Levin Takes Down Frum
A second guest post from Mark Levin. Update: A disclaimer of my own for the hand wringing crowd. If you read Frum's post on ML, linked below – he got very personal and very nasty. In my opinion, Mark is responding in kind, though perhaps not as nastily, or bizarrely and based on facts, not suppositions. It is precisely how I handle such things. You slap me, I slap you. Kick me, I kick you. And if you come at me with a knife, I'll shoot your ass. So spare me the Mark is mean crap. Thank you.
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David Frum was never much of a thinker. Try as he might, he just can't seem to attract interest, let alone a following, even when stabbing his old boss, President George W. Bush, in the back with a rambling screed. Profiting from a confidential relationship with a president is about as low as it gets. But Frum, the ex-speech-writer turned self-hating blogger, isn't done descending. Now he spends his lonely days and nights at his keyboard trying to settle personal scores and demonizing those who dare to dismiss his ramblings as the work of an emotional wreck.
My interactions with Frum have been minimal, despite his past suggestions that they were something more. As best I recall, I met him first on an Amtrak train. He was sitting near the restroom feverishly working his lap top's keyboard. We exchanged pleasantries, and that was about it. I believe the next time I met him was at the Ledeen's home. He seemed harmless enough. The next thing I knew, he had a blog at NRO. I rarely read it, but when I did, I noticed he displayed a quirkiness and psuedo-intellectualism which suggested to me that something was a little off with the guy. But I didn't give it much thought. I became reacquainted with Frum after he viciously attacked Rush Limbaugh, after having attempted to spar with Rush over a period of months. And it was this unhinged, emotional outburst that caught my attention. I then realized, as did others, that Frum was a truly pathetic character subject to wild personality lurches and obsessed with drawing attention to himself.
In one truly bizarre incident, after I responded to another of Frum's hate-Rush outbursts, Frum had his own 15 year old son call my talk show. Realizing Frum had become emotionally uncontrollable, I told my producer to tell his son that it would not be appropriate for him to come on the air. If his father called in, I would put him on the show. Within minutes, Frum called, and he proceeded to make a fool of himself by interrupting, name-calling, etc. He could not gather his thoughts or make coherent, reasoned points. So, as the host, with a responsibility to my audience, I had to repeatedly lower the noise-level on his rantings. Frum made a fool of himself. Of course, Frum, as I predicted during the show, would accuse me of cutting him off. (The audio has been widely distributed and played. I recommend folks listen for themselves.) I don't know what kind of family or private life Frum has, and unlike him, I won't presume to know and use it to punish him here. But I do know from what I have seen and heard that he is a very troubled individual. He knows it and I know it.
I have found that it is a complete waste of time to engage Frum in a debate. He is psychologically and emotionally incapable of it. His latest post is a perfect example. He hunts and pecks around the Internet, looking for audio clips and transcripts, hoping to piece together another smear against me or Rush or his favorite target of the day. That's what people like Frum do. That's why he is exploited by Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, MSNBC, and Newsweek. They so wish he was the face of conservatism. But, alas, he can barely speak for himself. And apart from this response to Frum's latest ramblings, today will be like all other days. I will go on the air and talk with millions of listeners and Frum will write to himself on his own website.
– Mark Levin
oh. Also he’s enthusiastically exploited by the dirty socialists at NPR. My sense is he’s a poor little rich boy what never manned up and it’s sad, in a when Canadians go bad sort of way, but if it wasn’t him they’d just make David Brookth work overtime or just find someone else. He’s not really an individual he’s just the right shaped peg for the dirty socialist media’s hole.
Who is David Frum?
The hallmark of greatness is fighting for a clearly enunciated principle, and not just sparring against people. As far as I can see, Frum advocates no principle. Levin advocates – on the air, and in his books – the principle of liberty. Levin takes on anyone who opposes the principle he advocates.
Frum, on the other hand, just takes on anyone so that he can attract some attention. If Frum wanted real attention – lasting attention – he’d advocate for a principle. But “moderates” don’t advocate principle – that would dismiss their moderate stance. And so no moderate will ever be great. Can’t be.
You’ve heard of the self-proclaimed “annointed one,” well we have the “Great One!” Thanks for what you do Dr. Levin.
I knew and worked for a short time with his mother, Barbara, at CBC-Radio-Canada –we were both free-lancers then–in the late 60′s: she was a stand up girl!
Do at least try to be like your dear Mama, David, faithful, steadfast and true!
lol. Its like watching a flamewar between 5 year olds. Its such a strange sight to see the real meanness in the republican party turned inwards. Bring out the pitchforks!
My goodness. I think you’re trying a little too hard to discredit the man, Levin.
Anyone who’s ever read Frum’s articles knows better. There certainly might be disagreements, but he appears nothing like the “troubled individual” that you describe above. The very article of his that you link to is a perfect example. Anyone who’s listened to your show- specifically the one where you go on an over the top temper tantrum about the man and refuse to take his son’s call- should also know better.
Calling the man psychologically incapable of debate is not only ridiculous, but it borders on the appearance of projection. Are you incapable of resolving your ideological differences in a civilized way?
People like Levin and Limbaugh are keeping the party alive. Frum, you had your chance with McCain and you lost miserably. It’s time to differentiate ourselves from the Liberals to give a clear choice to America.
Frum, stop crying. If you can debate Mark, Debate him. Don’t talk about him on your pathetic website and leave your little boy out of it next time.
Mark, keep up the great work. I will never stop listening to you!
This reminds me of your dust-up with Jonah Goldberg. If no one is listening to Frum, then who cares? If no one listens to Dreher, then who cares?
I guess traffic is traffic, though, so I guess I don’t blame you for continuing to beat this drum.
Relentless backstabbing among Republicans and conservatives is deeply demoralizing.
