Before Palin and Bachmann, There Was Rick Santorum
There's a Glenn Beck, Rick Santorum interview posted over at Santorum's site. Unlike some, I've elected to not be too critical of any legitimate conservative throwing their hat in the ring for 2012. Santorum is a legitimate conservative.
What intrigues me is how quick some are to criticize, or dismiss either him, Michelle Bachmann, or even Sarah Palin. True, the media has done everything it can to shred Palin's reputation. Also, before the more current seeming love affair it's having with Bachmann – one that will not last - she never did receive much credit, or positive attention from the media.
But people forget, before Palin and Bachmann were even around, the media did everything it could to damage Rick Santorum. That some on the Right are so quick to buy into it today demonstrates how effective they can be.
Judge them all however you see fit. But I'd be careful about simply regurgitating what the media has tried to make the conventional wisdom around any conservative with a presence on the national political scene. I try to judge them all by their own words and deeds, not the less than fine print that always goes along with being a conservative in America today.
Comments:
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Thanks.
I heard Rick’s interview with Rush and I liked what I heard. moved him into my 2nd choice then came the Nh debate. He just never connected with me. I’ll still keep an eye on him but he needs to up his game
I like Rick Santorum & it’s good to read that you feel similarly. He is a conservative and very pro-life. I think he could capture more attention if he would do as ‘unseen’ just suggested & step up his game. Time will tell. I’m hoping for the best. Just over 16 months to go.
I have never and will never forgive Rick Santorum for introducing and pushing a national anti-dog-breeding bill backed by P”e”TA.
I saw a Rick Santorum interview on Fox. He was quite dismissive of Sarah Palin. Part of it was what he said (he pretty much toed the party line); there was also his body language and attitude. Generally, I like Santorum however he showed me that he put party above principle, and he turned me off.
I have never and will never forgive Rick Santorum for wearing argyle socks with dark blue slacks and cordovan shoes while pushing a library book cart full of extra signed copies of legislation he sponsored which he most certainly was going to distribute to unsuspecting visiting constituents with their eyes glazed over from the Washington DC sights and their personas transmogrified from “everyday commonsensical folk” to lapdogs of the Washingington elite.
Yep.
I’ll never forgive that.
Ever.
Not ever.
……….unless Santorum says somthing I like. Then, you know, whatever. All bets are off.
Or something.
AND I MEAN IT!!!
Santorum’s problem is that he looks like one of the high school bullies in those 80′s teen movies- and Tim Pawlenty’s problem is that he looks like the geek that Santorum bullies. Another term that comes to mind when I see Santorum is “Surf Nazi”.
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The media will always try to screw a conservative.
But the only direction they know is a left hand thread.
Santorum is pretty awesome. He even tipped off his buddy John Ensign that the jig was up. Principles.
I wonder how Santorum feels about people who aren’t like him being able to get married in NY, and the federal court in IN telling Mitch Daniels that he’s not allowed to slowly murder poor women (for now). How do you Real Americans feel about that?
I also wonder how Real Americans feels about the fact that, it was *Republicans* in NY who were responsible for letting people different than Rick Santorum get married.
USA American
Your arguments are irrational perhaps you could clarify your confused statements?
First, since the dawn of marriage- way back when and before you existed-Heterosexuals have never been permitted to enter a contract of marriage with members of the same-sex while Homosexuals were permitted to enter into a contract of marriage (for example Gov Jim McGreevy twice entered into a contract of marriage, was not banned and even pro-created several times then after his second divorce decided he wanted to live with his homosexual lover)
Question to you, considering these facts where is the violation of civil liberties?
Further, if Planned Parenthood exists only for the purpose of providing reproductive (as in sexual) needs how does defunding other women’s sex lives going to “”slowly murder poor women”?
And, are you saying that women are so incapable of taking responsible action for their own lives that they are mere dependences upon Governmenet authority?
Do you see women that weak and hapless? And if so, would you then admit you are a misogynistic pig?
USA moron: “I also wonder how Real Americans feels about the fact that, it was *Republicans* in NY who were responsible for letting people different than Rick Santorum get married.”
Real Americans are too busy worrying about why the lefties have killed off all of the jobs, taken us to the edge of another housing bubble, started a 3rd war against brown peoples to protect european oil contracts, driven the price of gas to $5 a gallon (as obambi said he would), etc etc.
Of ocurse, poor hapless USA moron has no answer for that.
