Two Observations

One is a personal observation I am only posting after seeing the interview with Mrs. Kalpoe tonight on Fox. I can remember when this all started and I was reviewing the boy's websites.

Just as Joran's website was noteworthy for a significant number of pictures from partying and the clubs, casinos, etc. .. the site of Satish was the opposite.

I remember pictures from field trips, archeological sites, art and so forth - I was genuinely struck by the difference in the two boys. That doesn't mean anything as far as guilt, or innocence, but it was a genuine observation.

The second observation will sound like gossip, which basically, it is - please take that into account. If it didn't come through an extremely reliable source on the island, I would not mention it at all.

In talking with an adult professional from Aruba who knew Joran, the individual stated that Joran often bragged to him of his many "sexual conquests" resulting from the use of an illicit substance slipped into a woman's drink and the Aruban individual suggested Joran was a "psychopath."

I doubt that the source of these statements is a certified psychologist, but if he is repeating these types of statements to individuals in and around the investigation, it will likely come out and be proven or disproven in any potential trial. And noone should be considered guilty of anything without one.

Comments

[SP]

whoa...someone credible said that about Joran? That speaks volumes.

So where does Dad come in?

[Drew]

I agree that the mother's interview gave me an impression that the brothers were more innocent...

Just speculation but it makes sense to me based on what is now coming out that the brothers did drop Natalee and Joran off at that beach, especialy as Joran has now admitted to being alone with her.

She may not have been drugged - just very drunk - but even in this state, Natalee's intentions were far different than Joran's. The two were already kissing in the car, but when Joran went for more when alone with her, things got out of hand. Perhaps he raped her. Then she became hysterical. Next, in a rage and for fear of everything he had at stake if she charged him with rape, he kills her.

I believe at that point he either got in touch with his father or the brothers - the DJ was then contacted to dispose of the body.

If the three boys got rid of her body without the father's help, then they probably went to the father later that night for advice and they then collaborated on a story.

IF the father helped and the brothers were at home at this point, the father and Joran would still need the brothers to collaborate the cover story - as they knew that Joran had been alone with Natalee... perhaps the father, as a judge, was able to convince the boys to do this ...using his power and whatnot....

Just some thoughts....

[Websleuthing]

I've posted that theory, as have others. So it appears that people that allegedly know JVDS are saying this about him, it's been speculated for a while here.

Somehow that backs up what many here are saying.

If Joran has a lot of conquests it would make sense. How many 17 year old boys can manage a lot of sexual conquests? Also, his mother Anita, what kind of mother would raise a son to be a sexual conquerer like that? She MUST have known he was doing acts like this.

My solution would be to book her and interrogate her, find out what she knows about JVDS's past as an alleged lothario.

In addition, they need to find the drug dealer and get info out of him to find out what JVDS's drugs of choice were.

[SP]

Or another girl who had this happen, or thinks she did, needs to step forward maybe.

Well they are saying Dad was involved with more than the cover up though

[Websleuthing]

Even if the father and the brothers were innocent of actually murdering NH, and I'm not sure she's actually murdered, however, I think she might be, and there are strong possibilities she is, they should all go down for aiding and abetting.

[Manfred]

Looked up the defintion of psycopath:

"Without help, potentially psychopathic children will become adults who never remain attached to anyone or anything for long. They may end up living a "predatory" lifestyle, feeling little or no regret, and having little or no remorse - except when they are caught or about to be locked up. A psychopath is not necessarily a bad person. But they are prone to have problems with society, rules, expectations and relationships.

A psychopath will use people for excitement, entertainment, to build their self-esteem and they invariably value people in terms of their material value (e.g. money, property, comfort, etc..). They can involve and get other people into trouble quickly and they seem to have no regret for their actions."

[Websleuthing]

Oh, the father has been involved with more than one coverup? Figures. This is not new to this family. The mother KNOWS something, BOOK HER AND INTEROGATE HER ARUBA POLICE and USA FBI. Sorry for the caps, but I'm saying that in case they are looking at the site.