Never heard of Frum
I wonder if Frum has ever paused to reflect — really to analyze soberly — whether his “friends” in the media are more interested in serving as the transmission belt for his attacks on other conservatives as they are for his “ideas” and policy prescriptions, such as they are. I think they’ve only ever provided him a megaphone for the former. I wonder why that is…
Dan,
Now THIS is why I am a regular Riehl World View poster!!!
Way to stir the pot bro!, it’s even more fun than poking sticks at the trolls!!!
They so wish he was the face of conservatism.
Frum reminds me of a male Kate Gosslin.
“lol. Its like watching a flamewar between 5 year olds. Its such a strange sight to see the real meanness in the republican party turned inwards. Bring out the pitchforks!”
Good point. When Barack Obama opposes gay marriage the left has the sense to attack a young beauty pageant contestant! When blacks and hispanics in California vote heavily against gay marriage the left attacks Mormons for it. When Obamaco retains virtually all Bush anti-terror policies the left continues to attack Bush for them. Ad nauseum. So much courage on the left. Who were you referring to as 5 year olds again?
Interesting that Levin decides to take these guys on, they have all the time in the world to sit and write on these blog sites. Levin holds down a fulltime job running the Landmark Legal Foundation and a radio show 5 days a week. They have no idea what it’s like to work for a living. Frum and his type, need to simply join the party they agree with most, the Democrat party. Oh, that won’t work, because then they won’t get on Jon Sewart or Bill Mahrs show and they would just be another liberal then, not a liberal Republican, which the left loves to use in their favor. I think they call those types “useful idiots”.
===No social ties with anyone outside his family and pets.===
Why does Frum say this? How does he know who Mark socializes with? Just because he foregoes the Washington circle doesn’t mean he has no social ties outside of his family and pets. Anyway, all I can say is Mark Levin ROCKS!
Circular Firing Squad! Ready, aim, fire!
Just for the record, David Frum is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. You may remember AEI as the group that hosted Dick Cheney’s “It’s ok to crush a child’s testicles” pro-torture cheer leading counterpoint to Obama’s statement on closing Gitmo.
The guy does give a lot of noise on NPR. Usually some whiny screed about how the American auto industry should revitalize itself by making more SUVs or how the Cuban missile crisis proved JFK was the greatest conservative of them all.
If the hard right wants to burn all their ambassadors (re: bullshit artists) to their middle ground and left wing counterparts as evil liberal witches, more power to you. Sharpen those guillotines and keep collecting more heads.
Frum is a twat, if Frum were anything but a twat, he would have been on talk radio and conservative sites arguing for his New Toryism(which has worked oh so well in the nearly fascist UK, right David?). Instead, he was on MSNBC and Newsweek and any other leftist outlet that would have him.
Brilliant diagnosis Mr Levin. You’ve nailed it. The only way for Frum to get noticed is to attack popular conservative Republicans. If he doesn’t do this then nobody would be talking about him because he brings nothing to the table. He recedes into obscurity until he comes out and bashes you or Rush and then he’s the toast of the liberal media. He’s not a leader and not worth your time to respond any further.
Great work!
Frum needs to go away. If he really wanted to help the cause of conservatism (thinking of how those outside of the cause looking in view it/us) then attacking Rush and Mark L. is just stupid. BUT if he’s looking to be another “republican-moderate-darling” of the left wing media he’s still stupid because they will use him and dismiss him (like what’s-his-name W’s old press-secretary).
Also, to IslamoLama — you are incoherent! Just shows not everyone at AEI is worthy of the title “senior fellow.”
Great post Abe. Its not the Republican Party turned inwards fighting….it is we who are purging the infiltrators who do not believe in our common principles. How can Colin Powell state he is a Republican and vote for the opposition? Holy crap, can you imaging a coop full of leaders who support the other side?
Remove them, shame them, avoid them, marginalize them….work from the Obama book and turn it upon them.
I often listen to Mark while driving….and its so compelling I end up driving around for most of the show!
Doing my part for the planet in promoting climate change.
‘The One’ is in Vegas today….since he is out of money, I heard he will make a huge bet on the new huge ‘stimulus’ wheel at the eunuch house. His motorcade was seen speeding away from the governor as he approached Obambi for a meeting….’breaking news’…..
“Why does Frum say this? How does he know who Mark socializes with?”
Levin doesn’t attend the same cocktail parties as Frum, doesn’t travel in the same social circles. He’s “not our class, dear” to Frum and his ilk. It’s a coded way to say that Levin’s an untermenschen to Frum’s ubermensch.
It’s part of Frum’s schtick to bash anyone he sees as lesser. Just Google the words “Frum Palin” and see how he was bashing Palin from day one, and that the gist of his arguments is that Palin’s not one of the Ruling Elite.
Why do we care what a Canadian liberal has to say about American conservatives?
Circular Firing Squad! Ready, aim, fire!
Just for the record, David Frum is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. You may remember AEI as the group that hosted Dick Cheney’s “It’s ok to crush a child’s testicles” pro-torture cheer leading counterpoint to Obama’s statement on closing Gitmo.
The guy does give a lot of noise on NPR. Usually some whiny screed about how the American auto industry should revitalize itself by making more SUVs or how the Cuban missile crisis proved JFK was the greatest conservative of them all.
If the hard right wants to burn all their ambassadors (re: bullshit artists) to their middle ground and left wing counterparts as evil liberal witches, more power to you. Sharpen those guillotines and keep collecting more heads.
Posted by: IslamoLlama | Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 11:41 AM
IslamObama(oops sorry slip of the tongue) IslamoLlama, You are a moron.
Frum is a resident scholar not a “senior fellow”. That’s like saying you’re a Head Coach in the NFL when in reality you’re a Place Kicker’s Coach…. You may be involved in the organization but when you tell the Head Coach he should “go for it” on 4th and 12 on your own 2 yd line he just pats you on the head and sends you back to the locker room to play with your legos. Mark Levin just sent Frum back to the locker room.
