One is a personal observation I am only posting after seeing the interview with Mrs. Kalpoe tonight on Fox. I can remember when this all started and I was reviewing the boy's websites.
Just as Joran's website was noteworthy for a significant number of pictures from partying and the clubs, casinos, etc. .. the site of Satish was the opposite.
I remember pictures from field trips, archeological sites, art and so forth - I was genuinely struck by the difference in the two boys. That doesn't mean anything as far as guilt, or innocence, but it was a genuine observation.
The second observation will sound like gossip, which basically, it is - please take that into account. If it didn't come through an extremely reliable source on the island, I would not mention it at all.
In talking with an adult professional from Aruba who knew Joran, the individual stated that Joran often bragged to him of his many "sexual conquests" resulting from the use of an illicit substance slipped into a woman's drink and the Aruban individual suggested Joran was a "psychopath."
I doubt that the source of these statements is a certified psychologist, but if he is repeating these types of statements to individuals in and around the investigation, it will likely come out and be proven or disproven in any potential trial. And noone should be considered guilty of anything without one.
LornaD, there is a huge difference between 18 year-old adults in military service and 18 year-old children blowing it out in Aruba.
In the United States military 18 year-old adults are highly trained and supervised. Evidently, in Mountain Brook, Alabama, 18 year-old children are neither.
Posted by: JustMe | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:28 AM
To clarify..."except those that had given her the drug"...by that I actually meant Joran...and
I believe the 2 Brothers knew Joran's plan...thats why they were waiting at the door of the resturant. And I have serious doubt that this was Joran's first time to give a girl a date rape drug...and in Carlo N Charlies..the 2 bro's
were watching Joran and Natalee...waiting for Joran's cue that he was luring Natalee away from her group. I believe they knowing Joran, had seen him pull this same event before with other girls
that Joran wanted to "conquest".
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:28 AM
Florida Girl, I sent you an email, if indeed that is really you.
Posted by: Websleuthing | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:31 AM
Link for Natalee's Hope For Natalee bracelet
I am also testing the html on this board to see if it works.
Posted by: Websleuthing | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:33 AM
it's me for real - check you email
Posted by: Florida Girl | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:33 AM
Web - that site for the bracelets - look at the last sentence of what i have pasted here.....
it says:
"The Natalee Holloway Trust Recovery Fund was established to help offset the family's expenses while searching for her. The family has also expressed an interest in creating a future scholarship program to honor Natalee. "
do they know something already? Notice the last sentence - am I reading too much into it or what?
Posted by: Florida Girl | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:35 AM
For Heaven's sakes, Justme, I know they are trained etc. in the Army! But they don't go in trained, do they? They are no different than Natalee when they make a decision to do something at 18, that will affect their life so greatly, possibly even end it.
Are we going to say Natalee, the 18 year old island visitor is a child, but Johnny Doe, 18 year old who signs up for the service is an adult?
Chronological age and behavioral age are two different things anyway and further, behavioral age is different for each individual person. Some 18 year olds are more mature than some 30 year olds.
Posted by: LornaD | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:38 AM
FG, you might be. On the other hand, someone said that her father has already considered that she might not be with us anymore, which is unfortunately how I might be feeling or thinking as well.
Posted by: Websleuthing | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:39 AM
Mt. Brook Mom,
Earlier, you said that there were
-2 groups of kids, each thinking Natalee was with the other,
-Natalee was given a date rape drug etc.
- "but noone knew until she vanished" ??
What do you mean? No one knew that she was given a date rape drug until she vanished? OR
No one saw her leave and then she vanished?
I just was a bit confused because the kids interviewed said that they saw Natalee and she looked fine. When asked whether she was drunk, they said "No, she was drinking responsibly and she looked fine"
Also, didn't some kids see Natalee get in the car? (and refuse to go with the rest of her friends?)
Posted by: beachgirl | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:41 AM
This is a bit o/t but up till now, I have always thought I wanted to go to the third world, say, to Mexico and see the pyramids, or to south america and see the amazing waterfalls, or the exotic Caribbean.
My husband, who has been to the Caribbean Islands (but stayed in an extremely wealthy person's place) said absolutely not.
Now I know why. You are really risking a lot by visiting the third world.