[Websleuthing]

Florida Girl said it best when she quoted a Fox News profiler:

POWER RAPIST MENTALITY

[JimL]

Does this person have anything to do with it?? Key witness???

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=8576252&Mytoken=

He was the one who posted this on Joran's myspace account. The same who said he was a "psychopath", Dan, any thoughts?? (just speculation)

"jur du guy that have natalee how gud you am proud of mijn aruba now everybody thinking that is bad"

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=14905439&Mytoken=

Translated to:
you are a sick person, you are the devil himself

[JimL]

Also FYI from scaredmonkeys:

According to two major Dutch news sites, Van der Sloot sr. is accused of (accessory to) murder, manslaughter or kidnapping-resulting-in-death ("moord, doodslag of ontvoering met de dood tot gevolg").
Sadly, this would imply that the Aruba police assume that Natalee is no longer alive.

Dutch sources:
http://www.nos.nl/nos/artikelen/2005/06/art0000B0060700.html
http://www.nu.nl/news/546206/122/Nederlandse_rechter_op_Aruba_gearresteerd.html

[Websleuthing]

Jimi, that guy looks like the Cloes guy to me. I could be wrong, but that's what he looks like to me.

[Dar]

Dear Jim:

FYI
The link to my space that you refer to in your post is a scam. Tracked it back pranksters put it together does not belong to Joran or any of his circle just some kids playing around first appeared June 13th.

I think therefore I am

[bamamom]

I must go to bed. With no intention of offending anyone here...I ask simply that we all say a prayer for Natalee, and her amazing family tonight. If not for life..for peace. And if she is dead...hope she is smiling down from Heaven at how much her mother and father and so many others truely love her. May we all use this experience to talk to our children, be more aware of their actions...and help guide them to be good and loving beings. Good night. Please pray.

[JimL]

Dar,

Thanks for the clarification. Jumped the gun, but the reason why I posted it was because Dan orginally posted the statement under the title, "kids say the dardenst things." Find it in the recent archives.

Don't know the authenticity of it??? Thought maybe there was a link between the poster and the actual events.....would make sense if Joran was notorious for using GHB as his source for getting laid...

[Becka]

On his myspace account it says the Signup Date: 05/02/05.

[LornaD]

Jim, I am Babelfishing one of the news articles now and I think that it is Joran who is under suspicion for the kidnapping and murder.

[LornaD]

Difficult to make heads er tails of this:

ORANJESTAD - the Dutch right Paul of of the S. have been arrested Thursday on Aruba. That says Jan of of the streets to research LEADER. Its adjournment to make with the disappearance of the 18 person whose birthday it is American scholiere Natalee Holloway, meanwhile wide three weeks have suffered.

The 17 person whose birthday it is zoon of of of the S. is called Joran and more than two weeks was suffered arrested. He becomes suspicious of assassination, doodslag or removal with the death to consequence. Van Holloway has been lacking every track since they had disappeared after schoolreisje.

Extended In the night of Thursday on Friday (Dutch time) it is stipulated if the detention of the judge is extended with 48 hours. Its arrest is the seventh in this matter. Except Joran two of its friends fixed, the Surinamese brothers Deepak (21) sit and Satish (18) K. also 26 the person whose birthday it is Steve C., dj on a party chip, is still stuck. The two earlier apprehended keepers of a hotel are meanwhile on free feet. Them appeared make nothing with the matter to have.

Of which becomes right of of the S. suspicious, is not clear. He last week end two times were already interrogated by the police force. Influence The Public Prosecution Service prevented rather that the right its zoon in the prison visited. The public prosecutor was frightened that he could Joran influence. The mother could, however, at him on a visit.

Incorrect Joran, Deepak and Satish is the lasts which were identified in the gezelschap of Holloway. Of their original tale that them the scholiere after an evening step Aruba have shown and vervolgens have turned off her at its hotel, appeared be correct nothing. What there, however, is has happened still a complete riddle.

The police force goes there from that Holloway by an indictable offence for living has come no body has been also already found there. There is still gezocht with man and power to the little girl.