Not once did Dick talk about crushing dicks….even the little ones(projection much?)
And if you were even remotely honest you would know and state that Cheney’s speech wasn’t the counter point to O(shit)’s. But that O’dopey ran out and hurridly scheduled his speech to preempt Cheney’s. The POTUS was defensive and clearly lost that battle for gitmo.
As for our “ambassadors”. An ambassador is the highest ranking diplomat who represents his or her country in a foreign land. If an ambassador from the US went to russia and said “hey screw the U.S. you guys have got it right” and proceded to deride the POTUS, congress, and the citizens of the U.S. he would be dragged back here, have his kiddie balls crushed by that meanie Cheney and thrown into the locker room with you and Frum. Dont pretend to know who we consider our ambassadors. They believe in Life, Liberty(read freedom for the slow), and the Pursuit of Happiness. Limited government, free market principles, and a strong national defense. I’d keep going but we’re already into ideals that are foreign to you.
*pat*pat* “here’s the new millenium falcon lego set Islamo, go meet up with your buddy frum in the back room and let the adults talk”.
Before any of us begins to feel sorry for Frum, consider the following.
This guy went off after Governor Sarah Palin in a way that no gentleman would.
But beyond that, he went off after her in a way that indicated that she never had a chance with him, he never considered in good faith, which means he dismissed her because of where she came from, what colleges she didn’t attend, what church she preferred.
He bashed her as a yahoo, but went to bat for Romney, when he wrote that regarding the tenets of Mormonism that Romney subscribed to, “we couldn’t go there” in assessing what kind of mind the man had. But Frum demonstrated no such hesitation or forebearance when it came to Sarah Palin.
Consider too Frum’s hyperbolic attack on Rush’s personal life, which never shoudl have been brought up.
Consider too Frum’s weird attempt at getting his 15 year old son on the phone. That was clearly some little gambit that father and son had worked out beforehand, and was an attempt to ambush Mark Levin on the air, ——————– hardly playing it straight there now was he.
Lastly, there is clear evidence that does more than suggest that Frum is tryinng to create a profitable niche for himself by attacking Conservatives, and effective and known Conservatives t that.
If Frum is suffering now, if he is going through personal anguish, ——————- did he ever consider what he and his ilk were putting Sarah Palin through, and her family. Frum, though but a year ago I wouldn’t have thought this possible to say, needs to be crushed, and his voice needs to be stilled.
Purge him.
Thanks, Dan. Please see the fan site post (linked at my name).
What a Greek tragedy .. complete with city-states .. this has become.
I keep waiting for the “grown-ups” to arrive and get this straightened out, but alas, they are dead, retired or have already figured out that public service doesn’t pay enough unless you descend to the level of the John Murtha-s of the world.
So we get the amateurs, like Frum, who push their way to the front of the line, telling us that we have to be more like those we disagree with rather than standing by any principles that have formed our character and our lives.
Dan,
It is usually not a good sign when you feel a need to preemptively make apologies for a guest poster. But I can see why you felt that need. Mark Levin is so very angry. Those of us who take part in the blogosphere quickly develop the ability to keep a cool head, even when being attacked. It allows us to advance conversations, rather than hastening their devolution into nasty name calling. It would be nice if when Mr. Levin got frustrated, he found the capacity to continue making cogent points, rather than getting himself so worked up that he lashes out like some kind of wannabe Keith Olbermann. It does damage to the right when one of its best selling authors conducts himself like an attack dog.
And apart from this response to Frum’s latest ramblings, today will be like all other days. I will go on the air and talk with millions of listeners and Frum will write to himself on his own website.
This is what really drives Frum nutty. The truth.
Mark is honest. Not everyone likes that and I can understand were the rub comes in. When you stroll around with rose colored glasses on sipping kool-aid, the truth about (Obama,The Government,acorn,Gitmo,stimulus)gets in the way.
“– Frum is a resident scholar not a “senior fellow”. That’s like saying you’re a Head Coach in the NFL when in reality you’re a Place Kicker’s Coach…. You may be involved in the organization but when you tell the Head Coach he should “go for it” on 4th and 12 on your own 2 yd line he just pats you on the head and sends you back to the locker room to play with your legos. Mark Levin just sent Frum back to the locker room. –”
“– Not once did Dick talk about crushing dicks….even the little ones(projection much?) –”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-seery/testicles_b_109687.html
“– On December 1, 2005, Yoo notoriously contended in a public debate that the legality of crushing a child’s testicles “depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.” Yesterday John Conyers tried to ask Yoo point-blank about that claim in that 2005 debate, namely whether Yoo still believes “that the President can order that a suspect’s child be tortured in gruesome fashion.” –”
I won’t bore you with the details of the John Yoo, Dick Cheney link. Needless to say, Cheney is a hard and fast supporter of the torture first, torture last, and torture always school of foreign policy. And it was John Yoo’s torture doctrine that Cheney was defending.
“–And if you were even remotely honest you would know and state that Cheney’s speech wasn’t the counter point to O(shit)’s. But that O’dopey ran out and hurridly scheduled his speech to preempt Cheney’s. The POTUS was defensive and clearly lost that battle for gitmo. –”
Haha. Sure thing, ace. The bill lined up before Congress funding the closing of the Gitmo prison had absolutely nothing to do with the President’s speech. He just heard Cheney was yapping his yap and had to get out in front of it. Or something. Cause and effect were never friends of conservative logic. :-p
“– As for our “ambassadors”. An ambassador is the highest ranking diplomat who represents his or her country in a foreign land. If an ambassador from the US went to russia and said “hey screw the U.S. you guys have got it right” and proceded to deride the POTUS, congress, and the citizens of the U.S. he would be dragged back here, have his kiddie balls crushed by that meanie Cheney and thrown into the locker room with you and Frum. Dont pretend to know who we consider our ambassadors. They believe in Life, Liberty(read freedom for the slow), and the Pursuit of Happiness. Limited government, free market principles, and a strong national defense. I’d keep going but we’re already into ideals that are foreign to you. –”
And nothing says “Limited Government” like extra-legal wiretapping, trillions in tax dollars spent on invading a third world country, cooking up Unitary Executive Theories, and opening prisons in Communist island nations to evade Constitutional boundaries.
