for you to draw the conclusion that Joran is the murderer, then I'm glad you did not study to be a judge. What a poor job you would've done.

[Rick]

Well Steph,

If the last person to be seen with Natalee was a kid who throws people through windows, who had a fight with Natalee's friends the previous night, who behaves erratically when questioned by Natalee's parents, who is a known thief, said to steal from friends, who has no boundaries or limits imposed by his parents - is not the likely candidate for this homicide - then you can call me a 'poor judge' all you like.

Funny you call his throwing a boy through the window the 'glass accident.' Yes, "oops, I accidentally pushed a human being through plate glass, potentially causing his death."

Funny, I bet that's what his defense is going to say when he's on trial - it was an "accident".

[Steph]

No matter how likely he is the candidate for this homocide, it is not upon you or anybody else but the judge to make the actual judgement about this.

As for the 'glass accident': In my life I have seen more occasions where a person was pushed against an object by accedent than it happened on purpose. With FOX being the only one to report about this, and supposing that Joran indeed has a problem controlling his temper, we cannot be sure that this was on purpose. Hence, and accident.

That's the difference between you and me: I'd like not to judge people and events based on rumours.

Oh well, let's hope this thing gets cleared up asap. Then we'll know if he did it, and all this speculation can stop.
I'll stop replying for now. Need to do some OpenGL coding.

[sus]

Yes you are a poor judge, its not even sure she is murdered!!! A judge would have based his insinuations on facts.

[Rick]

Steph,

First of all, the "glass accident" as you call it was reported by a classmate's mother. She didn't call it an "accident" she said Joran pushed her child through a window when he was angry. You, a person with no first hand knowledge of that event, are the only one calling it an accident. And then telling me I'm misjudging situations..

FOX is not the only outlet reporting on this. DIARIO in Aruba broke the story that Joran was a problem child who was dealing with anger management issues.

The difference between you and me is not that you don't judge people based on rumors - it seems you make up your mind without considering the facts. Witness your calling Joran's alleged pushing of a person through a window an 'accident' - you are the only one who has used that word.

And if I'm a poor judge, Sus, then you should proably start referring to Aruba's judges with the same phrase, as they are keeping Joran in custody on SUSPICION OF MURDER. I guess they too are "poor judges"...

I'm glad you two aren't running the courts where I live. There'd be a lot of homicidal maniacs running loose because you'd believe their guns "accidentally went off"...

[sus]

And I'm glad I'm not living in a country like yours, with way too many innocent people being executed for murders they didn't commit.

[Steph]

Rick, English is not my native language. 'Incident' would be a better word than 'accident'. Nevertheless, do you consider the mother of a son who was pushed through a window a reliable source? I would call her just as reliable as when Joran would say that was an accident. But enough about that. This is leading nowhere.

About the judging stuff, it is the job of the judges to keep someone in custody in suspicion of something, because otherwise the boys cannot be held captive.

As for your last sentence: I am glad I'm not living in the U.S. I put a lot more faith in the Dutch law system than in the US's.

[Rick]

Since you have such an open mind, it's brilliant of you to indict the entire country of America for executing innocent people. How many of these cases have you reviewed?

For your information, in our country of 300 million people, there have been less than 1000 executions since 1976. Do the math. All were convicted by juries, had automatic and numerous other appeals by a variety of judges.

And where are you living, Sus? Holland? Be sure not to write a book that Muslims object to.

I love "open minded" people like you who'll jump down the throats of other people for expressing and opinion based on facts, but who will make blank statements about a nation and its legal system without benefit of any information, apart from what your professors might tell you.

[Rick]

I'm glad youre so proud of your nation, Steph. And so willing to complain about the United States justice system without knowing anything about it.

Perhaps you'd like to discuss the rampant racism in Holland and how effective your law enforcement and justice system has been in combatting that problem?

In our nation of 300 million, NOTHING EVEN CLOSE to what's happening in Holland goes on here.

Might be a wonderful place to live - unless youre a Jew, writing a book that Muslims object to, in the stands at a football match.. There are more racist events in Holland than anywhere else in Europe and on a per capita basis, your contry dwarfs the US in racial attacks.

Congratulations on a wonderful criminal justice system that is doing such a fine job...

[sus]

Yeah I'm Dutch too (and couldn't agree more with the other one).

I'm not writing a book, als not a movie if thats the one you referring to. Although I have no clue what this has to do with subject.

[sus]

Do you have any numbers to state your 'most racist events on a per capita basis' with?

[Rick]

Sus - you made a blanket statement claiming the US had some inferior justice system that routinely executed innocent people. Usually the next part of that statement is that it's a racist system that preferentially executes blacks and hispanics over whites. I'm surprised you haven't "gone there" yet...

That you preferred to live in your presumably safer, open-minded country, where free speech and due process are everything and where your court system is more effective than ours.

And I am pointing out to you how foolish that is.

