John 8:32, Shaw And Byron

I've often characterized what I have been up to here as a search for truth. At least in part, perhaps, as I have always unquestioningly admired the following quotation.

John 8:32 "And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Perhaps. But tonight the statement has, for me, a newly discovered corollary which could be in need of some pondering. By definition, the greatness of any new potential freedom must always be matched by what is the greatness of your existing prison.

So, a question for my readers - assuming you discovered this previously unconsidered duality to the nature of truth-seeking, would you embrace the harsh reality of George Bernard Shaw: "All great truths begin as blasphemies," or cozy up to the practical considerations of Lord Byron: "Truth is a gem that is found at a great depth; whilst on the surface of this world, all things are weighed by the false scale of custom"?

Comments

[observer]

I've been posting in both Scared Monkeys and this site the last couple of weeks. I noticed some resentment on this board of the Monkeys when their site crashed last week.

Question - What's the difference btw the Monkeys posters and the Reihl World posters (or posts)? Why do some here not like the Monkeys?

Question - More substantively, what's the current reasonable theory of the case? It seems like JVDS has 45 minutes between the time the brothers dropped him and HN off somewhere and when JVDS called Deepak telling him he was going home. Can you formulate a scenrio under which he killed her in that time frame (i can - they dropped her off, he made a move on her, and she suffocated; he called for help on either the brothers or his dad). If JVDS instead took her to a party later where she was raped and killed, can the attendees there be brought it?

Either way, JVDS still holds the key to knowledge about what happened to her?

Does Aruba have some sort of witness protection program? Why do you think will happen to JVDS if he is released next Tuesday?

[Just Asking]

worldJOURNIER - you might want to check some of the facts you have included. I have read in more than one report that a few of your facts have indeed been discredited? ie: He did not throw anyone thru a window. He did throw someone against a window. This might not seem like a huge discrepancy to some, but if you are going to put yourself out there and point-blank state something as a fact, then should you be sure of the details first??

[Not a Hand Wringer.]

Well, the monkeys posters are speculating with limited actual factual knowledge, about what happened. Driven to a frenzy by a media that's also obsessed with spreading gossip about the case, the monkey's posters are now convinced that everyone who's ever worn a wooden-shoe is involved in a cover-up.

Wait...hang on,

I guess there is no difference between the two DB's.

[Dman]

Observer:

Aruba has no crime and their system of justice does not permit plea bargining therefore they have no need for a witness protection program.

If Joran is released w/o a confessed murder in jail for this case or Natalee's reappearance...he will need 24 hour protection from the media or those that would just want to beat the crap out of him or worse.

Given all the publicity this case has recieved...I do not know where he and his family could go to blend in....his only option may be to go into the military if they would take him.

[Not a Hand Wringer.]

Well, the monkeys posters are speculating with limited actual factual knowledge, about what happened. Driven to a frenzy by a media that's also obsessed with spreading gossip and innuendo about the case, the monkey's posters are now convinced that everyone and anyone who's ever worn a wooden-shoe is involved in a cover-up.

Wait...hang on,

I guess there is no difference between the two DB's

[Getagrip]

bamawings:
You are mistaken, Dutch law, the same one that Aruba employs, is the same as American and Canadian law in that you are innocent until proven guilty. The burden lies on the prosecution to prove that the suspects are guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt <-- not sure about this last part in parentheses, but 100% sure about the former comments)

[true justice]

Observer - I don't think anyone here doesn't "like" the monkeys. As a matter-of-fact, many of us routinely check both boards. However, the monkeys that chose to "visit" came on like an INVASION in full force. They simply took over the board. They were grossly and sometimes profanely rude. If you notice this board genuinely has intelligent discussions and tres to analyze the facts. The invaders were mostly chit-chatting and not contributing anything constructive to the board. In addition, a ton of trolls came with them. It was a nightmare! I have never before been a witness to such flagrant rudeness and lack of consideration from a group of people anywhere in my life. That's it in a nutshell. When you visit someone you should do so without forgetting the basic rules of common courtesy.

[right on time]

true justice: it is imposible to "take over" any board. All are welcome. Trolls can be found anywhere. This is not your living room. It is an internationally accessible forum.

Whereas I can understand that some of the comments and "chit chatting" can be both offensive and mundane,as long as they dont say anything particularly heinous or offensive or threatening,they are allowed to blog with the rest of us.

Are you suggesting that everyone should be like you?

That would probably be your worst nightmare.

Imagine waking up one day and everyone was you?

I rest my case. lol

[Moscow girl]

Interesting thought on "truth" are expressed in a movie by Akira Kirosawa "Rashamon":

3 people, all witnessed a confrontation which resulted in murder. Each of the 3 had no reasons to lie and were telling the truth. All 3 stories are different.

Truth can be also a matter of perception of reality.

(By the way, to few poster how are A-S-S-U-M-E-ing that all people are religious, please stop saying "We're all god's children"..... I am not a god's child. You are free to think you are, but don't swipe me into a religion).