[LornaD]

Now this one does seem it may be saying VD Sloot Sr. is accused.

Right on Aruba the Dutch of assassination ORANJESTAD judge who is stuck on Aruba because of the disappearance of American scholiere suspected, is now a verdachte in the matter. The 53 person whose birthday it is man is accused of the medeplegen of assassination, doodslag or removal with the death to consequence.

The judge was taken up yesterday. He is the father of the 17 person whose birthday it is boy who already concerning the vermissing of the 18 person whose birthday it is Natalee Holloway vastzat. Others also three become suspicious. Holloway disappeared three weeks suffered after schoolreisje. The police force thinks that she has been killed. So far no track of the scholiere has been found.

[Mt. Brook Mom]

I think that the police or FBI should contact Joran's family physician to see if Joran was ever seen or being treated for a psychological or psychiatric disorder? Were any perscriptions ever written for him in reference to ADD or ADHD?

Does Joran have a Psychiatrist? (IF NOT HE SURE NEEDS ONE< ALONG WITH HIS DAD AND MOM)

Does Joran have a psychologist? Is he seen on a regular basis?

How was the obvious behavior defiant disorder being treated? Was it being ignored. This could be a form of neglect on the part of his parents.
Was Joran addicted to sex? Gambling? Achohol?

If it is true that Joran had received some sort of anger management treatment...then there had to most likely of been a Doctor that perscribed the treatment. And if so what anger is being referred to? Had Joran had a physical confrontation with his Mother? Dad? Had he assalted his parents?
And they had just not reported it to the police?

Something is wrong here again people....something
just wasn't right with Joran before he ever even met Natalee.

It is obvious to me that Joran's Mom was willing to overlook Jorans behavior because she loves him so much. Truth of this is that if she does love him so much then why hasn't she sought further help for him INSTEAD of letting him run wild on the Island? I mean lets face it...HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOCKED UP AT NIGHT! He should have been living inside of his parents home, not in the apartment next door.

And his Mom...I think she has an emotional disorder related maybe to stress. Has she ever had an emotional breakdown? She might be having one right now...with her son and husband both in jail...

Also too back to what I previously mentioned..
Paul Van Der Sloot does not look right to me.
Is he an acoholic? Why does he sweat so much?
Is he on drugs? What explained his mood swings
and behavior changes? What about the color of his
face. Red nose? Yellowish Color on his face.
Jaundice, liver disease? = Acoholism?
But the sweating? Diet? or again Drugs?
Something is right before our faces here.
Something..........

[Websleuthing]

Mt. Brook Mom, you bring up some great questions.

[Mary]

This has been and continues to be the mystery of "who done it" of all time. I have never heard of a case quite like it. It has a little of everything. All the makings for a book about it are right here on this site.
When it is all over, I will be the first to buy the book. But...
I hope it will have a happy ending, but i seem to agree with Natalee's real father. He is a strong man that is ready to accept the reality of what happened to Natalee. She is probably dead.
I am quite sad tonite for Natalee's mom. She refuses to give up on the fact NAT..is still alive. You cannot really blame her. She is just not ready to go there yet. Her life and family will never ever be the same. She will never have a real life anymore. Her life ended on May 30th. What a shame.:O(

[Mt. Brook Mom]

It just clicked in my head that Joran's Dad taught Joran how to gamble and had been seen in casino's with Joran. Kids learn from immitation
...did Joran get the sex interest from learned behavior exhibited by his father? Afterall doesn't he have an illigimate half brother?
The half brother was born during the marriage or before Paul Van Der Sloot's marriage to Anita.
Ok...so thats two for two now...so the next question is what about achohol and drugs...
Chances are high in my opinion that Paul Van Der Sloot may be an achoholic. Most likely he does drugs, don't know how to confirm this though...
but highly possible. And again these could be learned behaviors passed down to Joran by his father. Is Paul Van Der Sloot Joran's role model?
Is he who actually controls and runs their family?

[Orange]

I speak Dutch. I can confirm that according to the Dutch media, Paul van der Sloot is being held on suspicion of, together with others, murder, manslaughter and kidnapping leading to death.

