Update

I've created a category for this story at right and hope to move all posts into it when I can. I was able to do much today and have to remove a ton of tips and info so I may run through a lot fast here.

There was some independant searching going on by air today on the island. At least partly, it concentrated on some key areas mentioned in this case, so far as I know nothing significant was discovered. The search was still ongoing at time I spoke to an individual involved.

The Tattoo is up for sale, it's unclear if this was the case prior to the DJ's arrest. It could have been. I don't want to link it as this can crash servers not scaled for much traffic. It happened when I linked Carlos and CHarlies and there is no point in doing that to a sight that really contains scant information. The boat is/was on the market.

There are several political parties in Aruba, atleast one thinks there is a crime problem.

ORANJESTAD - “And today dear members, Aruba needs us all. Our country is in a financial crisis. Our people are suffering because of the policy measures. Our security and peace are vanishing under a wave of crime. Our future is insecure, without an adequate control on how many hotels our people and our island can still have” were some of the words of AVP Leader Mike Eman during his speech at the Congress 2005 which was held in the Wyndham Aruba Beach Resort Spa & Casino Ballroom over the week-end.

Update:

Here's an interesting bit from the Tattoo website - linked through the boat asle website - crime is one of the subtitles. Many caribbean Islands compete for business and crime is always an issue for tourism. I wouldn't make too much out of it - but like all islands, there are issues on Aruba they would rather not have get too much attention. That's business, not conspiracy.

Comments

[Observer]

What I do not get is why everyone keeps saying that there was a shoving match between Joran and another guy in thr group with Natalee and no one knows why. No one has bothered to answer the question of why these guys were shoving each other.Some people who post comments in this blog always seem to have so many different theories and negative things to say, particularly about JVS, it just seems strange that they have nothing to say about this or at least a source to say maybe such and such happened. Maybe Joran didn't even start the fight and it wasn't his fault. Seems to me if it was his fault there would be numerous posts from people ready to hang him.

Then again I could be wrong

[tideroller]

I recall reading that it was because he didn't like the way JVDS was talking to NH. Whether the info that I read was correct or not, I do not know. I have not seen it since. Can anyone verify this?

[Observer]

If that is true then why did her friend say on the news that they met the night before they went to Carlos 'n Charlies. Didn't the fight happen two days before nat and JVS met?

[GC]

How about this? A big well built guy from the tour group who had an interest in Natalee got mad that she flirted or had an affair with JVS and basically strangled her around 3:00 AM..were these folks even in the hotel room..were all of them accounted for by the chaperones? Too many loose ends here. May be the shoving match was between the local guy who was interested in Natalee and JVS who was trying to flirt with her.

[Sarah]

Well in case noone has seen the Fox update, Joran's parents are being interviewed by Greta at 9:00 CST..

[Sarah]

Well in case noone has seen the Fox update, the parents are being interviewed by Greta at 9:00 CST..

[observer]

I agree. This case has too many loose ends. IMO something just ain't right and I do not think that this case is exactly as it seems. I don't know the story of the shoving match but it seems to me that if JVS was in any way the 'bad guy' people would have dug deeper to paint an even more sinister picture of him. If I heard correctly, the shoving match was between JVS and a male Mt. Brook teen.

[Sarah]

OMG.. GC she didn't even know Joran but one day..how could she have an affair with him?

[texmom]

Why keep changing their stories if they didn't have anything to hide? I don't buy that theory about it being the guy in her travel group.

[K.Jeanne]

I heard the story about the shoving match a couple of weeks ago. I cannot verify the source now, but I know I did. What bothers me is the two friends interview by Greta last night didn't seem to know much about the last night in C&C's. They DID know that Natalee met JVS for the first time in the Holiday Inn Casino earlier that evening. That he said Sunday nights not much happens because not many go out on Sunday night. But, I keep wondering where/who are the people who saw her get into the car and leave with JVS??? Her two close friends said they didn't...so who are the people that did??? If Greta wanted to interview someone with information, why didn't she find them (those who saw her leave in the car) to ask questions?

