John 8:32, Shaw And Byron

I've often characterized what I have been up to here as a search for truth. At least in part, perhaps, as I have always unquestioningly admired the following quotation.

John 8:32 "And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Perhaps. But tonight the statement has, for me, a newly discovered corollary which could be in need of some pondering. By definition, the greatness of any new potential freedom must always be matched by what is the greatness of your existing prison.

So, a question for my readers - assuming you discovered this previously unconsidered duality to the nature of truth-seeking, would you embrace the harsh reality of George Bernard Shaw: "All great truths begin as blasphemies," or cozy up to the practical considerations of Lord Byron: "Truth is a gem that is found at a great depth; whilst on the surface of this world, all things are weighed by the false scale of custom"?

Comments

[Steph]

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
As a non-believer, I have to agree with this :+

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
This seems to be true in most cases, though I think the more open minded this world becomes, the fewer this statement will hold. Or so I hope.

"Truth is a gem that is found at a great depth; whilst on the surface of this world, all things are weighed by the false scale of custom"
Not all things. Also, this would imply that nobody knows the truth, right? Hmm... I'd like to believe I know the truth.

But then again, there is no way to be sure. We could all be living in some gigantic experiment by extraterrestrial alians.

[chrys]

Love truth, and pardon error. - - - Voltaire

The truth is always a compound of two half- truths, and you never reach it, because there is always something more to say.- - - Tom Stoppard

In a case such as this - there may not be an end to the meaning of truth.

[Flying Dutchman]

Here's one that came to my mind, while reading the NH-discussion over here:

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." - Thomas Jefferson -

And here's one for the media:

"When nobody knows nothing, everybody is an expert."

[Mary]

~There is only "One Truth"..Just one!

[Mary]

~ This is worth sharing on "Truth" ~

Be Sure Your Sins Will Find You Out

by Dennis Tucker

Recently I was sitting in the living room on a Saturday morning. Those readers with children know what that means. The children had some cartoon on that caught my interest. This one character was playing marbles with his friend and was losing. He decided to bring out the "blue marble". Obviously the "blue marble" was supposed to be some kind of secret weapon. However, he then remembered he had loaned it to his sister. So he ran to retrieve the "blue marble".

His sister was playing in her room, and much to his grief, she could not find the "blue marble" due to the mess in her room. So they decided to clean up her room. They took all the toys in her room to the kitchen. Her room looked good, but now the kitchen was a mess. The mother was not pleased at all. She demanded they now clean up the kitchen. They did so by carrying the mess to the yard. Now dad was upset, because he had to mow the yard.

At that point, I had to leave the room and never got back to the cartoon. But it got me to thinking on different levels. My children have the same problem. They sometimes think cleaning up is simply taking the dirty clothes and putting them under the bed. Eventually, it catches up with them and then their Mother is not happy. Just moving around the junk does not do any good. In order to do any good, junk needs to be thrown away, dirty clothes taken to the laundry room, and other things actually put in their proper place.

There is also a spiritual application. Some people try to just shift around sin and never really deal with it. Some will try to move from one congregation to another without ever repenting or acknowledging their wrongs. Some will try to place the blame on everybody around them. Some will just try to hide the sin from public view, something like putting the dirty clothes under the bed.

What needs to be done is personal correction. We cannot really hide our sins from God, "be sure your sin will find you out" (Numbers 32:23b). Either we will learn to handle sin or sin will handle us. It will make us unworthy to serve God, it will bring us into spiritual bondage (Romans 6:12), it will make us cowards in the presence of God.

It is never right to sin but the real shame is staying in sin and just moving it around.

[michele]

John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, "What is truth?"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
For some, truth is strictly subjective, measured against their own empirical data, and relative to their perception of reality. They are oblivious to another's wisdom, as if to prevent being contaminated by outside influences.

Pilate stood before the Living God, whose light was brighter than sun in truth, yet, his darkened mind was so limited, that for him, pondering truth was a rhetorical exercise of futility. Nor did he care to receive enlightenment from beyond his own understanding.