[Hman]

I think they should tell Joran that his dad couldn't take the pressure so he took his own life - maybe that would make Joran start talking. That would be a horrible lie but this is a horrible crime.

[Matt]

Hi Orange,
Thanks. Yes I agree. Maruane Croes, the spokesperson for the Aruba Prosecutor's office said on a TV News show (Hannity and Colmes, FOX news) that PVDS was arrested on suspicion of the same charges as the four others-nawly, murder, kidnapping for murder etc.

[SP]

I wonder what evidence they have on Dad? Or did someone point a finger?... What do you think?

[JustMe]

Just a thought.

Is it possible that Joran had an apartment attached to his parents' house because they did not trust him to be with them while the rest of the family was asleep?

[Tracy]

I read on the Misfitting blog that Loretta, who has a personal relationship of some sort with Gene Ralston - who helped search for Laci Peterson - Apparently Ralston is on his way to Aruba with his side scan sonar equipment to search for Natalee. She has heard that there is some suspicion that Natalee was placed in an old beat up car and pushed into a body of water. Anybody hear anything like that elsewhere?

[Hman]

I couldn't see anyone putting her into a car and pushing the car off into the water. This would turn a small object into a very large one. I would also think that would cause an oil slick on the surface from the gas and oil.

[JustMe]

C'mon, Mt. Brook Mom. I made my last post in jest.

I have been convinced from the start that Joran is the person through whom the investigation must lead. But you made a lot of insinuations against both Van der Sloot the Elder and Younger without any substantiation whatsoever. You discredit yourself and your argument when you do that.

I know that you are frustrated. So am I. I have a thing about protecting pretty girls from Alabama as my wife is one herself. But don't suggest things without even a scintilla of evidence to support what you say.

[Mt. Brook Mom]

Here is where I think we are all with this case.

Being optomistic, and considering the best of the best conclusions for this mystery is...

1. Natalee was sixtuplet, or more times kidnapped
Once kidnapped by Joran
Two and Three Kidnapped by the Indian Bro's
Four by Paulus
Five by Croess
Six ??? Whomever got ahold of her next, and so
on etc.
I think many more are involved at this point in the timeline....over the days that have passed since her disappearance.
And eventually where ever she end up...somewhere along this way with this case, she will either be found, escape or just appear somewhere...THIS IS OUR BEST HOPE AT THIS POINT...Natalee shall return!

2. She is Dead...worst scenario...overdosed, killed, fell in the ocean where sharks are..
Didn't the boys say they were taking her to see the sharks?

I say lets ALL KEEP THE FAITH AND HOPE ALIVE FOR NATALEE>>>LETS ALL REMEMBER to keep she and her family and those out looking for Natalee in our prayers...Also lets pray for anyone who might have her...that they are led to return her.

I am going to put my faith in the Lord and that
Natalee shall return...

Here is what really makes me mad...I believe
that the two bro's picked Joran up at his house at 11:30 that night he slipped out..he headed out with them to Carlos and Charlies with NATALEE IN MIND...The two bro.'s were standing at the door waiting on Joran...when he left with Natalee. I think that when Natalee staggered on the dance floor that Joran saw it just as others..he knew that was his QUE, to get Natalee out of there
quickly as possible...he had the two brothers there with him...I believe they knew what Joran was up to with the date rape drug...I think up to this point it was all planned out by Joran....

[brian]

TRACY

this is of course pure speculation but a car could be obtained by maybe one of the kalpoes through their parents business (they import cars back and forth between venezuala and aruba).

[JustMe]

Tracy, Loretta is selling her book that she wrote proving that Scott Peterson is guilty. Damn! I didn't know that.

She also insists that Natalee will be found close to the lighthouse on Arashi Beach. She banned me for questioning that. Hopefully, time will prove which one of us is wrong.

[Hman]

I would think that there would be only a few areas along the Aruba beach that would be deep enough to sink a car in at and I would also tend to think that these deep areas would have been some of the first places the authorities would have searched. If the water in Aruba is as clear as it is in the Florida Keys, a sunken car would be easily spotted. I think this whole idea of putting her into a car and driving it into the water is a complete joke.