Neither does obambi.
Which is why obambi, if you can believe it (and I know you can!) is actualy going to try running as a guy who “just got here” and bears no responsibility for what is happening economically in our country.
LOL!
“leader”
President “present” strikes again……
I just don’t see anyone from the NE, East or Beltway, or beloved of them, capturing the base. We are just so sick of them all.
Gas prices are falling or haven’t you been to the gas station lately?
“Your arguments are irrational perhaps you could clarify your confused statements?”
Respectfully, they are only irrational and confused to the combination of stupid and dishonest.
“First, since the dawn of marriage- way back when and before you existed-Heterosexuals have never been permitted to enter a contract of marriage with members of the same-sex while Homosexuals were permitted to enter into a contract of marriage (for example Gov Jim McGreevy twice entered into a contract of marriage, was not banned and even pro-created several times then after his second divorce decided he wanted to live with his homosexual lover)
Question to you, considering these facts where is the violation of civil liberties?”
Blah blah blah. Any more false premises for me? So, I take it that you’re just fine with homosexuals marrying whomever they like. I am. NY is. With the support of NY republicans.
“Further, if Planned Parenthood exists only for the purpose of providing reproductive (as in sexual) needs how does defunding other women’s sex lives going to “”slowly murder poor women”?”
Ah, the combined ignorance and dishonesty of Teabillies in full force. Planned Parenthood DOESN’T exist ONLY for the purpose of providing reporoductive needs. It provides mammograms, papsmears, and other health services vital to the health and safety of women who can’t afford to go elsewhere. Services that help prevent poorer women from, you know – DYING. Mitch Daniels is happy to take that away because SOME of what PP provides is access to abortions and birth control. Birth control, as you know (or maybe you don’t considering who you are), ALSO contributes to the health and safety of women.
“And, are you saying that women are so incapable of taking responsible action for their own lives that they are mere dependences upon Governmenet authority?”
No I’m not. Thanks for asking, idiot.
“Do you see women that weak and hapless?”
Nope. Just in need of many types of medical services. But, again, thanks for asking, idiot.
“And if so, would you then admit you are a misogynistic pig?”
Nope. I’d admit that I want women of all classes, colors, and backgrounds to have access to affordable health services. Unlike preening prigs like you who want just women of your class to have these services. Because YOU’RE responsible. Like Brisol Palin.
Thelosers: “Gas prices are falling or haven’t you been to the gas station lately?”
LOL
From what level to what level? links.
Over how long a period of time? links.
Temporary downward “burp”, or longer term trend downwards? links.
LOL
The readers of this blog couldn’t help but notice that you refused to address the jobs issue, or the housing bubble issue, or for that matter, every other economic issue.
Go ahead, just keep telling yourself and those around you that “all is well” and “not to worry”!
LOL
Better yet, do what sheriff li’l joey biden did and tell everyone that the obambi stimulus plan “worked better than anyone hoped”…..
LOL
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/03/politics/main5284608.shtml
So, if the lefties promised us that the stimulus plan guaranteed us that the U-3 unemployment rate would never go above 8%, and then sheriff li’l joey told us the plan had worked better than expected, how is it that U-3 rate zoomed to 10% and is now at 9.1%?
LOL
Go ahead lefties.
By all means.
Explain that.
Don’t worry, we know you’d just rather talk about Palin’s emails.
Why wouldn’t you? What else could you possibly do? Run on obambi’s actual record?
LOL
Not likely!
“Real Americans are too busy worrying about why the lefties have killed off all of the jobs, taken us to the edge of another housing bubble, started a 3rd war against brown peoples to protect european oil contracts, driven the price of gas to $5 a gallon (as obambi said he would), etc etc.
Of ocurse, poor hapless USA moron has no answer for that.”
Sure we do. The answer is that you’ve done dick to address these concerns. Instead, you’re small government heroes have taken steps to defund PP, make it harder for poor and minority people to vote, discriminate against homosexuals, regulate women’s bodies, etc.
“Neither does obambi.”
Sure he does. He’s outlined them. But since the GOP’s number one goal is to ensure that he isn’t reelected, as Mitch McConnell tells us, it’s difficult to implement them. But gas prices took a nose dive in my area recently.
“Which is why obambi, if you can believe it (and I know you can!) is actualy going to try running as a guy who “just got here” and bears no responsibility for what is happening economically in our country.”
