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Update:

police confirm the following have been found at the search scene: Women’s underwear

Condoms

Pieces of duct tape

Micky John declared yesterday that the two brothers confessed to him.

After leaving Arashi /Lighthouse, they left Natalee with Joran at Fisher's mans hut a beach close to the Hyatt. They went to swim at that beach.

That was the last time they saw Natalee. They went home and went to the internet to chat. After one hour, they received a message from Joran that stated:  "I have something to tell you"

This was statement of Micky John, detainee, that helped to secure his freedom yesterday.

Comments

[jay]

Dan: I just heard Rick Leventhal (Fox) say "two." Did he get this from you?

[Cyndi]

Dan, You are doing an incredible job, especially given that you work too. Your site has been more informative than all the news channels. This is one of the saddest, most horrifying crime stories I have ever followed. Younger girls please take note. And for the love of God will those of you who have critiqued this girl please put your sister/wife/daughter/friend's face on her and then think about making your comments? Yes, we have freedom of speech but this world has no manners anymore. Natalee has friends and possibly family who I'm sure have read these comments as well. Shame on you.

NO ONE deserves what happened to her for any reason. A bright young girl with her whole life ahead of her made a decision which ended her life, something I'm sure she never thought would happen, we never think like that in our teens. Many women are raped without flirting with their attackers, what a cruel comment. My heart is breaking for her family and friends, I have a good friend who was murdered and I know what it is like, it's a completely different loss than illness or anything else. Thank you again for working so hard to keep us informed.

[observer]

pw:

a) I have $500 and choose to leave it on a park bench in Manhattan, someone comes by and takes the money.

b) I have $500 protected in a safe in my house and a burgler broke in and threatened to kill me if I didn't hand her the money.

Are there differences in these cases?

[B]

What is a "compromising" situation? It is the answer on this question were KayRay fails.
For me being in unknown place without few of your friends, unfortunately, is a "compromising" situation. However, it should not be. Why would going to any public place, even alone, even with intention to flirt, be a "compromising" situation? No clue, but it is.

Therefore, it is not a person who flirts that is the problem, or drinks for that matter, it is people that find flirting invitation to do bad things that are the problem.

[Ria]

Your point???

[KayRay]

OMG people stop being so simple minded and ganging up on me. Did you read my damn post? I said NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED. I am in college and they dont just let me make up facts...they GIVE me facts. I cant help that most girls targeted for rape fit a certain profile. I CANT HELP THAT. Get off of me, I was only stating the facts and trying to see if anything connected here.

Some of you need to think outside of the box and realize that BAD stuff happens to good people and BAD people...neither of which we know who she was. All I am reading and YOU are reading are rumors.

So take this as an apology if you want, but I never said she deserved it at all. In fact, I am totally against something like that happenening and think it is one of hte worst crimes on Earth. Please start reading my posts wiht a more open mind instead of acting like I am promoting what could have happened to her or her past life had anything to do with it.

[antoine]

Observer:

End result is the same, likelyhood of losing the money in each scenario is 99.9% verses 0.01% respectively, what's your point?

[Ria]

Hang in there KayRay! You merely "shared" and obviously was taken the wrong way! I'm not judging you...

It's OK TO AGREE TO DISAGREE!!!

[S]

Kay Ray I think you are very naive.

[KayRay]

A comprimising situation is being drunk in a foreign country and leaving ALONE with a guy you have known only for hours in a bar. I think using the buddy system would have helped her chances a lot...it's a second opinion and someone that could have stuck around.

People, one more time, I am saying everything you are. We are in agreement here, yet you still gang up on me and act like I am a low life. No one deserves this.

[Ria]

I do agree with you on that KayRay! Don't put yourself in a "situation" that may be hurtful/harmful to you. Such as...getting into a car with strange men; being intoxicated in a foreign country, florida, california, anywhere, etc...

My question is...where were her "best friends" to say - "hey Natalee, NO, you are coming with us - NOW." Why didn't anyone stop her?

[pw]

KayRay,

According to family and friends who were there, she was NOT drunk, and she left with a large group of her friends to return to the hotel. She told a girlfriend she was going back to the hotel. WHO SAYS SHE WILLINGLY WENT WITH THE THREE BOYS?????

OBSERVER,

Are you comparing a rape victim's actions/personality/clothing/etc. to leaving $500 in a public place. Your little "riddle" is heartless and shallow.