Sometimes the truth is staring at us face to face, but, it's starkness and proximity prevents us from recognizing it's features or focusing on it's meaning. Like standing too close to a painting, we need to take a step back to discern the full picture. Only then can we appreciate it's subtle meanings, and be blessed by wisdom and revelation.

Truth is absolute, since there can only be one truth.
Truth will set us free, but, like Pilate, do we ask, "What is truth?"

With patience, faith, and humility, the truth will be seen.
Jesus said, "Ask and ye shall receive."

Take a step back to see those features. The truth is in front of our noses, so close to us, that it is hard to see.
He will provide the perspective and the lenses to see the truth, and with patience, even a blind man can see.

[Scratch]

I love proselytizing.

[fred]

"If we suspect that a man is lying, we should pretend to believe him; for then he becomes bold and assured, lies more vigorously, and is unmasked."
Arthur Schopenhauer

[janieruth]

John 8:32 "And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Of course in this Bible verse, the TRUTH is Jesus Christ. I don't think you can really use it out of context to fit your own parameters. The Bible is God's word and John is speaking of God's son, the Messiah.

No truth of man's can set us free, free of eternal death that is, there is only one way to the Father and that is through His Son.

I am sure the Twitty's would agree as their only TRUTH right now is God's grace.

[T_C_Mits]

Truth is a consensus.

Examples:

Our legal system is dependent on twelve people (jury) who arrive at the “truth” by consensus.

The term “Scientific Method” is a procedure wherein many like events are examined and reproduced my more than one scientist (consensus) from which a “truth” is derived.

Occasionally a person will come along and refute the established “truth” (blasphemy), until such time the blasphemy is accepted as the new “truth”.

Examples:

Jesus Christ

Albert Einstein

I go along with:

George Bernard Shaw: "All great truths begin as blasphemies".

[pam]

I wonder what religion the v.d.Sloots claim to be their own..? Perhaps a spiritual advisor should be contacted by the family to help them
through this and to encourage them to do the right thing.

[deb]

It's time to call in Henry Lee..............
http://www.drhenrylee.com/contact/

[bww esq]

Truth is a consensus, are you kidding me? That is a very solipsistic attitude. Truth is simply statements which conform to the facts. No conscious entity is capable of altering reality, be it an individual, socity, or God. Was slavery really good when the "consensus" of society accepted it? Consensus, and other truth-seeking functions, is simply a means by which people decide what to believe to be true, and should never be confused with what actually is true.

[Loydd]

Jesus said:
I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me.

[T_C_Mits]

bww esq

You are confusing "truth" with reality.

"Truth" is what we believe, reality is what is (facts).

There is no good or bad reality, there is only good and bad "truth".

[KackyLacky]

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" John Lennon

[Stumped]

The Truth is something apparently the government is frightened for us to discover.
Check out this mornings headlines at Foxnews.com:

FEC Debates Blog Rules
The Federal Election Commission says Web logs just might be a threat to democracy and it's considering whether to police them.

The issue, being discussed during FEC hearings on Tuesday and Wednesday, is whether some Web sites actually provide unregulated benefits to specific political campaigns. The famously free-spirited Web community is fighting back. Check it out.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160971,00.html

[WW]

In this case I'm going with

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

We need to look at solutions that go against our instincts and that people close to the situation do not want to hear.

[answerman]

The investigation into Natalees disapearance is getting to the point of stagnation. It is a common legal practice to drag out investigations and or trials in order that the public becomes bored or disinterested. This is what appears to be happening here. So what are we, the people in the world that care, going to do about it? In my particular case I intend to do the following:

1. Boycot anything Aruban.
2. Boycot anything Dutch.
3. Boycot Carlos and Charlies.

It may be that these entities had nothing to do with the disappearance of Natalee. However, they are now in a position to provide the answers to her disaperance. The effective way to motivate them is to disrupt their financial security. Please join me in this effort and hopefully it will have a positive influence in bringing Natalee home.

[heavyheart]

Little absolute truth is left in this world as the truth is relative to your own point of view.