[Dublin]

"How about this? A big well built guy from the tour group who had an interest in Natalee got mad that she flirted or had an affair with JVS and basically strangled her around 3:00 AM..were these folks even in the hotel room..were all of them accounted for by the chaperones? Too many loose ends here. May be the shoving match was between the local guy who was interested in Natalee and JVS who was trying to flirt with her."

Was there an old boyfriend in the group? Anyone from the group that would have been jealous of her going out with Joran? Interesting theory, but unless there is someone that was interested enough in her to kill her for going out for a ride with someone else...

[beachgirl]

It's for certain that there are way too many loose ends. Stories we hear from the 3 held in custody don't add up but the stories we hear from the Mountain Brook kids are not much clearer.

Many are upset with the information they hear of Joran (and some already decided he's guilty), but he's a teenager, just like Natalee is a teenager. And it could be that they BOTH made some really bad choices. Like all teens do sometimes.

Joran could have had consensual sex with Natalee, then left her at the beach without making sure she got back to her hotel safely. Then she turned up missing. He has no clue but now they are interviewing him everyday "showing him pictures of Natalee and calling him a murderer" (I don't know if this is true).

All I know is that he is a minor put in jail without being charged and forbidden to see his father. If that happened here in the US to one of our kids, we would be outraged.

I sure hope and PRAY, that the person or persons truly responsible for whatever they did to Natalee, is not just watching all of this on TV from some place far away.

I hope that this is resolved soon and all the truth is out. And the person truly responsible for Natalee's disappearance is put behind bars.

[Chris]

Enough with all the conspiracy talk. If an ex-boyfriend got jealous and killed NH, why would Joran and the other 2 have to lie?

Wouldnt they just have said "It wasn't us, it was that crazy motherf*cker she was dating."?

I mean do you really think its likely that some guy on the trip killed her, disposed of the body and was able to get Joran, the brothers and SGC to take the rap for him?

There are far too many people on this board that have not done their homework.....

[mgt]

If Joran is not involved in the disappearance, why has he told multiple stories about the night's events?

[Chris]

Who cares if a minor is behind bars and not allowed to talk to his father??

Joran obviously knows what happened and whether or not he actually killed her, he should be put in jail for one lying to the polis and two making NH's poor family have to deal with more confusion and uncertainty...

Am I the only one who feels like this?

[beachgirl]

Joran would tell different versions because he could be
a) thinking at first that he could just say anything and they would let him go (especially if he's used to getting preferential treatment)....
b)not wanting to sound like a jerk(especially if he just left her on the beach after sex).... or c) just plain SCARED because he's a KID. I'm a parent and I've seen kids give "semi-truths" because they are afraid. But now in Joran's case, telling different versions (even if he's finally telling the truth) is only going to make him look more suspicious.

[Chris]

Beach girl-

1). Joran is not a celebrity on the island and his family is not that rich. When they were interviewing people on Fox nobody even knew him. The only people who knew him were people from his private school. Its not like his the crown price of Aruba.

2). I'm sure the "semi-truths" that your children tell dont involve a missing teenager and a possible kidnapping/murder rap.

3). When you are the prime suspect in a high profile case, staring down 25-life, you better get the facts straight and nothing but the facts b/c once you lie, your guilty until proven innocent.....

[tideroller]

Beachgirl - Lay off the pity for the "boy" not getting to see his "father". Obviously the polis and the Dutch government have VERY good reason to believe that the father, because of his legal training as well as his own contradictory statements, would "coach" the son on what lie to say next, etc. Many think the father will be the next to be arrested (and should already have been long ago.)

[Canadian Girl]

Chris

I definetly agree with you and the comment you made about doing thier homework is right on. The people in Aruba are quite freindly i'm sure, but not likely willing to set themselves up to take the fall for murdering a young tourist.

[Canadian Girl]

let's not forget that this poor young kid, gambled, drove alll over the island and drank in bars all well being underage. His father even went drinking and gambling with him...oh yea and he had his own apartment too.