Posted by: Websleuthing | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:42 AM
Just Me
You stand to be CORRECTED! I being a Mt. Brook Mom will tell you that this trip was suggested and arranged by a travel company. The kids went there in celebration of having recently graduated from MBHS. Aruba has beautiful beaches, scenery,
and was thought to be safe, let me repeat that SAFE...that is the reputation marketed by Aruba
and travel agents. It just so happened that the Holiday Inn where the travel agent booked the kids rooms had a casino adjacent...I am not so sure that this was disclosed by the agent making the arrangements. It was more like the Holiday Inn had ENOUGH ROOMS to house that many kids from MBHS.
NOW I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO ASSINATE THE KIDS AND PARENTS OF MBHS. YOUR SPECULATIONS AND DESIRE TO TRY AND SPREAD A RUMOR SUCH AS WHAT YOU WROTE ABOVE ARE WRONG...and that is one reason why I am here posting in this Blog...to set the record straight. I don't have to be here but I choose to be. As a parent I can assure that a great deal of planning, preparation and co-ordination went into planning the trip to Aruba.
And I just hope that this horrific event never happens to another child again anywhere such as what has happened to our Natalee. We love Natalee here and want her returned home ASAP...
Your comments are without validity and are purely rumors trying to assignate our children and community. You should be ashamed of what you wrote.
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:44 AM
web -
i need to go do some reading for my psych class then get in bed...talk to you tomorrow....
goodnight....
Posted by: Florida Girl | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:45 AM
"turns out she had be led out of the resturant and into the car...I am not even sure
that she really knew what was happening..."
OH PUHLEEZ!!! This is in DIRECT CONFLICT with what the kids have been saying. If Nat "had to be led out" then WHO did the leading and WHY would the Mountain Brook BRATS just stand around and let her get into that car?!!! If this is true then they are MORE CULPABLE!!!
Is this more of the "Mountain Brook Coverup" to make Natalee and indeed ALL of the kids look more "innocent?" If so, it backfired!! Knock it off: EVERYBODY KNOWS THOSE KIDS WERE BOMBED OUT OF THEIR MINDS! Even the Holiday Inn staff had LOTS to say about it!! You Alabama people really do need to get your stories straight; this is getting ridiculous!!
Posted by: Lurker | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:45 AM
JustMe,
I agree with the difference between an 18 year old in the army and 18 year old in Aruba. HUGE difference. I had a friend that went into the army right after high school and it was tough for him. They have rigorous training and a schedule and curfew they have to keep. They are "monitored".
Posted by: beachgirl | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:46 AM
My, my, but you are DEFENSIVE, Mt. Brook Mom!
And now Natalee is a CHILD?!! What in the world were CHILDREN doing in Aruba getting sh1tfaced!! SHAME ON THEIR PARENTS, ALL OF THEM!!!!
Posted by: Lurker | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:47 AM
FG: Good night. I too need to get to bed and study more for accounting :)
Thank you for the email :)
Posted by: Websleuthing | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:50 AM
LMAO at Mt. Brook Mom saying "restaurant/bar," then "restaurant."
Go ahead and spin it, lady! EVERYBODY knows better!
Posted by: Lurker | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:51 AM
LornaD, get a grip.
Eighteen year-old kids who join the military leave basic trainging as adults, or at least semi-adults. But they are not sent into potentially dangerous areas without the supervision of someone who knows what he is doing.
The wet-behind-the-ears children from Mountain Brook, Alabama, were sent by their parents to a foreign country without proper supervision to basically do anything that they wanted. Just in case you have yet to figure it out the latter is a formula for disaster.
Please spare me your pop psychology. Never in my life have I seen any 18 year-old who acted more mature than a 30 year-old.
With that I am going to bed.
Good night.
Posted by: JustMe | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:52 AM
Quit blaming the parents, chaperones, etc. These kids were of age and KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. It wasn't the first time they partied and won't be the last. Remember, these were kids from an upper class neighborhood with more privilege than most. They weren't 18 going on 12.
When I was 18, I certainly knew what I was doing and not to go with strangers, especially if all were shitfaced and our judgment impaired. Certainly most of that age know this. We are taught it at age 5 for crying out loud. I do not wish any harm to anyone, but Natalee put herself in the face of danger when she made a bad judgment call to befriend JVDS et al.
Posted by: lori | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:53 AM
Everyone: It's getting late here in the USA, try to stay calm. I think we all do need sleep.
Mt. Brook Mom: while I'd like to find out more from you what people are saying in your area and you seem to be a wonderful person, I think it's best to get some rest. I don't think JM is really meaning total harm at this point.