Seek not the truth but the fact that makes your truth, true to you.

[Dave]

AnswerMan

You are absolutely correct Answerman! And that is the only way you will get a sense of urgency from the Aruba officials. You need to speak the official Aruban language "Tourist Dollars" or that there lack of them!

[Cheynne]

You are confusing "truth" with reality.

"Truth" is what we believe, reality is what is (facts).

There is no good or bad reality, there is only good and bad "truth

That makes no sense whatsoever....truth and reality should be on the same level.

[MominTN]

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
In some cases, this statement is true. Think of some previous generations sayings, "What you don't know can't hurt you." Being ignorant does hurt many people and repeating a poorly thought-out phrase gave people an excuse to be naive and "in the dark" and therefore not responsible. Some people are still this way and think by avoiding tv or the news or politics or the internet, they can live their lives by not being hurt. But think about Natalee, and what you realize is what sounds fun and cool and popular can indeed hurt you and can hurt your children. So to delve into the problems and become informed participants we seek to use the truth to better our world. There are other great truths that come from the Bible that have lasted for generations and that have held up thru the test of time. "Thou shalt have no other God before Me" is more than just a commandment; It is a warning to those who live for other purpose rather than for God's will.

"Truth is a gem that is found at a great depth; whilst on the surface of this world, all things are weighed by the false scale of custom"
I believe this statement to be more in my way of thinking because as time passes you will know if your first impression was correct and if what other people tell you is true. Sometimes you may be perplexed for a long time trying to understand the truth of a matter or what happened. Sometimes you may have a lingering doubt that what everyone else believes may be a lie. You may just have to turn over the matter to God and rest assured that He will reveal it to you in good time or that you will have peace and understanding in heaven. I wonder sometimes how many falsehoods will we realize in our old age and will the next generation listen to our wisdom any better than we listen to our elders.

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." All truth seekers believe this and know the relief of the correct answer, the evaluation of the lesson learned, and the ability to move on to the next problem. We problem solvers feel good when the truth wins out and the lie is dispelled, not just for our own success, but for making this world a better place for all. For the truth does set you free from living with a lie.

[sleuthing]

Loydd,

you posted the following....."Jesus said:
I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me."

It is my belief that Jesus knew the "secret" teachings (the truth), and that is what he was trying to teach the people. Unfortunatly, we could have learned centuries ago if the "truth" had not been hidden from us by those with power when so many priceless writings were burned in Alexandria, and other writings withheld from the Cannon.

But, the "truth" is still hidden throughout the Bible and many other cherished writings if one seeks to learn. It's so very sad that we never had the privledge of knowing Jesus' studies during his lost years from ages 12 to 30, but it is said that some proof exists he indeed studied with the masters in Egypt and other lands.

Power leads to supression. And, I have no doubt that's the case with Natalee and Aruba. It is my thought that there are many invloved in her disappearance, and YES the father is involved.

What a different world this could have been.......and, it's still not too late.

We are all God's children, and regardless of our religion we pray to the same God although he/she sees "their" God in their own form.

[GGG]

Lord Byron, for sure... and I definitely like the Dan Riehl comment, matching the sense of the freedom of truth to the size of the prison. The truth Jesus speaks of (Himself) is certainly not of this world and weighs nothing on our "false scale of custom". Exactly why so many people just don't get it. The veil over our eyes is so often lifted and the Truth found through tradgedy or when realizing the "great depth" of the pit we have dug ourselves into. The vast prison of our own selves. Go with Lord Byron, for sure. Shaw's blasphemies, however true in retrospect, rely on the "false scale of custom" for evaluation before being proved true. Most blasphemies are just that, though great truths do begin that way, how could you know it to be the truth in advance? Maybe if gifted with great knowledge or spriritual wisdom not your own...

[moey]

answerman - I think you are on the right track.

I'm not much of a philosopher, just having lived a long time and seen a lot in this world. I guess I look at truth as being exactly what happend at any particular time, either it happened or it didn't, you can't embellish anything to make it more palatable. You either have a set of facts that are true or if you have added or taken away something, then it is no longer truth.