[FreeWill]

Hello all

[FreeWill]

pray.....pray

[SharkAttack]

Dan Dan Dan......Seems as though you have failed once again....Another innocent chatter banned for life and I am still here......

[Shark Attack]

In case you did not get to see my post from earlier that Dan the Fag removed...I revieled who killed Natalee Holloway...It was Dan himself after finding his gay lover Joran having an innocent chat with Natalee on the beach...

[tennessean]

Okay, I'm stumped. Dan, are you implying that knowing the truth may be far harder on the Holloway/Twitty families than remaining in their "prison" of not knowing? And do you have information leading to your pondering that you'll be able to share soon? You've thoroughly confused me...

Still praying for Natalee/family/friends/loved ones here in Tennessee.

[Shark Attack]

Dan is going to come clean by 8pm

[Shark Attack]

Dan.....you should clear your banned IP address list, many innocent have been shut off by you.

[Shark Attack]

Dan is the man that will find himself pondering....What in the hell just happened and how in the hell am I going to fix it?????

[SharkAttack]

good bye for now DAAAAANNNNYYY BOYYYYYYYY

[Garza]

In my humble opinion, there are very few that actually seek the truth. Most people believe what they want to believe.

John 8:45-49 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. How many have been put down because they have told the truth? Mankind has gotten to the point that they would rather believe a lie instead of believing the truth. Mans truth is short lived and it is cankerous and moth eaten.

[CaveCricket]

I guess I am a "monkey" as that is there first blog i posted at, but i certainly didnt mean to offend anyone. if we seemed to chit chat it was only becasue somehow we all ( most) managed to meet back up even tho monkeys crashed. we happen to like eachother. anyways, just wanted to let everyone know that i also enjoy this blog and if i am not welcome then please let me know '
thanks
-Jenn

[harry]

Rashamon is a superb example of how truth is perceived. However, in this case, many perceptions are being ignored.

[Bobup]

500 cops for 72,000 sounds like a country club for donut eating lazy asses, will have shut down Dunkin Donuts to get them to do anything

[Seeksthetruth]

Here is what has to be done, since we cannot get the government of Aruba to cooperate...I feel bad that we have to punish innocent people, but to get the message across, we must no go to Aurba, Okay, yeah I know we are hurting innocent people trying to make a honest living, but if they innocent put the heat on their government this will get done. We will most likely never know the truth but PVDS and JVDS need to tell where Natalee is and tell NOW.

[maine]

planning on selling our time share and talking my aunt into selling her home- and we have 11 additional time shares- breaks my heart - i love it there but heck- they dont care about our tourism why shouldnt i put the $$ into our own country, I always thought they liked us - till a few years ago, it had been getting worse and this is the unfortunate, but perect excuse for getting out- hope that someday the island can turn back to want it was in the 7-=80's...

[Avenger]

Maine, how much do you want for the timeshares?

[maine]

in my opinion world journier- this jordan fellow would blame a few security guards for thropwing anyone against any window- not him- he was at home, being a good boy practicing his poker (oh brother)

[KDM]

seeksthetruth - Don't go to Idaho s well because the police there have yet to find the two very young (8&9 year olds) missing from a true murder scene. It has been more than a month and we have heard nothing from the police there! I am sure we can find other places... a list should be put up immediately that alerts all peoples everywhere of unsolved cases! Hey yeah and what about the girl found working in Sams Club who just walked away from school in Texas seven years ago? They never found her ... and she was alive to make tracks! Texas is definitely a place we now have to boycott!
Yowza!

Thank god that Bonita and NotaHandWringer are here or I'd be worried that there was not one sensible person on the computer today!

[maine]

kdm- it isnt a matter of being sensible- we ADMIT we have problems in the us - at least we ADMIT IT, some of these folks are in denial- and it is disrespectful

[maine]

o only own two weeks- im letting my husband put it on the net- owr friends and family are incharge of the others... week 13 & 14 playa linda

[maine]

aveng- i only own week 12 +13 playa linda- my husband is in charge of that, but i have talked 6 of our friends into their purchases- never mind family- what happened to this island?

[Moscow girl]

Posted by: maine
"planning on selling our time share and talking my aunt into selling her home- and we have 11 additional time shares- breaks my heart - i love it there but heck- they dont care about our tourism why shouldnt i put the $$ into our own country, I always thought they liked us - till a few years ago, it had been getting worse and this is the unfortunate, but perect excuse for getting out- hope that someday the island can turn back to want it was in the 7-=80's..."

I think it is a great idea, for Americans with your attitude, to stay home and travel in your own country. Fortunately there are intelligent, educated, worldly Americans who have different views and EXPECTATIONS of foreign lands and travel.