He is? Proof? Oh right, you don’t do that. You just make stuff up. Good news is that he will win. And you will lose. Again.
“LOL!
“leader
Unlike Eric Cantor, right?
poor moronic usa idiot!
LOL
moron: “Unlike Eric Cantor, right”
Leaders produce budgets.
Cantor did.
Obambi didn’t (and don’t even begin to beg us to believe that a speech constitutes a budget or that the joke of a budget obambi gave us (for 12 years, not 10!) and didn’t even get a single dem vote in the Senate counted either (otherwise at least one dem would have voted for it))!
The dem house didn’t last year.
The dems in the Senate haven’t for almost 800 days!
“leaders”
Hey, speaking of idiots, like usa moron and obambi, the “good” news is that now, after just a couple of weeks, obambi has figured out that the lefty-Luddite path isn’t necessarily a good one!
LOL
Last week, idiot obambi thought automation kills jobs:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/06/figures-obama-blames-atms-for-his-record-unemployment-rate/
LOL
THIS week our delicate delicate delicate li’l teleprompter in chief has changed his mind!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110625/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama
Gee, why did it take so long for our community organizer in chief to figure out that automation doesn’t kill jobs, that instead it spurs entire new industries?
Oh, right.
Because he is a lefty.
just like USA moron.
LOL!!
Welcome to the 21st century President “present”! And welcome to you usa moron!!
But be very very careful……I think those ATM’s and kiosks are staring at you…….
LOL
You know who else is an idiot?
If you’re guessing Nancy Pelosi, you’d be right…
but I don’t have the time to list all the examples of her insanity.
However, it is nice that we are STILL discovering what was in the government takeover of health care bill.
It would have been a shame if we had to actually discuss all that was in it prior to passage.
BTW usa moron, can you explain what our strategic objectives are for the Libyan non-hostilities man-caused disaster? How about our exit plan? I recall that you lefties were really really sticklers for those “exit strategies”.
Please do regale us with the enlightened wisdom and clarity of the obambi foreign policy.
LOL!!
Finally, I’d also like to take a moment to congratulate obambi on finally recognizing that there really weren’t any shovel ready projects after spending 2 years telling us all how the shovel ready projects were going to solve all our problems!
more evidence of obambi the “genius”:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/06/president-obama-apologizes-to-family-of-fallen-soldier.html
Wow, all those “fascist war-mongering” military guys must look alike to obambi!
Of course, he was “off teleprompter” when he spoke, so there ya go!
I wonder if obambi knows how to pronounce “corpsman” yet?
Of course, “corpsman” is a military thing, so it’s no surprise that the guy who sat in “Reverend” wrights church for 20 years was unfamiliar with the term. (he must have been unfamiliar with it, because it pronounced it incorrectly TWICE in the same speech)
LOL
Twice.
“genius”
BTW, best comment yet (via twitter) regarding NY state voting for legalizing homosexual marriage from our local favorite Andy Levy:
@andylevyAndy Levy
“This is great, we can get married!” “Yeah, ummm, about that…” – scene playing out in gay households all across NY tonight
LOL
I don’t know Rick Santorum. I believe Michele Bachmann will try to defund, fire, and unwind the behind the scenes mess that is czars and bureaucracies. If Rick Santorum is a “company man” will he do that?
Of those who have far stepped forward to run I like Michele Bachmann first, then I don’t know… Santorum or Cain. Would either one of them gut the bureaucracy? It needs to happen. It needs to be hard, fast and “bloody”.
If Rick Santorum can do that then I can support him.
Romney nor Huntsman will do what needs to be done. They are big government Ruling Class guys.
The housing bubble burst before Obama took office.
Yeah, it would be nice to do something on jobs. Bot Republicans aren’t going to let anything pass that might help the economy.
Gas prices are forecast to drop more during the next couple months.
V
Funny how all those Republicans so against deficit spending voted for every budget busting bill Bush put forward. That includes Ryan and all his buddies.
Republicans don’t care about deficits. Cheney made that perfectly clear when he said that “Reagan proved deficits don’t matter”. If they did care, they’d agree to close some of the BS wire-offs Cantor walked out on. Is he supposed to be an adult, cause it doesn’t look like he’s really interested in finding a solution. Little boy throw tantrum cause he can’t get everything he wants.
Yeah, Gas Prices are falling and Grocery Prices are up 40%. Thanks for nothing.