Maybe that Pursuit of Happiness just doesn’t kick in until you’re smashing some kid’s nuts while screaming, “I’m Jack Bauer bitch!” So I’ll spot you that. Or maybe all that bullshit about how much you love America boils down to another round of Tea Bagger tax protests. How many civil rights would you give up for another 5% of the capital gains rate?
“– *pat*pat* “here’s the new millenium falcon lego set Islamo, go meet up with your buddy frum in the back room and let the adults talk” –”
Star Wars reference? I guess I’ll have to concede this round to you, JDM. There’s nothing I can say that will compete with “Oh yeah! Well you play with LEGOs!” as a retort.
Coner (with one N), Dan didn’t make an apology though I can see how you would project that from your own sad life, he issued a disclaimer. Big difference. And it was mostly about how irrational your pal David Frum is in his post. Thanks for playing but you Fail.
Mark is mean? No, the salient point is that Frum is mean, which means that somewhere in his little peabrain he recognizes that you don’t win fights with nice. While simultaneously arguing that you should do exactly that.
and Coner (with one N), what “does damage to the right” are lily livered RINO’s like yourself pretending you are smart enough to tell everyone else in the R party how to act, think or vote. You and your pals should start a club, like the Micky Mouse club.
Palin 2012
is this the mark levin you guys are talking about?
http://pssht.com/fauxnews/biolevin.html
The thing to remember about Frum is during the early part of the administration he was the staffter who went around publicly claiming credit for the “axis of evil” section of his post-9/11 speech. Which reportedly helped get him ushered out of the administration.
So what drives Frum in large part is that he desperately wants to be a high-profile shaper of Republican policy — and wants the credit for it. So if you’re trying to lead the party in one direction and a large group is not following, it makes it a lot more difficult to become a famous shaper of worlds (which is different from a dispute over ideology — Frum’s perfectly entitled to that, but not to the tantrums he throws at people who don’t think the way he does).
Levin 1
Frum 0
@ john
Doesn’t surprise me that the first person to stoop so low in their post is someone who is attacking Levin.
Although one can say that IslamoLlama was first.
“Its such a strange sight to see the real meanness in the republican party turned inwards.”
As opposed to the unity and highmindedness of the Democrats, I suppose.
Have fun keeping track of all your scandals. We are.
Frum , looks like a twerp, acts like a Nancy-girl, is about as Conservative as Pelosi, and has yet to indicate any intellectual heft worth Mark’s time!!Frum, needs to go with C.Powell, to the Demonrat party …..SOOOON !!
“It is usually not a good sign when you feel a need to preemptively make apologies for a guest poster.”
It’ll be okay, Conor. Here’s a Band-Aid and a fruit roll-up. Now quit blubbering and go back to your coloring books.
Posted by: IslamoLlama | Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 12:54 PM
So.. you are actually defending the WB treatment of KSM and two others?
For all of the newbies out there please just refer to IslamoLlama as Lame-O.
It is much easier when dealing with the resident trolls to keep it simple! (unlike Lame-O’s typical long winded posts)
About time for another lame ass “Shorter Dan” comment Lame-O!!!
Come on Dallas time for another bitch slapping session don’t ya think?
“No social ties with anyone outside his family and pets”
Well, we listeners know that Mark hangs out with his good friends Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. Sean was even at one of Mark’s (there were only two) book signings, so that saying more than Frum can. Mark is choosy in who his friends are and with whom he associates with, who can fault him for that? In general, it sounds like Mark is a private person with few, but close, friends.
David is friends with whomever will return his phone calls, I imagine.
If Frum is a conservative, why is he working so hard at being an Obama-loving liberal? He’s the divisive one, not Limbaugh or Levin. What conservatives want is a Republican party with true conservative principles.
How fidgety did that Frum guy sound?…and the platitudes?…now there’s some fresh ideas for ya…pfff.
The fact the he didn’t pick up on Rush’s mock presidential address comment should end this debate and solidify Frum as an idiot.
Frum’s lack on influence/backbone only leaves him to put himself out there with and “Im civilized, I’m above it all,” attitude that always ends up sacrificing conservative principles and concedes time and time again to the likes of Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Dodd, obama- the ones that are destroying our country- absolutely destroying!
Mr Frum, if you treated the out of control media and the Libs the same way you treated your own we would get somewhere.(Levin fights for us, you concede for us…bottom line.) The key is to blow the whistle on the absolute hijacking that is going on, not stab your own in the back.
would people please read Conscience of a Conservative by Goldwater and understand how important it is to stand up against these gelatinous republicans like Frum and some of these others nobodies.
A conservative from Canada is politically similar to Bill Clinton. As Gutfeld might say, “Triangulate away, Triangulators!” This Republican bloodletting is long overdue and we need to rid oursleves of the Frum’s in the world. They’re responsible for Dole, McCain, and even, to an extent, George W. Bush. Any calls for civility need to be blatantly ignored. I want to see Levin pick them all off. That particular call was not for the first time Levin listener and it was cherry-picked by these trolls to smear him. Well I’m sorry, but the man was right. Occasionally, you ride on the edge of your sanity to even converse with these idiots that just don’t get it. Thank God for his brand of humor on our side of the aisle. Where was the outrage from the Frums of the right when Palin was being ripped to shreds? Oh wait, he was on MSNBC with Peggy Noonan joining in! We truly do need to wake the hell up. Why did Frum leave out the following exchange when quoting the C-SPAN interview?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
LAMB: You do have names for a lot of people.