I have enjoyed reading all the comments, very deep thinkers. I'm pretty simplistic I guess.

Unfortunately for Natalie and her family I don't think the truth is ever going to be known unless they find her and at this point I really don't think that is going to happen. I believe whomever has been writing about Paul VS is very accurate about his complicity and his 'ability' with twisting the law for his own good.

When I first started working in the legal field 40+ years ago, I was excited to be working in an area where the "truth" was being sought. I quickly found out that trials were about application of the law - not necessarily about finding the truth.

[Getagrip]

Hmmm...I am perplexed by this one. Trying to avoid delving too deep and reading too much into it...

Without dissecting your quotes or adding any others, I'd say there are many truths out there, but you should not lose focus of what the main truth you are seeking is. Parallel truths exist which may aid or detract in arriving at the ultimate truth. I trust your judgment.

[moey]

Answerman - I think you are right.

I am not as philosophical as others who have posted, but to me truth equals the actual facts. Not facts that have been embellished to make them more palatable. Its pretty black and white to me, but then I tend to look at things simplisticly, I guess.

Years ago when I started working in the legal field I was so excited to be working in an area that I assumed was searching for truth. However it was explained to me that trials were not seeking the truth, but applying the law to whatever facts were admitted into evidence and of course that is different than the "truth."

My heart goes out to the Holloway/Twitty family as I do not think the real truth will ever be known unless they find Natalee and I really do not think that is going to happen.

I believe PVS and JVS have twisted the 'truth' to their benefit and have no regard for this family whatsoever.

[invisible]

The Bible must always be taken in context.

John 8:31,32 is an IF, THEN. Remember those?

"IF you hold to my teaching, your are really my disciples. THEN you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

It's not a blanket statement for whatever truth man comes up with, because as you see from this world, truth is only what one person believes according to the stimuli and the situation.

The passage is referring to truth as it concerns freedom from sin, not freedom from ignorance. If you are my followers, then you will know the truth and you will be set free.

The truth of this awful situation and all other situations does not set anyone free. Free from what, anyway?

The truth referred to in John 8:32 is Jesus talking about Himself and the freedom from sin that He offers to all of us. He usually didn't waste His time talking about anything besides that. All philosophy, the truth according to you or me or him or her, and all other opinions of any leader or religious figure on this earth, they are under His authority and control. That is the truth.

[kristin]

Jesus IS Truth. God IS Truth.

[MominTN]

Jesus had many teachings in parables for his followers to learn about God and righteousness. It wasn't all about sin and salvation.
The parable of the Good Samaritan...being a good neighbor.
Christians draw spiritual truths from Jesus's teachings.
This is a good website you might want to browse for learning about the teachings of Jesus.
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jpbl.html

[lou]

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

[Bonita,Victoria Canada]

Dan,
I prefer the GBS quote and it may apply best to the NH situation. I still maintain that the Van der S's are as victimized by this tragedy as are the Hollway/Twittys. No one has the right to accuse, on national tv., another on slim to no evidence. Mrs. Twitty has a right to her opinions and her pain, but it is unconscionable to hurl accusations at a man whose career may well be destroyed by those accusations. We know nothing...yet expect that Joran lied. His father and mother deserve the same presumption of innocence as anyone else. Don't destroy another family on the basis of intuition and suspicion. The Canadian justice system is not without flaw, but it is the best we have and I do view this situation and these endless interviews with the H/T family through that prism. Let's not descend to "vigilante justice".
Bonita

[invisible]

Yes, and in the end, it always comes down to salvation.

[Loydd]

Sleuthing

Jesus said I AM THE TRUTH... not that He knows the truth, or that he know some secret truth..But He stated, that He (Jesus) IS the truth.

I can also speculate many things, but I prefer just to believe what the bible says.

So in short, with due respect. I don't agree with your theorie.