(And to fix that for next year, we’re going to flood more farmland to save the snail darter.)
Poor little collective boy!!
Spin spin spin collective boy!
collective boy: “The housing bubble burst before Obama took office.”
We are in a second housing bubble right now. Or didn’t you know that? LOL
collective boy: “Yeah, it would be nice to do something on jobs.”
You had 4 years of complete congressional control plus the presidency plus a veto-proof majority in the Senate for part of that time.
YOU said your stimulus plan would solve the problem.
It only made it worse.
So spin away spinning boy.
collective spin boy: “But Republicans aren’t going to let anything pass that might help the economy.”
LOL
But democrats aren’t going to let anything pass that might actually help the economy because they only care about maintaining centralized control.
There, fixed that for you.
collective spin boy: “Gas prices are forecast to drop more during the next couple months.”
LOL
How much? For how long? For what reasons? How will that affect long-term gas prices?
LOL
Don’t worry, it’s pretty clear those questions are quite beyond your soros-funded troll google skills.
collective spin boy: “Funny how all those Republicans so against deficit spending voted for every budget busting bill Bush put forward.”
Obambi voted for everyone of those budget busting bills Bush put forward. And then obambi tripled the budget deficit…for 3 straight years with his dem pals in the house.
Of course, all you have to do is go back and look at the deficits during the times Bush had a republican controlled congress.
What was the last budget deficit number for the last year republicans had control of the House/Senate/Presidency?
$170 billion.
$170 billion.
What was last years All-dem all the time deficit? $1.5 TRILLION. Only about 9 times more!!
LOL
“Budget busting”
LOL
collective spin boy: “That includes Ryan and all his buddies”
That includes obambi.
Where are the jobs spin boy?
Where. Are. The. Jobs?
You and your pal obambi made everything much much worse.
And you and your pal obambi OWN the economy.
Just ask DWS.
LOL
If you dare…..
Poor little lefties.
You can just feel their desperation to return to the 2008 campaign when all of their unicorn-pixie dust-rainbow promises FELT so true, so right.
LOL
It’s 2011 now pals.
You have a record.
You are going to have to address your own performance.
But hey, I get it.
The talking points have gone out, and those talking points direct the little lefties to pretend like the last 2 years never happened.
Poor poor little obambi.
He just showed up in Jan of 2009 and he found such a mess……….except he didn’t just “show up then”. He had already been there, along with his dem pals, running congress and controlling the budget for 2 years.
LOL
I can’t blame the lefties for wanting to relive those heady heady days of 2008!
Except, again, it’s 2011………and obambi’s policies have destroyed the economy.
3 Trillion dollars in during obambi’s regime and we are worse off than ever before.
After QE I and QE II, there is nothing more you can do…except change the subject.
And that’s all the little lefties have.
Reality sucks when you run out of others peoples money.
Not to worry though, I hear soros has cleaned up during obambi’s tenure, as has Goldman Sachs, as has GE, as have the unions (who were simply given 2 car companies).
Speaking of car companies, anyone else notice how the left is now incorporating Ford into their mantra of how they (the left) saved Detroit?
Great license plate holder seen yesterday on a new Ford: “Built without your tax dollars”
LOL
Fact: We had a budget surplus when Bush took office. When he left, the economy was in the worst shape since the Great Depression. Worst President Ever!!!!
Your “fiscal conservative Republicans” put two wars on the national credit card, one huge unfunded mandate and two huge tax breaks. Tax breaks during war, now there’s an ORIGINAL idea.
They ever find those WMDs in Iraq?
Yeah, Fixing the Bush Depression is going to take awhile.
Funny, I have yet to hear about any Republican job bills.
The thing about including “Intelligent Design” in science classes and letting the kids decide turns my stomach. How ’bout you?
“Cantor did.”
Figured rags/drags would be a fan of a cowardly weasel like Eric Cantor.
What a perfect symbol of today’s “conservative” movement …a clueless cockroach cowering behind John Boehner when the tough decisions have to be made.
Because the conservative platform, that the world will end if America’s wealthy have to pay the same tax rate as they did during Bill Clinton’s economic boom, is so dumb and simplistic a chimp could run on it.
Wow, I see the Progressives are out in full force. That new DNC software that is designed to troll every right leaning site has been deployed.