[Tracy]

I don't know of any such predictions, JustMe, sorry. I just read that and thought it might be of some interest. I don't think that Gene Ralston would share something lightly, from the reputation he seems to have, nor does it sound as though he was going to go at all, but someone convinced him that it was worth it.

I personally don't have anything invested in being right or wrong, particularly when we are talking about this girl's life. I would actually be quite GLAD that these predictions prove to be false, and that she is alive and well.

[Lori]

Maybe, just maybe, it is the elder Van Der Sloot that is the psychopath or real suspect here. Maybe Joran is his gopher -- goes out and picks out a girl, slips her a date rape drug, and then takes her to a place where his dad is waiting. Then Joran leaves and daddy has his way????? But this time, something bad happens, and dad calls Joran to pick HIM up.....

You never know in today's world what sick and twisted things go on in families and the people that cover up for them???

I pray they find Natalee safe, but hope is diminishing with every day that passes. I hope her family finds peace real soon. God Bless.

[Harry]

Despite all the blogs and media reports since my last post, the fact remains, as the Ministry of Justice's attorney contends, the police have nothing. If this were not the Napoleonic Code, all those in custody would have been released long ago.

[Hman]

No offense Tracy and I am not trying to be right or prove you wrong. I was just giving my two cents on the suject. The way I read your post was that you got that info from a friend who got it from a friend. You know how that story goes...by the time it goes from friend to friend, the story has already changed 5 times.
It would just be very hard for me to believe that the locals would not have noticed a newly sunken car in their crystal clear waters.
Thanks for sharing the info that you got with all of us. I read it all but believe only about half. :)
Harley

[Mt. Brook Mom]

We need John Gresham...perhaps he could unravel
all of the scenario's of what, when, where and how of Natalee's fate.

Afterall he is an excellent writer and an attorney.

[Websleuthing]

I found this on the aruba.com msg board

Access to information in pre-trial stage

48. No obligation by the prosecutor a/o investigating officers to disclose details of investigation to third parties, incl. the media

49. Press conferences held by prosecution not customary

50. Prosecutor’s office has limited authority to disclose details of the investigation to the suspects

Legal age & prosecution

51. Below 18 years is considered a minor

52. In principle no jail time, but if convicted of a felony, placed at disposal of the Government a/o equivalent to “juvenile hall” a/o in combination with half of an adult sentence. In case of life sentence, maximum of 10 years

[Jenifer D.]

I'm a G.I. stationed in Seoul Korea and I have been following this story VERY closely. Now, I have a few questions: 1) Why in THE hell would the people designated as chaperones let any of these children wander off with the locals unsupervised? 2) Did the students get briefed on where they were going and the dangers they may encounter? 3) Where did Natalee get it in her head to go off with strangers without one of her school-mates in tow to ensure she got back on time to catch her flight back to the U.S.? I think her parents didn't school her on strangers very well, I could care less if she's 18; that does not mean she's grown up. I would call this a hard lesson learned for her parents and any other parents who are foolish enough to entrust their child with strangers on an overseas trip. :-(

[JustMe]

Tracy, I apologize if I offended you (and I can see how I did).

If you want to see Loretta's original prediction then you can find it on her blog. I don't go there anymore.

[Florida Girl]

websleuth - if you are still here email me, i have something to share... nothing to do with case, but good for troll thing....

[Websleuthing]

I found this on the official aruba.com message board, it's chilling. DAN/FBI/Aruba police please NOTE THIS:

http://www.aruba.com/msgbrd/read.php?f=1&i=129000&t=129000

Re: Natalee Holloway Only Thread
Author: Suds (---.phil.east.verizon.net)
Date: 06-21-05 15:29

To Whom It May Concern;

I posted these two tips on a news station but will pass them on again to be certain they get to the proper authorities...
1. While visiting Aruba Feb 05 we went to Arashi beach one day. We met a young man I believe to be Jordan Van Der Sloot who was walking a large dog on the beach. My two kids were very excited to see the dog and enjoyed giving him a few pats as they love dogs. In the ensuing conversation this individual commented that he was house sitting and therefore caring for the owners dog as well. I wondered last night, if in fact the police and others investigating Natalees disapearance were aware that this person may have had access to an unoccupied residence in that area, where a crime could have taken place.