I would also like to know from you how Aruba was sold to as a "totally safe place". Think about it more and post tomorrow. I am very interested in what is going on, as are many on this MB.
As for me, I don't think I will ever visit those beautiful places where the seas are clear, beautiful and turquoise, as long as they're not first world. What a lesson, and a sad one.
Oh and I'm going to bed. Good night all.
Posted by: Websleuthing | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:54 AM
Jennifer D., you are one smart G.I., lady!!
And Mt. Brook Mom: John Grisham is NOT a private investigator; he's a FICTION WRITER who happens to be an attorney in the United States. How much do you think he knows about Aruban/Dutch law?
Geez! [rolleyes]
Posted by: Lurker | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:55 AM
Yes there were two groups... I heard one of the kids say that they went around a corner...and thought Natalee was with the other group...aparently it was the second group that a few kids saw Natalee wave from the car when leaving with Joran and the 2 Bro's
Two girls did report that they tried to talk
Natalee into not going with Joran.
It was only reported that Natalee had stumbled when dancing on the dance floor at the resturant.
Read up on date rape drugs lurker...then you will have a clearer understanding.
Lurker I am sure that there are words that would
efficiently describe your monotone..I believe you to be purely rude.
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:55 AM
Justme, I have a grip, thank you, and I don't do pop psychology. My opinion is as valid as yours. No need for the attitude.
Posted by: LornaD | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 02:57 AM
What is it that some of you don't understand abou the example I gave? I am NOT saying a TRAINED 18 year old in the Army is the same as a partying high school grad.
I am saying an 18 year old graduates and decides to sign up is making a decision and signing as an adult. He/she does not even need a parent's blessing to sign up.
Natalee was or is 18 and made a decision to go on a trip to Aruba and she did it with her mother's consent.
If an 18 year old is considered mature enough to DECIDE to SIGN up for Armed Forces, then you can't make a blanket decision that other 18 year olds are "children".
Personally I think most are "children" at that age and I would not have wanted my child to go on that trip, girl or boy.
Posted by: LornaD | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:03 AM
Mt. Brook Mom,
I feel terrible for Natalee and I would just like to read or hear from ONE Mountain Brook parent saying what a MISTAKE it was to send a group of young kids to a foreign country, unsupervised (because we already know that the chaperones weren't there to tell them not to go to bars, do bed checks etc.), where they can legally drink at 18!!!!!
Even if each and every one of them are honor students, it doesn't matter! They are still kids.
Instead, I just hear all parents and kids saying they were told "Aruba is safe" and "We were drinking responsibly".
Is that it? What a shame!
Posted by: beachgirl | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:03 AM
Thank you for your kind words Web...I have had four sons to attend the MB School System and during the school year or after a graduation it has always been customary to plan trips for students. These trips are either for kids attending the Junior High or High School level. THESE TRIPS ARE NOT SCHOOL SPONSORED...they are organized and arranged outside of the school but only available to students in certain grades.
During the Christmas Holidays...travel plans and arrangements are made for a snow ski
trip to the Rockie Mtn.'s.
These trips are suggested, planned and arranged by a professional STUDENT travel company..
those the parents on the travel committee agree on a destination and a trip...thus the trip is implemented. One of my sons has previously been on such a trip to Europe, primarily focuing on France. But he did visit 7 countries with other students from the school...and he loved it! There are also parent and student meetings during the planning stages of all trips.
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:09 AM
I read that Natalee's natural father was against the trip and that Natalee's mother over-ruled his objections and gave her permission to go.
Is that true?
If so, then even Natalee's parents didn't see eye to eye about the Aruba trip. If it was an issue at the family level ... then I can certainly understand why someone might bring it up in this forum.
Personally ... I think its a dead issue that can only result in blaming people, who without access to hindsight, did what they thought was appropriate at the time. In their wildest dreams, no one ever thought something like this would happen.
Posted by: Unknown | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:17 AM
Did you guys notice that the girls from MTn Brk said that it was NH who introduced herself to Joran, while he was just sitting there not trying to flirt or anything??
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:22 AM
There were so many of her own guy friends from Mtn Brk, but she wanted to meet up with a stranger !!!
We all feel for NH, but dont try to say they were angels !!
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:24 AM
Students interested in an after graduation trip were given the opportunity to go on this trip
at the discression of themselves and parents.