For USA non-American who claimed that Planned Parenthood provides Mammograms and Papsmears, that is a total lie. PP refers those in need of those services to other medical facilities. That was already proven, by some PP people themselves during the defunding debate.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/14/planned-parenthoods-mammograms/
The typical Liberal mind believing that if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth.
It is really disgusting to see what the media has done to Santorum, who is a great conservative with a few mistakes. The thing that almost everyone ignores about Santorum is his strong foreign policy knowledge. If you listen to him in an interview that involves national security/foreign policy he probably has one of the most knowledgeable and on target foreign policy positions. He absolutely knows and intelligently articulates exactly who our enemies are. Unfortunately he is being unfairly attacked by not only the Liberals, but also by those national Tea Party groups because he does address the other two legs of the conservative stool, social and national security. They would prefer that everyone stay focused on the economy and fiscal issues to the exclusion of all else.
“The typical Liberal mind believing that if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth.”
Speaking of typical conservatives, looks like conservative hero, Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser, tried to strangle a female colleague during a debate recently.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/124537284.html
Looks like the good guys will be getting another shot at his ee\at soon.
The thing about including “Intelligent Design” in science classes and letting the kids decide turns my stomach. How ’bout you?
Posted by: Sissy Willis | Saturday, June 25, 2011 at 04:59 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yeah.
It really seems illogical, that several leading conservatives who champion clear-headed, rational, anti-collectivist policies and principles you can really cheer for 95% of the time, then go on to use one last sentence to pander to some goofy superstition.
I guess it’s a political necessity, like Mr. McCotter’s obligation to subsidize union monopolies, in the face of an otherwise ringingly clear leadership for freedom. I suppose there will never be a perfect choice in politics; it’s always a compromise to choose the least bad combination.
Depressing, but reality.
Planned Parenthood provides mamograms? Really??
http://www.adrienneroyer.com/2011/03/30/where-does-planned-parenthood-provide-mammograms/
Planned Genocide as the largest provider of abortions in America deosn’t have time for pesky breast cancer exams.
Sorry but these murderers actually kill more than 300,000 Americans each and every year while providing fewer that 5000 adoption referrals!!!
In addition did you know 53 million American babies have been killed since Row vs Wade in 1973!!
http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS03_AbortionInTheUS.pdf
http://liveaction.org/blog/planned-parenthood-abortions-vs-adoption-referrals/
UnAmerican really needs to go somewhere for some fresh talking points!!
Try that new fangled Google thing before opening up you piehole will ya or better yet hang around Daily Koz with the rest of the half-wits?
At least they might believe your made up bullshit!!
Could you at least try and provide a link to back up your assertions next time?
Not that anyone here should expect any less from you and the other lingering low-lifes!!
With your little Daily Koz zingers like “Teabilly” you think you are being cute but the reality you are a person who is simply a consistanly bitter, angry, hateful person!!
I feel very sorry for you!!
If you believe abirption is murder, why don’t you pass a law sending any woman that has one to prison for murder.
You might be surprised who you get to convict.
Like Rick Santorum’s wife.
53 Million American’s killed, or what would you call ……choice????
LOL!
I see the lefties are spinning spinning spinning spinning.
The dems controlled congress for 4 years, in the Senate with a supermajority, and they had the Presidency for 2 of those years?
They. Destroyed. The. Economy.
Obambi promised us 8% U-3 unemployment. Fail
Obambi promised us “shovel ready” jobs. Fail
Obambi promised to reduce the deficit. TRIPLE FAIL
Obambi voted against raising the debt limit.
Obambi ripped 500 Billion out of medicare.
Obambi’s administration actually, purposefully, provided the weapons used to kill American agents directly to foreign based drug cartels.
Purposefully.
Purposefully.
keep spinning lefties.
Pretend it’s 2008. Pretend you haven’t been in charge. Pretend your policies haven’t been enacted. Pretend Bush is still President.
Go ahead.
You have to.
You have no choice.
None.
If you don’t, 2010 will look like the “good old days” to you….(and still might anyway…..)
Bush said it would take massive and unprecedented government intervention to tackle the root cause of the ongoing financial turmoil and prevent a collapse of the wider US economy.
Bush said a comprehensive rescue plan, which could run into the hundreds of billions of dollars, was the only way to keep the financial sector from a total failure and prevent credit availability to US consumers from drying up completely.
Speaking outside the White House, Bush was flanked by his top finance chiefs Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Securities and Exchange Commission chairman Christopher Cox.