[Chris]

Thanks Canadian Girl, I have seen your posts and I know you have done your homework....

[Dublin]

I still think it is worth looking at the security guard who was supposedly there when she was dropped off:

The add on the Tattoo's for sale web site does have a section on "Crime"
http://www.tattoopartycruises.com/pages/factfigures.html

"Crime
Aruba remains a relatively small community that has managed to keep its crime to a minimum. While incidents do occur, Aruba still holds the destinction of being one of the safest island in the Caribbean. A recent cooperation between public and private sector has established a type of tourism police that monitors the main tourist areas to provide visibility to tourists (reassurance) and to discourage criminal behavior.
"

So, if I think about this, and dismiss any thread in my head about Joran and the boys and their inconsistent stories, and just focus on this for a minute. My mind says that a tourist, like NH, could be lulled into a sense of security in seeing one of these "security guards" near the hotel.

I recall a series of articles about security guards in the US and how many of them actually had arrest records and in many cases women were being raped by the security guards businesses had hired to protect the office and it's staff:
1.
Guard arrested in man’s death
Felon illegally working at Walgreens shot shoplifting suspect, police say
By JOHN DIEDRICH
jdiedrich@journalsentinel.com
Posted: April 18, 2005
A convicted felon with a long, violent history who was working illegally as a security guard at Walgreens shot and killed an unarmed man accused of stealing sunglasses Sunday night, prompting a state investigation.

2.
Last December, a 41-year-old man sought a security guard's position at Allied Security Inc. The big contract-security company based in King of Prussia, Pa., hires about 16,000 guards a year to protect shopping malls, hospitals, universities, banks and other clients in 38 states.

The prospect seemed particularly promising because he had held a similar guard job with a rival company and lived in Philadelphia for four years. He showed up well-dressed and on time for his job interview. Most important, he twice swore in writing -- and again face-to-face -- that he had never been convicted of a criminal offense.

Allied Security hoped to assign the man to a local information-technology company. But the candidate was never hired. Carco Research, Allied's background-checking service, discovered that the man formerly lived in Michigan, where he had been convicted of drug dealing, sentenced to prison, then escaped, and was arrested and imprisoned again until his parole in 1996.

3.
http://mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ54p.police.html

An old Ethiopian Cultural practice involved abduction of a wife:
"In some regions of Ethiopia, abduction is an old cultural practice used to take a girl as wife by force. Typically, the girl is abducted by a group of young men. She is then raped by the man who wants to marry her, who may be someone she knows or may be a total stranger. The elders from the man's village then apologize to the family of the girl and ask them to agree to the marriage. The family often consents because a girl who has lost her virginity would be socially unacceptable for marriage to another man. Sometimes the abductor keeps the girl in a hiding place until she is pregnant, at which time her family feels it has no option but to agree to the marriage."

http://www.equalitynow.org/english/actions/action_2202_en.html

I suggest that perhaps .. just perhaps.. there could have been a security guard, who may have been of Ethiopian culture, or perhaps a Rasta who have an "Afro-Centric" culture and may imitate old cultures from pre-colonized societies in Africa.

Could this individual have abducted her and have her held somewhere on the island as per the perceived cultural tradition would call for?

Isn't that similar to the Elizabeth Smart abduction, and was that guy a rastafarian? Didn't he abduct ES to make her his wife?

It is a fairly regular practice in the Sudan as well, neighbors of Ethiopia. I am still looking for studies on the population of Aruba to determine the % of population that could be rasta or Ethiopian...

Special Groups and Slavery in Sudan

Nina Shea, U.S. Delegation
Remarks to the 57th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights
Geneva, Switzerland
April 11, 2001

Mr. Chairman:

My name is Nina Shea and I am a public member of the U.S. delegation, appointed by President George W. Bush. Our topic today -- special groups and individuals -- covers many issues of importance to the people and the government of the United States. Among these are the rights of ethnic and religious minorities, migrant workers, displaced persons, and contemporary forms of slavery. Each of these topics is worthy of discussion in its own right. I have spent most of my adult life working on them, and so I am honored to have the chance to address this forum on matters that are of great personal and professional interest to me.

The drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights believed that moral suasion, publicly exercised, could be a potent force for change. Since that time, reason, reporting, and dialogue have been the primary tools the Commission on Human Rights has used to spotlight the great moral, social and political issues of the day.

There is a great moral issue facing this Commission, Mr. Chairman, the systematic violation in Sudan of a long-standing, widely-recognized human rights norm. I am speaking of chattel slavery, and the way it is practiced in Sudan against women and children from racial, ethnic, and religious minorities.

Let us be absolutely clear: there is a major difference between the word "abduction" and the word "slavery." Abducting people means taking them away against their will. It implies nothing about what happens to them afterwards. Making slaves of people has everything to do with what happens to them afterwards. To be sure, both abductions and slavery do take place in Sudan. But there is slavery in Sudan, and this Commission must call it what it is -- slavery.

For the Commission to speak of abductions, therefore, and say nothing about slavery, as this year's resolution does, is to condemn the lesser violation and ignore the graver one completely. This is an abdication of the fundamental responsibility of this Commission to defend the universal human rights of every human being to life, liberty, and the security of person.

My government has made many interventions on slavery in Sudan in recent years, and our annual Country Reports on Human Rights Situations have repeatedly documented this abhorrent practice. But that is hardly all. In her December 1999 report, High Commissioner Robinson stated that Sudan was a country "where traditional slavery persists."

For the past 7 years, this Commission has had before it the annual reports of the UN Special Rapporteurs on Sudan. Each makes reference to slave-raids, details the treatment slaves endure, and emphasizes the Sudanese government's failure to put an end to this violence.

In the 1994 report, for example, the Special Rapporteur described how Dinka women and children were abducted by the government's Popular Defense Forces, the PDF, the Mujahedin and army units and then sold into slavery to northern Sudanese and persons from abroad.

The following year, the Special Rapporteur stated unequivocally that "the phenomena of slavery and practices assimilated to slavery… do exist in the Sudan." That report also noted the "total lack of interest shown so far by the competent Sudanese authorities with regard to investigating the cases brought to their knowledge over the past several years."

In 1996, the Special Rapporteur identified a pattern that "indicates a deliberate policy on the part of the government to ignore or even condone this practice of slavery." It goes on to state: "In most of the cases brought to the attention of the government of the Sudan, the reported perpetrators belong to the Sudanese army and the Popular Defense Forces, which are under the control of the government of the Sudan. Even in the cases involving members of different tribal militias, the slavery occurred within the context of the war and there are the same perpetrators and victims." He noted that women captured as "war booty" are in some cases subjected to "sexual slavery."

The 1999 report found: "There is enough consistent and credible information to ascertain the existence of slavery patterns in the Sudan." This same report also detailed the regime's arrangement with local militias and units of the Popular Defense Forces that escort the government's military supply train south toward the town of Wau. In return for their cooperation, he states, "the militia are allowed to carry out raids on neighboring villages and to keep the proceeds of looting as payment. The raids are very violent and the militia and PDF perpetrate killings, rape, and abductions of women and children. The women and children thus kidnapped are held until payment of ransom or are kept in conditions amounting to slavery." He also reported on forcible religious conversion.

He also described the "harsh" conditions for the victims, with "abuse, torture, rape and, at times, killing being the norm." They are "forced to herd cattle, work in the fields, fetch water, dig wells, do housework and perform sexual favors." Further, he stated, "the government is not taking measures to prevent or sanction the raids against civilian populations."
http://www.rastafarian.net/Sudan%20slavery.htm

[Merde]

It is very easy to attack someone who can’t defend himself!

Why can’t you accept the fact that other counties have different values than your own? Do you think you are superiour? What is it that makes you think that what you do is the right thing?