[Bonita,Victoria Canada]

Dan,
I prefer the GBS quote and it may apply best to the NH situation. I still maintain that the Van der S's are as victimized by this tragedy as are the Hollway/Twittys. No one has the right to accuse, on national tv., another on slim to no evidence. Mrs. Twitty has a right to her opinions and her pain, but it is unconscionable to hurl accusations at a man whose career may well be destroyed by those accusations. We know nothing...yet expect that Joran lied. His father and mother deserve the same presumption of innocence as anyone else. Don't destroy another family on the basis of intuition and suspicion. The Canadian justice system is not without flaw, but it is the best we have and I do view this situation and these endless interviews with the H/T family through that prism. Let's not descend to "vigilante justice".
Bonita

[Johnson]

I think Bonita is right. Here we are all innocent untill proven guilty. Let's keep that in mind...

[Not a Hand Wringer.]

Bonita, you're a voice of reason in a sea of speculation, innuendo, psuedo-media-sleuthing and outright slander.

Many people on this forum pay little heed to seperating truth from fiction regardless of how much they quote the bible.

[Getagrip]

Innocent until proven guilty is right. The problem arises when you have the appearance of conflicts of interest and and lack of accountability - this is why we keep coming back here, to have the truth exposed, so that justice can be served - even in the unlikely eventuality that the suspects now in custody are in fact completely innocent.

[arch]

Agree with both of you. The problem is that there has not been (apparently)any progress in locating Natalee. Day after day. Nothing. From the initial search, that was handled as a 'lost child' search, not a possible criminal investigation, through all the evasiveness by aruban 'authorities.' Allegedly because the aruban-Dutch legal system does-not allow for release of information during an investigation. Where there is a lack of concrete information, the media will pursue in an attempt to find out anything they can. This case is one of the most frustrating I have ever heard of.

arch

[lou]

Bonita -
This we know: Joran lied, the Kalpoe brothers lied, and Steve Croes lied.

Question: Why?

Remember - if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck...then what can it be?

[sleuth#1]

This is the truth: There is power in our collective prayers and good thoughts. Let us continue to join together in prayer for the finding of Natalee, and for justice for her and her family, every hour on the hour.

[Not a Hand Wringer.]

[[ Bonita -
This we know: Joran lied, the Kalpoe brothers lied, and Steve Croes lied.

Question: Why?

Remember - if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck...then what can it be? ]]

Great, so you found a duck.

Now, lying isn't murder or kidnapping. Catching a suspect in a lie is only one piece of a puzzle in solving a crime.

Unless of course, you want to skip the stage where you collect evidence of a crime, have a trial, and win a conviction.

Do you want to go straight to the lynching?

Bonita is suggesting that there is a presumption of innocence until the suspect is proven guilty. I suggest that you pay attention to that, as it's a fundamental aspect of democratic law that seems to escape most of you armchair sleuths.

[hoping]

did anyone catch the interviews with greta last night. there were too hints in there that leads me to believe that the dee jay is gay and was hitting on depak at the internet cafe and asked his lawyer why would he say he didn't know depak, he replied, i don't know if he(the dj)meant no personally or no, not at all.

[bamawings]

While on this site and general one should presume innocence until proven guilty, it is my understanding that under Dutch and Aruban law you are presumed guilty and must prove your innocence. Sounds crazy but that is what has been indicated. We should not assume that what applies in America or Canada is in fact the case there.

[Selena]

The way a person acts is often more incriminating than what they say. Beating one's breast in frustration and yelling "What do you want me to do?" is the sound of a hopeless man. His father commanding him to say nothing speaks volumes. The truth is a difficult thing to tell for those who are afraid of it's consequence.

[christy]

Sounds like you found out something *not too flattering* about NH. Might as well make it public. There are plenty of lives at stake.

[right on time]

worldJOURNIER: You have definitely done your homework. Long post, but brilliant detail. I learned a lot I did not yet know. Are your sources general media? internet?

[chrys]

This was in my mail today:

Man has no nobler function than to defend the truth.- - - Ruth McKenney

The way it should be.

[right on time]

Scared Monkeys is overloaded or crashed. Anyone know anything?