The entire Senior class was not on this trip..but a large percentage did attend.
This is my own personal opinion, in reference to your comment that it was a mistake to send the kids on this trip was unforeseen.
As I stated..this trip was arranged by a profession STUDENT travel company...
we have used this company before and the trips turned out problem free... the beaches, beautiful scenery on a Caribbean Island were the goals of the trip..problems with the locals such as Joran and his 2 bro friends hitting on beautiful blonde blue eyed American girls were unknown. Also unknown was that you can't walk down the beach without being approached by someone trying to sell you drugs.
Realistically if the kids wanted to party,
drink, get drugged up...they would not have to gone to Aruba...thats not why they went there.
It was there last opportunity as a group to do something fun together prior to going off in many different directions...college, military, whereever. And no one can blame anyone for that.
I don't think that it matters where you are in this world...there are probally lots of Joran Van Der Sloots...Natalee just became a victim...
and for this our hearts are broken...we just want her back and justice done in this case...
Please pray for the safe return of Natalee..
and please pray for her family...this is all
we are asking here in Mt. Brook from the rest of the world...I assure you...Natalee is our child and we love her...we would have never allowed even one child on the island of Aruba if anyone could have seen into the future. Be thankful this was not your child...something you did not foresee..and that your daughter was not vicitmized by the likes of a Joran Van Der Sloot.
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:28 AM
Mtn Brk MOM!!!
NH hit on Joran!!!
Joran did not hit on 'the beautiful blonde" !!Thats what your own kids said on Fox the other day.
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:30 AM
Give me ten minutes with this scum and I'll have the truth, or he will be choking on his severed genitals. It's time to teach these incompetent island bunglers how to do an interrogation.
Aruba, you had better listen and do what you're told. Your laws don't matter anymore. You need to just let the Americans take over this entire investigation or risk economic collapse. The longer you wait, the louder the calls grow for boycotting your miserable island. I'm sure you have already been affected by it. Dutch law is not the problem; your total lack of experience in criminal cases is.
The clock is ticking. Get the truth or all of you will suffer for Natalee.
Posted by: no more excuses | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:30 AM
Give me ten minutes with this scum and I'll have the truth, or he will be choking on his severed genitals. It's time to teach these incompetent island bunglers how to do an interrogation.
Aruba, you had better listen and do what you're told. Your laws don't matter anymore. You need to just let the Americans take over this entire investigation or risk economic collapse. The longer you wait, the louder the calls grow for boycotting your miserable island. I'm sure you have already been affected by it. Dutch law is not the problem; your total lack of experience in criminal cases is.
The clock is ticking. Get the truth or all of you will suffer for Natalee.
Posted by: no more excuses | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:32 AM
Mr Excuses,
what are you talking about ???
NH was drunk, hanging around with strangers, in a foreign land, in a lonely beach in the middle of the night with another kid...who are you mad with??
The rapists and human traffickers around the world??
Joran did not kill her. The local thugs chased that silly bum home and took the stupid American girl.
Get real, kid.
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:37 AM
US is no safer than Aruba, with all the child molesters and sexual predators, dont act like this is Holy Land.
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:39 AM
Its late in the night now. A time when evil and dark intentions prevail. For a drunk blonde to be on the beaches of Aruba at this unearthly hour send shivers up my spine.
Joran doesn't bother me. He's just a big-mouth kid.
The "underground" dogs, child kidnappers and traffickers, predators, who are always watching the tourists to catch the vulnerable ones, the filthy scum.
I know they followed Joran and confronted him on the beach.
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:48 AM
Natalee according to one of the girls did indeed
hit on Joran first..as it was reported...but that night in Carlos N Charlies I believe was definately preplanned by Joran...I think too he knew Natalee was planning to leave with her group on Monday.
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:49 AM
Mtn Brk Mom,
Joran is not the killer. There are big time traffickers in Aruba, who will pounce on vulnerable victims. When they found two stupid teens on the beach, they caught the girl and the boy fled !!
Did Joran have any marks on his body?? DOnt you think any struggle would leave at least a scratch on his body??
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:54 AM
Natalee Holloway is a modern day Helen of Troy!
Posted by: Harry | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:56 AM
Hey, NO MORE EXCUSES:
the fact that the US is more experienced in this matter than Aruba, sadly enuff says more about YOUR country, than about that peaceful little island. For fucks sake: realize where you are at this moment, idiot!