LEVIN: I do, I try to humiliate as many hard left types as I possibly can.
LAMB: Why?
LEVIN: Because humiliation is very effective, and from my point of view, we’re playing for keeps. And I’m writing a book now I’m not supposed to talk about called ”Liberty and Tyranny,” and I see what the toke (ph) will talk about this soft tyranny starting to bubble up. The attacks on talk radio, the promotion of the fairness doctrine we’re hearing about in Congress, the attacks on free speech in the sense of these political campaigns, demands that the justice department investigate private groups who want to run ads that disagree with you and mention Bill Ayres, and so forth. These are extremely dangerous times if you believe in liberty and limited government.
So I have to draw an audience and keep an audience, otherwise I’m talking to myself. And so I need to say things in ways that resonate, and to me that helps. And I’ll tell you something else, all these people want to steal my liberty, and the liberty of many of your viewers. They build up this cocoon around them, like they’re supposed to be taken extremely seriously, that they’re very serious people, and they’re out there talking for the little guy, and the middle class, and the children, and all they want is what’s good for us. Well, I got to peel that back, their little PR types and all the other propaganda that they’ve built around them, I got to cut through all that clutter, and that’s one of the ways I do it.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
So you see, he cherry-picked Levin again. Right there he, in no uncertain terms, explains the rationale for his style of handling people. So yeah, if that was your first time listening to Levin you may have been a bit shocked. If it wasn’t, you would have heard a man that is tremendously scared for his country rebuking the very sort of individual that is responsible for our predicament. The difference is, Levin would never take aim at a true conservative. God bless that man and shame on any blog that doesn’t ride to his defense (cough, HotAir, cough).
In Frum’s “honor” (and in “honor” of another David, Brooks), I have named those MSM “house” conservatives, who go out of their way to show Massa ‘Bama they ain’t one of them uppity conservatives who threaten the Plantation, “Uncle Daves.”
I´m really torn here. I am a regular listener of the Mark Levin show, I enjoy his arguments, usually agree with him; I sent money to his legal foundation. I also feel that he is sometimes over the top. I understand where he´s coming from, but in these cases it just makes me cringe. Displaying hatefulness or bitterness dimishes anyone, just as it dimishes David Frum. To show that there is another way, an equally principled conservative like Dennis Prager is not interested in just preaching to the converted. Like Levin, Prager will patiently explain his principles but he never humiliates liberal listeners even as he takes them down. I think he is probably more effective in convincing to those who are on the fence. In the end, everyone has his own style and that´s ok.
I also am not on board with the personal attacks on David Frum. Though I frequently disagree with him, Frum can be thoughtful and he has some good practical policy ideas. That´s important because you don´t win elections by harping about your principles; in reality people want to know what you are going to do (for them).
The one thing that I cannot forgive him for is that he repeatedly goes out of his way to attack conservatives in public instead of simply expressing his disagreements in a more constructive manner.
And he diminished himself by doing that, but in his case it goes beyond style. This is the fight that Obama wanted the conservative side to have and Frum indulged him. That was a huge disappointment for me – the stupidity of it! – and even though I´m presumably his target audience it kept me from reading or signing up for his website.
“– So.. you are actually defending the WB treatment of KSM and two others? –”
Um… where did I say that?
“Um… where did I say that?”
Yeah, I’m not sure how Dave C extrapolated anything quite so coherent from that deranged mess you posted.
Llama, quoting from the nutball Huffington Post is not exactly drawing from an unimpeachable source. That article is grotesquely tilted to make Yoo look bad by forcing him to discuss issues that had no place in reality in their hypothetical legal context. That is utterly meaningless in terms of what was really discussed in determining what could and could not be done. Please show me the slightest shred of evidence that the US ever inflicted harm on the family of a prisoner, or even threatened to do so in a believable fashion.
What an as& kicking…yet again! This monkey-looking creep has a pennant for large-audience humiliation. I would hate to be him – desperate, lonely, looking to get attention, and knowing deep down that all these leftists inviting him to their shows are using him as a tool to bash the right.
God bless Levin, Limpaw, and Hannity.
Frum is dumb, but Levin is just as bad. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard him respond to criticism with “X criticized me on his show/blog today. I don’t know who X is and never read his blog or watch/listen to his show.” Inevtiably Levin will respond with a put down that because he doesn’t read the person, he must be worthless.
I generally don’t listen to talk radio, but I don’t mind Rush – he can be entertaining. Same with some of the others. I can’t stand Levin though. I once listened to him rant for 20 minutes at least about his trip to Disney. On second thought, that’s all he ever does when I hear him – rant. He seems like a perpetually unhappy person.
El Gordo,
You write: “The one thing that I cannot forgive him for is that he repeatedly goes out of his way to attack conservatives in public instead of simply expressing his disagreements in a more constructive manner.”
Speaking generally, rather than about the particular case of David Frum, I fail to understand why conservatives who disagree with one another should try to hide that fact. Surely the right should be confident enough to engage one another’s ideas in public forms. What harm does that actually cause? It isn’t as if Americans are scouring political blogs for signs that people under the conservative tent disagree with one another — it’s obvious that every ideological movement contains disagreement.
The process of taking it over in public acts as a crucible, testing ideas, destroying the worst, and strengthening the best. In other words, it makes for a leaner, stronger, more agile conservative movement, whereas stifling dissent and papering over disagreements leads to — well, to a Democratic president and a Senate ready to pass his agenda.
Levinite,
You seem to be asserting that the caller that Levin excoriated was a hard left type. What is your evidence for that? She hardly even said anything on the air. And what on earth did she say that threatens our country? Mark Levin agrees with the caller’s stated position — that President Obama possesses the power to transfer Gitmo detainees to the United States.