[Tanya]

That is better explained. Error in judgement she did make I agree. Arubas reputation has always been safe and she asumed it was still so apparently.

[KayRay]

Thank you because I was never on the other side of this argument. I feel so horrible for this family and from the very beginning hoped they find the animal responsible for harming this girl. No matter what the situation was, no one deserves to be done this way. Its even sadder that she was beginning a new stage in her life and someone else took that away from her. I tink this is all horrible and was only trying to relay information i had read on other blogs and entries. I again apologize and sympathize with ohters who have experience similiar situations.

[js]

Ya know...I have lurked for days and have to comment here. I have been drawn to this case from the first day I heard of it...The more I read about NH's situation the more I felt drawn in. Here's why...When in school (college) I used to frequent a certain bar/dancehall on a regular basis. There were lots of "regulars." You knew folks by their first name and it was fun. We drank a lot - and danced till they kicked us out. One night - after doing this for 3 years - my friends left without me...when I realized they had gone, I had to find a ride home. The guy I had been dancing with offered to give me a ride. We were kissing and such at the club. He didn't give me a ride to my house, but to his. When we went to get into his car there were his three roommates who hopped in right after us. I was nervous, but didn't do anything probably because of impaired judgement. I was 22 years old even! I was assaulted that night...12 years ago. It could have been worse and I did make it home. I was very drunk - wasted. I kissed him. I did not ask for it...ever.

[Ria]

Some aren't very focused are they PW? I'm still waiting to here Observers "point" on that so called question(s)!!!

[Susie]

Ria - get over it

[t b]

Let's get back to the search for NH and the facts out of Aruba. Please take your personal stories to another thread in a chat room please. I really do feel for your personal tragedies, but this blog is for information pertaining to NH.

Thanks for all the hard work and efforts Dan. I think that if anything breaks, we will hear of it here first.

[pw]

I just don't understand how people jumped to the conclusion that Natalee was drunk and that she left willingly with Joran. The only people who said she willingly left with them are Joran and the brothers, who have been exposed as liars.

Again, the students on the trip said Natalee was exiting the bar with a large group of people. She told a friend she was going back to the hotel with a group of the students. She never made it back. Those are the facts. NO ONE SAW HER WILLINGLY ENTER A CAR WITH JORAN. (not trying to shout; I just don't know how to boldface or underline)

[katy]

I keep hearing, why did the young surinamese suspect tell the other man they were holding and not police? Please, anyone who has lived in Mexico, South America, the guy, Joran, whose dad is a judge, holds a lot of weight! The police probably don't want to know the truth! They aren't asking the right people the right questions obviously. No one would be looking out where they took her, if the guy who was released had not spoken to the international press! The police are probably instructed not to find the truth! These 3rd world countries have thier own way of doing things, it is not an "American" way of doing things. They protect who they want to protect, by doing nothing. Just think, if Natalie's mom had not been in their face, how far do you think they would be with this investigation? A kid found the underwear, tape, condoms.... not the police .... think about it.

[katy]

I keep hearing, why did the young surinamese suspect tell the other man they were holding and not police? Please, anyone who has lived in Mexico, South America, the guy, Joran, whose dad is a judge, holds a lot of weight! The police probably don't want to know the truth! They aren't asking the right people the right questions obviously. No one would be looking out where they took her, if the guy who was released had not spoken to the international press! The police are probably instructed not to find the truth! These 3rd world countries have thier own way of doing things, it is not an "American" way of doing things. They protect who they want to protect, by doing nothing. Just think, if Natalie's mom had not been in their face, how far do you think they would be with this investigation? A kid found the underwear, tape, condoms.... not the police .... think about it.

[KayRay]

I dont know if she left willingly, I was not there. For all I know they could have told her that if she didnt leave the bar with them then they would kill her. They could have threatened her somehow. I dont know. Witnesses say she seemed okay before she left.

[intrigued]

I think many people are missing the point here. Who cares if the girl was flirtatious or not, if she had a crazy past or not, the fact is a girl is missing (and presumed dead) and noone has answers. That is scary!!!! and for her to go missing with friends, fellow students, and chaperones in the bar is just crazy to me. How do you allow your friend to leave a bar alone with someone she only knows for a couple of hours, people have been quoted as saying is "off" and had a scuffle with your friends? The only likely concluusion I can see is that she was drunk, drugged, raped, and killed. And that is just sad and no matter who she was (a "good" girl or a "bad" girl and who are we to judge that), she did not deserve this outcome.