Posted by: The Dutch built Harlem | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:56 AM
"Date rape" drugs and alcohol are a potentially lethal combination. I'm surprised nobody mentioned this point. Before we go off on wild and sinister imaginings about Joran being a psychopath, or the dad playing a major role in the purposeful murder of Natalee, I would suggest we consider the simplest, and therefore most likely, scenario:
Natalee was highly intoxicated. Joran administered a drug that reacted strongly with the alcohol, unintentionally killing the girl. Joran freaked out. He and Dad disposed of the body and orchestrated a cover-up.
Posted by: Scott | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:57 AM
I'm talking big time, like the Global Traffickers, the Aruba based Mansur family, who has links with terrorists. In a small isalnd like that, there's a lot of danger for a drunk girl to be lonely on the coasts !! Joran fled for his life..
Read this:
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/hizbullah/pb/app14.htm
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 03:59 AM
Well ... Time will tell how good your math is jonscot.
We will see if she was drunk or drugged, hanging around willingly or taken, on a lonely beach in the middle of the night with another kid or forced against her will. You've reduced it all to a personal theory ... but the fat lady hasn't sung that one yet. Your math might not add up.
You want to give Joran a break? But not Natalee?
Posted by: Unknown | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:01 AM
Hello, people.
I've been lurking for quite some time now. I really want to jump in and point out that this "blame the parents for expecting humans to treat their daughter decently" line of crap is infuriating and sexist. Is it not true that daughters often get assaulted by neighbors and "acquaintances" while in their very own hometown? Is it not true that daughters are assaulted all the time -- on vacation, or on a mission in Africa (nuns!) or while just being nine year olds in their beds, etc.? What's the rationale for those cases? That their parents let them roam the streets like autonomous humans?
When I was 18, I backpacked through India on my own. I made friends. I volunteered. I walked alone. I was assaulted. I went back to India twice.
I survived, and I would never ever keep my daughter from realizing her full potential because the world is full of misogynist jackasses who either a. rape and drug women or b. sit on their fat asses on message boards and point fingers at heartbroken Moms, chaperones, victims, etc. but neglect to realize that there is something fundamentally messed up about having half the species able to roam the world at will, and the other half needing to "travel in groups" and "be home early" and dress a certain way so as not to incur crimes on their person.
Quit pointing at the mothers and chaperones who never lifted a hand to hurt anyone. Blame the rapists and rapists-in-training that walk among us.
Posted by: girlonahalfshell | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:01 AM
Scott,
A kid who has killed a girl will not go to school the next day. Instincts will say RUN !!
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:01 AM
Joran is a stupid fool. He looks no way smart enough to fool all of us. If he was guilty, it would have been very evident.
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:03 AM
girl who went to india,
you are brave and God was with you. Would you put yourslef in a dangerous position and blame the scum??
No way.
Posted by: jonscot | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:06 AM
I don't think that Joran killed Natalee either.
I am not really sure what happened.She is definately somewhere else if she is not dead.
Joran is the one that she was last seen with and that has lied,and changed his story over and over during the investigation. I believe that he knows what happened to Natalee..just as Beth stated. I think the 2 Bro's, and Paulus Van Der Sloot do too. Its just a shame that they had to continue all of this time trying to cover up whatever bad happened knowing her Mom and the entire world were
looking for Natalee. People who lie generally have something they are trying to cover up in my opinion.
If a druglord/ or someone whom Joran owed a debt, does have Natalee I am sure that
he would never want to say so fearful of the safety of himself and family.
Again I retain my hope that she is alive and will do so unless there is a body.
Posted by: Mt. Brook Mom | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:10 AM
jonscot,
As I pointed out -- everywhere can be considered a dangerous position due to the insane variety of places girls are victimized (eg. their homes). And how do you define who is scum when "well-raised" guys think writing "pimp" in their profile is all good fun?
Posted by: girlonahalfshell | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:11 AM
Jonscot,
If Joran accidentally killed a girl and his father helped clean up the situation, he definitely would go to school the next day. To run is to scream, "I'm guilty!" Because the police were so slow to apprehend him, Joran and Dad had LOTS of time to discuss how they were going to handle things (i.e. what Joran should say to the cops.) If there was some kind of attack on the pair by a third party, I think Joran would have gone to the cops with that story. He's not going to risk being accused of murder if he had such a neat alibi that he could use.
Posted by: scott | Friday, June 24, 2005 at 04:12 AM