Cornhole Friedersdork,
in your words,
“Destroying the worst” – You and your ilk
“Strengthening the best” – People who believe in fighting and not conceding to Statist agenda.
Personal attacks on Frum are cause of he’s such a flaky annoying phony person, Mr. Gordo. It goes with the territory he’s staked out. It’s like Meghan McCain or David Brooth or Peggy Noonan or that Kathleen somebody what the Washington Post likes to rub our noses in. Tools. I wish misfortune upon them.
“He seems like a perpetually unhappy person.”
Whereas you’re a regular font of joy.
“I fail to understand why conservatives who disagree with one another should try to hide that fact.”
It’s sometimes interesting to get the perspective of a complete outsider. That is, when the complete outsider is somewhat less tedious than Conor Friedersdorf.
“You seem to be asserting that the caller that Levin excoriated was a hard left type. What is your evidence for that?”
She was crowing that Obama is going to be able to do whatever he wants, no matter the effect on the country, and there’s nothing Levin can do about it. Do you imagine she has a Reagan poster over her bed, genius?
Levinite,
The fact that someone explains their style doesn’t make it defensible — just openly wrongheaded, as opposes to surreptitiously so.
The quality of the logic in the arguments employed by Mr. Levin’s listeners really is a testament to the low bar he sets.
And it was this unhinged, emotional outburst that caught my attention.
This is what Levin does for a living.
Conor,
“The quality of the logic in the arguments employed by Mr. Levin’s listeners really is a testament to the low bar he sets.”
I think that comment is quite revealing. My point was only to parallel another person’s point on Dreher’s blog:
“If 15 minutes is all it takes to take the full measure of a man then we would have a better president.”
Now you’re slinging mud at Levin’s millions of listeners? Your superiority complex knows no bounds. Please, tell me how many times your buddies have called (___pick_a_nutroot___) disgusting? Aside from Dreher’s hard-hitting posts like “Pity Rachel Maddow” and “2 Girls, 1 Cup, 0 Boundaries”, I am having a hard time finding where any of you have titled a post “The Disgusting Keith Olbermann” or “The minor tragedy of Chris Matthews”. Levin has been syndicated since 2003 (I think). I have been listening to him since 2006. Let’s suppose I grant you the premise that it was a disgusting comment. I cannot think of any other comments of his that really came close to that. Only until recently, when Levin finally took on Frum, did I hear anyone from the supposed right-wing blogosphere complain about him or really even mention him. Why is that? Becuase he came to the defense of his dear friend, Rush Limbaugh? Rush, by the way, was quite personally and nastily attacked by Frum. Why have you not admonished Frum’s comment about Limbaugh? I’m guessing because you agree.
“With his private plane and his cigars, his history of drug dependency and his personal bulk, not to mention his tangled marital history, Rush is a walking stereotype of self-indulgence.”
Regardless of your opinion, Mark is clearly a brilliant legal mind. He served in the upper-echelons of the Reagan administration and he resonates with more people in one night than you will probably be read by in your entire life. I am not trying to diminish you with that tidbit, because the same statement applies to me. I am just trying to illustrate that there may be more to the man than you are taking into account. It may be your opinion that Mark Levin should not be a standard bearer for conservatives. You are entitled to that opinion. You are even welcome to hate the man if it suits you. The point Mark attempted to make to Frum during their debate and the point that any of us quasi-logical pitbulls agree upon, is that you folks are taking aim at the wrong team and too often.
If you want to marginalize Levin, you would be better off doing so by attracting a larger audience with your style than crapping on his entire body of work over a single lowsy comment he made in the heat of the moment. Maybe you would prefer to not measure success by audience size? Convenient, but okay. So then still consider keeping your gun pointed down or towards the enemy when you’re debating the battle plan amongst your supposed teammates. Many of us feel that your faction’s method of being passive-aggressive and openly introspective ala candidates like McCain is why we are off the rails. Many are of the opinion that someone willing to fiercly battle our opponents is better suited to lead us back to the forefront. Many of us feel that, as power is being expeditiously usurped and the constitution is being trampled upon, the ends justify the means and it is okay to occasionally mis-speak. What you think is wrong-headed seems to be quite effective on many fronts. That would make your assertion subjective. Until we adopt some of the enemies current and fruitful tactics, how are we to do battle? You really need to read Alinsky to grasp what we are up against. Have you? Doubtful.
Bottom-line: agree or disagree with the methods of a fellow conservative, but consider stopping short when your disagreement turns to loud vocal opposition that serves as nothing but more of the same hate Rush, hate Bush, and, suddenly, hate Levin fodder that the left craves.
“If you want to marginalize Levin, you would be better off doing so by attracting a larger audience with your style than crapping on his entire body of work over a single lowsy comment he made in the heat of the moment.”
But I haven’t crapped on his entire body of work.
I’ve criticized one fifteen minute segment.
I concede that it doesn’t necessarily reflect Mr. Levin’s larger body of work — but I maintain that it is nevertheless wrongheaded, and it is weird that so many are so determined to defend it, as if a man who they normally find correct must ALWAYS be correct.
I don’t see anyone here claiming that he is always correct. I am simply attempting to convey my stated “bottom-line”. I think that we all would like to stop the in-fighting and redirect our efforts elsewhere.
Frum occasionally shows up on liberal “news” programs sitting in the chair reserved for the reasonable conservative puppet. He attracted my attention by insulting Sarah Palin, thereby giving himself away as an emotionally weak dirt bag, and gaining a liberal fan club.
Levinite,
Commenters here are acting as though Mr. Levin’s general track record refutes my specific criticism of him.