--- Homo praesumitur bonus donec probetur malus ---

[Gypsy]

FREE JORAN !!!

[Ang]

DUBLIN: IF IT WAS TRUE about the security guard..then the degenerates (boys) in being held wouldnt have to keep changing their stories.. they would have stuck by the same story without end
but that they changed it..and even more than once besides that
...ONLY ,MEANS..OK.THAT DIDNT WORK..SO NOW WE HAVE TO THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE......

[HOWDY]

Dublin,,, OMG. was that even necessary ? geeesh !!

I think we will be surprised maybe even shocked at what really happened.. Too many people involed .

The students are definitly have their own secrets just like the boys. this is not a typical crime that you see on the news everyday..

This s**t is wayy deep....

[gemebwai]

Let me start by killing a story about the Tatoo... This boat has been for sale for almost a year now. Reason is high maintenance cost and the owner is looking for another boat for this operation.

About guards in Aruba... Mayority of those come from other countries (like Colombia, Venzuela) because it's a dirty bad paid job not popular by Arubans. Hence, these people are socially low class (they arrested two non-foreigners but as you might have noticed, in the lower class section of society). This does not mean there is supposed to be a (relatively) high percentage of criminals amongst them. The foreigners contracted need authenticated papers from their home country to prove a clean record prior to obtaining their work permit (ok, there is some curroption there...)

Another thing about the mentality of the Aruban, authority is something acepted on the outside, not within, there is always some fight below the surface. I will not go into the historical/antropological background of this. In the end, it is quite common to defend friends to a level unheard of in other countries.

[gemebwai]

Oh yeah, maybe even more interesting, I remember NH's mother mentioning that she did not have a boyfriend. NH's nick on one of these private blog sites is "Ilovedean".. OK, might be over with this Dean or maybe he was on the trip as well? Shouldn't be that hard to find out...

[Paul]

Just a point to remember. Regardless of the events leading to the disapperance of Natalee, I truly believe that in the final outcome those accused will be given a slap on the wrist. They will be able to take the facts and explain away the event as some tragic accident. Their lies will be explained away as young boys who were scared because they may have broken a much less serious law. Wait and see.

[Hope]

Jorans father is working his way into Dutch Monarchy....Joran is 17....a minor...a MINOR...if he fell victom to a mishap, (accidental homicide) he would first:
a) try to cover up
b) second rely on dad to cover up
c) third break down and confess knowing he is 17 and a minor under Dutch law....he would do no real time...his dad knows this, his mom knows this, they all know his dads Judgeship is now a pipedream.....why not confess....why does he not confess...all of us who stay here in this forum day after day, hour after hour still refuse to ask ourselves...what is really going on. Occams razor....

Occams Razor
"A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known. Also called law of parsimony."

I drempt last night..."in my dream I smell the smell of chemicals...once before I smelled this, the smell and taste of an anesthesia right before i passed out on the operating table at the age of 14, after 15 seconds of this I drempt that something was after me, i fight to get away from this thing coming at me...then this thing becomes headless...I feel slightly safer..untill...the headless thing comes at me again, and now it feels like many many hands pulling at my stomach, more hands than this thing should have...why is it still alive pulling at me"...then I awake...I've been semiasleep for 20 mins. Dear lambs of God, I can say that was our angel...on 6/22/05 at 5:20am I was touched...blessed...ushered in...her soul is strong...we will not fail her.

[Tim-Alabama-USA]

It simply amazes me at what length Arubans aad some females will go to in order to declare Joran innocent! You do not lie without a reason. Just like lying to NH about being a tourist! HE'S ONE BIG LIE!!! If he's found guilty, GIVE HIM DEATH!!!

[keri]

steve croes is innicent and everyone need to stop taring him up and making all these assumptions.. nobody wants to say that his is very respected on the island and very nice, caring, considerate, loving person. and hard worker for the tatoo and the dushi.. the boat was up for sale before all this and people need to stop making up stories... they need to let him go...he's innicent