Your country is the most racist in Europe, old timers are fleeing the country in droves, your legal system can do nothing to stop the tide of anti-semitism and racism - but here you are telling Americans how unfair our justice system is...

And I'm glad to know you're not writing a book or movie that will upset Muslims. In Holland you'd then likely have an "accident" as your pal likes to call things.

[sus]

By the way, when talking about racism, missed all the comments by Americans on this blog en Joran's site when two Arubans were arrested?

Those people were also way to early with drawing their conclusions, just like you.

[sus]

I remember an 'accident' in the States too that after upsetting muslims.. But I already told you that I don't know what this has to do with Natalee.

About me not saying anything about a system that preferentially executes blacks, I thought it would not be really new because of your earlier linking between listening to the Candy Shop and crime......

[Rick]

Sus -

That's so wonderful that you prefer your Dutch legal system to ours. Your opinion isn't shared by one of your prominent politicians who fled to the United States for his own safety:

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/367

Enjoy learning more about Holland and the effective criminal justice system and your tolerant society before you condemn ours, please:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~afa/alert/engels/sl2_2004.html

You have a 92% chance of avoiding the police and judges in Holland if you commit a hate crime...

Another story:

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=64&story_id=85

A lovely story here:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-22.htm

Here's info about your skinheads:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/skinhead-international/skins-holland.html

[Rick]

Ah Sus,

It's become clear you read words and interpret them to mean whatever you wish.

Pushing another human being through a window is an 'accident' even though the pusher has documented anger problems and the victim's mother called it intentional. But, you know best.

I mentioned a misogynistic song that Joran published along with numerous other items as well as published reports to share my considered opinion of his personality. You choose to read that as an indictment of all rap fans as homicidal maniacs.

Perhaps we are having a language problem, Sus. You seem incapable of understanding what I'm writing. Or more likely, you just want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the obvious.

[sus]

Ah nice job Rick, lot of articles from highly unreliable sources; an ultra left acitivists organisations and jewish organisations.

I didn't say that our system is perfect, I said its better than yours.

I think the Dutch people are indeed open-minded and tolerant, but your articles are not about people with Dutch origins so they are not representative. You obviously have no idea of the situation in the Netherlands and the politician that you mentioned is not prominent at all. I hope she stays in the US.

[Steph]

I really love the last quoted article.

'After a period of dormancy, the Skinhead movement in the Netherlands has undergone a revival in the last two years. Experts there put the number of Skinheads today at 300 to 600.'

Yeah, we're all racists.

[Rick]

Yes, Sus.. If she stays in the US, she's much less likely to have to "watch her back" when she rides her bicycle in the street.

And very interesting your comment - because information comes from a "jewish organization" you label it as "highly unreliable."

How very revealing.

Yep, those crazy Zionists are at it again, eh Sus? Making up all kinds of crazy statistics and probably bombing their own synagogues.

With each post we learn more about you.

Fascinating.

[Rick]

If the Dutch consider themselves 'tolerant' does that mean they are not racist?

The number of racist incidences and violent attacks have risen considerably in the Netherlands since 11 September, according to the Rotterdam-based National Bureau Against Racist Discrimination (LBR), including several 'serious' incidents directly linked to the US terrorist attacks.

A mosque in Vlissingen and school in Nymegen were burned to the ground shortly after the attacks.

A man of Turkish decent was severely beaten by two Dutch men in Appeldorn. The accused men then got into their car, ran over the man they had just beaten leaving him for dead. The Turkish man survived but he suffered serious physical injuries. Witnesses heard the Dutch men shout 'one less Muslim' as they pummelled over him with their car.

According to the LBR there have been more incidents of racist violence in the Netherlands since 11 September than any other western European country.

[sus]

I know the concept of conflicting interest is not considered as a big deal in the US (fox and Bush) but over here it is. Therefore jewish organisations are a subjective source of information just like ultra left organisations. Quite logical isn't it?

[Rick]

Yes, Sus -

Youre so right! One's religion naturally causes them to do studies and cite statistics which are certainly lies. Dismiss them immediately because of their religious beliefs... and ignore the content of the message.

Bad Jews! If only they'd leave Holland once and for all!

You've been well trained!

Some more fun reading:

http://islamonline.net/English/News/2005-04/05/article05.shtml

[sus]

I thought i was being accused of not having decent knowledge about your knowledge. I don't think I have to explain the meaning of the word incident to you?
On the basis of two incidents you are making generalisations about the dutch people not being openminded or tolerant. Sure...

'In the weeks after 9/11, the FBI counted ca. 350 brutal attacks on Muslims, Arabs or people who looked like Muslim or Arab' http://www.acgusa.org/muslims.htm

And about Skins in Holland, how many members does the Klan still have (and it's only 1 racist organisations).

Rednecks accusing Dutch of being racists....

[sus]

That skinheads articles are really amusing, but it's a group that accounts for not even 0.001% of the Dutch population.