[observer]

antoine:

my point is obvious. there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to crimes. there are elements of risk that people either address or ignore. in my example, one person was prudent and took precautions and the other was unaware of normal risks. crimes happed to both types of people, but not with the same likelihood.

within the context of this thread i would include taking drinks from people who have no interest in your life, getting intoxicated and into cars with people you don't know, as factors that increase the risk of something bad happening.

btw: you may want to check your math. what happened to the other 0.09%

[Ria]

i read yesterday that joran's father is not a judge!

[mo]

This site has been very informative about the case, and constantly ahead of MSM. To keep the flow of information constant, would the people discussing the victim and her past please stop?

[Ria]

FOX NEWS UPDATE:

30 police officers or more searching for more than 2 1/2 hours now...two of the suspects shared that news with that security guard! fire dept. is out there - they are going to drain water from a pond.

[tideroller]

I do have to question why the two brothers would open up to the security guard. Cui bono? It doesn't make sense. Unless they wanted the information out and why would they? Someone please explain or give your ideas on this. It makes me think this may be one more false lead.

[kh]

i think the point is that no matter how the money was stolen - it was still stolen. whether nh was on the straight and narrow and had never so much as kissed a boy, or whether nh was a prostitute, drug user, thief, etc...the end result is still the same. she may have been dragged kicking and screaming from c&c's - she may have gone williningly with the intent of sleeping with all of them - does it really matter??? she's missing, the outlook isn't good, and it makes me nauseous to think for one second that this would be about her and her promiscuity (or lack of, since the only one who truly knows the type of person nh is/was, is nh herself).

[lawbster]

i'm trying to think like and 18 year old. but if one of your friends told you they had killed someone or been in an accident and a girl died, would you go help them bury the person? and conceal evidence?

do we know yet if they actually found this message from joran and the chat stuff? can that be time logged and verified? i suppose since they took the computers they'll look for all the activity since the night she went missing, if not before.

[Don]

I thought i read somewhere that natalee's roommate on the trip didnt report her missing because during the 5 nights they were in aruba, natalee slept in her own bed only once, the first night they were in aruba. So the roommate naturally thought natalee was out on a booty call and didnt want to get natalee in trouble?
Wasnt there another story going around that Natalee slept with one of her friend's boyfriends on the 2nd night they were in aruba and there was some sort of arguement between natalee and some of the other girls on the trip after that because of what she had done?
Both of these stories, if true, seem to contradict the perception that has been set forth that Natalee was a shy and naive girl.

[KayRay]

from what i have read, joran and the brothers werent that great of friends. they hung out a good bit at clubs and bars but werent really that close. this may not be true info, just what i have read. if this is true, then i know i wouldnt help him bury it unless my life was threatened...or possibly joran could have said dont worry my dad is a judge and we will never get caught- if you dont help i will kill you too. not much info has been released about who joran was except that he liked to drink and go to bars and meet women.

[Don]

Has it been confirmed if these were used condoms that were found?

[pw]

lawbster,

that is what I cannot figure out. Why would the brothers put themselves at risk and get involved in the incident. I think they are all three involved. They all three tried to blame the guards. When that fell apart, they turned on each other. Of course, blood is thicker than water, so the brothers will stick together. Dutch boy is trying to exonerate himself by implicating the brothers, and the brothers are trying to implicate Dutch boy. As in the Lacy Peterson case, we may never know what actually happened. All we know is a young woman is missing and feared dead. The rest is pure speculation.

[KayRay]

they said "used condoms"...to me it just looked like two unused durex condoms. they did say "used".

[jay]

I had read that his father was not a judge. Also, imo, i just think that its a bunch of bull, why not tell the authorities if it could get you out of jail. why wait this long to say anything period...

[AJ]

Where is everyone seeing pictures of condoms and panties at?

[Nicky]

My thoughts on this:

I think that Joran possibly used GHB, and discreetly led her out of the club to the vehicle. At that time the 2 surinamese brothers took Natalee and Joran to the location and raped and killed her. I dont know if all 3 brothers were involved, but I would highly doubt it. I think all this rests on Joran and that the 2 brothers are accessories after the fact.