#2. Not far from Arashi Beach, out on the point beyond the CA lighthouse is a formation in the rocks with a post and marker, "Augustino Gerrman". This particular area is very dangerous as it is a extremely steep and deep "V" formation in the rocky coast. The surf has carved a very deep cavity or cave into the bedrock there. From the sound of the heavy surf crashing into the rock and compressing the air inside the cavity I would venture to guess that the cave could easily extend 30 to 40 feet under the face of the shelf above. If one were thrown into the water there it would be impossible to swim out of the area and in all likelihood would wind up smashed on the rocks well inside the cave out of sight. This particular area would be incredibily difficult and dangerous to throughly search out. Local conditions would make it ideal from a disposal standpoint.

Suds

Reply To This Mess

[LornaD]

Jenifer D, with all due respect and more; some people do consider an 18 year old an adult, including the U.S. Army, I believe. I am not saying I do or do not agree with that, just making a statement.

As for the chaperones, it has been stated many, many times that the chaperones were not there to shadow the students or even to ride herd loosely over them. That was understood and agreed to by students and parents BEFORE the trip. Beth's family have on a number of occasions confirmed this and said they lay no blame whatsoever on the chaperones or Natalee's friends.

The perpetrators, whomever they may be, own the blame. -

[Mt. Brook Mom]

Jennifer D.

We are confident that Natalee was given a date rape drug. There were two groups of kids at the resturant/bar...one group thought Natalee was with them and the other thought that Natalee was with them... turns out she had be led out of the resturant and into the car...I am not even sure
that she really knew what was happening...not sure how the drug actually affected her.

It is a common practice these days that kids travel in groups in Mt. Brook. Due to the date rape drug..it has been determined that Natalee was greatly affected by the drug apparently...but no one knew until she vanished...except those that had given her the drug.

You might be interested in reading up on date rape drugs and their effects. Thing with Van Der Sloot was Pre-meditated. He was obviously determined to add Natalee to his "conquest list"

[JustMe]

Jenifer, you hit the nail on the head.

Basically the childrens' parents (and they are children) sent them to Aruba to smoke, get s**t faced drunk and do whatever without any adult supervision. Don't blame it on the chaperones. The chaperones, from what I have heard and read, did more supervising than was required under the terms that the parents agreed to.

If you want to trace this back to the source of the problem it is the parents who sent their children to Aruba without proper supervision so that the kids could do anything and everything that they cannot legally do in the United States.

When I graduated from high school three of my friends and I went to Kentucky Lake -- and we were damn glad to be there (in a dry county).

[Tazman]

Look at the interview again of J's parents by Greta. J's mom's expressions look fierce when she is looking at her husband. And he is looking too cool & detached. She knows something!!!

[Florida Girl]

that website for the hope for natalee bracelets

http://wzzk.com/event_guide/nataleehollowaybracelets.html

it says:

"The Natalee Holloway Trust Recovery Fund was established to help offset the family's expenses while searching for her. The family has also expressed an interest in creating a future scholarship program to honor Natalee. "

do they know something already? Notice the last sentence - am I reading too much into it or what?

[Lori]

PVDS has guilt written all over his face. He told the boys he was more use to them on the outside of jail and that's how he got them to lie and cover up what happened. He made empty promises to them that he would get them out of this. I don't think the Kalpoe brothers know the extent of what the VDS's are involved in. For all they may know, it was Joran. But I have a very strong intuition it is the elder VDS that is the one who committed the crime and the others were tricked into covering it up. Mark my words, folks, this is more than likely what happened.

Or maybe I am just as confused and presuming of things I have no knowledge of like everyone else on these posts. Just something to ponder.