But you probably think that there are only a few hundred people living here.

[Rick]

LOL!

First you tell me that all Jews in Holland offer unreliable information, because they are Jewish... dismiss entirely the LBR's report that there are more racist violence in Holland than anywhere else in Europe - and then call all Americans "Rednecks" when you're confronted with that information.

I love how tolerant you are!!!

Hey everyone, 300 million of us are rednecks! We routinely execute innocent people! This Dutch message board poster thinks our legal system is crap!

You're entitled to your opinion, Sus, but the mass exit of your fellow countrymen from Holland to other countries in Europe and to the US tells me you're not living in the open-minded and tolerant country you like to imagine.

And I didnt get that information from the Jewish press, so you don't have to worry about its reliability.

Hey, wanna go throw rocks at Anne Frank's house?

[sus]

What mass exit? your arguments are getting better and better.

You were the one that brought up the racism issue, I just think its a waste of time for Americans to worry about the few racism events in the Netherlands. You have enough to deal with.

[Rick]

What mass exit?

You should listen to your own media:

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/05/a_dutch_exodus.shtml

Or maybe that came from one of those Jewish people and therefore is false...

[sus]

This hasn't been in any of the Dutch newspaper or on Dutch tv.

In the orginal article I have read that people the most important reason for people to leave is lack of space because there are too many people living here, which is true.

Taxes are also really high here and progressive, which explains why some well educated people are leaving.

The article also indicates that some people where looking for emigration possibilities after the murder on van Gogh and only a small fraction of them actually left.

[Nan]

I agree with what has been written. I actually saw Joran's website before it was taken down and scrolled through a lot of it. His whole identity appeared to be wrapped up in his sexuality. I agree with Rick that if Natalee stopped short of having sex with him because of her values and IN FRONT of his friends that this would have been a tremendous rejection for him. Since he also had anger problems and under the influence of alcohol he probably did react violently to her or possibly raped her and then reacted to her. Also if her eyes looked heavy she may have been drugged too. I have believed from the start that the three were involved after seeing Joran's website.

[LornaD]

I am intrigued by the absence of any comment from Joran's father. Did I miss information about this? Is anyone aware of the father visiting Joran in jail?

I have of course seen footage of the mother speaking to reporters and of her at the police station, but none of the father.

[Getagrip]

I also have to agree that the picture that Rick paints is the most likely one (and I'm not American - I'm *gasp* Canadian if that even matters). Don't look at any one detail, look at the whole picture.

The problem here is that we, the public, have been informed of so little. I think that's the exact reason why we're following this case so closely, and why we're checking out blogs and message boards. Sure, speculation is growing rampant but in the end, we just want to get to the truth.

The problem here is that the Arubans are stalling and stonewalling. Compare that to the US system of transparency, which allows the public to assess whether the process is fair and balanced.

I also have this to say: I was raised in the island (not Aruba) and I can tell you that boys start the drinking, going out and womanizing in their teens, especially when they come from 'well to do' families. The laws regarding drinking are but a mere suggestion. The fact that Joran is a lawyer's/judge-to-be's son would not have stopped him from engaging in the permissive island culture for boys his age (nor would his father would have been able to stop him).

I'm not sure if he murdered her, but I'm pretty sure 'something bad' happened. The 3 panicked and dumped her somewhere. They really thought they could get away with pinning the blame on someone else.

We have the US media to thank (despite the some of the misinformation and unconfirmed reporting, which I don't blame them too much for, in light of the mess the Aruban authorities have made). Were it not for the media's focus on this issue, you can be sure that those 2 poor security guards would have been convicted, or the case would have remained another unsolved mystery, while Joran and his buddies would have gone on with their lives.

[crs]

I saw the interview of Joran's mother and I think she knows exactly what happened and is covering for her son as well. She did not seem like someone convinced of hers son's innocence. if you recall the black suspects mother she was very adament of his innocence. I think Joran's mother knows what happened but does not want him to go to jail. At the very least, i got the feeling she knows in her heart he did something to this girl.

[Allen]

Rick,
Thanx for your webspace.
I am from Auburn, AL about 120 miles from Natalee Holloway's home. In reading all of the contributors comments, everyone has a rational viewpoint. However, about 10 years ago, a 10 year old child 'disappeared' in our 'safe' community. This sparked a huge regional search.
I happen to be a jogger, and decided to run down a deserted road close to the child's home. There I found the body of that little girl. This is after local police, state police, and FBI had 'searched' the area. The stepmother had drowned the girl in the bathtub and dumped her body. The reason for this lengthy recount is that there are searches, and then there are searches. I personally feel that Arubans are trying to protect their flawless tourism safety record, and that evidence has been destroyed or hidden.

[stl_native]

To Rick:
It is good to see someone on this board who is looking at the whole picture.

[ric]

there are many old mines and holes on the east coast of aruba. take a look over there!!!!!!!!!!