But it seems people like you are the ones who come to foreign countries and through hissey fits when a menu is not in English, when you can't wear sneakers and shorts into museums and theaters, when things are "not like its in America"...... People like you usually don't speak foreign languages, don't take time nor care to learn about foreign cultures, and have a faulty attitude that you are "saviors of the world that everyone should bow to".... I think you should stay home. That's a great idea! And you'll save lots of money this way..... USD does not get a good rate against EUR nowdays.... :=)

[arch]

Ran across a post in a true crime newsgroup about the N. point of Aruba. Poster had 20 years background on the island. He stated that the NE shore was steep (30 meters) rocky, with rough surf. Also a large population of sharks. This location is below the California Light where the initial story told by the subjects said they took Natalee. Just wondering if anyone can confirm the ecology as outlined above. At 30 days tomorrow since Natalee 'disappeared,' I'm about convinced that she was thrown into the sea after whatever happened happened, and the three subs concocted the revised story to pull attention away from the Point. It really doesn't seem to me that she is still on the island. Also, the subs didn't have that much time to conceal her before they were back in town.

[maine]

oh moscow girl- lighten up and actually read what i wrote- so quick to point. I LOVE aruba- i have been insulted beyond your knowleg=dge here w/ statements like "we tolerate americans" etc. dontyou go thinking you know who i am. I happen to have immigrant parents (and save lives for a living and speak my share of languages) so, dont stereotype- ignorance! I have great friends there that own businesses and THEY are fed up as well with this crap- aruba has problems just like anyplace else & it is time they recognize this ... the head under the sand/ denial is why the policing and statistics are so far off... and tourists still think they are SAFE,

[maine]

arch- the terrain is VERY rough there- true, but to go out there late at night in the dark is unlikely, too dangerous and rough- even for a 4 wheeler

[KDM]

Moscow Girl -

I am truly ashamed and somewhat embarrassed by all the "uly American" attutude on display here. That said, I have traveled and lived all over the world and in almost any country on any day, the
tour guides that work with tourists would rather be dealing with AMericans than anyone else. My daughter's girlfriend who is English and degreed but waitressing right now has also traveled all over and says that people will jockey to get to have the table of the American tourist who tend to be much more polite and considerate to service people than those of other cultures.

[maine]

amen to that-

[lou]

KDM
You said ":a list should be put up immediately that alerts all peoples everywhere of unsolved cases!"

Here you go:
http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/kidnap/kidmiss.htm

[George H W]

@Moscow girl

Thank you...

[mike]

as for your innocent until proven guilty.. doesnt mean anything in Aruba....In Aruba you are guilty until proven innocent under Dutch law. I have no PITTY on the Vander Sloots, they are hiding something and I agree with MRS. Holloway on Paul Vander Sloot being nervous and sweating a great deal during their meeting. How is it that Mrs. Hollow was not sweating at all and Paul VD was sweating like he just finished working out....he has lived in this weather for quit some time and yet he is sweating like he was a tourist or something..It just doesnt add up. Joran was the last to see her alive and thats points to a guilty verdict in the Aruban legal system unless Joran has an alibi which he does not have. He has continued to lie to police about where they were at and where they said to have dropped Natalee off at. If it wasnt for the security guard talking to Deepak in the jail we would have never really know where they dropped of Natalee.

[Checkme]

Are we here?

[war of the worlds]

Check me: We dont know - are you there?

[Orange]

Wow..the gossip. The anger. And now an attempt to cloak and justify this mob behavior with the bible...yikes...dudes, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" since we are getting all biblical here.

[KDM]

Truly frightening isn't it ORANGE that so many bloggers here have the imperical knowledge, sitting at their computers of what has happened to Ms. Holloway?? And/or they are proof positive who is quilty! It boggles the mind that so many have lost the ability to reason and sit at the judgement table with nary a FACT in their pocket that would hold an individual on American soil in
jail for a day, let alone weeks! Darn tooten lucky that they are on American soil and not on Aruba where they could be picked up and held on mere suspicion of their insanity/bloggeritis or whatever Tom Cruise will let us call it!

Shucks.

[patricia]

What are you talking about we americans share are menus with the SPANISH all you have to do is turn it over ..also we have everything else too in spanish..i think we are being very nice and helpful? THIS is america and you can come here and pretty soon you will not even have to learn the language...I think thats great ..so we will have to learn spanish??? whatever

[KDM]

Lou - I meant to thank you for that list! What about all these people that have gone missing? Have we (USA) called out the national guard to assist? Are all the police agencies involved also inept? Is there someone they are all protecting as well? Can we always solve every case here? No. But we should hold Aruba (and the Netherlands) to a higher standard and ridicule and slander those trying to deal with this??? It is shameful and boorish.

http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/kidnap/kidmiss.htm

PATRICIA = It is amazing that all governemnt publications including voting documents have to be published in so many languages so that people that immigrate here (legal and illegal) don't have to learn the language of the country they have chosen to come to. We aren't talking about a few days visit! I work in a government office and there are five different languages being spoken at any given moment - spanish,tagolog,vietnamese, persian... MOSCOWGIRL does not know the half of it!