Well I guess that its easy to single out one comment of millions the man has made to justify your holier than thou attitude Conor. If you had to listen to all the insipid,ignorant,brain dead comments and arguments Mark has had to endure all these years you yourself might go off once in a while. But being the superior mind that you claim to be I guess thats just not concievable ,,Asshat
PS: Way to draw a crowd to the comments Dan. Usually its 10 and out around here.
To most everyone on here except Conor: I suggest we officially designate Conor as a troll. He and his Vichy Repubs have now achieved the attention they crave, none of which is deserved. The guy is dying to keep this discussion going to feed his ego and superiority complex. Don’t feed the trolls! Let Conor starve in his little echo-chamber and room of mirrors. What a putz.
Conor,
Why would it be strange that fans of the man and his body of work/efforts for conservatism over decades are coming to his defense? Again, no one said he is infallible. We’re just reacting in accordance with the fairly normal practice of defending someone we know and trust against someone we don’t know so well. I don’t know how many ways there are to iterate my point. I think that any addiitonal astonishment with the defense of Levin’s one comment is either designed to draw silly/angry defenses to further substantiate your smear of the man’s audience or because you just like to fuel conflict. At this point, we’re just going in circles. As I see it, you may either choose to let this pass and refocus on the people really destroying our country or further alienate yourself from a group of staunch conservatives that are sitting up and listening now. Just think, if you choose the former, the latter may actually consider your thoughts and writings over the long-term. I would also consider listening to Levin more. You may not agree with him or his methods, but I think you will find that he has an overwhelmingly positive message and that he also has a well earned place in the big tent that Reagan envisioned.
Levinite hit it right on the head. If Conor and Frum et al expect to gain any legitimacy with the base on the right, they ought to spend at least as much time (if not MUCH more time) criticizing the opposition as they do the standardbearers of those with which they claim to be on the same side.
See, Conor, that sort of makes it obvious to us all what your real intentions are. It’s not all that complicated.
Levinite,
It is interesting how you site Reagan’s big tent when the vast majority of commenter’s here, Dan and Mark Levin himself have been doing everything possible to drive people away that aren’t in lock step with every single thing they believe.
That big tent is getting smaller each and every day, and that only empowers people like Obama, Pelosi and Reid to make the changes that will slowly be the death of America.
Well done.
Jamie,
I dunno. It kind of feels like you are nit picking. I can’t speak for Dan, but I can say that Mark Levin by no means “does everything possible to drive people aware that aren’t in lock step with his every belief”. That’s painting with a pretty broad brush and it tends to expose you as having not listened to Levin for any reasonable length of time. If you had, you would notice that when a liberal caller has any common ground with Mark, Mark tends to ease up and reason with them. Also, Mark was extremely neutral during the primary process and he did back McCain in the end; albeit begrudgingly.
I’m really uncertain which part of Levin’s philosophy deviates from that of our founders but, even if there are a few, you would find that the conservative principles Mark excoriates other self-proclaimed conservatives for lacking are absolutely required for one to call themself a conservative. I think he gives people a pretty fair shake and he all but refuses to call people out until he is up against a wall.
I’m sorry, but I do not see how playing identity politics, moderating our positions/tone, and playing with the language is going to bring us back to life. I don’t think by big tent, Reagan meant that we should sell-out to capture the fairweather states in the North East. If we were to have a strategic “big tent”, I think the responsibility lies in representing the majority of the Republican electorate. Maybe your definition of “big tent” does not mean excluding anyone, but I am certain that we need to return to a candidate like Reagan. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that I have a sneaking suspiscion that Frum and Noonan would be doing the same thing to Reagan that they did to Palin would he be resurrected.
Isn’t David Frum Drehner’s pool boy?
Grrr…my last comment to Jamie was lost.
Who the hell is this federalistpaupers and her strawman arguments? There is no one trying to “drive people away that aren’t in lock step with every single thing they believe” Every single thing? No. Weeding out you RINO’s yes. Consider yourself driven away.
Palin 2012
So Jamie is a dude. Congrats on having balls, now pull them out and direct your snark at the other side. The Dhimmmicrats. And James, “site Reagan” should be ‘cite’ Reagan. Details, details.
IslamoLlama,
“”– On December 1, 2005, Yoo notoriously contended in a public debate that the legality of crushing a child’s testicles “depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.” Yesterday John Conyers tried to ask Yoo point-blank about that claim in that 2005 debate, namely whether Yoo still believes “that the President can order that a suspect’s child be tortured in gruesome fashion.” –”
I won’t bore you with the details of the John Yoo, Dick Cheney link. Needless to say, Cheney is a hard and fast supporter of the torture first, torture last, and torture always school of foreign policy. And it was John Yoo’s torture doctrine that Cheney was defending.”
Here’s the complete quote, not your “Frum-unda” style cherry picking.
“In several public fora heretofore, Yoo has insisted that no law — neither domestic nor international — prevents the president from authorizing the crushing of a child’s testicles or the raping of an infant as a way of exerting pressure upon a terrorist suspect.
On December 1, 2005, Yoo notoriously contended in a public debate that the legality of crushing a child’s testicles “depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.” Yesterday John Conyers tried to ask Yoo point-blank about that claim in that 2005 debate, namely whether Yoo still believes “that the President can order that a suspect’s child be tortured in gruesome fashion.”
So as you can see Yoo was arguing to the legality of the point not the morality. Some would say they are intrinsically linked and yet the courts would disagree. Bringing into the debate a hypothetical makes you seem disingenuous and invalidates that whole line of argument. BUT for arguments sake if Big Bad Cheney was the “hard and fast supporter of the torture first, torture last, and torture always school of foreign policy”, you’d have a hard time convincing many people other than the most retarded(that was my obama shout out)of that. If he were in fact as you claim, we’d have over 5000 individuals that would be claiming such tactics happened to them.