‘This is a pivotal moment for America’s economy,’ Bush said. ‘There will be ample opportunity to debate the origins of this problem, now is the time to solve it.’
“53 Million American’s killed, or what would you call ……choice????”
Is a woman that has an abortion a murderer or not?
Rick Santorum does hit the three legs, so that’s very good. Dissing Palin to kiss up to the MSM, not good.
Still, everyone has faults.
Michelle Bachmann is in favor of allowing the science haters to teach evolutionary religion in school with its abundance of illogic and disproofs, and thats a definite strike against her. It won’t be long now until the preference cascade kicks in, and everyone is denying they ever believed in evolution. Thing is, a lot of those folk will be telling the truth.
Santorum, Bachmann, and Palin are all good choices. Cain is not bad either. The rest….well, I can skip voting that year.
Drago,
Republicans could also do the same thing. Keep thinking it is 2008, and select another progressive for the election.
The Collective: You ask: “Is a woman that has an abortion a murderer or not?”
Like many questions in the abortion debate, this one is misleading.
“Murder” is a term which, commonly understood for the past centuries in Western Civilization, is more than just the killing of a human being. It also requires a mental element, generally called “mens rea” or the “evil mind.”
To kill is one thing; murder is another.
In order for it to be murder, not only would the thing killed be a human being (as a fact), but that the person who killed it must also believe it to BE a human being and killed it regardless – AND that killing must have an element of intent, i.e. to kill a human being without justification.
There is no possibility at this stage of medical science to determine whether the unborn human child is a “human being” at the moment of abortion.
But, if the person who DOES abort the child BELIEVES it to be a human being, then, in that person’s mind, what else could it be BUT “murder?”
The question posed is beyond simplistic to the point of being meaningless.
“I try to judge them all by their own words and deeds, not the less than fine print that always goes along with being a conservative in America today.”
That is what I do. I judge them the same way I judge people in my own life. That is why I respect Palin, and reject Bachman, Romney, etc.
I never paid attention to Santorum, the more I do, the more I like him.
“The question posed is beyond simplistic to the point of being meaningless.”
BS. Sactownman calls abortion murder. It’s fair to ask him if the mother should go to jail or not.
“Posted by: TheCollective | Sunday, June 26, 2011 at 07:49 PM”
Her and any accomplices.
Murder is a crime. It is defined in statutes.
But homicide is both a technical legal term and a term in common usage.
Abortion is, manifestly, homicide in the common use.
“Abortion is murder!” (Prove it.)
“Abortion is not murder!” (Prove it.)
Proof lacking for both assertions, members of both sides of the argument turn to faith, rather than reason, for support. (The unborn child “is” a person for the one side; the fetus “is not” a person for the other.)
With both sides firmly entrenched in their positions, and neither side being able to prove their own version of reality nor disprove that of their opponents, there is no room for debate – no possibility of persuasion.
For, in the end, one side is right and the other wrong. Whatever it is that is growing inside the human woman’s womb is either a human being at the time of it being killed or it is not. There are no other choices. On/off. Yes/No. Person/Non-person.
I tend to make decisions, especially ones as momentous as whether abortion should be legal, based on reason rather than a “belief” unsupported (and unsupportable) by facts.
And, when the facts are lacking, one must hie to the “what if” type of risk analysis of error.
There are two errors which can be made when considering abortion:
1) That the fetus is, indeed, a person when the decision to abort is made and the killing is a killing of a human being when, in error, the abortionist thought it to be a non-person.
2) That the unborn child is, indeed, a non-person when the decision not to abort is made and the choice not to abort results in allowing a non-person to live, in error, and later become a person.
Two possibilities of error. Of these, I choose, based on rationality rather than faith, to select error number 2 and, rather, not kill what might not be a person than kill what might.
When you don’t know the status of what it is that you propose to kill and that thing might be a person, it is simply amoral to kill it without regard to what it might be.
Any hunter knows this. You simply don’t shoot at the rustle in the bushes. Not because you may waste a bullet or that you might kill a rabbit rather than a deer, but because that rustle might be a person.
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“I just don’t see anyone from the NE, East or Beltway, or beloved of them, capturing the base. We are just so sick of them all.”
The problem is, anyone outside that area…clueless. Stupid.
For example, check out the comments on blogs, as the time zone in the east, goes to 11 pm…NO ONE from the middle, or the west, comments! There is a SERIOUS lack of intellectual gravitas outside of the east in this country!