[antoine]

Observer:
Guess I owe you a decimal point, thanks for the correction. I do not disagree with your point on prudence and likelyhood...
I lived there, in Aruba, for a couple of years and like many vacation locations, several of which I have also lived, hawaii, gibralter, south of spain, it is very common to see women of all ages and backgrounds dropping their guard, the way they behave on vacation is certainly not typical of their behaviour when at home, wherever that may be. And no disrespect for any intended.
Under no circumsatnces can this young woman be held accountable for what happened to her. She is / was by all accounts a pleasant inteligent responsible young woman who never anticipated that something bad could happen to her. Could she have avoided it? Yes, I suppose she could have! But that really is not the issue here, the issue, in my opinion, is that after two weeks this young woman has not been found and that the uncontrolled information from Aruba has perhaps damaged the investigation and ensuing legal case and at a minimum has resulted in much wild and unfounded speculation.

[pw]

Don,

From what I have determined from perusing the blogs, those things you noted are rumors that Joran's friends posted to various websites in an effort to help their friend get off the hook. On scaredmonkeys and tripadvisor blogs, Natalee's friends have been posting comments that they are very upset about all the rumors tainting Natalee's personality. The poor girl isn't around to defend herself. Have a heart.

[marty]

Another point: This all happened on the last day of her trip, only hours before her scheduled departure. If I was a local and wanted to force a tourist to have sex I couldn't imagine a better time to do it!!

[Ria]

FOX NEWS UPDATE:
New developments - a tip was called in to the police is what they said! Police dogs are there; fire department. The two brothers say they dropped Joran and Natalee off by the Marriott the night Natalee disappeared. Three local guys found the panties, condoms and other evidence...

they dropped off generator and pump to drain pond that is 4 to 6 ft. deep.

[KayRay]

so what does everyone think the chances of her being found alive are? the only way i can see possible is if these guys are telling the truth and she was captured by people who run those slave and prostitute camps...i read abou that on msnbc about the girl in 1998 that was captured. a navy seaman saw her years later in a brothel and didn tknow she was missing...the girl said she needed help but i dont think was taken seriosly. years later he saw a poster wiht her on it and contacts the family and describes her tattoos and all.

anyways, at this point do you think there are any chances of survival?

[Bullshark]

Alright, enough of the rumor BS. "What I heard" or "what I read" does not make anything fact. Please keep it to yourself or take it to one of the other sites where rumors are welcomed. This site has been an excellent source of good info, please don't poison it. As for why the boy(s) would run his mouth; I don't know why it is, but people, especially young people, run their mouth when they are locked up. After spending some time in jail and prison, I noticed how guys would open up to strangers about their cases, especially at the county jail level. It has always struck me as odd, and I don't know if it is a bragging thing, or a despair thing. I believe that is why often police will actually place people in a cell block to befriend someone they need the "dirt" on.

[Ria]

They are talking again with the man who found this evidence..found pink panties with flowers on it, condoms, duct tape. He said they found the evidence before the police got there! He said when he went to go call the police and came out of the woods that the police were already there...the police asked him to leave this evidence in police hands now! The reporter asked him "is this something you would normally come across/find in this area?" the young man said "no; nothing goes on around here." (the guys seems a bit shadey to me)!

i'm confused...i thought that this area was a place like "lovers lane" from other postings.

[KayRay]

bullshark:

this is a place to share comments, and frankly, you just did what you accused people of doing. saying what you BELIEVE happens in such and such situation. i dont think there is anything wrong with stating you saw certain things somewhere and read this and that...sites like this are out there that post unknown info- who knows what real or not at this point. nothing is wrong with sharing it unless its something really crazy to stir up a mess on purpose

[marty]

You can bet that any beach near a hotel in a vacation area gets plenty of action. I know I always get hot action from the wife on vacation on a nice beach after a few drinks and I am sure I am not the only one...

[KayRay]

tmi

[jay]

Antoine is right on the $$$: "the issue, in my opinion, is that after two weeks this young woman has not been found and that the uncontrolled information from Aruba has perhaps damaged the investigation and ensuing legal case and at a minimum has resulted in much wild and unfounded speculation."

And folks, you're continuing the "wild and unfounded speculation" by quoting the main stream media. They know nothing more than you do. This is a nightmare for the family, made worse by unfounded rumor and innuendo.

[Don]

They should check out this guy who found the panties. Does he have a connecto to Vandersloot or the Kalpoes? Seems odd walking in a fairly rugged area and you find some panties. What made him look there? It does sound strange/fishy?