Thousands of detainees have merely been questioned and released. Others subjected to…. more flowery(?) versions of interrogation and the 3 (yup you can count em on one hand) who had been thru the harsher interrogations. If you wanna call it torture go for it, I don’t give a damn. I’ve been thru waterboarding and it’s a motherf*cker. I wouldn’t wish it on any of my friends or family…. but the *sshole that’s trying to kill me on the battlefield…. eh, let him sit thru it a cpl times. He can behead me when I get caught and we’ll call it even… will you?
“Haha. Sure thing, ace. The bill lined up before Congress funding the closing of the Gitmo prison had absolutely nothing to do with the President’s speech. He just heard Cheney was yapping his yap and had to get out in front of it. Or something. Cause and effect were never friends of conservative logic. :-p”
Since we’ve apparently developed enough of a relationship to have pet names for each other…. Hahhah. Sure thing, chief. The President has been “yapping” his yap for over a year talking up his closing gitmo. He sprinted with his staff to preempt Cheney and EVERYONE knows it. When is the last time Obama had a speech that we didn’t know about for three or four days in advance? How’s this for cause and effect? Cheney starts making a sh*t ton of headway in the debate and blamo! Obama has a close gitmo/”torture bad” speech. How’s that illogic logic working out for you?
“And nothing says “Limited Government” like extra-legal wiretapping, trillions in tax dollars spent on invading a third world country, cooking up Unitary Executive Theories, and opening prisons in Communist island nations to evade Constitutional boundaries.
Maybe that Pursuit of Happiness just doesn’t kick in until you’re smashing some kid’s nuts while screaming, “I’m Jack Bauer bitch!” So I’ll spot you that. Or maybe all that bullshit about how much you love America boils down to another round of Tea Bagger tax protests. How many civil rights would you give up for another 5% of the capital gains rate?”
And there you go again cherry picking one phrase from one sentence to argue… maybe that’s all your libtard brain could handle.
“Extra legal wiretapping”? Yeah, wiretapping incoming transmissions from suspected foreign terrorists is bad idea(like i said, MORON)
Spending trillions to “invade”…. 10 years of ignoring your o so magnificent UN, harboring terrorists and murding 10′s of thousands of civilians. You’re right we shoulda just let him be. (PS get this, they did have WMD’s!! Just not to the extent that we believed.)
“cooking up Unitary Executive Theories”. I think if you look at it the theories already existed and the Bush admin just utilized it like no one had before and because the new democratic congress didn’t agree with it they flew off the handle claiming “usurpatory executive branch” mumbo jumbo.
“Opening prisons in communist…..” Well we have occupied(rented) that land for over 100 years(it’s ours forever if we want) so in as much as you may not like how the president did what he did, it falls under your previous argument of a unitary executive.
And then there’s your ignorant statement about my personal politics. You have no idea where I stand when it comes to civil liberties and govermental constitutional authority. But since you cant formulate a coherent thougt lemme help you. Government has grown exponentially in the last 30 years and continues to do so. I believe the founders would have started (or at least approved of) a new revolution. I believe that dems and repubs of late have been remiss in their duties to the PEOPLE of these United States. I think the government is here to make sure that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is available to all. I dont think we need half the gov’t we’ve got. We could and should make do with a strong military, solid police and first responder services, and a SMALL allocation for education and infrastructure. I could go on and on with my “neocon manifesto” (that’ll be how you portray me anyway). But alas it’s friday and i’m gonna go crush me some testicles!
I AM Jack Bauer!!!! *SMASH*
Forget, please, “conservatism.” It has been, operationally, de facto, Godless and therefore irrelevant. Secular conservatism will not defeat secular liberalism because to God both are two atheistic peas-in-a-pod and thus predestined to failure. As Stonewall Jackson’s Chief of Staff R.L. Dabney said of such a humanistic belief more than 100 years ago:
“[Secular conservatism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today .one of the accepted principles of conservatism; it is now conservative only in affecting to resist the next innovation, which will tomorrow be forced upon its timidity and will be succeeded by some third revolution; to be denounced and then adopted in its turn. American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition. It remains behind it, but never retards it, and always advances near its leader. This pretended salt bath utterly lost its savor: wherewith shall it be salted? Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth.”
Our country is collapsing because we have turned our back on God (Psalm 9:17) and refused to kiss His Son (Psalm 2).
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
PS – And “Mr. Worldly Wiseman” Rush Limbaugh never made a bigger ass of himself than at CPAC where he told that blasphemous “joke” about himself and God.
If you’ve never heard of Frum, it explains why you are acting like such mouth breathers.
Mark Levin does a high-pitched whine, with the words “Marxist” and “Constitution” thrown in sporadically, and makes zero arguments in half an hour, and you wonder why we’re losing. Levin adds nothing, and this is a weak attempt to defend him.
Want to debate Frum? He’s extremely well-read and well-versed, so I’d love to see that.
LEVIN VS FRUM: RIGHT VS WRONG
David Frum’s problem is that he has an unfounded confidence in Barack Obama and the Democrats. He foolishly believes that this man and his left leaning party are going to endure in power like FDR and the Democrats of his time. Frum is 1000% wrong! Before he even took office Obama had tragedy, misfortune and failure written all over him. From the day Obama was born, 67 days into JFK’s 44th year, he was doomed to lead our country into peril and suffer a disastrous fall*. The Magical Mystery Tour of the 08 campaign is now the Great Democratic Train Wreck of 2012. Obama is LBJ and Jimmy Carter combined with a little JFK thrown in. Stick to your principles! Don’t despair! God and history are on our side! Google ApolloSpeaks and read, The Death of Madelyn Durham and Barack Obama: Transformational President or Fortune’s Tragic Fool, for inspiration and insight.
*Obama and the Kennedy Clan will be the subject of an upcoming work: Barack Obama, the Kennedy Curse and the Fatal Star of Socialism