“I just don’t see anyone from the NE, East or Beltway, or beloved of them, capturing the base. We are just so sick of them all.”
Me too, but there’s a problem.
Ouside of the East, there are just vast, empty spaces. A wasteland.
For example, check out the comments for the blogs, as the east coast draws it’s curtains around 10pm. NOTHING. NO ONE from the west, or the middle. SILENCE.
There is a SERIOUS lack of intellectual gravitas, outside of the east US.
Darn this “Latest comments” thing!
To Dan: this limit of 50 comments being displayed, seems a bit low. People don’t realize, they aren’t seeing all of the comments.
“Sorry but these murderers actually kill more than 300,000 Americans each and every year while providing fewer that 5000 adoption referrals!!!
In addition did you know 53 million American babies have been killed since Row vs Wade in 1973!!”
SacTownMan-
You obviously have strong personal feelings about abortion.
I advise that you never have one.
Santorum aka This Years SoCon Model -
Is there not just a tad of a conflict in the group think y’all exhibit where you rail against the ‘nanny state’ that uses science (ack!) to advise on how much sugar might be unhealthy…but you have no issue with a nanny moralist that wants to actually make things he finds just icky – like gay stuff – against the law?
No?
Oh, ok.
itsMike2Cents: You make light of SacTownMan’s belief that the unborn are “people” (human beings in a moral sense, “persons” in a Constitutional sense), snarking: “You obviously have strong personal feelings about abortion. I advise that you never have one.”
Why is his belief that the unborn are “people” any less valid that your (presumptive) belief that they are not?
And, if you are unable to prove that they are not “people,” then, by what measure do you hold your choice to support/advocate/actually kill them superior to his not to?
Huey -
You’re not rally asking a question here.
I don’t see his opinion as invalid.
One holding such an opinion should focus their energies on preventing unwanted pregnancies.
Defunding PP would lead to more of those.
Unless you/STM object to contraception and sex ed as well?
Of course I’m asking questions here. You just don’t want to answer them, so you attempt to deflect them.
Of course those who oppose unjustified abortion have some energies turned towards “unwanted pregnancies.”
But, that isn’t the issue. The issue is abortion, i.e., once the person becomes pregnant.
And, the notion that “defunding PP would lead to more [unwanted pregnancies]” is unsupported by fact, history, and, frankly, common sense.
You can site no fact which supports this position. You can only provide speculation. History, on the other hand, prior to PP, shows that people (*gasp*) in the past, for the greatest part, were able to deny themselves instant gratification (extra-marital sex in general and unprotected sex in particular) if they didn’t want a baby. Common sense dictates the aphorism that if you reward a behavior (whether out and out handing out checks or simply subsidizing in any fashion) that you get more of that behavior. If people have to actually assume responsibility for their actions, then they tend to be more responsible in their actions.
I have no problem with contraception. This isn’t a religious issue with me. It’s what to do after conception which concerns me.
Sex ed? Depends upon what is being taught and to whom.
“And, the notion that “defunding PP would lead to more [unwanted pregnancies]” is unsupported by fact, history, and, frankly, common sense.”
Really. What fact? What history? And whose common sense?
Your statement is ridiculous. Contracepties lower pregnancy rates, including unwanted pregnancies. Which lowers the abortion rate.
That’s common sense.
“The issue is abortion, i.e., once the person becomes pregnant.”
Exactly…see you get it.
Put all your energies into preventing unwanted pregnancies.
You will accomplish a lot more than rallying against abortion laws.
TheCollective: So, in the absence of Planned Parenthood handing out contraceptives, then the number of unwanted pregnancies would necessarily increase?
Okay. Prove that.
What’s that you say? You can’t? You rely on “common sense” to inform you that “contraceptives lower pregnancy rates, including unwanted pregnancies. Which lowers the abortion rate.”
Here, of course, we’re talking about “unwanted pregnancies,” aren’t we? Since, of course, a “wanted pregnancy” tends to end up in a “wanted birth” rather than an abortion.
So, the introduction of contraceptives has decreased the number of unwanted pregnancies?
Really?
By your reasoning, since the introduction of the pill in the 1960′s, the number of unwanted pregnancies would have, necessarily, gone down. Each year thereafter, access to contraception in the United States became easier and cheaper (and with lessening social stigma.) In every way, over the years since its introduction, it has become easier and cheaper (for many, free) to prevent “unwanted pregnancies.”
Yet, the result is the exact opposite of what you say “common sense” reveals, i.e., that “contraceptives lower pregnancy rates….which lowers the abortion rate.”
Between 1973 and 1990, the number of abortions (“unwanted pregnancies”) increased every year, plateauing at a doubling of the number of abortions in 1990 than in 1973. Hardly a trend which jibes with the notion that “contraceptives … lowers the abortion rate.” (Since 1990, the number of abortions have marginally decreased almost every year, but not in line with your thoughts. The reality is that, with contraceptives freely available to everyone (including teens) and free to any who can’t afford them, the number of “unwanted pregnancies” resulting in abortions still number well over a million per year.)
Your paradigm should have resulted in the slow but inevitable eradication of unwanted pregnancies.
But, it didn’t. It won’t.
Why? Because it’s easy and cheap (frequently free) to get an abortion. Make a mistake and get pregnant? (Here the effort involved is to make sure that you take your pill every day, or, failing that, ensure that other protection is employed prior to the sex act.) No problem. Abortion is cheap and easy – and has no social stigma attached. (And, if you say “it’s not so easy on the “mother” who aborts her child,” then I will simply point to the numbers of them each year, then at you – and smirk knowingly.)
Before the pill. Before abortion. For the greatest part, people were somehow able (*gasp*) to control their urges so that they didn’t have so many “unwanted pregnancies.” Failing that, they were forced to take responsibility for their actions and either raise the child or to see to it that someone else did. Knowing this, knowing that responsibility attached to behavior, behavior is altered.
It’s really not rocket science.
BS. Guess what? The US population has grown a bit since 1973.
Abortions per capita have actually fallen over the last 30 years:
US abortions per thousand:
1981: 29.3
1985: 28.0
1989: 26.8
1993: 21.9
2001: 21.1
2005: 19.4
2008: 19.6
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
Guess what else?
Since the introduction of the Pill in 1961, US live birth rates per capita have dropped substantially.
Much, if not all, of the decline in abortions per thousand can be attributed to the greying of our population. Same with birth rates.
Huey wrote: Between 1973 and 1990, the number of abortions (“unwanted pregnancies”) increased every year
Huey then wrote: the decline in abortions per thousand can be attributed to the greying of our population.
Way to contradict yourself.
“Is a woman that has an abortion a murderer or not?”
She is a murderer and so is the father if he concurs in the procedure.
The doctor or other person who performs an abortion is a murderer. Huey, legal definition of murder is Solomonic, you know that. Made for lawyers, not victims and not perps, only lawyers. The only justification for killing a human being is when they are engaged in causing harm to one’s self or one’s nation.
‘The thing about including “Intelligent Design” in science classes and letting the kids decide turns my stomach. How ’bout you?’
Remarkable, surprises me. Kids are going to hear about “intelligent design” throughout their life, why not let them deal with it in school, in science classes? Science itself is a new stochastic structure every twenty years or so. It never is settled permanently on anything.
Kids are not able to think things through? Should not have to?
All through their life they are going to be running into spurious, fallacious, dim-witted, evil, dissembling, etc. people and ideas. And I do not mean to include intelligent design under either of those descriptors. Why not let the kids deal with things they will meet in life right along through their schooling?
I am flabbergasted you want them to not do that at least so far as intelligent design is concerned. Intelligent design is a modern iteration of the classical “cosmological argument for the existence of God.” It has been taken very seriously by the greatest minds in Western and Eastern civilization, some for, some against, some appreciative but not endorsing.
If intelligent design is wrong/untrue, why should children not find that out on their own, why censor it from their attention? They will encounter it sooner or later. Why not let them cope with it early on and see for themselves how they want to come out on this and any other major question of life?
Really, I am flabbergasted at your attitude. I though you sailed under a conservative ensign. Are you really a nanny-stater? Remarkable attitude.
“”Is a woman that has an abortion a murderer or not?”
She is a murderer and so is the father if he concurs in the procedure.”
Then that puts Rick Santorum’s and wife on your ist of murderers.
Pens que iba a comentar y decir que el tema limpio, lo hacen por ti mismo? Es realmente impresionante!
Lo que es un buen puesto. Me encanta la lectura de estos tipos o artculos. No puedo esperar a ver lo que otros tienen que decir.
Desidero incoraggiarvi a visitare un sito che ha un sacco di informazioni sul tema che vi interessa.
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